Live Bait Use in NY

[JJ]

Glad I got your attention. It is really time to get serious on the new baitfish regulations, or this will be a reality. A lot of people are complaining that they won't work, are unenforcable, stupid, they were enacted just to try to make fishing harder, that state is doing it to raise money, and countless other ridiculous arguments. The fact is we have been given our chance, we all (fishermen, bait dealers) need to follow through and obey the new regs. VHS is a serious disease with serious potential consequences to OUR fisheries, and DEC knows this and they are taking it seriously, regardless of what you believe or may have read on here. Believe me when I tell you the next step is to outlaw all baitfish, it is being given serious consideration, get the word out. It can happen and to be honest, I believe it will happen based on attitudes shown thus far.

[roverowner]

What upsets me is that this regulation is pretty much uneforcable.  Why not spend the time working on getting rid of the causes of these problems?  DO NOT LET SHIPS RELEASE THEIR BALLAST IN THE GREAT LAKES WATERS!  Gobis, zebra mussels, VHS (I think VHS has been sourced as coming from ship ballast), and who knows what else has been caused by this.  If the government thinks that this is too much of a strain on the shipping companies and will cause economic problems, ask them what kind of an impact NY will have when all recreational fishing has been killed!

[JJ]

I am talking about a threat that is already here and how WE are going to deal with it. They are not going to ignore something as serious as VHS and "spend the time working on getting rid of the causes of these problems."Like I said, it is up to us to enforce these emergency regs. The alternative is no more live bait, if DEC sees that these "unenforcable" regulations are not being followed.

[crayfishbob]

Amen , brother. Its hit me hard, theres a little voice in my head that keeps me going, telling me : "this is the big one" , " Keep it up, maybe they will listen"

 I'm one of the few in the state that had the opportunity to actually have my minnows tested. They are from Oneida lake and the lake has been deemed free of VHS. When my results come back, you, the rest of everyone here, and the DEC will be informed immediatly regardless of the results.Its not every day that this opportunity will happen, where you have this kind of info.

I'm following the rules. I'm promoting "safe practices" for the fishing community and others.I can only hope others can do the same.

[mcboats81]

I don't think that all of the VHS debate can be blamed just on ships releasing their ballast. Yes that does introduce alot of foreign species into our waters, however there is quite a bit of blame to be placed on those that have introduce species of fish into waters that they were never intended to be in (bucket stocking).  Which leads to the fact that the DEC has completely killed every fish in some lakes to reintroduce native species, namely the brook trout I think.   VHS is a very dangerous disease and we all need to take the necessary precautions.  Zebra mussels would not have spread so quickly if everyone with a boat had cleaned them properly before putting in at another body of water. 

[roverowner]

But how will the DEC know if the regs are being followed when they wrote one that has no way to be checked?  Simple solution to that would be to have all bait sellers provide a receipt with all sold bait that the fisherman must produce when asked.  Outlaw bait trapping by non-bait sellers.  Simple.  Why did the DEC produce this half-baked plan?  When something cannot be enforced, people will be more likely to not follow the regulation.  Start writing tickets for possesing non-certified bait and some people will be more likely to follow the law.  If VHS continues to spread will the DEC then be able to come back and blame the fishermen rather than blaming the agencies that allowed this to happen in the first place?  I am serious about stopping the spread of VHS, and I am also serious about wanting to know what the motivation is behind writing such an unenforcable regulation.  The way it is written, the DEC would have to be an idiot to see that it is unenforceable.  Why not get rid of the en-con officers?  Just write the laws and regulations and leave it up to the sportsmen to police themselves.  Is that a stupid idea?  Well that is basically what has been done in this case.

[crayfishbob]

Ok so johnny fulloffishum goes to lake ontario perch fishing. He fills his live well with perch. That afternoon he heads to say Skaneatlas lake. He catches a trout. He sees that his water is all spew from those perch and flushes his live well. We now have a epidemic on our hands.

What kind of laws were written to stop this type of infestation ? Why ALL the focus on baitfish ? Where is the public awareness ?

I've made two TV channels aware of my VHS meetings, plus made 60 minutes ( the TV show ) aware of this whole situation. I want to plan a "lets stop this ship" thing on the ST.lawarnce. I won't stop until VHS is a household word.
(alright abbreviation)

[JJ]

Keep your head up crayfishbob, your doing a great job to help spread the word. You'd think icefishermen would be more concerned with the possibility of no baitfish use; most ice fisherman use tipups and probably 99% use baitfish on their tipups.  As a fishing guide, a ban on baitfish would not hurt me very much and in the long run would make the fishing better. But, I know a lot of people, bait dealers, shop owners, etc. that would be greatly affected by it.

Roverowner,
DEC came up with a plan that will allow us to continue to use baitfish, without making things to complicated, like your(and others)receipt idea. The issue of enforcability is not exclusive to the emergency baitfish regs, fish and game laws are all difficult to enforce, and require the sportsman to be honest; so enough with this idea of unenforcable laws. Looks like we are going to see baitfish use eliminated.

[JeffreyKrow]

Keep your head up crayfishbob, your doing a great job to help spread the word. You'd think icefishermen would be more concerned with the possibility of no baitfish use; most ice fisherman use tipups and probably 99% use baitfish on their tipups.  As a fishing guide, a ban on baitfish would not hurt me very much and in the long run would make the fishing better. But, I know a lot of people, bait dealers, shop owners, etc. that would be greatly affected by it.

Roverowner,
DEC came up with a plan that will allow us to continue to use baitfish, without making things to complicated, like your(and others)receipt idea. The issue of enforcability is not exclusive to the emergency baitfish regs, fish and game laws are all difficult to enforce, and require the sportsman to be honest; so enough with this idea of unenforcable laws. Looks like we are going to see baitfish use eliminated.

      How did you find out the rules from DEC? I have been asking them for any information they had and they have not given me not one word. I dont think DEC is very organized or very professional either. If they have a new law that they should be so hot and heavy over, wouldn't you think they would at least want people to know about it?  You would think they would tell them when they ask about it. Funny people those DEC folks.
                  JK

[JJ]

DEC is comprised of numerous individuals, the ones I have dealt with have been very professional and organized.
I have worked with a couple fisheries biologists and find them to be extremely dedicated. They are also overworked, I'm not sure who you have dealt with, but maybe they can't get back to everyone seeking info? Your criticisms are unwarrented and really accomplish nothing. All I know is there is all kinds of info on VHS on the DEC website. Do a search there.
There are no new laws yet, only emergency regs that expire in Feb., comment period on the proposed new laws ended this week. New laws will be established before the emergency regs expire.

[wnybassman]

I think the fact that they are "emergency laws" tells why they are a little loose and not well thought out.  Sounds like they needed to get something out, and fast.  Which is fine, can't think of everything when stuff is rushed.  Sounds like they are in the normal routine now with the public comments and thought process which goes into more effective laws/regs.  I don't think the DEC is the bad guy here at all.  They certainly do what they can with what they have.

Easy for me to say seeing I don't use any, but it seems to me by eliminating baitfish use all together, that would be much more enforcable.  Your seen carrying a bucket, we better check you out, period.  By allowing the use in any way shape or form, your opening up too many loopholes, IMO.

JJ is correct in saying are regs are unenforcable.  Doesn't matter what they are.  We've got anglers out there that simply don't care.  Always have had them and probably always will.

I also think some research needs to go into the after effects of VHS.  What can be done, if anything, once a lake or body of water gets infected.  Will it run a course then eventually die off, or will fish become immune?  Stuff like that.

I will do what I can personally to stop or slow the spread.  Like I said, I don't use baitfish so that is not an issue for me.  I do fish a ton out of my boat, and probably launch into 20-25 or more different bodies of water all across the state during the year, sometimes back to back days or even the same day.  I already have thoughts of carrying a bleach solution to rinse the livewells and and bilge area each time I load the boat.

[crayfishbob]

      How did you find out the rules from DEC? I have been asking them for any information they had and they have not given me not one word.

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/propregs/part10text.html

[Polar]

What upsets me is that this regulation is pretty much uneforcable.  Why not spend the time working on getting rid of the causes of these problems?  DO NOT LET SHIPS RELEASE THEIR BALLAST IN THE GREAT LAKES WATERS!  Gobis, zebra mussels, VHS (I think VHS has been sourced as coming from ship ballast)

Thats where the D.E.C. should start. The lake freighters that release their ballast water.

[biggamehunter325]

but this will helped to not spred it

[Polar]

but this will helped to not spred it

Not what I was getting at. To stop this from happening again(which it will) The D.E.C. has to impose stricter regulations on lake freighters. Where do you think gobies,zebra mussels and VHS got it's start in the Great Lakes? Thats right ballast water.Who brought that in? Sportsmen?

[JJ]

You are the second person to bring up ballast waters, as I already stated this post is about fishermen understanding the importance of the new baitfish regulations, not how VHS got here. While stopping potential future invaders is extremely important, we need to deal with this threat that is already present, if we want to keep fishing. Also, DEC has no jurisdicction over the shipping industry through the Great Lakes.

[Polar]

You are the second person to bring up ballast waters, as I already stated this post is about fishermen understanding the importance of the new baitfish regulations, not how VHS got here. While stopping potential future invaders is extremely important, we need to deal with this threat that is already present, if we want to keep fishing. Also, DEC has no jurisdicction over the shipping industry through the Great Lakes.

I'm glad I did. How do you prevent a problem? Stop it at it's source.BTW the damage is done,all the sportmen are doing now is basically preventive maintenance........

[biggamehunter325]

Not what I was getting at. To stop this from happening again(which it will) The D.E.C. has to impose stricter regulations on lake freighters. Where do you think gobies,zebra mussels and VHS got it's start in the Great Lakes? Thats right ballast water.Who brought that in? Sportsmen?

they have regulations so the have to drop there bilge int he ocean
but thats still not better

[stickyfingerdpuppeter]

Im through with this, you win crayfish you and capt jj seem to know it all>yes i think if its gona stop the spread of vhs,[bait use restricton] then thats what should be done,If its gona spread anyway and theres nothing thats gona stop it ,whats the sense.You know the laws are always followed.No one ever breaks the law???once again weve got someone telling us what and what not they think we should   do.That one ,this wont effect and 2 dosnt even live around here.I think if there gona outlaw it it should include bait sale and use EVERYWERE!Sorry crayfish that means you to .cant wait for your results,it must be gd buess,news to know your minnows are from one of the only clean lakes.WHY are you pushing this again?oh thats right YOU SELL BAIT.And you live near one of the clean lakes.I just hope if theres no big effect in ten years from now when youve helped push for a selfseving law[only bait dealers can catch bait"]that will completly ruin many of our fisheries.That we all can have your adress to  write you and captjj to let you know how we feel .If there is no negative effect your gona need a really big mail box.Its been here for years, once again were is all the dead fish.???I also think its wrong to restrict bait use if its caught and used in the same body of water on the same day by fishermen.I personally think  STOPPING transfering of bait from one lake to the next would help control the spread.I dont claim to know what effect[v.h.s] its gona have on all our fishing?I know its been here awhile,iv seen nothing.I know we were told the gobies could poison our fish and the zebra muscles could ruin our lakes.Whats v.h.s really gona do?Time will tell and so far as far as lake erie it hasnt told me much.

[Fishbio824]

Ya I just noticed this as a local bait shop stopped carrying minnows. When I asked why they said "The DEC has entacted strict laws on selling bait. They require extensive cleanthliness, even have cleaning procedures for the rearing tanks. Alot of the small guys are just backing out now.

[bones]

I can appreciate everyones concerns here but how are you going to stop birds that land in Lake Erie or Ontario from transferring VHS to inland lakes? Many lakes in the Great Lakes region are connected via canals. How will VHS infected fish be stopped from going where they want? The answer is there is nothing that can be done in the region. I don't completely understand all of the transfer vector for this virus but it looks like it is not just fish to fish. Stopping the sale of bait is just a bandaid approach. Yes don't sell bait from Lake Erie or Ontario to the inland waters but what does a 100 minnow limit have to do with anthing? 

[snaggerr]

I agree bones and I caught alot of my own bait and use in the same lake I catch hows that going to hurt anything.We cant even catch Bin Ladin how are we gonna stop a disease.Make us suffer again.LOL

[saphireblue99]

I'm down here in Allentown Pa. (East Central Pa) It really pisses me off that no one here really gives a crap about the vhs outbreak you guys are dealing with up there, They all have the it can't happen here mentality. I can't tell how many boats I see that fish in bass tourneys here that have previously fished in Lake Erie or Ontario, pulling that boat plug after a local tourney and letting that possible VHS soup go into that new waterway. PA DCNR needs to get its act together NOW and start Implementing some precautions, enforced heavy duty fines or penalties will get people  serious real fast.

[crayfishbob]

Its just common sense that if the state allows the taking of baifish from infected waters, and people are self-policed, then tragic things will happen because either nobody knows the rules, or don't care enough about it. Its a simple and true point, and you cannot say i'm wrong because people are already breaking the rules out there.I can prove it.

Yes, saphireblue99 you are right on the money on this. Its this exact topic that got me all going on this ! The state makes all these rules about baitfish, but that's only half the picture !

I'll say it again : It will be human intervention, not nature that will spread this disease. Its not impossible by nature, but man will spread it fastest. Boating season is just a few months away. My main focus on the vhs meetings is to get the word out about this way the disease can spread.

[crayfishbob]

Im through with this, you win crayfish you and capt jj seem to know it all>yes i think if its gona stop the spread of vhs,[bait use restricton] then thats what should be done,If its gona spread anyway and theres nothing thats gona stop it ,whats the sense.You know the laws are always followed.No one ever breaks the law???once again weve got someone telling us what and what not they think we should   do.That one ,this wont effect and 2 dosnt even live around here.I think if there gona outlaw it it should include bait sale and use EVERYWERE!Sorry crayfish that means you to .cant wait for your results,it must be gd buess,news to know your minnows are from one of the only clean lakes.WHY are you pushing this again?oh thats right YOU SELL BAIT.And you live near one of the clean lakes.I just hope if theres no big effect in ten years from now when youve helped push for a selfseving law[only bait dealers can catch bait"]that will completly ruin many of our fisheries.That we all can have your adress to  write you and captjj to let you know how we feel .If there is no negative effect your gona need a really big mail box.Its been here for years, once again were is all the dead fish.???I also think its wrong to restrict bait use if its caught and used in the same body of water on the same day by fishermen.I personally think  STOPPING transfering of bait from one lake to the next would help control the spread.I dont claim to know what effect[v.h.s] its gona have on all our fishing?I know its been here awhile,iv seen nothing.I know we were told the gobies could poison our fish and the zebra muscles could ruin our lakes.Whats v.h.s really gona do?Time will tell and so far as far as lake erie it hasnt told me much.

This kind of attitude is why laws are made.

[JJ]

Thank you saphireblue997, the apathy of sportsmen everywhere really is pathetic.

snaggerr, a Bin Laden reference, you must be joking, that really presents a strong argument for your case. I'm guessing you were thew captain of you high school's debate team. Also check your facts, you can still catch bait and use it in the same lake.

bones, additional vectors, such as birds, have been recognized. Just because other vectors exist doesn't mean we should try to stop others, especially the direct transfer of fish which is much more likely to spread VHS. The 100 minnow limit was introduced to stop people from collecting large quantities of bait for illegal resale.

sticky, not sure what you argument is, but some of your facts are wrong; baitfish for personal use can be caught and used in the same body of water, and bait can not be legalling transferred between waters.  So what is your beef? That VHS isn't serious because you haven't seen any evidence, this is your expert opinion?

Lay off crayfishbob please, his intents are hardly selfish, this issue should be important to all fishermen.  Why are some people still not getting it? I would have thought icefishermen would be very concerned with the possibility of no more baitfish use, most people use tipups and more baitfish are sold during the winter than the other seasons combined I believe.

[stickyfingerdpuppeter]

mY BEEF IS SOME OUT TOWNER BAIT SHOP OWNER TRYING TO TELL ME I CANT USE BAIT IVE CAUGHT IN THE SAME LAKE IM FISHING IN.tHAT AS OTHERS SAID MAKES NO SENSE.aLSO YOUR BUDDY IN THE BAIT BUESS.JUST LET HIS CAT OUT THE BAG."HE IS GOING TO BE A DISTRIBUTOR"? ???KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORK OF P-SSING PEOPLE OFF.YOUR DOING A GREAT JOB.

[bigfish_1556]

To step in in the middle, here -

As an ethical and moralistic sportsman here with a slight sense of duty and obligation to our resources, I have no qualms paying a little extra $$ for bait, and do not have any intentions of catching my own bait and using it in waters other than where I obtained it.

There are potentially other vectors by which this virus may be transferred between waterways, and there's not much we can do about that - it's a natural occurrence (even if the origin of the problem here was anthropogenic (caused by man).  What we CAN do is react to the problem and try to contain it as best we can (it is where it is) - sometimes the answers aren't what we want to hear or deal with but something we should regard with a bit of caution AND respect.  Are there economic issues? Sure. It affects both the dealers and the fishermen. The more important *big picture* issue here is the ENVIRONMENTAL one. Suck it up, do what you can do as a sportsman to preserve our wealth of opportunities as best you can, and gosh darn it, FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT!!!!

Don't like it, switch to imitations   I for one don't want to carry the guilt as a cause of a newly infected lake or stream.  At least some entities (FWS and NYSDEC) are making a move on this one - whoa, they're doing their JOBS!

rant over for now

cheers,

bigfish_1556

[crayfishbob]

I wish stickyfingerpuppeteer would read the posts thouroughly before shouting. I only said I disagree with DEC with the decision to allow fishermen to take baitfish from infected waters. I never said anything about you should not use baitfish from the same waters. Infact, I even said in a previous post that I saw nothing wrong with that.

When you get a e-mail from someone with this in it, you wonder whats really going on :

 "I read your post about dipping emeralds on Lake Erie. there are alot of guys who are also taking fish to their ponds and other locations."

Calm down ! We need to be respectable here.

[saphireblue99]

Thanks for all your effort crayfish Bob, Alot of us really do appreciate it. Oh and buy the way, I have yet to run into any millionaire bait dealers here in PA either, thought your critics would like to know