Live bait ban?

[Maineicefisha]

Has anyone heard about the proposed ban on fishing with live fish as bait in Maine trout lakes?  It's all over the Maine fly fishing sites.

[big big rdg]

That would make things tough

[Maineicefisha]

They claim it's ONLY 39 ponds and that they won't be back for more later on.  YA RIGHT!! 

[Mainehazmt]

Dont say that   I have about 700 minnows swimming in my basement now!

[oldfox]

Dont say that   I have about 700 minnows swimming in my basement now!

maybe killem' and cookem'...?   

[billditrite]

is it a ban on live bait or any bait? theyll eat em dead if they are fresh    i am starting to like jigging better anyway. some places are worth protecting. im assuming the proposed locations probably hold wild brook trout stocks. as long as they leave me something to tip my jig with.

[Maineicefisha]

It's live bait today, but who knows what tomorrow.  Some of these guys hate that we fish in the winter.

[fshnfool]

It's live bait today, but who knows what tomorrow.  Some of these guys hate that we fish in the winter.

if it wasn't for winter....some of us would hardly fish at all...

[yukoncornelius]

Seems like the original poster was just trying to get everyone riled up.

Here's a link to a thread with actual inormation, including a link to the actual proposal.

Seems like little to complain about here.

http://www.flyfishinginmaine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=9505&forum=1&14

[Maineicefisha]

Yukon, have you actually read much of that site?  Check this out:

"I'm of the opinion that if a body of water is "prime salmonoid water" then bait shouldn't be used at all! It should be AOL only and single hook only- or,ideally, FFO. "

http://www.flyfishinginmaine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=9475&forum=1

"The bait is a definite problem and I really dont see why we "need" live bait as a means to catch fish when ALO & FFO guys do just as well "

http://www.flyfishinginmaine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=9475&forum=1&start=45

Ya, like they're really going to stop with 39 ponds...and you better believe I'm riled up!  You should be too!

[pegasus]

There always seem to be one group that want it all to themselves. I buy my license the same place as those F.Flysnobs. Now you've done it , I've got to go take a pill.

[billditrite]

well i did read into it a little and thanks yukon for the link to the proposal. from what i can tell it is just a ban on live bait in maines best wild brook trout ponds...ponds which have not been stocked for over 25 years and out of the 39 only six are open to icefishing...i dont think its about fly fisherman vs baitfisherman...its about protecting the last of the worlds wild brook trout population. i dont have all the facts here obviously but i dont see this as a bad thing 

[Maineicefisha]

39 now, and how many later?

[yukoncornelius]

maineicefisha - Read the proposal. It IS about 39 ponds, nothing more. Judge the proposal based on its merits. Are those 39 wild brookie ponds worth the additional protection from the possible introduction of non-native bait species (Maine biologists seem to think so), making the NFALB ban a necessary protective measure? Look further: as billditrite said, only 6 of those ponds are even open to ice fishing now, it isn't a watershed moment in anything other than protection of a dwindling population. Maine has the ONLY significant wild brookie population in the Eastern US. No one in charge is advocating anything more than increased protection, and nothing I read on the other site you listed really seriously asks for more than that.

As for the quotes you pulled: I know that website pretty well, and know this one pretty well. I've been a reader/poster at both for at least 3-4 years. Internet forums are quite a bit like a bunch of guys sitting around a campfire, bar or other social establishment. Words get tossed pretty freely, ideas thrown out, some half-baked, some serious, some in jest. I am quite sure if I wanted to go through backposts on Ice Shanty and run around the internet quoting them out of context, claiming Ice Shanty members are stocking Pike all over the State, that I probably could. But why would I want to? What is gained from trying to pit one fisherman against another? I know quite a few members from both boards, and, surprise surprise, they all like to fish, most hunt, all enjoy spending time outdoors. Quite a few post/lurk/read/participate in both boards. None that I know on the Shanty do anything illegal, and none I know on FFIM are trying to take anything away from anyone.

Perhaps you need to spend a little more time around both places (odd that your 1st post here is trying to stir up trouble. Did you join with just this intent perhaps?) before you start pointing fingers back and forth. I have spent a considerable amount of time in both places, and I truly see little difference in the members of both sites. In fact, I see quite a bit of common ground.

[billditrite]

great post yukon...we all need to be sportman first and protect the resource, no matter how you use it...some guys like flies... some guys like worms...and some guys like trolling 

[jacksmelt71]

there is big business in live bait sales so i dont see this becoming a real problem. i do like the fact that they are protecting native trout waters. maine is the last stronghold of native brookies in n. england and these laws would reduce the chance that the bucket bios would ruin the lake. anybody got a list of the waters affected yet? i bet there is alot of them in the north here.

[fshnfool]

the way I see it....restricting certain lakes and ponds to certain kinds of bait, to preserve the quality of the native fish is the same as having different bag limits on certain waters, only allowing so many doe tags in certain WMD's and so many moose permits in certain zones.....it's all about preservation as well as thinning out the "herds", for successful habitat....my .02

[Maineicefisha]

They aren't talking about certain kinds of live bait, it's ALL of it.

Yukon, you actually sit around on the ice and talk about banning the bait you're using?  Be real!  You sound like that Brady woman who says she only wants to ban bad guns or that Fisk guy who says he only wants to ban bad bear hunting.  Whatever dude...

[msh]

Scott,
I don't believe it was a troll.  Question I have, if after some 50 years of ice fishing, why now is there a great concern about bait species in these ponds.  There is more awareness today than ever before about dumping the bait pail.  In fact, in the past, the thought was that putting the excess bait down the hole actually helped the pond.  If one looks at the information that was collected in the pond surveys from 1940's to the 60's, in many cases the interest was only in the gamefish species discovered.  When baitfish where found, in some cases they were listed as "minnows".  Having collected baitfish and other aquatic species from dozens of watersheds in this state, it is obvious to me that knowledge of just what is in these waters is lacking. 

If the use of live bait in these waters is an issue because of possible new introductions, maybe we should know what is established in these pond now before the new regulation are imposed.  If a baitfish is established in a pond, why should it's use be outlawed? 

In all due respect Yukon, my understanding is that the 39 ponds comes from a list of about 140 total ponds.  My understanding is that the intent was to have all 140 ponds included but IFW has resisted that intended plan.  This is a developing story and everyone who enjoys icefishing some of the larger Northern lakes should be concerned.     

[billditrite]

anybody got a list of the waters affected yet? i bet there is alot of them in the north here.

here is what i was able to copy from the pdf file of the proposal...its a little tough to follow in this format but most are calling for no live fish as bait.


   RULE-MAKING PROPOSALS TO BE ACTED UPON IN 2006
   REGION   ALL
   WATER   ATTACHED LIST   TOWNSHIP   COUNTY   SEASON   SOURCE   HEARING
   See attached list   Ice Fishing
   WATERCODE:   ACTION TAKEN:
   CURRENT    see attached list
   REGULATIONS
   MODIFICATIONS:   Add S-4 (Use or possession of live fish as bait is prohibited. (The use of dead fish, salmon eggs and worms is permitted) or S-6
   (Artificial lures, only), as indicated on the attached list.
   PURPOSE   Provide additional regulatory protection to help prevent the introduction of unwanted species in wild brook trout waters
FINAL REGULATIONS   see attached list.
   revised, August 14, 2006   
 
S-4 RESTRICTIONS WILL BE PLACED ON THE FOLLOWING LAKES AND PONDS DURING
THE ICE FISHING SEASON      
WATCODE   WATER   COUNTY   TOWNSHIP(S)   REGION   Current Gear Restrictions    Proposed Changes in Gear Restrictions    Open to Ice Fishing?      
3022   CUT L   PENOBSCOT   T7 R6 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   Y      
4252   HAY P (HAY L)   PENOBSCOT   T6 R8 WELS   F   GEN   S-4   Y      
2064   HURD P   PISCATAQUIS   T2 R10 WELS   F   GEN   S-4   Y      
6969   KENNEBUNK PLAINS P   YORK   KENNEBUNK   A   GEN   S-4   Y      
1802   MADAWASKA L   AROOSTOOK   T16 R4 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   Y      
1436   WESTERN L   WASHINGTON   ROBBINSTON   C   GEN   S-4   Y   




   RULE-MAKING PROPOSALS TO BE ACTED UPON IN 2006
   REGION   ALL
   WATER   ATTACHED LIST   TOWNSHIP   COUNTY   SEASON   SOURCE   HEARING
   See attached list   Open Water
   WATERCODE:   ACTION TAKEN:
   CURRENT    see attached list
   REGULATIONS
   
MODIFICATIONS:   Add S-4 [Use or possession of live fish as bait is prohibited. (The use of dead fish, salmon eggs and worms is permitted)].
   PURPOSE   Provide additional regulatory protection to help prevent the introduction of unwanted species in wild brook trout waters
FINAL REGULATIONS   S-4
   revised, August 14, 2006
 
S-4 RESTRICTIONS WILL BE PLACED ON THE FOLLOWING WATERS DURING
THE OPEN WATER FISHING SEASON      
   WATCODE      COUNTY   TOWNSHIP(S)   REGION   Current Gear Restrictions    Proposed Changes in Gear Restrictions    Open to Ice Fishing?      
1718WATER   B LAKE   AROOSTOOK   HAMMOND   G   GEN   S-4   N      
0670   BEAVER P   PISCATAQUIS   T3 R11   E   GEN   S-4   N      
0612   BEAVER P (LITTLE)   PISCATAQUIS   T3 R11   E   GEN   S-4   N      
1862   BLACK BROOK L (LITTLE)   AROOSTOOK   CASWELL PLT   G   GEN   S-4   N      
9759   BOURGOIN L   AROOSTOOK   FRENCHVILLE   G   GEN   S-4   N      
3651   BRADFORD P   AROOSTOOK   MORO PLT   G   GEN   S-4   N      
4288   BURNT P   HANCOCK   DEDHAM   C   GEN   S-4   N      
1848   BUTTERFIELD L   AROOSTOOK   CASWELL PLT   G   GEN   S-4   N      
1684   CARRY P   AROOSTOOK   T16 R4 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
5050   CHASE P   FRANKLIN   JIM POND TWP   D   GEN   S-4   N      
1890   CUNLIFFE L   AROOSTOOK   T12 R13 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
3022   CUT L   PENOBSCOT   T7 R6 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   Y      
4290   HATCASE P   HANCOCK   DEDHAM   C   GEN   S-4   N      
4252   HAY P (HAY L)   PENOBSCOT   T6 R8 WELS   F   GEN   S-4   Y      
2064   HURD P   PISCATAQUIS   T2 R10 WELS   F   GEN   S-4   Y      
6969   KENNEBUNK PLAINS P   YORK   KENNEBUNK   A   GEN   S-4   Y      
1922   LONG P   AROOSTOOK   T11 R10 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
0447   LONG P   HANCOCK   MOUNT DESERT   C   GEN   S-4   N      
4390   LONG P   HANCOCK   SULLIVAN   C   GEN   S-4   N      
3030   LOST P   PENOBSCOT   T7 R7 WELS   F   GEN   S-4   N      
1802   MADAWASKA L   AROOSTOOK   T16 R4 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   Y      
1660   MCCLUSKY L   AROOSTOOK   T14 R5 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
1962   MCGOWAN P   AROOSTOOK   T11 R8 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
4244   MESSER P   PENOBSCOT   T5 R8 WELS   F   GEN   S-4   N      
7106   MOXIE BOG   SOMERSET   BALD MTN TWP T2 R3 BKP   D   GEN   S-4   N      
4656   NOYES (NORRIS) P   HANCOCK   BLUE HILL   C   GEN   S-4   N      
2762   PORTAGE P (UPPER)   PISCATAQUIS   T9 R11 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
1758   PRESQUE ISLE L   AROOSTOOK   T9 R3 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
0521   RITTER L   AROOSTOOK   BRIDGEWATER   G   GEN   S-4   N      
1470   ROUND P   AROOSTOOK   T13 R12 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
3660   SECRET P   AROOSTOOK   MORO PLT   G   GEN   S-4   N      
2748   SEWALL DEADWATER P   PISCATAQUIS   T9 R10 WELS   G   GEN   S-4   N      
7066   UNNAMED P (MOSQUITO P, LITTLE)   SOMERSET   THE FORKS PLT   D   GEN   S-4   N      
1628   WALLAGRASS (1ST&2ND)   AROOSTOOK   ST JOHN PLT   G   GEN   S-4   N      
1436   WESTERN L   WASHINGTON   ROBBINSTON   C   GEN   S-4   Y      
1006   WHITEHEAD L   AROOSTOOK   BRIDGEWATER   G   GEN   S-4   N   

[yukoncornelius]

The biologists that we entrust to manage our waters believe this to be a neccesary step to protect some of Maine's brook trout.

That's all I really need to hear.

maineicefisha - it's ba nning the use of live fish as bait. Dead fish ok, worms ok, etc. Seeems like there's similar regs on Lobster and others, and they ice fish just fine.

msh - question "intent" all you want. Seems to me, IF&W has proposed these 39, and that is all I see before me. Again, if IF&W biologists have proposed this minor reg change and deem it necessary, I back them. Youi don't suppose you know better than they do, do you?

[Maineicefisha]

"The biologists that we entrust to manage our waters believe this to be a neccesary step to protect some of Maine's brook trout."

Was it the biologists that proposed it or were they pressured into it by those guys who want to get rid of all bait and all ice fishing?  I bet they were pressured into it by the same guys who say it's okay to ban bad guns and bad hunting, so long as they don't ban fly fishing.  I don't know about you, but I find it pretty friggin hard to dig worms in the middle of winter, but I can trap bait just fine.

[yukoncornelius]

maineicefisha - pressured, huh?

You don't give our biologists much credit I guess.

You also need to look around more. Most bait shops sell worms in the winter. In fact, over a sandy bottom in very shallow water, they are killer for brookies.

Dead smelt are the bait of choice on Lobster up north of Moosehead. It is a trophy togue lake, and I 've seen some killer fish come out of there.

Basically it all comes down to this: Biologists be d@mned, you don't want to potentially change your tactics on 39 bodies of water (only SIX for ice fishing), even if said change is a minor one. Sounds pretty selfish to me. You ever fish any of the lakes in question? Would this actually cause any change in your ice fishing, or are you just one of those guys that likes to stamp your feet and shout regardless?

Me, I give our biologists credit and truly believe they have the best interests of our fisheries at heart. I've also spoken with both John Boland and Paul Jaques on this one, and I didn't hear the word pressure from any groups at all. In fact, they figured some would in fact whine about the small change, but felt it was best anyways.

Go figure.

I'm done with this one, not much more needs to be said. I am quite comfortable with the proposed changes, and where I stand on them. I guess some are ok to disagree with the change, but it is pretty bogus when folks can't simply look at the proposal as it stands and judge it on its merits. Instead they cry about what they think will come next, or whine about who or what is pushing for this or that. This proposal was put forth by biologists to protect wild populations of brooktrout on 39 bodies of water, 6 of which currently allow ice fishing. The proposal would allow live fish as bait, nothing more, nothing less.

[Maineicefisha]

Yukon, what difference does it make if I fish those ponds or not?  Do you fish them?  Do you even use bait when you fish?  I bet not, so you don't really care about the guys who do, so long as they leave your pond alone, right?  Ya, sure, don't worry, be happy, all they want is someone else's ponds so who cares?   And who cares when they ban bait fishing on the other 140 ponds as long as they're not your ponds, right? 

And then you talk about other people being selfish...unreal dude...just totally unreal...

[Mainehazmt]

Cant believe it Madawaska lake is on there too    What a WASTE!   I used to have a camp there I really do think they are nuts now!   That lake isn't "a famous trout habitat actually the lake needs draining and cleaning out  lol  its full of crap fish anyway

[Jig Master]

 Maineicefisha, you are correct

The propsed 39 waters are nothing and no big deal really, The real jewels are the 100 or so waters that they will go after next. This is all going on behind the scenes I read this on another web site last week, looks like we better get organized or be left with a bunch of Crap waters

Jig master out 

[Maineicefisha]

Jig Master, it always starts with a foot in the door, like banning this ugly black gun that really isn't sporting or whatever excuse they use, but that's only the tip of the iceberg.  What do you want to bet that after they get 100 more lakes, they go for a statewide ban?

[JDK]

I have to chuckle a little bit.  Our biologists (and others) have fought pretty hard to get Madawaska Lake open for icefishing.  They wanted to provide a fishery closer to Caribou and try to take some of the pressure off of the Fish River Chain.  Even went so far as to stock it with some half way decent sized trout.  Last year was the first time it was open and the fishing was fair at best.  Now if I am reading what is posted correctly, they are going to dissallow live fish as bait?  I also know that the campowners were adamantly opposed to the lake being open to icefishing and there are some very influential people that live there.  Biology or politics??   I wonder.

[billditrite]

it is mainly to prevent new bait species from being accidentally stocked into these waters...as far as other species well if ya dont have live bait ya shouldnt need a bucket 

[scottly0]

I truly believe that there are activist that want to stop hunting and fishing in Maine and some of them are biologists at IFW.  Accordingly, we should always beware of f"oot in the door" rules and regulations.  However, I do not think that this proposed rule is such a regulation.  It appears to simply be an attempt to preserve a very limited resource in very limited waters.  There are dumb rules, insidious rules and helpful rules.  I think it is the later here.