Should the Garmin Panoptix be outlawed in tournaments?

[SHaRPS]

Tournament fishing has no allure to me regardless of prizes offered. Personally I just don't get all het up. About fishing on a schedule . I am competitive only to the point.
This is your opinion and I respect that 100%. But is enjoying a bass tourney a bad thing? No two people are alike and some mans trash is another mans treasure

 Bass tournaments do not prove who the best fishermen. If they included all types like live bait and trolling. Then yes. Walleye tournaments to me prove more as there or no restrictions of methods. What all tournaments are designed to do is SELL, SELL,SELL.
Yes they do. Winner THAT DAY takes home $$. If you belong to a club, its based on numbers and averages throughout the season. If over 15 tourneys you catch the most respectable bags throughout, you are definitely elite in the field that you competed in. Just like a batting average in baseball and goal average in hockey.  Every sport has parameters even Walleye tournaments that allow live bait. Bass tourneys are designed to be artificial lures only (though there are bass tourneys that allow live bait). It can be much more difficult to catch bass with artificials only vs live bait. Anyone can chuck a shiner into Lilly pads and get a bite, not so easy when you have to figure out what the hot lure of the day is. I can name the legal allowed live baits in my state with 7 fingers. There are thousands of options when choosing artificials. And finally, not all tournaments are designed to sell. I do not even know what you mean by that. All of the bass tourneys I have been in were designed to help out the state team (10-20% of tourney entries for state team traveling/lodging fees) or they are memorials helping out families in need or for a cause like leukemia and cancer. In my books, thats a win win win win for me. I love to fish, I am competitive, I have a chance to win money, and entry fee is helping someone out in need. I have never been sold anything at a bass tourney and bass tourneys do not make me buy goods that i would not use any other day while fishing for fun or relaxation.

[eriksat1]

I just dropped $1,600 on a Helix 10 for the boat this past summer. Can't see a panoptix in the near future for me. I might see what I can do with side imaging through the ice with it just for fun. Most ice fishing tournaments I have been to were no more than big social gatherings with lots of drinking involved. If you caught fish you caught fish, most top prizes were in the form of a raffle, keeps the cheating down.

[hnd]

watching guys drive around 10 thousand dollar sleds and 4 wheelers hauling what appears to be another 10k in gear, loading them into their 60k trucks and trailers, i'd say the money bug has already hit the world of NAIFC and other circuits.  guys in 5k pickups, big reds, and old FL8's compete already and do quite well.  I don't think a 1500 dollar piece of electronics is going to set the field back

[KinnickResident]

Here's the way I look at electronics...

I want to buy the best gear (that I can afford) up to the point where it stops catching me more fish. Everything else is creature comforts

For me, that's an FL-18 (just what I have, I'm not biased against Marcum or Garmin), tungsten jigs, and micro plastics. Those are, to me, the biggest game changers in ice fishing and the items that I can say have helped me catch more fish.

As far as the FL-18 I feel that a bottom zoom of some sort is a necessity for the 95% of fishing I do (bluegill, perch, crappie). Catching fish is easier with it than my FL-8 was. I personally don't see an improvement in catch rate from adjustable zoom, auto range, different colors, brushless motors, etc. I can afford an LX-7 or FL-28, but I wouldn't get additional benefit out of it for the fishing I do and where I do it.

Tungsten jigs are smaller per mass and help get jigs back to the bottom faster, and they show up better on sonar.

Micro plastics since I've forced myself to use them have definite advantages in durability, price per fish caught, and availability. After learning to use them I catch fish when live bait doesn't and I never have the problem of "needing meat." That's a fallacy made up by people who are afraid of trying it.

As far as the Panoptix goes, I think people complicate it too much. It only takes one question to ask yourself personally...

Do you with your present setup struggle to catch your limit of fish (if keeping) or catching enough fish to keep you active throughout the day?

Me personally, I live near the IGL and am surrounded by literally hundreds of farm ponds and small lakes that all have thriving panfish and walleye populations. Hundreds of limits come out of IGL every day with guys using Showdowns, FL-8s and sight fishing. A Panoptix can't hardly be cheating in a tournament if there are guys around you catching more fish with less equipment. Myself fishing for panfish where I do, spending $1,800 would do no good because it's already more than I can keep. If you live in a place where fish are hard to find on a lake I could see it helping, but is setting up a Panoptix monstrosity any faster or more effective than a guy punching holes with a flasher? Like one poster above mentioned, a Panoptix is more of a pain in the ass to set up than a camera and you never see those at a tournament either.

The Panoptix in my mind is for two types of people...

1) Technophiles who like to play with new gadgets and can afford them.

2) People who aren't super skilled and think they would gain an easy edge.

Basically it boils down to accepting that if you got beat in a tournament with a guy using a Panoptix you were going to get beat anyway. Learn your electronics and the bodies of water you fish. There's no easier way.

[Gunflint]

As far as the Panoptix goes, I think people complicate it too much. It only takes one question to ask yourself personally...

Do you with your present setup struggle to catch your limit of fish (if keeping) or catching enough fish to keep you active throughout the day?

I think I respectfully will add another question to ask yourself personally - "Is it more fun to catch more fish?"  I believe that my answer to this question is, "More and larger is more fun." While I normally catch my limits, throwing even more back would increase the fun.

[KinnickResident]

I think I respectfully will add another question to ask yourself personally - "Is it more fun to catch more fish?"  I believe that my answer to this question is, "More and larger is more fun." While I normally catch my limits, throwing even more back would increase the fun.

So are you not able to do that with your current electronics?

[Gunflint]

So are you not able to do that with your current electronics?

I am sure I catch more fish on my current electronics that I would without them. My hope/goal is to catch even more and larger ones with better electronics.

The more the merrier.

[Evinrude58]

Now this was back 30 years ago when I was stationed in Texas. A buddy and I showed up at a lake where they were getting ready to start a Bass tourney. Since we fished the lake regulary we asked if we could join. The guys running it were ok with it but said that all (50) teams had to agree. They all said ok so we paid the $100 entry fee (assume they figured ours was free money as we weren't equipped with as nice of stuff). I believe it started at 7am and ended at 4 or 5pm. When it came to weigh-in we did pretty good and came in third (bit of skill and some good luck). Then the objections started. Teams said we couldn't win as we weren't using a real boat which allowed us access to areas they couldn't get to, we had a rubber raft. They said we weren't using proper propulsion, we had a set of oars and a beach towel we used as a sort of sail. They said we weren't legal as we had no live well, we were using a wire basket over the side (I think this would be less stressful for the fish as they are maintained in the lake). Luckily one of the teams consisted of an actual judge so we got to keep third place as he took our side. So even without any fancy equipment and not being able to fish as long as we couldn't race across the lake at 60mph we still beat 47 or so other teams. So I have no problem with tourneys allowing the latest and greatest equipment. Know old timers who still can out fish you without electronics.

[Fontona19]

Some of these guys must still be using bamboo rods, wooden longbows with wooden arrows, and a flint musket. Traditions are fine, but to think the evolution of tools should be banned is pure silliness.  As soon as I see one of these guys in the parking lot with their horse drawn wagons I will tell them how silly they actually are.

[esox_xtm]

Now this was back 30 years ago when I was stationed in Texas. A buddy and I showed up at a lake where they were getting ready to start a Bass tourney. Since we fished the lake regulary we asked if we could join. The guys running it were ok with it but said that all (50) teams had to agree. They all said ok so we paid the $100 entry fee (assume they figured ours was free money as we weren't equipped with as nice of stuff). I believe it started at 7am and ended at 4 or 5pm. When it came to weigh-in we did pretty good and came in third (bit of skill and some good luck). Then the objections started. Teams said we couldn't win as we weren't using a real boat which allowed us access to areas they couldn't get to, we had a rubber raft. They said we weren't using proper propulsion, we had a set of oars and a beach towel we used as a sort of sail. They said we weren't legal as we had no live well, we were using a wire basket over the side (I think this would be less stressful for the fish as they are maintained in the lake). Luckily one of the teams consisted of an actual judge so we got to keep third place as he took our side. So even without any fancy equipment and not being able to fish as long as we couldn't race across the lake at 60mph we still beat 47 or so other teams. So I have no problem with tourneys allowing the latest and greatest equipment. Know old timers who still can out fish you without electronics.

Love it!!! 

[Noon]

Short answer to solving the debate, make two brackets in the tourney. One with new gadets (ie. Panoptics etc.) And one with sticks and stones and old school methods ( hand augers or chisels only  )

My opinion, doesnt matter what gear you have, fishing is fishing.  I enjoy it for the sake of doing it.  Ive been in tourneys, never much success bc i was a kid without any fancy gear going against guys with all the nice bass boats etc. In lakes i didn't know.
I do recall a day fishing with my friend at a lake that had a tourney going on. We had landed a few nice largemouths (3 -4 lb range). Some guys in a fancy boat ceuised up to where we were fishing and asked if we were in the tourney. Told them no. They told us no one seemed to be catching anything tht day. They then asked how we were doing and we said we caught a few nice bass. They then asked if we kept them to which we said no and they seemed disappointed. When talking to my friend's dad later in the day,  he told us those guys would have probably offered to pay us for the bass because that particular tournament had a big cash prize and not many people had any good fish this year. As a 15 year old, i was so confused why someone would pay to fish or even harder to understand pay FOR a fish they didnt catch. I'd like to believe that i wouldn't have sold my fish anyway but it definitely stood out to me how much winning a tournament might mean to some people

I fish because it is where i find peace in the world. Its been my main form of meditation and connection with life ever since i can remember or even knew that's what I was doing.  I believe it will always be just that for me. If guys want to use fancy gadgets to win their tournament prizes for whatever their motives, so be it.  I will still go fishing.

[mboss13]

The more I am looking into the panoptix/livescope tech, yeah if I ran a tournament I'd make that tech not allowed. These are simply different tech then your vex and marcum flashers.....these things target schools of fish, basically making sure you're not fishing empty holes.....Now the way I thought some of the bigger tournaments work is they drill your hole and that is where you fish....the tournaments where you can hope around with a shack is where people cheat anyway.....


The panoptix/livescope is at the level of the live game cameras connected to the phone while hunting which are outlawed in many states........


Technology is great but if certain one isn't regulated it has potential to destroy the sport within few years......mainly the reason why states regulate hunting and angling in the first place.....that and to make money.

As far as tournaments go, it is up to the organizers to decide what level of equipment they want to allow. Most organizers around me are bunch of bumps who organize the tournament for their club's profits. Several last year weren't registered with the DNR but advertised huge prizes. This becomes a problem when they get away with it as the DNR then fails to restock that body of water.
 So when the day of the tournament came the lake looked like a Walmart parking lot on Black Friday......just think the kind of pressure a tournament can put on a body of water, then add in advanced tech and guys keeping or improperly handling fish and a "fun" Saturday tournament can destroy a fishery for several years.
Either way, the tournament organizers need to be the responsible ones as they are the ones coming up with the rules of a tournament. I'd leave the choice up to them.

[Gunflint]

Technology is great but if certain one isn't regulated it has potential to destroy the sport within few years......mainly the reason why states regulate hunting and angling in the first place.....that and to make money.

I agree that this technology (especially if the cost comes down and it becomes more widespread) will end up changing the fishing regulations.  Our kids will look back and wonder how us old-timers ever caught any fish when we didn't have the ability to see them in real time.

However.... based upon my experience in Minnesota is that the regulations will not ban the technology outright, but end up impacting the limits and slot sizes for the fish caught by everyone to minimize the potential for the technology to severely impact the overall catch. My memory of more and more restrictive limits follows the improvements made by the overall fishing technology.

With the political clout of Garmin and Lowrance's parent company, Navico (who won a cross license deal with Garmin over patent issues and will debut their own version of Panoptix Livescope in the spring) I think it will be difficult for legislation to single their technology out and prohibit it from being used. I suppose that Humminbird (who is blocked by these same patents) might make a stink, but I doubt it would be successful.

CONCLUSION: This is why I want to be one of the first to buy/use it because I think that fishing regulations are bound to become even more restrictive. In the meantime, I will enjoy it while I can.

[hays47]

For the people who are pro-ban:

What you are essentially saying is. Anything that makes you  or anybody a  better on more effective fisherman . Should be banned or prohibited. To essentially protect the fish populations and level the playing field.

What amazes me no one ever thought the old style Panoptix was unfair. Now when Livescope paints a prettier picture it's wrong somehow. When Mega side imaging came no great swell of protest there either.

So lets ban boats , all electronics ,  all reels. Cane poles would be the  only approved fishing implement.  Of course all modern lines should be banned too. Since there might be some who can't afford the more expensive lines.

Sorry but my old debate coach. Drilled into us. The premise that . To take the other side's argument and take it to the extreme. To me its like a hunter protesting that Remington made a too accurate gun.

[Noon]

For the people who are pro-ban:

What you are essentially saying is. Anything that makes you  or anybody a  better on more effective fisherman . Should be banned or prohibited. To essentially protect the fish populations and level the playing field.

What amazes me no one ever thought the old style Panoptix was unfair. Now when Livescope paints a prettier picture it's wrong somehow. When Mega side imaging came no great swell of protest there either.

So lets ban boats , all electronics ,  all reels. Cane poles would be the  only approved fishing implement.  Of course all modern lines should be banned too. Since there might be some who can't afford the more expensive lines.

Sorry but my old debate coach. Drilled into us. The premise that . To take the other side's argument and take it to the extreme. To me its like a hunter protesting that Remington made a too accurate gun.

I would not say I am pro ban, but I do disagree with some of your arguments. You definitely did take it to the extreme like you said. Taking things to the extreme is a great way for people to become separated and divided. Also a great way to debate rather than problem solve.
But I see it as in my home state where you have to use a plug in your shotgun so you cannot have more than 3 rounds at a time. Shotguns are made to hold many more rounds and this is a simple solution to an advancement in tool technologies. It puts a limit or restriction on something so it does not get out of hand. Just like speed limits. It does not stop people from breaking rules, but it helps to keep things within reasonable bounds. Banning panoptics (like I said I am not on this side) would not necessarily mean all technologies and tools for fishing would also be banned. I think as one of the posts above mentioned, regulations may need to be adjusted as far as catch limits go to accommodate for a potential increase in fish caught due to new and upcoming technologies. but finding a balance is a continual game that Fish and Wildlife biologists have to play in order to keep tabs on human impact on the natural flow of life. I do not see any need for this to turn into an "Us vs Them" type of thing but rather , here is a more advanced way for people to explore water and fish habitat. Knowledge is not bad, it is what we do with it that matters. If people respect fisheries and limits, panoptics would, in theory, only mean you are done fishing sooner because you limited out sooner. (sounds like a loss to me  )

[hookset81]

For the people who are pro-ban:

What you are essentially saying is. Anything that makes you  or anybody a  better on more effective fisherman . Should be banned or prohibited. To essentially protect the fish populations and level the playing field.

What amazes me no one ever thought the old style Panoptix was unfair. Now when Livescope paints a prettier picture it's wrong somehow. When Mega side imaging came no great swell of protest there either.

So lets ban boats , all electronics ,  all reels. Cane poles would be the  only approved fishing implement.  Of course all modern lines should be banned too. Since there might be some who can't afford the more expensive lines.

Sorry but my old debate coach. Drilled into us. The premise that . To take the other side's argument and take it to the extreme. To me its like a hunter protesting that Remington made a too accurate gun.

I completely understand this counter argument.  To be clear, I think the technology is awesome.  My question, and the subsequent conversation was rooted in experience watching dirt late model racing go from something that a lot of race tracks had weekly to so crazy expensive that they are now mostly a special event sort of class.  It was almost all due to the money being spent got so out of hand that  the weekly racer couldn't afford to compete.

My thought was that this type of technology has the potential to do the same thing to ice fishing tourneys, and I was referring to real tourneys not glorified derbies.  For those that think the price will erode, I think you are mistaken.  I don't see the price of Panoptix type technology going down much if any until something better comes out and even then technology typically only gets more expensive.  Look at the Vexilar series as examples, they still make the same FL8se for the same price as before and have a plethora of more expensive options too, but that FL8 is still there. 

I love this technology, I am just concerned what it does to the spirit of the competition of tourneys.  There must be a reason international rules are no electronics and hand augers only right...

[kayl]

I have a hard time listening to people complain about the cost of panoptix being prohibitive with how common and expensive ice houses, snowmobiles, and other toys are in this hobby.

If you'd shopped around in the past year, you could have a 9" panoptix setup for around $1200 and that's before any cash back or discounted gift cards.

[DTro]

What people really need to do is just go out on the ice and enjoy it exactly how they see fit.  If you are smiling that's all that matters.

[hays47]

What people really need to do is just go out on the ice and enjoy it exactly how they see fit.  If you are smiling that's all that matters.


Exactly at this moment the only thing we are forced to buy is a license. At the rate we are losing our freedom of choices. Why would anyone want to add to that.

[1tohuntandfish]

I noticed you mentioned the NAIFC. I would be willing to bet at least the top half of the guys that regularly fish those tournaments would be able to beat or still be competitive with the average Joe with panoptics.  Just because you know the fish are there doesn't always make them bite.  That said, I will always want any and all electronics at my disposal if in a tournament.  Spend as little or as much as you want, but there are always some fisherman that are just better, or willing to work harder to catch more fish.

[1tohuntandfish]

I noticed you mentioned the NAIFC. I would be willing to bet at least the top half of the guys that regularly fish those tournaments would be able to beat or still be competitive with the average Joe with panoptics.  Just because you know the fish are there doesn't always make them bite.  That said, I will always want any and all electronics at my disposal if in a tournament.  Spend as little or as much as you want, but there are always some fisherman that are just better, or willing to work harder to catch more fish.

[mboss13]

I have a hard time listening to people complain about the cost of panoptix being prohibitive with how common and expensive ice houses, snowmobiles, and other toys are in this hobby.

If you'd shopped around in the past year, you could have a 9" panoptix setup for around $1200 and that's before any cash back or discounted gift cards.

The 93sv plus unit is $1k alone......have not seen the option where it would drop that low with the panoptix transducer?

[kayl]

The 93sv plus unit is $1k alone......have not seen the option where it would drop that low with the panoptix transducer?

.
The non plus was $450 last Black Friday and there was a $200 mail in rebate on the ps22 those April. Throw in some cashback and discounted gift cards and you're right there.

[mboss13]

.
The non plus was $450 last Black Friday and there was a $200 mail in rebate on the ps22 those April. Throw in some cashback and discounted gift cards and you're right there.

Are you sure the non plus units work on it?

[Gunflint]

As I understand it, the non-plus will work with the Panoptix but NOT the Panoptix Livescope.

[kayl]

Are you sure the non plus units work on it?

As I understand it, the non-plus will work with the Panoptix but NOT the Panoptix Livescope.

Gunflint nailed it. I have the Echomap CHIRP 73sv and the PS22. The original ice bundle was the Echomap CHIRMP 73cv and PS22. The newer plus units are Livescope compatible.

[mboss13]

Gunflint nailed it. I have the Echomap CHIRP 73sv and the PS22. The original ice bundle was the Echomap CHIRMP 73cv and PS22. The newer plus units are Livescope compatible.

Makes sense. As I explained in the other thread, I don't think I would go with just panoptix, knowing the superior livescope visual performance.....I don't know if there is a big difference between the 73sv plus and the 93sv plus though, or if it is just size.

[tbern]

Any way to do some kind of software upgrade to make  non plus units compatible?

[Gunflint]

In speaking to a guy at Garmin, the issue seems to be processor speed. The Livescope is much more porcessor-hungry than the standard Panoptix. I also heard from another person that the Lowrance Livesight copycat product that will launch next spring is even more processor-hungry and will be VERY expensive (as if the Livescope is not expensive enough already).

[Damn Yankee]

Old dudes ?? I am 71 and as tech savvy as a lot of whippersnappers. Careful using generalities like I just did.

Hey KIDDO. 77 years here.