Father and Son Die

[er-e-is]

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=28763708&nid=148&title=father-son-die-of-co-poisoning-while-camping


My prayers go out to the family and friends!

[pascoag icefisher]

That sucks.

[Oldbear]

Thats a reminder to all and my deepest sympathies to the family.

[bart]

My thoughts and prayers go out to their family and friends...

[Whopper Stopper]

Very sad.

       WS

[Redneck Fishfinder]

Wow... That's very sobering for guys who sleep in the shelter with the heater running. That could happen to any of us! Really scary... Condolences to the family.

[TeeBugg]

Thoughts and prayers go out to their family :/

[BC_ICE]

That's terrible news. Scary too being I use a propane heater also, but I do have the vents open.

[kpd145]

CO is the silent killer.

If it is any consolation, they felt nothing. Just went to sleep.

My thoughts are with the family, such a tragedy.

[bobberbill]

Condolences to the family. We're all aware, ...So sorry..

[mr.clean]

A reminder to all to be careful when using a heater. Condolences to the family and friends. If portable CO detectors are available it maybe a good idea to purchase one and have it with you in the shelter.
Steve

[SpitzoMT]

It's so sad to hear of tragedies such as this...Thoughts & prayers to the family/friends.

[pastaboy]

That is such a tragedy! Our thoughts and prayers go out to their family.

[lakerman]

thought most heaters now had a sensor thats shuts them off

[aj454]

Hate hearing stuff like this. Very Very sad. Thoughts and prayers to the family.

[BaitBucket]

thought most heaters now had a sensor thats shuts them off

CO2 weighs more than Oxygen. So as CO2 builds up it does so from the ground up.
In order for the heater to stay running it needs Oxygen to feed it. So once the CO2 gets higher than the heater its should, in theory, die out.

The only way I can see what happened here, which is VERY likely if camping. Is if they were lower than the heater. IE: They were on the ground in sleeping bags, and had the heater up on a milk crate to avoid accidental contact.

I always found it odd that they sell smoke alarms with CO2 detectors built in. If the CO2 reaches the level to trip your alarm on your ceiling, you are dead long before you would hear it. These combos are good to use in basements in case of a furnace malfunction and it starts pumping CO2 into your basement. When the CO2 hits the smoke/co2 alarm on the roof of the basement (which is below you) you will hear it in time.

If anyone here uses these CO2/Smoke detectors in their main living space they are useless. Go out and purchase stand alone CO2 alarms and put them floor level in each room. They are pretty cheap (~$15).

And as always, check monthly for batteries.

[jethro]

To elaborate on what Baitbucket said, the heaters do not have a CO2 shut off, they have a low oxygen shut off. Not the same thing at all. Like he said, once the heater is out of oxygen and shuts off, you are already well poisoned from CO2.

[Rebelss]

For everyone's info: CO2 has never really hurt anyone. CO2 is carbon dioxide, makes your pop and beer fizzy. CO is Carbon Monoxide, the nasty thing that blocks oxygen entry into the Hemoglobin and kills. From an earlier post of mine to a person asking about it:

 When CO is inhaled, it combines with the oxygen carrying hemoglobin of the blood, to form carboxyhemoglobin (COHb). Once combined with your hemoglobin, that hemoglobin can't carry oxygen to your system. Being a smoker, you already have higher levels of COHb. Every time you walk away from there, you're leaving with some damage to your system from O depletion. I'll bet you're at a good PPM of 200-300, which is considered life-threatening after 2-4 hours, depending on your size. You'll feel really tired/sleepy when it's hitting you, which can be deceiving. You don't instantly pass out as believed. I've seen far too much of it in my occupation. It isn't worth it. Always have ventilation in your shack, and my advice is never run a lantern in it in conjunction with a heater. Ya, I know, lots of folks do, and depend on the oxy-deplete sensors on some heaters to protect them, believing they also shut off because of CO, which is not true. If you ever have to pull that distinctive cherry-red body of a person out of somewhere that's died from it, you'll never forget it. Been there, done that. Be safe, and be alive.


Symptoms Associated With a Given Concentration of COHb

10% COHb - No symptoms. Heavy smokers can have as much as 9% COHb.
15% COHb - Mild headache.
25% COHb - Nausea and serious headache. Fairly quick recovery after treatment with oxygen and/or fresh air.
30% COHb - Symptoms intensify. Potential for long term effects especially in the case of infants, children, the elderly, victims of heart disease and pregnant women.
45% COHb - Unconsciousness
50+% COHb - Death


Just be really careful out there, people.

[Spider1]

very sad. My prayers go out to their family and friends.


-------------------


baitbucket. wrong.

carbon monoxide (not CO2) is produced when there is not enough oxygen to produce carbon dioxide (CO2) when burning carbon containing fuels. As the oxygen level decreases during burning, the carbon monoxide (CO) level in the exhaust increases. It would happen fast and it would overwhelm a small tent structure. CO is slightly more dense than air but it isn't going to settle at the bottom of a tent, especially with a heater running which will circulate the atmosphere in the small enclosure. The CO levels will be mostly constant within the small confines of a tent.



doctorgee. Actually, low oxygen sensors work. If the oxygen level gets low enough to retard burn enough to emit high CO levels, the unit will turn off before CO levels become too high, as long as the sensor is working properly. An alarm is much safer to have in the tent or enclosure and always have ventilation. You don't need much, but a positive airflow is needed.


Rebelss, good info. But also, CO2 can be dangerous. It's considered an asphyxiation gas. Basically, it won't kill you from poisoning like CO can but if the oxygen level in an enclosure is depleted and replaced with CO2, you will suffocate. But it'll be noticeably painful. So there usually isn't much danger unless you are trapped in an enclosed structure with no ventilation.

[BaitBucket]

very sad. My prayers go out to their family and friends.


-------------------


baitbucket. wrong.

carbon monoxide (not CO2) is produced when there is not enough oxygen to produce carbon dioxide (CO2) when burning carbon containing fuels. As the oxygen level decreases during burning, the carbon monoxide (CO) level in the exhaust increases. It would happen fast and it would overwhelm a small tent structure. CO is slightly more dense than air but it isn't going to settle at the bottom of a tent, especially with a heater running which will circulate the atmosphere in the small enclosure. The CO levels will be mostly constant within the small confines of a tent.

Im not sure these small heaters (without blowers mind you) move enough air to circulate the air enough to keep it from settling. However if your statement is true than wouldnt we be dead/passed out long before the sensor in the heater tripped it off?

[800stealth]

Very sad to hear. A family of 3 died from CO poisoning a couple of days ago in NH... A leaking furnace vent pipe filled the home and someone had removed the batteries from the CO detectors.

[Lifeguard]

Very sad indeed, and so easily preventable.  A battery operated CO alarm, and they'd still be alive.  We use one at our off grid cabin and it saved us once.  1 am while everyone was sleeping it went off.  Turns out the propane fridge burner was dirty and was producing carbon monoxide.  Now the fridge had a CO safety shut off on it as well that had turned off the fridge by the time we got up, but it was a reminder how easy something like this can happen.  Below is a link to the one we have in our cabin.  Get a battery powered CO alarm and USE IT!! If you can afford the heater and the shack, you can afford the alarm that could save your life.

http://www.comforthouse.com/kidde9000146.html

[chasdc1]

How sad.

[TheThinIce]

Very sad. Thoughts and prayers to their family and friends.

[delta9]

Very sad.

       WS

X2

[Spider1]

Im not sure these small heaters (without blowers mind you) move enough air to circulate the air enough to keep it from settling. However if your statement is true than wouldnt we be dead/passed out long before the sensor in the heater tripped it off?

my mistake, CO is slightly less dense than air, not more dense. It would rise, not settle. Molar mass of air is aprox. 28.8 g/mol while the molar mass of CO is 28 g/mol.


It really wouldn't be a blower per-say that would circulate the air in the tent. Like you said, most don't have blowers. But heat rises and cold settles. The heat from the heater and the cold from... well, everything else, would keep the air moving and circulating around the tent. It's possible that the oxygen levels in the tent were very low because of a lack of ventilation which could have caused the higher levels of CO and a lack of ventilation increased the level of CO to be produced. The perfect storm. The article doesn't say what brand or type of heater was used, but I bet it didn't have a sensor on it.

no, you wouldn't be dead or passed out before the sensor tripped. A properly operating sensor would trip long before the levels of CO got high enough to incapacitate you. A CO alarm works the same way as a sensor, only it sounds an alarm instead of tripping a valve. Personally, I believe in redundant systems, have both... with enough ventilation. Also beware, some CO detectors have a shelf life. Make sure you check yours to be sure it's still good.

The thing about CO is that it oxidizes pretty readily. Introduce air and the oxygen attaches to the CO and forms CO2. With proper ventilation the stove would have worked properly and would probably only produce 5 or 10 ppm of CO, and that CO would have oxidized pretty quickly.

[smitty]

CO2 weighs more than Oxygen. So as CO2 builds up it does so from the ground up.
In order for the heater to stay running it needs Oxygen to feed it. So once the CO2 gets higher than the heater its should, in theory, die out.

The only way I can see what happened here, which is VERY likely if camping. Is if they were lower than the heater. IE: They were on the ground in sleeping bags, and had the heater up on a milk crate to avoid accidental contact.

I always found it odd that they sell smoke alarms with CO2 detectors built in. If the CO2 reaches the level to trip your alarm on your ceiling, you are dead long before you would hear it. These combos are good to use in basements in case of a furnace malfunction and it starts pumping CO2 into your basement. When the CO2 hits the smoke/co2 alarm on the roof of the basement (which is below you) you will hear it in time.

If anyone here uses these CO2/Smoke detectors in their main living space they are useless. Go out and purchase stand alone CO2 alarms and put them floor level in each room. They are pretty cheap (~$15).

And as always, check monthly for batteries.

Awesome advise baitbucket !!!!!

smitty

[BojiHawk]

Another tidbit....what kind of heater was it?  Several old styles of heater have been recalled for this very reason. Many are still around in garages and stuff and I've seen several in use just this year.  This is why I like a catalytic heater.  Not many BTU's but far less harmful gasses. And they don't set a sleeve on fire for brushing across it.

[FishingSpud]

What a tragedy...so sorry for the family.

[camo man]

Very sad, You never know when its your time. We need to be very thankful that we get to do the things we enjoy in life.   Stay safe on the ice everyone,and my prayers go out to the family.