Author Topic: Yellow and White Perch Harvest Graph (Read 6706 times)

jbritch · « **on:** Mar 01, 2014, 07:05 AM »

So I read the responses to my post wondering about the white perch population and its effect on the yellow perch. The VT F&G biologists' data looks like this (forgive the redundancy again):

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After looking at the data F&G supplied, there doesn't seem to be an effect on the yellow perch by crappies or white perch or price or weather or anything else other than just plain mega-harvesting. There doesn't seem to be to any reason to limit anyone's daily limit of yellow perch, only the sale thereof. We can't clear cut our woods. Why do we clear cut our yellow perch? A reasonable quota based on hard data could be implemented to save commercial fishermen's livelihood and still have ample meals for recreational/subsistence fishermen.

dickbaker · « **Reply #1 on:** Mar 01, 2014, 01:43 PM »

J, Really interesting but is this just for Champlain and did they try to explain the peak and crash annual or biannual perch catch?

Dick

jbritch · « **Reply #2 on:** Mar 01, 2014, 03:26 PM »

The data that VT F&G has includes the inland harvest as well. NY does not keep records but there are at least an equal number of fish mongers on their side (when sold, it's all being called "Great Lakes white fish"). The guys I've been corresponding with seem to be biologists and some are more concerned with getting the lake swimmable for tourists (curbing the algae). I don't think any of them are really into analyzing the data and making bold recommendations so the answer is no, they are not trying to explain anything. There is a bill modification being circulated but there is little hope that it will be acted upon in the current session. Besides, it doesn't address the yellow perch at all. See? It'll take action from outside the agency to save the yellow perch.

seayaknh · « **Reply #3 on:** Mar 02, 2014, 09:48 AM »

One thing your data excludes is number of commercial fisherman. The drop in tonnage could simply be from less guys selling fish. The price per pound hardly makes commercial fishing profitable or attractive. These F&W charts are worthless as far as determining numbers of fish in the lake.

jbritch · « **Reply #4 on:** Mar 02, 2014, 10:36 AM »

There is no need to know the number of fishermen. This data is only about the number of pounds of fish being sold to and then resold by fish mongers on the Vermont side, period, that's all, not the number of fishermen, not the weather, not the price of fish, nothing else except the pounds of fish reported by the fish mongers. The cyclic nature of the fish harvest precludes that. (No one would presume that fishermen decide to not fish in a certain year because they fished the year before in a cyclical pattern year after year after year.) And, this data IS an indicator of the number of fish in the lake just like the number of fishermen on the ice is an indicator, the sales of fishing tackle in the area is an indicator, the price of fish is an indicator, and anecdotal evidence is an indicator, they're all indicators (not worthless at all). I think the protests are a mask for a real worry that the data may be indicating something real, something that we all should be concerned about (if not frantically shouting "the sky is falling").

There is a simple and common formula for determining the number of individuals in a given habitat; it's so simple that the F&G people must use it all the time. Here it is:

number of fish in habitat=number retrieved/tagged first time x number retrieved second time / number of tagged in second time

Biologists electro shock an area of water, retrieve and tag the fish, and let them go. They come back to the exact same area later, repeat the experiment exactly, and count the number of tagged fish. Simple. Does it tell you the exact number of fish in the lake, no, but is it another indicator, yes.

As far as the price per pound making the fishing profitable, just consider there were 6 million pounds of panfish traded during this period. Do the math on that one and remember to add in what was sold on the NY side. Presteve would not buy our fish if it were not profitable; it's profitable to them so they make it profitable for the fishermen and the fish mongers.

seayaknh · « **Reply #5 on:** Mar 02, 2014, 05:37 PM »

You are simply wrong when saying it's a indicator of how many fish in the lake. That data is incomplete for that purpose. It is just what it says...how much was reported sold...period.

seayaknh · « **Reply #6 on:** Mar 02, 2014, 05:48 PM »

Your indicators are pure assumptions not supported in any way by science. Guys buying fishing tackle is an indicator of fish population...are you serious? While I respect your position and concerns, the information you have provided here simply don't support that position.

jbritch · « **Reply #7 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 06:11 AM »

You can get "Statistics for Idiots" at Amazon dot com and read up on this yourself, especially the definition of "indicator".

perchhauler · « **Reply #8 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 07:16 AM »

wow, you just know everything and can never be wrong eh? your graphs and stats don't mean squat, get over it. I say go take a long walk from tabors till you find some perch.

TroutWhisperer · « **Reply #9 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 07:46 AM »

I honestly don't know why some people seemed to be worried about perch/panfish in Champlain. There are plenty of perch, crappie, seeds, gills, ect, ect. in Champlain.....plenty!

If you used to catch fish in a certain spot and now you don't catch any there.....it doesn't mean there's no fish in the lake. It simply means if you want to catch fish you need to look for a new spot.

There are plenty of factors that affect fish populations in specific locales....above and beyond pressure from anglers.

If you look at smaller bodies of water, you will find that perch populations are cyclical. One small lake may hold a great population of big YP for a year or two then may be overrun with dinks for a year or two. The simplest way to explain it is that it's "the cycle of life".

jbritch · « **Reply #10 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 07:48 AM »

Sorry if the suggestion was rude. I got out my Multivariate Analysis text book and found the definition of "indicator" for you.

An indicator is a dependent variable related to several independent variables and considered to have an inherent measure of association. Tackle sales is a dependent variable in that it depends on the economy, the number of fishermen, the perceived success from using the tackle (i.e. the number of fish), etc. I never said there was a cause and effect relationship, only that there was a relationship, which is obvious. However, a measure of association can be calculated and therefore is "supported ...by science". Tackle sales is indeed an indicator of fish population.

I am not really sure why some responses are so virulent. The pen is mightier than the sword. Graphs and stats do mean squat and will be the basis for decisions about our fishing made far away in Montpelier by people who have never been on the ice. Get over that.

seayaknh · « **Reply #11 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 08:17 AM »

Tackle sales are in no way an "indicator" of fish population. Your definition doesn't even support that. How much fishing tackle is sold would be an "indicator" of the growth or decline in number of people fishing. It's a really big stretch to associate that with fish population in Lake Champlain. Your case is very weak when you start using "indicators" that are 2-3 levels removed.

Biologist doing surveys by shocking or netting fish is an "indicator" of fish population. Even they will tell you its an "estimate", but one that at least is supported by real science. Math and algorithms alone are not the answer.

I dont think anyone here is trying to be rude to you. However, I think its important to point out that some of the information you are using to state your case is irrelevant.

My personal opinion, (and its just that, my opinion) is that most of the people on here that are crying about not catching fish and blaming commercial fishing, are just not fishing in productive areas. Most guys on here (and many not on here) are catching lots of fish. The pictures support that. My own trips have been very successful all year. On the other hand, guys that constantly fish the in areas that are the most easily accessed, over fished, or simply don't have the habitat to support the fish they are after; seem to be the guys who complain most. I have to agree with PerchHauler, go out and find the fish! If you PM me, I will tell you where I've had great success. I've directed guys to some very productive spots this year. There is enough fish for all of us!

Big Ben · « **Reply #12 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 08:20 AM »

Your tunnle vision is not allowing you to think about others questions.

At no point is there any response to length of ice season?

There is only a small fraction of fisherman compared to years ago.

Your talking about the impact of over fishing in the lake when most data points too invasive spieces having more effects on population.

I see you are set on your view, but I want others to read the lack of information your not providing.

I am not for or aginst buying or selling fish.

I would also like to point out they villages of ice shanties are gone on Champlain. Your 50 years to late to complain about over fishing.

If you can show the effects of over fishing in Vermont I love to see the facts. No more graphs please!

If you want to help fish population donate to LCWA!

We are catching bigger Lakers, Salmon, Walleye, Bass..... What ever is happening I like it!!!!

seayaknh · « **Reply #13 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 08:26 AM »

well said Ben!

seayaknh · « **Reply #14 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 08:27 AM »

JBritch

I sent you a PM offering to tell you where I have successfully caught hundreds of big perch. Check your message box.

Lord_of_the_Perch · « **Reply #15 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 09:16 AM »

You are wearing the heck out of this topic. I am not quite sure who you are trying to persuade or impress with this stuff; but commercial fishing is not going away anytime soon. If pulling and massaging fish harvest data makes you sleep better at night after an unsuccessful day on the ice; then go for it.

flagfishon · « **Reply #16 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 12:13 PM »

Like this:

http://tourism.devilslakend.com/news/devils-lake-12-inch-perch-at-record-levels/

Vtgooseman · « **Reply #17 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 06:43 PM »

Just a thought, why has the Cormorant not been brought up? Its said a single Cormorant can eat 1-1.5lbs a day. Now multiply that by the tens of thousands of them on the lake. Seems to me that they are catching WAY more pounds of fish daily than a few guys trying to make a buck. Yes, they are not eating many this time of year but what about the other 9 months of the year?

perchfry · « **Reply #18 on:** Mar 03, 2014, 09:08 PM »

That is wrong with the start of this subject VtGooseman. A couple of graphs do not tell the whole story you must review the whole ecosystem. Jbritch has good intention to sound an alarm but we should all take the time to learn about the pressures that change fish populations beyond what we harvest. There are many factors that have an effect on our fisheries and wildlife phosphorus pollution, algae, invasive species and bacteria. I have seen many changes in the Great Lakes and Lake Champlain in my lifetime.
The more we can learn the better for us to make decisions as fisherman. This should not be a single focus on harvest.

Lord_of_the_Perch · « **Reply #19 on:** Mar 04, 2014, 04:25 AM »

The reason Cormorants weren't brought up is because they aren't members of this forum.

Panfish hauler · « **Reply #20 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 10:29 AM »

Jbirtch you're numbers are way off I know the commercial fishery numbers pretty well and you're info is not even close to being write . You should really double check thing before you post them on a public forum in the 30 years I have been a fish Monger so you say it is a very stable fishery and 3 years ago was the best fishing I have seen in 30 years for Panfish . If you are not catching fish like you use to you need to consider all the changes our lake has gone thru in the last 10 years fish are in different areas now than they use to be because the main forage is now Alwifes instead of Smelts . The severe flooding the last couple years has also changed a lot of the lake places that use to hold fish now are silted up and don't hold fish . the fishery here in Vt. is a natural resource that is being harvested like it should be just like Maple Syrup , Logging ,Trapping they all bring money into our economy and yes there is profit to be made in it or no one would do it you should ask some of the bait shops that buy fish if they would be in business and or be able to sell products at the price they do now with out the income from buying fish . We have biologist that work for the state that know what is going on and it should be left to them to decide the health of our fishery and not someone that cant catch fish and unwilling to change or take advice from fishermen that are willing to share info .

Panfish hauler · « **Reply #21 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 11:56 AM »

Tbeaner be a little more specific how many what

Lord_of_the_Perch · « **Reply #22 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 01:50 PM »

tbeaner,
What the heck is a pin hooker?

bigredonice · « **Reply #23 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 02:03 PM »

couple things about champlain and perch harvest in general

1. The lake used to get exponentially more fishing pressure than it does now. It was not uncommon for EVERY SINGLE person in the community (including daughters, wives, grandparents) to go out and fish for perch 50-100 years ago. I have relatives in Chazy that have lived on the lake for generations, and they talk about how on saturdays when the ice was good, you would see people on the ice with tractors, cars, trucks, etc. think about all the old shanties that used to dot the shorelines. Every single one of those and more used to go out on the lake.

2. I don't think people quite understand how the perch populations work. These fish are being captured hook and line, an incredibly inefficient method of capture...its not like they are pulling gill nets.

3. Has anyone ever put an aquaview down on the perch schools, especially on the north end of the lake? Some of the schools stretch for ACRES. ACRES!!! We are talking hundreds of thousands of fish...in just one school.

jbritch · « **Reply #24 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 02:09 PM »

Panfishhauler, those numbers ARE the Vermont State biologists' numbers!!!!! I said that in the very first post nearly a month ago so an apology might be in order. What, did you think I made them up myself? God, this is getting pathetic. Maybe you should double check your own data before you post it on a public forum, ha! You guys are just scared that somebody will make you start paying income tax on the millions of dollars that have changed hands without one cent of it going back into the lake.

Panfish hauler · « **Reply #25 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 02:47 PM »

JBirtch I will not argue that the State gave you those numbers but I will argue that they are WRONG they have not got all the numbers in there for certain years . Income Taxes I have paid mine every year since I have been in business that I can tell you for sure . So when you say there is no tax paid you are wrong . tbeaner as far as the number of commercial fishermen in Vermont there are none what there is are Recreational fishermen that chose to sell some or all of there catch so they can afford to go fishing that's why Vt. does not sell a commercial license . Now if I had to guess how many recreational fishermen there are that sell there fish at one point or another I would say that it is 75 percent of the Panfishermen .

Panfish hauler · « **Reply #26 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 02:50 PM »

tbeaner if you don't like the way things are done here you are welcome to move to any of those states you mentioned

bigredonice · « **Reply #27 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 03:07 PM »

do some investigation... see how they run the regs in more lenient states...like where Set Lines are legal...commericial NETTING of walleyes and perch...snagging and selling catfish...and then you might begin to see that limited hook and line small time commericial fishing for a prey fish is not a big deal

Lord_of_the_Perch · « **Reply #28 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 04:01 PM »

THAT'S IT.................... ..................

I am gunna stop fishing and selling my fish, and grow and sell medical marajuana.

Panfish hauler · « **Reply #29 on:** Mar 05, 2014, 04:35 PM »

My books are open to the state any time they want check you all seem to forget this is a legal business we have no reason to hide anything and future more most fish are exported and records kept with Customs please tell me how you hade that

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Author Topic: Yellow and White Perch Harvest Graph (Read 6706 times)