People went through ice on Budd Lake

[JigAwhopper]

Good luck trying to have our government trying to solve out problems, all they can do is pass more punitive laws and limit our rights.  Once you start that road where some bureaucrat decides how thick is safe enough,   you might end up with 12 inches, or even closing off some local lakes to ice fishing. You can not legislate common sense.  I don't think ice fishing is anymore dangerous than sky diving, white water kayaking or climbing.  All can be done safely for years if right precautions are in place, but mistakes can be final.  So what?  It is a calculated risk to do what we love.  You can not save people from themselves.  I was fishing on 3 inches last week end, probably on 2.5 at some point,  but I had ice spikes, throw rope and a bunch of guys around to help if I get in trouble.    I see too often, bunch of clueless kids ice skating on something even thinner with no parental supervision.
I feel bad for the families affected,  it is a tragedy that did not have to happen,  very sad.
J

[KneeDeepSteve]

You missed my point if you think legislation will solve it. My primary point is hit em in the pocketbook but first set the guidelines and criteria that dictates WHEN to fine and HOW MUCH to fine. First offense $500 IMO. Double if it's not locked up. 2nd offense $1000.

That'll fix stupid the first time!!

You are out of your mind. Saxxmatt and others have said exactly what I think already. You want the goverment to tell you what you can and can't do about everything you do in life? Who is going to pay for the extra man power to patrol the lakes and hand out these finds? I did a lot of stupid crap when I was younger but the stuff that actually stuck in my head that my parents warned me about probably stopped me from making any fatal mistakes. Either way kids think they are invincible and things like this happen all the time. Parents just need to do their best to explain to their kids the dangers of being out on the ice.

[Icemark247]

It is a sad and tragic event to see two kids have passed. But IMO it was not smart of them to even venture out near open water on ice. Personal if they start going on telling me i can not fish until it is 6 inches or more ill be PO'ed and i will have a argument with them. NO Ice is ever truly safe so how will they ever come to a conclusion of what will be a safe ice thickness to go on? What happens when they shore lines are busted and there is stilll 6 inches of ice out there and only way you need to get there is a plank, are they going to stop you then as well? Personally i think they should not be putting up signs on when you can go out fishing. No fines as well. Just Warning signs saying something like access ice at own risk or something like that. What ever happens from then on is the persons problem. They should know to have safety gear with them at all times if something ever does happen

[Doitnow]

I've had ice safety training and have safety equipment like ice picks, a float suit and a spud bar. I don't need someone who doesn't know what they're talking about trying to tell me if the ice I safe enough to be out on. I had a cop kick me off of 6" of ice once because someone called the cops saying I was on unsafe ice. I almost got arrested when I tried to argue with him. It ruined what would have been a great day on the ice. I shouldn't have to worry about getting kicked off when I'm out there.

Think this fining proposal through, it makes absolutely no sense. You're telling me the 50+ people out on Budd lake on Sunday safetly enjoying ice activities on a beautiful winter day should have all been fined $500 each because some birds were keeping water open half a mile away out in the middle of the lake? Do you think 3" of solid new black ice isn't safe but 4" of rotten honeycomb ice at the end of the season is? Are we going to pay the authorities to go through ice safety training, spud every inch of every lake in New Jersey to make sure there are no bad areas before we can go out? Don't you think their time and our tax dollars would be better spent on other things? And you want all this done because a few people make poor decisions and fall through the ice each year? Why don't we tell people they can't swim anymore because there is a risk of drowning, or can't drive cars anymore because they might crash. Actually, let's put everyone in protective bubbles with a steady supply of food and air and have everyone stay in their houses all the time so nothing bad ever happens.

[cliffr]

Kids will be kids. It's unfortunate to say the least, but we don't need "lake communities/municipalities" enacting knee-jerk/feel-good legislation that restricts ice access to those of us who practice safe ice practices and have experience keeping ourselves safe on the ice. I can't count how many times I've had non-ice anglers "warn" me about the ice I'm on being "unsafe" from the shoreline...I've been drilling holes my entire way out to where I'm fishing at that point...do you think I don't know how thick the ice is where I'm standing?!!! I want to tell them, "Believe me, I want to fall through the ice even LESS than you want me to." **censored**

[Wizzofd69]

R.I.P.

[fishgalore]

LMAO.......even when I tell you what I mean you guys still misunderstand my point!

[projoe]

having regulation for a set min measurement of ice thickness is not a very good idea in my opinion.  You also need to take into consideration that not everyone weight is identical.  Unfortunately like previously stated common sense is generally not used when tragedies such as this one happen.  When someone falls through the ice i would guess that they were on "safe" at one point in their trip but because of the many variables in nature something caused ice thickness to vary.  In order to declare a lake "safe" to access, every inch of the lake would have to be checked, these regulations would just be added on to the crazy amount of wasteful spending that out state/country continue to take part in.

[fishgalore]

"Please fetch that light blue book on the table over there". Do I mean the light colored blue book or the light weight blue book?

Words can be easily misunderstood and or misconstrued. I didn't read any of the responses all the way through since most of you were like a herd of sheep following the first one to the slaughter. Not one of you took my idea(s) as a starting point for conversation or interaction but you ALL took them to mean that was the end all solution to what I note as a problem. No one expanded on my thoughts.........just attacked them. Most of you obviously chose NOT to think deeply or creatively to solve a problem.  Not one of you asked.........what do you mean by your thoughts? You assumed that you knew. Yup, I set you up and to prove my point that you let your emotions get in the way of clear thinking.

Here's a creative thought that could have been a creative suggestion:- Have police or CO give written warnings  for a 1st offense and make the record permanent for when a 2nd offense occurs. 

Here's another suggestion:- action on the local level:- Do like Rockaway Township does and prohibit the use of Parks Lake for ice skating until they post the "safe" ice  sign like they do when it's safe. They also put barriers up where running water flowing in makes for thinner ice. Fines, no doubt, would POSSIBLY be levied if an offender was caught. 

The idea that we are free is another interesting concept. I don't want MY freedoms trampled upon or restricted any further!! We sure do live in the me, me, me & I, I, I generation don't we? Now I understand this as much as anyone and there is no simple answer but at least think a little bit about it not just react.
How much in taxes do you pay? That's what I thought. To much!!! How come you are not free to NOT pay them? You do have an unlimited bank account don't you?
Into what socio-economic class were you born into? Did you choose what country to live in or were you born here and as a result reside here? How 'bout the natural color of your skin, hair, the size and shape of your body did you choose those things as well?

After all you can do the 40 yard dash in under 4.5 seconds right so that ought to make it safe for you to get off the ice quick enough.

Looks like some of your "free will" is pretty limited or restricted and you had little or no choice about them.

So lets come full circle. Most of you will continue to fire shots, fire away. Others consider thinking about solutions that will benefit others and not just yourselves.

Lyrics from a song:-
Walking around I hear the sounds of the earth seeking relief
I'm trying to find a reason to live
But the mindless clutter my path
Oh these thorns in my side
Oh these thorns in my side
I know I have something free
I have something so alive
I think they shoot cause they want it
I think they shoot cause they want it
I think they shoot cause they want it

I feel forces all around me
Come on raise your head
Those who hide behind the shadows
Live with all that's dead

[Chorus:]
Look at me... look at me
At least look at me when you shoot a bullet through my head
Through my head
Through my head
Through my head.................. ...................... ...................... ...................... ...............

 

[tonyrad]

The Eskimos have 28  words for ice. Right now it looks like only 1 is the right one, UNSAFE, as pertains to the tragedy that took place. Looks like the sled goes back into storage for a time, we may get a break, and we might not, but from here on out time and conditions are against us.

[onice2013]

Well, I think after the massacres with the guns and now this budd lk. thing.. Government has to fine all the people trying to make an honest living too.. there is simply too many people getting way out of hand these days. fine everybody for j walking too especially inside those drug free zones! those violators should get the death penality. Wish I was as perfect as those in authority, like those insiders on wall street and bloomberg Alex Jones is youtubing about  we sure need change now more than ever!!! lol

[Doitnow]

What would we do if these boys where killed crossing  route 80?
I know 20 foot fence along  the entire length of highway (with barbed wire ) and warning signs, also 500 dollar fine for attempting to climb it.

[saxmatt]

I don't think it was the ice that was dangerous, it was the bikes. If they were walking they would have heard the ice start to crack as it thinned out and would have been able to turn around. Because of the speed of the bike they didn't have time to react and they fell in. Kids also get hit by cars a lot while riding bikes and get a lot of serious injuries like broken bones and head trauma by falling off bikes. I think bikes should be illegal and any kid or adult caught riding one should have their bike seized and they should be fined $500. 2nd offense sends you straight to jail.

You can't fix stupid 

[Crawlerman]

If your gonna start putting the blame and responsibility on the towns, police, and conservation officers. The easiest and quickest fix they know is to legislate your freedom away!

I had a municipal officer make me come off a pond. I was told I wasn't in trouble.
 I was then asked how do I know went it is safe? How do you know how thick the ice is?
 Do you really want people like that making the decision? A lot of these folks have much less knowledge about ice safety than your average ice fisherman. Also conditions can change rapidly. A lot faster than these folks can respond to it. Therefore the sign will go up and it will say " no ice activities punishable by law."  In their eyes problem solved. It still won't stop ill advised or uninformed people from making bad decisions. It also only stops law abiding people. 

 

My condolences to the family, friends, and community.

[Esoxman]

No one wants to here such a tragity especially young lives being lost very sad.For what ever it is worth red and green flags around  the lake work red is no green is go ice is checked daily and flags let u know do it ny state parks.

[onice2013]

There is an easy fix without allowing  incompetent  politicians and world bankers/government to impose Marshall Law lol.  All the Budd lake town has to do now is post  ice warning signs where there is public access to the lake and have a town guy periodically drill test/monitor ice thickness,, if it is not thicker than say 6 inches,, he puts a red flag on the sign,, if it is safe ice say 6 inches or more,  he puts a green flag on the sign. and those going out when it is closed, get  a slap on a wrist fine (under a 100 dollars) like a parking ticket..for not abiding by these simple rules. For the kids getting caught?.. the parents get same fine and the bike is confiscated until the fine is paid.. after that what can I say wrong about the "Law"  As it is now with the debate about seizing our 2nd amendments, we tax payers are really facing a greater threat,,better use those smart phones wisely or there is going to be bad times ahead  Alex Jones is so right, that Pier Morgan  snake insider got deported.

[chrisk]

LMAO.......even when I tell you what I mean you guys still misunderstand my point!

Read and understood your posts and the points you were making. At least the parts that aren't clear as mud. The 6inch. $500 bit was clear as spring water. As for me I'll continue safely icefishing on 3-4inches.

[bmxrider11976]

i just dont see it feasible to check every public pond and still see it as unfair for access to be limited in the slightest bit. if i wanna fish 3 inches, thats my prerogative. i shouldnt be hassled for it, and people should be smart enough to know what they are safe on. i had numerous people walk out to me on the ice this year after i spudded my whole way out, and made trails of "safe ice" only to cut right through those trails and ask "how thick is this ice?" oh well its about 3 on the trails, but it could be about a half inch in other spots. you wanna see the color go out of someones face real quick? tell them they just tempted fate and didnt even know it. the problem is just that people dont understand ice. they assume (and we all know what the does) that since im out there, the whole pond must be safe. these are the type of people that die. i'm not saying that ice fisherman never go in, but i am saying that ice fisherman take more calculated risks and are more prepared for going in than i would venture to say 98% of the people on the ice. but what we also do is take great precautions in order to NOT go in. im sitting here scratching my head trying to think of a way to make getting on the ice more safe for the general public, and im drawing blanks. the flag idea is not a bad one, but that still entails checking lots of water. possibly in more built up areas with more ice traffic it woudl work, but certainly not around my area. if i had to wait for 4 inches of ice to be all across the ponds i fished this year, i wouldnt have fished. the thing is, i felt more than safe on the bodies of water i was on. it could be 6 inches in one spot, but 5 feet away it could be 2 inches, BUT i knew that. i was aware of my surrounding. i was careful, and used all of the tools i had in order to stay on top...and guess what.......i'm still here. what people need is an education, and if they dont have that education they should know better than to go out on the ice.

[KneeDeepSteve]

"Please fetch that light blue book on the table over there". Do I mean the light colored blue book or the light weight blue book?

Words can be easily misunderstood and or misconstrued. I didn't read any of the responses all the way through since most of you were like a herd of sheep following the first one to the slaughter. Not one of you took my idea(s) as a starting point for conversation or interaction but you ALL took them to mean that was the end all solution to what I note as a problem. No one expanded on my thoughts.........just attacked them. Most of you obviously chose NOT to think deeply or creatively to solve a problem.  Not one of you asked.........what do you mean by your thoughts? You assumed that you knew. Yup, I set you up and to prove my point that you let your emotions get in the way of clear thinking.

Here's a creative thought that could have been a creative suggestion:- Have police or CO give written warnings  for a 1st offense and make the record permanent for when a 2nd offense occurs. 

Here's another suggestion:- action on the local level:- Do like Rockaway Township does and prohibit the use of Parks Lake for ice skating until they post the "safe" ice  sign like they do when it's safe. They also put barriers up where running water flowing in makes for thinner ice. Fines, no doubt, would POSSIBLY be levied if an offender was caught. 

The idea that we are free is another interesting concept. I don't want MY freedoms trampled upon or restricted any further!! We sure do live in the me, me, me & I, I, I generation don't we? Now I understand this as much as anyone and there is no simple answer but at least think a little bit about it not just react.
How much in taxes do you pay? That's what I thought. To much!!! How come you are not free to NOT pay them? You do have an unlimited bank account don't you?
Into what socio-economic class were you born into? Did you choose what country to live in or were you born here and as a result reside here? How 'bout the natural color of your skin, hair, the size and shape of your body did you choose those things as well?

After all you can do the 40 yard dash in under 4.5 seconds right so that ought to make it safe for you to get off the ice quick enough.

Looks like some of your "free will" is pretty limited or restricted and you had little or no choice about them.

So lets come full circle. Most of you will continue to fire shots, fire away. Others consider thinking about solutions that will benefit others and not just yourselves.

Lyrics from a song:-
Walking around I hear the sounds of the earth seeking relief
I'm trying to find a reason to live
But the mindless clutter my path
Oh these thorns in my side
Oh these thorns in my side
I know I have something free
I have something so alive
I think they shoot cause they want it
I think they shoot cause they want it
I think they shoot cause they want it

I feel forces all around me
Come on raise your head
Those who hide behind the shadows
Live with all that's dead

[Chorus:]
Look at me... look at me
At least look at me when you shoot a bullet through my head
Through my head
Through my head
Through my head.................. ...................... ...................... ...................... ...............

I still don't think YOU get it. There isn't any need of ANY action by ANY local governments. Kids just need to be taught the dangers of going out on the ice and that there is no such thing as safe ice. Noone else should be telling me what THEY think is safe ice, that should be for ME to decide.

[saxmatt]

How much in taxes do you pay? - Not much, I don't make a lot of money and have a really good accountant.
How come you are not free to NOT pay them? - Because I chose to live in New Jersey, not New Hampshire.
You do have an unlimited bank account don't you? - Yeah, I play free Poker online and my bankroll is unlimited.
Into what socio-economic class were you born into? - Middle class 
Did you choose what country to live in or were you born here and as a result reside here? - I was born in New England and spent some time playing music in Europe but decided the NY/NJ area had the best music scene and was a good place to be a musician.
How 'bout the natural color of your skin, hair, the size and shape of your body did you choose those things as well? - I stuck with what I was born with except for the hair. I have no interest in being Michael Jackson or Rue Paul.

[dish]

This is crazy.  I'm for safety but there is enough government regulation.

Also, I'm all for change of heart fishgalore but you are a bit extreme in your responses.

Last year in the Cranberry lake reports I cautioned that the lake wasn't fully safe and even though you hadn't been on Cranberry at all you told me:

*******
"Thats not fully accurate either.........since we had 9 guys (well over 1000 lbs) on 3" of ice all standing within 10' of a burning barrel cooking food, drinking and talking while the ice was cracking and sometimes moving (guys running.........lmao)."

And

"The point I was making is that 3" is safer than you think. Also just because you hear cracking doesn't mean that means the ice is unsafe or you are in danger of falling through. In fact, cracking sound usually means the ice is expanding and if it is expanding then ice is being made.
********

Now your 180 degrees the other way with safety galore, fines and government regulation.   Grab yourself a cup of consistency and calm down a little.   We all agree safety and education is important.   Its the extreme reaction that people are against.

The extreme reactions, long posts and web site links supporting whatever position you're advocating today is making my head spin worse than the stuff being shoveled and spun by Congress and Obama.

Oh and since your into quoting Lyrics....I've got a few for you From "Witch Hunt" by Rush

Quick to judge,
Quick to anger,
Slow to understand
Ignorance and prejudice
And fear walk hand in hand


Lets not turn another tragedy into another government witch hunt.

[delawareriver]

It comes down to it no ice is really safe, first ice, last ice, anywhere between there is to Many factors to ever say a frozen lake is safe. I have fished on 2 1/2 inches to 3 inches and never went thru but have been thru on a lake that had 8+ inches. I don't need or want someone telling me I can or can not be on the ice. We need to educate our kids as I was while a kid to never go on the ice. Especially without an adult, and definitely not in the dark.

[Ski Hunter]

i had numerous people walk out to me on the ice this year after i spudded my whole way out, and made trails of "safe ice" only to cut right through those trails and ask "how thick is this ice?"

I always love the guys who walk across a lake to ask how the ice is and then accuse you of putting their lives at risk since the ice thickness wasn't "safe" in their eyes    earlier this season I was on 3" of clear black ice, there were numerous spots with snow on that I avoided since I knew they wouldn't have the same ice under. Had a guy walk the 1/4 mile across the lake to where I was and ask how the ice is and then started screaming at me I was a moron and should be thrown in jail for making him risk his life coming out to see how the ice was     It took every ounce of my being to ask him how smart someone has to be to walk 1/4 mile across ice that they don't know how thick it is with no spud/ auger, no picks, no safety equipment of any kind but the guy who drilled every 30', had picks, a waterproof cell phone and a USCG approved float jacket on is the dumb one 

[onice2013]

Mafia government first the guns and now the ice augers where , when is it going to end lol  these smartphones aren't that smart for you, smart for them but not us knowing GPS  IS WATCHING AND LISTENING    I feel bad for the victims and especially their families but, could these smartphones mean  tools for Marshall Law

[Evil Tom]

I totally agree with delawareriver,no ice is totally safe.You have to be careful and it would be a shame if the gov had to tell us when there is safe ice.I icefish alone quite a bit and have learned to extremely careful and cautious.

[onice2013]

No ice is totally safe but really think about what happened and it really dictates some kind of community guidelines for lakes in the southern zone with these warm winters. I not saying taking public rights away because of such incidents. The town doesn't have to spend a great deal of tax payers money to post signs and monitor the ice thickness. They worry too much about liability instead of using common sense. They know more about ice chart thickness thn most on these forums. The town ,I suspect doesn't monitor and patrol because they are worried about involving liability issues. Which to me does not make sense.. wonder how much overtime was spent dragging for the poor victims bodies This is why I feel some heads should roll in that town.

[Evil Tom]

Maybe people using the ice should use common sense as most people that use the ice do.There was about 40people on budd lake the day before this happened how bout staying off the ice at night if your not experienced enough.This was a tragic accident and more people will be a lot more careful now.

[NJ PIKER]

WELL SAID mlbob
 

[delawareriver]

Onice2013 I know where your coming from but I would have a bigger problem if a community says a lake was safe then have a fatality. As far as I'm cornered budd lake was safe. There was ATV tracks all over the ice. 5 to 6 inches of good ice on the majority of the lake. The only way this accident could have been avoided  without punishing the responsible is common sense.

[Van_Cleaver]

 I once had a guy ride across a small private lake on an ATV, only to ask me how thick the ice was. There happened to be five in. but I was still checking everywhere with my spud in front.  Basic education and awareness of danger (and, as mentioned above, common sense) would prevent most of these tragedies.