Author Topic: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...  (Read 7876 times)

Offline Broken81

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12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« on: Dec 07, 2008, 05:03 PM »
Can i use my  12 volt car charger to recharge a 12 volt 7 amp battery for my flasher?
Cold is only a state of mind....

Offline rgfixit

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #1 on: Dec 07, 2008, 05:08 PM »
NO!
It will destroy your battery.

You need a "Smart Charger" that will read the battery's current condition. Charging at a fixed rate will cause excessive coating and deterioration of the cell plates and drastically reduce the life of the battery...if it doesn't cook it outright.

RG
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?"

Offline Drifter_016

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #2 on: Dec 07, 2008, 05:09 PM »
Depends, If your charger has a 2 amp setting you have no problem. Anything higher you could very quickly over charge and damage the battery. The best charger to get are the little 1 or 2amp battery maintainers for motorcycles, they are fully automatic and do not charge the battery too quickly and shut off when it;s charged. I have several chargers with the best being a 6/2  amp. I use it on the 2 amp setting for a few hours and it's good to go.  While automatic chargers are very easy to use they are not necessary, but you need to watch over the battery so as not to over charge.

Offline rgfixit

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #3 on: Dec 07, 2008, 06:02 PM »
I posted this a while back;
Batteries 101
I work in the lighting industry and deal with small, deep cycle , lead acid batteries every day. I did a bit of research for y'all Grin

The basics;
There are several types of lead acid batteries. For our purposes , powering flashers etc, we'll most likely use sealed, lead acid type batteries of parallel plate construction.
 
How they work;
 A battery cell consists of two lead plates a positive plate covered with a paste of lead dioxide and a negative made of sponge lead, with an insulating material in between. The plates are enclosed in a plastic battery case and then submersed in an electrolyte consisting of water and sulfuric acid. Each cell is capable of storing 2.1 volts.

In order for lead acid cell to produce a voltage, it must first receive a (forming) charge voltage of at least 2.1-volts/cell from a charger. Lead acid batteries do not generate voltage on their own; they only store a charge from another source. This is the reason lead acid batteries are called storage batteries, because they only store a charge. The size of the battery plates and amount of electrolyte determines the amount of charge lead acid batteries can store.

When a fully charged battery is connected to a load (flasher for example)  the chemical reaction between sulfuric acid and the lead plates produces the electricity. This chemical reaction also begins to coat both positive and negative plates with a substance called lead sulfate also known as sulfation . This build-up of lead sulfate is normal during a discharge cycle. As the battery continues to discharge, lead sulfate coats more and more of the plates and battery voltage begins to decrease. The chemical reaction is slowed.

Lead sulfate is a soft material, which can be, and is, converted back into lead and sulfuric acid, provided the discharged battery is immediately connected to a battery charger. If a lead acid battery is not immediately recharged, the lead sulfate will begin to form hard crystals, which can not be reconverted by a battery converter/charger.

Can your battery freeze?
If your battery is partially discharged, the electrolyte in a lead acid battery may freeze. At a 40% state of charge, electrolyte will freeze if the temperature drops to approximately -16 degrees F. When a battery is fully charged the electrolyte will not freeze until the temperature drops to approximately -92 degrees F. If your battery freezes there is a high risk of internal damage  to the plates. The battery case will most likely be damaged by the expanding electrolyte as it freezes.

Battery Maintenance;
Undercharging - Generally caused by not allowing the charger to restore the battery to full charge after use. Continuously operating a battery in a partial state of charge, or storing the battery in the discharged state results in the formation of lead sulfate (sulfation) on the plates. Sulfation reduces the performance of the battery and may cause premature battery failure.
 
Overcharging - Continuous-charging causes accelerated corrosion of the positive plates, excessive water consumption and in some cases, damaging temperatures within the battery. Lead acid batteries should be charged after each discharge of more the 50% of its rated capacity and during or after prolonged storage of 30 days or more.

Charging;
It's critical to use a "smart charger". Using a charger that produces a constant voltage will overcharge the battery causing excessive heat and deterioration to the plate structure. Smart chargers vary the voltage according to the state of the battery's charge and limit damage during charging.

Low temperature performance;
Batteries rely on a chemical reaction to discharge their stored energy. As with all chemical reactions, heat is the catalyst and cold the inhibitor. Standard parallel plate lead acid batteries do not produce the same voltage or capacity in cold temps as in warm temps.

By the way...I don't use electronics on the ice  ;D

RG

There is a new type of lead acid battery called a "Spiral Cell" that may take over the battery market if manufacturers can produce them cost effectively. Spiral Cells show no negligible change in discharge rate or voltage  in cold temps.
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?"

Offline Broken81

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #4 on: Dec 07, 2008, 06:11 PM »
well my charger has a 2 amp feature but can anyone point me to a cheap smart charger?
Cold is only a state of mind....

Offline rgfixit

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #5 on: Dec 07, 2008, 06:16 PM »
Is it  a Gel cell?
RG
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?"

Offline quiter

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #6 on: Dec 07, 2008, 06:22 PM »
Look on ebay its called battery tender.

Offline rgfixit

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #7 on: Dec 07, 2008, 06:27 PM »
Looks like a good unit that meets the requirements.
RG
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?"

Offline johns73

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #8 on: Dec 07, 2008, 07:50 PM »
Black & Decker sell a trickle charger for $17.00, works the same as the battery tender and has a 1 and 2 amp setting for 1/2 the price.

Offline littlesturgeonguy

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #9 on: Dec 07, 2008, 09:44 PM »
another option is a marcum dcs charger, it hooks up to your battery and has a digital display thats says what % of charge is in your battery and what i like the best you don't have to use those little aligator clips you just plug the cord into it. you don't have to worry about over charging and you don't have to have a marcum i know a few guys who bought them for the vex.

 

Offline A- bomb

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #10 on: Dec 07, 2008, 10:27 PM »
good old radio shack too...
Lack of planning on your part in NO way constitutes an EMERGENCY on mine

Offline rgfixit

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #11 on: Dec 08, 2008, 01:55 AM »
Black & Decker sell a trickle charger for $17.00, works the same as the battery tender and has a 1 and 2 amp setting for 1/2 the price.
Trickle chargers will damage SLA batteries unless they're specifically designed for that purpose. It doesn't make much sense to ruin a $50 battery with a $17 charger.
Search Sealed Lead Acid Battery Charger on the web. They are sold as low as $35. You can get a decent one for around $50.
RG
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?"

Offline Spawnwalker

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #12 on: Dec 08, 2008, 06:33 AM »
I posted this a while back;
Batteries 101
I work in the lighting industry and deal with small, deep cycle , lead acid batteries every day. I did a bit of research for y'all Grin

The basics;
There are several types of lead acid batteries. For our purposes , powering flashers etc, we'll most likely use sealed, lead acid type batteries of parallel plate construction.
 
How they work;
 A battery cell consists of two lead plates a positive plate covered with a paste of lead dioxide and a negative made of sponge lead, with an insulating material in between. The plates are enclosed in a plastic battery case and then submersed in an electrolyte consisting of water and sulfuric acid. Each cell is capable of storing 2.1 volts.

In order for lead acid cell to produce a voltage, it must first receive a (forming) charge voltage of at least 2.1-volts/cell from a charger. Lead acid batteries do not generate voltage on their own; they only store a charge from another source. This is the reason lead acid batteries are called storage batteries, because they only store a charge. The size of the battery plates and amount of electrolyte determines the amount of charge lead acid batteries can store.

When a fully charged battery is connected to a load (flasher for example)  the chemical reaction between sulfuric acid and the lead plates produces the electricity. This chemical reaction also begins to coat both positive and negative plates with a substance called lead sulfate also known as sulfation . This build-up of lead sulfate is normal during a discharge cycle. As the battery continues to discharge, lead sulfate coats more and more of the plates and battery voltage begins to decrease. The chemical reaction is slowed.

Lead sulfate is a soft material, which can be, and is, converted back into lead and sulfuric acid, provided the discharged battery is immediately connected to a battery charger. If a lead acid battery is not immediately recharged, the lead sulfate will begin to form hard crystals, which can not be reconverted by a battery converter/charger.

Can your battery freeze?
If your battery is partially discharged, the electrolyte in a lead acid battery may freeze. At a 40% state of charge, electrolyte will freeze if the temperature drops to approximately -16 degrees F. When a battery is fully charged the electrolyte will not freeze until the temperature drops to approximately -92 degrees F. If your battery freezes there is a high risk of internal damage  to the plates. The battery case will most likely be damaged by the expanding electrolyte as it freezes.

Battery Maintenance;
Undercharging - Generally caused by not allowing the charger to restore the battery to full charge after use. Continuously operating a battery in a partial state of charge, or storing the battery in the discharged state results in the formation of lead sulfate (sulfation) on the plates. Sulfation reduces the performance of the battery and may cause premature battery failure.
 
Overcharging - Continuous-charging causes accelerated corrosion of the positive plates, excessive water consumption and in some cases, damaging temperatures within the battery. Lead acid batteries should be charged after each discharge of more the 50% of its rated capacity and during or after prolonged storage of 30 days or more.

Charging;
It's critical to use a "smart charger". Using a charger that produces a constant voltage will overcharge the battery causing excessive heat and deterioration to the plate structure. Smart chargers vary the voltage according to the state of the battery's charge and limit damage during charging.

Low temperature performance;
Batteries rely on a chemical reaction to discharge their stored energy. As with all chemical reactions, heat is the catalyst and cold the inhibitor. Standard parallel plate lead acid batteries do not produce the same voltage or capacity in cold temps as in warm temps.

By the way...I don't use electronics on the ice  ;D

RG

There is a new type of lead acid battery called a "Spiral Cell" that may take over the battery market if manufacturers can produce them cost effectively. Spiral Cells show no negligible change in discharge rate or voltage  in cold temps.

Great information! Based on your knowledge of batteries how long should our batteries last (years) if we charge after each use and store them with a full charge. Also what is your feelings about the battery charge indicaters that you get with the Vexilars? Are they a good status indicator to go by as far as 1/4, 1/2, full charge and over charge?
Death from above

Offline littlesturgeonguy

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #13 on: Dec 08, 2008, 07:46 AM »
Great information! Based on your knowledge of batteries how long should our batteries last (years) if we charge after each use and store them with a full charge. Also what is your feelings about the battery charge indicaters that you get with the Vexilars? Are they a good status indicator to go by as far as 1/4, 1/2, full charge and over charge?
thats what i really like about the marcum charger with telling you the percent of charge in the battery.

FISHFORPIKE

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Re: 12 volt 7 amp battery help...
« Reply #14 on: Dec 08, 2008, 08:58 AM »
Trickle chargers will damage SLA batteries unless they're specifically designed for that purpose. It doesn't make much sense to ruin a $50 battery with a $17 charger.
Search Sealed Lead Acid Battery Charger on the web. They are sold as low as $35. You can get a decent one for around $50.
RG
Hey, RG, what would your opinion be of using an old (not age wise) ups with innards (one of those small ones that you are not supposed to replace the batteries in, they hold two 6 volt sealed lead acid batteries connected in series) as a charger for small 12 volt sealed lead acid batteries.  Just open the case, remove the, now no good, (5 yr old batteries) add on an extension to the two battery leads and put the case back together with the leads outside for connection to a battery?  Seems this would do the trick as a battery charger/maintainer for 12V ice gear, in my mind.

Phil

 



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