Exclusive State Managed Trophy Fishery - Interest Level

[teehjaeh57]

Trying to determine interest in the following scenario of a state owned fishery managed for trophy fish.  Here's the scenario:

BOW between 50-250 ac
"Specialty" Fishery species:  YP, WE, SMB, RES [Redear Sunfish], Magnolia Crappie [triploid "sterile" black crappie], HSB "wiper", TM [Tiger Muskie], 5# rainbow trout stocked in Fall as bonus harvest fish
Boats allowed - electric trolling motor only
Live bait not allowed except leeches, crawlers, waxies
No treble hooks, barbless single hooks only [flexible]
Cabin onsite with ultilities for overnight stays - use included in daily fee
Limited access - reservation only and max 4-8 anglers/daily [maybe less or more]
Strict harvest rules as fishery dictates only - virtually 100% C/R unless otherwise posted [sometimes it's important to cull 8-10" YP, etc.]

Goals:  Would be managed as a trophy only fishery - goal is for every angler to have a decent shot at a Master Angler of one or more species daily.  By "trophy", I mean realistic goals a BOW of this size [up to 250 acres] could produce:

YP 13"+, WE 24"+, SMB 20"+, RES 10"+, Crappie 15"+, HSB 25"+, TM 36" +

Several states manage sections of trout streams in this manner to provide "blue ribbon" water - some even impose barbless dry fly only regulations.  This is typically the only water I fish in CO, WY, MT and ID when flyfishing.

What would be your interest level in scheduling a trip or two annually for low pressure, trophy fish?  Bearing in mind many of us have paid $300-$500 daily for guided fishing on public water all over the country and would be lucky to see fish of trophy status, what would this fishery be worth to you, personally?  Bear in mind it requires interstate travel for a legit shot at many of these fish if you want "trophy" status - this fishery would be located in NE a few hours away.

I'll start things off:  If I had a legitimate shot at fish of this size, I'd love to get a group of my friends/sons and would value this at $350-$500 daily/angler [with lodging included].  Photos of trophy fish that aren't that common in NE are worth this price, IMO.

*State employee controls access on the lake and ensures all regulations are followed*

FYI - I manage several fisheries in SE NE and this "specialty" fishery can be created and successfully managed - it does require time and effort, however.  Thus the reason for the onsite State employee.

[JimQ]

Kinda reminds me of a State owned and managed Adventure Land or Six Flags.   

Privatized, maybe... State owned, sounds like a stretch.

And remember your audience here.  AVID fisherman...

Sounds like you know a thing or two about managing fisheries.  Get some financing together and get busy!

Q

[teehjaeh57]

Trying to envision a revenue model for the state which is always under budget constraints...this could be a positive revenue stream and might serve as an outline for other projects similar in nature, but with different species.  Additionally, could be an awesome resource for fishermen like ourselves who want to treat ourselves once a year to incredible fishing.  Other fisheries could be of the standard LMB, BG, RES, HSB, CC - but also managed for trophy fish.  Shot at 5-8# LMB sounds like fun to me.

Jim, if it were created, would you give it a try?  What's a day of catching trophy SMB and YP worth to you?  [Forget who manages it for a moment.]

[JimQ]

I'd probably wouldn't feel too bad about spending a few hundred bucks ($300) for a small family/group including modest cabin type lodging.  Gonna spend it on gas and a guide anyway.  Having it relatively close with less travel time would make it logistically easier and make me more likely to do it.  It's tough to load the wife and kids up and take a fishing trip up in MN or SD

Q

[teehjaeh57]

Sounds about right to me...thanks for your feedback Jim.  Who knows, this might happen someday!  If so, I'll hopefully be right in the thick of it - maybe the onsite manager!  One can dream having a 250 ac lake in the backyard...

[Sandbilly]

Need to add BG 10"+ to get me there. 

You obviously know way more about pond management than I ever will. With that said, I could see a trophy lake including 2 or 3 species listed. More than that would be very challenging IMO.

My personal objective over the past two decades has been targeting trophy pan fish through the ice on NE public water. I would however be willing to concede $3-500 every few years for a picture fish, (if it could be done on ice.)

dc     

[panfisher1]

The state can't take care of the parks they have now. Need to get that figured out befor they start more.

[CARTMATT]

Sounds like a rich country club style fishery. I'll stick with with pulling slabs from public waters and mud pits.  And fry ones I want.

[teehjaeh57]

Good point you raise - paid duck/goose blinds, paid deer hunts, or professionally guided fishing trips aren't for everyone whether it's a fiscal issue or something else.  I have never paid for pheasant or duck hunting, but know folks who do and swear by it.  I have enjoyed guided fishing a few times fly fishing in FL and deep sea fishing and that's worked pretty well for me - got me on fish fast and taught me the local patterns, etc.  To each their own.

Bear in mind some folks have such limited time for fishing annually [1 ice fishing outing, maybe 2 in the Summer] and want to be as productive on the water as possible.  Obtuse statement to dismiss those anglers as "rich country club" types - some have incredible demands placed upon their time with work, family, volunteering, etc. and don't mind shelling out some $ to get an opportunity to tie onto trophy fish.  That may or may not appeal to everyone, obviously - which is the reason for the post. 

[teehjaeh57]

I'm with you, Sandbilly - I'm a big bluegill fan, too.  You should check out www.bigbluegill.com.  It's run by a friend of mine, Bruce Condello, and he is a trophy bluegill master!  I know Pelican, Duck, and other lakes out your way are pretty famous BG fisheries, but not sure how they fish these days after being hammered for years.  Hopefully you have carved out a few spots where you can still pop a few trophies!

Something that might interest you - I fished King Fisher Society in NC, which is managed by my friend Bob Lusk who owns Pond Boss Magazine and website.  He's created an amazing fishery for big BG - average about 1.5#, and the aforementioned Condello has caught 4 fish over 3# during his trips there!   Amazing.  I didn't do that well during my visit last June, but popped a few just under 2#.  Both Northern and Coppernose BG in the fishery - which also has some crazy LMB fishing.  You should check it out sometime - definitely one for the bucket list.  Here are a few of my fish, considered dinks by KFS standards.  Wish I was catching these regularly around Lincoln, however.

[JimQ]

Wow!  That's pretty impressive.  Those would eat my big BG!

I feel like I'm now forced to adjust my definition of "Nice Bluegill"

Nice fish!

Q

[teehjaeh57]

KFS is renowned for trophy BG - really a special place.  Those CNBG [copper nose] are beautiful fish, but I'm still partial to our Northern BG.  In Fisherman has done a few stories on them...if I could raise BG to that size I'd be ecstatic.  I'm working on a trophy BG/YP pond right now - selecting the top 1% fish from each year's recruitment and stocking only Male BG and Female YP.  My hope is to have a fishery where every fish caught, one day, will be a NE Master Angler [10"+ BG and 13"+ YP].  So far have 100 Male BG stocked around 7-9".  Work in progress - long way to go to catch the KFS brutes!

[ULking]

KFS is renowned for trophy BG - really a special place.  Those CNBG [copper nose] are beautiful fish, but I'm still partial to our Northern BG.  In Fisherman has done a few stories on them...if I could raise BG to that size I'd be ecstatic.  I'm working on a trophy BG/YP pond right now - selecting the top 1% fish from each year's recruitment and stocking only Male BG and Female YP.  My hope is to have a fishery where every fish caught, one day, will be a NE Master Angler [10"+ BG and 13"+ YP].  So far have 100 Male BG stocked around 7-9".  Work in progress - long way to go to catch the KFS brutes!

I had a private pond that I could regularly catch massive BG some be 12" but after it wasn't closely managed it went to sh%t and lucky to catch  10"-10 1\2" now!

[ole-red]

State managed "exclusive" fishery? Not with my funds please! Private funds - fine. The Game & Parks has Public resources you can utilize to set up a fishery on private lakes. Public lakes, properly managed for trophy fishing only, by the Commission are a great idea. I'd support such an idea 100%. I love cold weather. Let's Fish!

P.S.  What about an annual $3 state raffle to fund such a project - something anyone could afford?

[BojiHawk]

I don't know...sounds a little canned... and in my opinion, those fish shouldn't count towards "wild" fish records at all.  And, as small as the lake would be, it's truly fish in a barrel.  I would be as impressed with a 1.5 pound gill from a private trophy lake as someone holding 10 pheasants from a SD ranch hunt:  not at all.  IMO...getting out alone (not shantytown fishing), doing some homework, being the only tracks on the ice, and most of all....hauling limits to a cleaning house and listening to people talk about "slow" fishing is what it's all about.  I get that not everyone has time...and this is what canned hunts are for.  Most people don't understand that it's rare to take a 3 day trip and set up on the first day and plop down on fish.  Vague reports (15 feet in ____Bay) and other advice from locals should be taken with a grain of salt.  Watch the Bitter Lake cam.  People will start streaming out to an area in front of the ramp...half dozen...dozen...40...t hen 75 anglers will fish shoulder to shoulder damn near.  Nuts.  The best part of ice fishing is done from the computer and topo maps.  I wouldn't mind a local guide (local first...guide second) for my first day on a new lake.  But after that, I like to do it alone.  If you are only able to fish 4-5 days a winter....yes, that trophy pay-for-play thing might be a solution.  I would feel very different though about catching a 2 pound perch from a glacial public lake than weighing one in at the trophy club house and writing a check for it.  I'm 20 miles from the nearest fishable lake in Wayne, NE but I seem to make time.  Guess the theme here is..."SO MUCH DELICIOUS WILDLIFE...SO LITTLE TIME AND GAS $".

[teehjaeh57]

Good feedback Boji...I don't think anyone can argue that taking highly pressured trophy fish from public water is much more difficult than hitting private, unpressured water.  I've made that statement in the past on this forum, and feel pretty strongly about it being on both sides of the equation for the past 10 years managing private waters.

You also hit the nail on the head - this would likely appeal most to those who lack the time or resources to drive 10+ hrs to get on fish up in SD or ND.  Bear in mind, some folks tired of the elbow to elbow crowds and decided to create their own fisheries - but it's far from dumping fish and growing trophies.  It requires significant science and effort to raise trophy fish in any BOW. 

Regardless, last time I checked the pheasant ranches and private fishing guides are still doing pretty well, so scenarios like this appeal to a significant contingent of anglers, apparently.  If I received permission from a rancher in the Sandhills to fish a previously unfished BOW on his spread would I feel guilty popping 14" YP?  Heck no - sounds like the stuff of dreams!

[grizzlyhackle]

I don't know...sounds a little canned... and in my opinion, those fish shouldn't count towards "wild" fish records at all.  And, as small as the lake would be, it's truly fish in a barrel.  I would be as impressed with a 1.5 pound gill from a private trophy lake as someone holding 10 pheasants from a SD ranch hunt:  not at all.  IMO...getting out alone (not shantytown fishing), doing some homework, being the only tracks on the ice, and most of all....hauling limits to a cleaning house and listening to people talk about "slow" fishing is what it's all about.  I get that not everyone has time...and this is what canned hunts are for.  Most people don't understand that it's rare to take a 3 day trip and set up on the first day and plop down on fish.  Vague reports (15 feet in ____Bay) and other advice from locals should be taken with a grain of salt.  Watch the Bitter Lake cam.  People will start streaming out to an area in front of the ramp...half dozen...dozen...40...t hen 75 anglers will fish shoulder to shoulder damn near.  Nuts.  The best part of ice fishing is done from the computer and topo maps.  I wouldn't mind a local guide (local first...guide second) for my first day on a new lake.  But after that, I like to do it alone.  If you are only able to fish 4-5 days a winter....yes, that trophy pay-for-play thing might be a solution.  I would feel very different though about catching a 2 pound perch from a glacial public lake than weighing one in at the trophy club house and writing a check for it.  I'm 20 miles from the nearest fishable lake in Wayne, NE but I seem to make time.  Guess the theme here is..."SO MUCH DELICIOUS WILDLIFE...SO LITTLE TIME AND GAS $".

Great post, my feelings exactly.

[JAM3S]

$350 - $500 per day?

Hell no. Keep that trophy in a can to yourself. I like working for the few master anglers I catch.  You know what comes with that hard work?  Pride!

[ULking]

$350 - $500 per day?

Hell no. Keep that trophy in a can to yourself. I like working for the few master anglers I catch.  You know what comes with that hard work?  Pride!

thats what im thinking...way too high to spend it in state lol

[teehjaeh57]

Glad to see the post is generating dialogue.  Again, the purpose of the post is to determine interest level, spark discussions and raise questions!  FYI this topic has been discussed a lot lately in many states - specifically Texas and other states hit hard by drought and subsequent limited angling opportunities.  Also, in states with dense populations out East public fishing is very limited, so it's something the state agencies are considering implementing from what I've been told.  There already exist a lot of private bass clubs in GA, LA, AL, MS, TX, FL - but it's the first time I believe that some states are considering implementing on their own.  I find it unlikely NE would ever do something like this - and I'm on the fence on whether I'd be interested or not as an angler.  On one hand it would be great to have some SD type fishing within an hour to two drive, but there are other considerations.  As in most other forums, some find the program to have merit, others don't.  What I find fascinating is many of the ones who are not in favor of the idea seem to respond pretty passionately about it, as though they've been insulted, and begin casting dispersions towards others.  Don't understand how the conversation degenerates into something on a personal level...bummer!

[JAM3S]

My instant perception of someone who pays extra to fish or hunt on professionally manicured environment strikes me as lazy and privileged.  I see using a guide service as a different definition.  If I were to hire a guide, it's because I would be trying a new body of water and successfully catching fish would cost me alot in supplies and electronics that I don't want to purchase. When I hear "managed trophy lake", I envision CEOs with the money, but not the know how or gumption to go honestly catch a fish all on their own.  They don't want to fish, they want to buy a  fish.   I should know, that's my dad. And it bugs the sh*t out of me.

That's why I have a strong opinion. 

[teehjaeh57]

I've never paid to fish a BOW or paid to hunt, but would never dismiss those who do as "lazy".  I doubt you meant it in that way. 

I understand misconceptions regarding "managed trophy lake".  "Managed trophy lake" means a fishery is actively managed - as in pond/fishery management techniques employed by fishery biologists which help optimize any fishery - nothing more.   In this case the techniques are focused on growing the largest fish possible AT THE EXPENSE of population of specific species [Lower YP population, skewed towards larger fish].  I can get into the science of ways to achieve that sometime, if anyone is interested, in a separate post.

Suffice it to say, a slot limit is a management technique and represents NE state fishery biologists' efforts to manage NE fisheries statewide with their limited resources/manpower/budget.  Not all management strategies work for all fisheries - for instance, Branched Oak lake.  State has imposed strict regs regarding harvest of HSB, WE, and all three species of catfish in an effort to help manage invasive White Perch populations.  One might not view BO as a heavily managed lake, but true to the definition of fisheries management, it truly is intensively managed - and an inadvertent result is many of these predator fish are true trophies [few but big WE, big Flatheads, etc.]!  All these regs are management strategies geared towards the unique characteristics and needs of that specific fishery.  Big Mac is different [with presense of alewife and drawdowns], so is Red Willow, and on the other end of the spectrum, believe it or not, no two 1 acre farm ponds behave alike - all are truly unique and management techniques have to be tweaked to achieve the goals for that specific fishery [overpopulated stunted skinny LMB/trophy BG or stunted BG/trophy LMB].  Depending on the condition of the fishery, different strategies are employed to achieve a specific goal.

The science behind pond and fishery management is used to improve the productivity of the fishery through supplemental stocking, selective population management, maybe even supplemental forage stocking [would alewife improve the predator population body condition?  Smelt?  Threadfin shad?], and other tactics in an effort to manage the best fishery possible for anglers to experience.   Bear in mind on a smaller BOW, management techniques are often far more effective at meeting goals for the fishery due to the more manageable size and fish populations.  Even subtle efforts can have a significant effect [IE sinking cedar brush piles in a small pond can help BG populations rebound in a predator heavy fishery within a season or two]. 

Again, I understand the misconception if you aren't familiar with hearing the term fisheries "management" - and why "managed trophy lake" would lead you to some vision of a golf course. 

Another misconception commonly raised here is the assertion that fish in a smaller BOW are somehow easier to catch - or they are "canned".  Obviously in smaller BOWs we're dealing with a different fish population dynamic - a fraction of what we'd see in larger BOWS due to limited carrying capacity [fewer fish], and even moderate pressure leaves these fish seeing as many or more presentations than any popular ice fishing lakes.  To add to the challenge, fish in smaller BOWs have often been caught at least once, if not many more times, and become extremely hook shy.  Lastly - fish in smaller BOWs typically see greater forage availability swings, and top end size is skewed towards larger BOWS [Big Mac WE vs 10 ac farm pond WE].  It's far more likely to pop a 14" YP in Bitter or Devil's than in a 2 acre farm pond - there are exponentially more fish that size present!  With that in mind, the equation becomes more equalized comparing catchability challenges for large vs small BOWs, and the claim doesn't stand up to scrutiny of science and empirical data. 

[ULking]

I dont take it personal i just wont go if i dont like it but if its state funded i wouldn't appreciate it!! 

[teehjaeh57]

Perfect UL, that was the purpose of the post, to determine interest level. 

I liked your post the other day - three questions for you:

1.  Do you think the pond that produced 12" BG for you back in the day were "inferior" or "less worthy" master angler fish because they came from a bow smaller than, say, 100 acres?

2.  When you started experiencing declining body conditions of those former trophy BG, would you have been willing to do the following in response to the declining BG quality [just examples of possible strategies]:

- Started culling all BG caught 4-6" and any fish, regardless of length, with relative weight under 100%
- Stock grass shrimp and crayfish [BG love eating their YOY] to supplement the existing forage base [trapped in nearby creek, no cost to you]
- Implemented a slot where any BG 8+" with WR [relative weight] 100+% were released
- Manage excessive vegetation to allow for easier predation from LMB and/or CC [stock grass carp or spray sections of aquatic vegetation]

Let's say you would have been willing to do these things - in a couple seasons, the BG body conditions rebounded and you restored the fishery to it's former glory - congrats!  My last question is:

3.  Do you feel those fish be "inferior" or "canned" because you implemented management techniques to improve the condition of the BG fishery?   

I get that this is a forum dedicated to the hunt for fish on hard water - most often, maybe, on public water.  Relating some of the science behind managing the resources we enjoy and pursue and how to sustain/improve fisheries is something I am trying to do in hopes some find it interesting and helps make them better anglers/stewards of the water/fish.  I'm trying to convey that when we keep a 10" Crappie for the peanut oil and release those 12"+ fish, we're actively engaging in management towards a trophy fishery!  Think about it. 

[ULking]

I don't think its less of a prize fish bc its private or managed that just means you care more about what ypu have imo...had known more about managing a pond I woulda started as soon as I noticed the decline in size. Since I've added some grass carp to help with weedsand dug some of it out and implemented a selective harvest to not only reduce the over population but keep the bigger healthier gills in there.
I'm not against having a place like you described but think for it to be state funded prices would have to be lower to allow more ppl that may not be able to fork that much out but also have the strict harvest limitations on it

[teehjaeh57]

For the record, I'm neither "for nor "against" bass club lakes or private fisheries managed specfically towards certain goals [lunker LMB, BG, etc.] - simply, they exist, and are growing in number, and I just wanted to shed light on the subject.  Also, some states are talking about becoming involved in those projects and it's a topic worth discussing.  Some encourage it, some don't - vehemently. 

In regards to managing private water being an option for the "elite", I manage two fisheries for bass club guys around Lincoln.  They aren't CEOs - one is a group of NPPD blue collar field guys who bust their butts daily on powerlines, the other are factory workers from Goodyear or Kawasaki, I forget which.  They pooled their resources in an effort to provide local fishing opportunities that were matched to their goals - in these cases, lunker LMB.  Worth noting, as there are a lot of misconceptions regarding this apparently.

Well done on your efforts to manage your BG fishery - let me know how things progress.

[hardh2ofish]

I would not be interested in the state trying to provide such a fishery.  Seems to me they already try to provide quality fishingthroughout the state, what with limits and size restrictions.  With all the bow's close enough to home. Where do you propose you put such a lake?  I say leave such a fishery private and canned. 

[teehjaeh57]

I'm not proposing anything, actually - I'm saying private water management can produce better fishing, and a lot of anglers are tiring of the chase and focusing their resources on fishing, not driving.  I have no motives here except that I've experienced both sides the last 10 years, and see the results.  It's a discussion occuring nationwide as resources become more pressured - and wanted to see where guys on the forum sat on the issue.

Again with the canned phrase, I'm sorry, I don't understand what it means!  You maintain fish that come from private water [sandpits, farm ponds, etc.] are "canned" fish?  But fish taken from a public BOW are "not canned", is that the definition?  Sorry, the term is foreign to me.

If that's the case - state record fish taken from sandpits are "inferior" to those taken from public waters - probably shouldn't be counted?  Are UL King's Master Angler BG canned taken from a private farm pond?  Just trying to wrap my head around this canned term.

[JAM3S]

To me, canned means from a body of water not available to the general public, that costs you more than a fishing license to access.

[hardh2ofish]

So you weren't proposing anything?  Only generating interest in the state providing a lake where "anyone" can realistically catch "trophy" sized fish of one or more species daily?  For a fee.   I say there are trophy sized fish in almost every state managed fishery in Nebraska.  Look at the record books and master angler award applications that flood the state every year. That's why you can only receive one award per species per year.  The reason people don't realistically catch trophy fish everyday is because some people are content to plop a folding chair and a cooler full of beef down about any ol' where and sit and watch a bobber.  And even then a blind old pig can find an acorn.  People who realistically want to catch trophy fish already can.  Some fish a little harder than others, some get lucky, and some pay for someone else to do their foot work.  "Canned" may be a vague and dirty word but again I'm not personally interested in the state providing such a lake as you  spelled out in your original post.