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Author Topic: Moral Dilemna  (Read 9854 times)

Offline Santo180

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #120 on: Nov 23, 2011, 02:00 PM »
Quote from: Indie on Nov 23, 2011, 09:39 AM
Wisconsin law:

SUBCHAPTER III
MISAPPROPRIATION
943.20 943.20  Theft.
943.20(1)(1)  Acts. Whoever does any of the following may be penalized as provided in sub. (3):
943.20(1)(a) (a) Intentionally takes and carries away, uses, transfers, conceals, or retains possession of movable property of another without the other's consent and with intent to deprive the owner permanently of possession of such property.

Since the value is under $2,500, its a class A Misdemeanor.


Playing devils advocate........you cannot say he intentionally shipped himself a 2nd unit.  I don't have a recent copy of the ny penal code, but I'm pretty sure if what was "found" is less than a certain $ amount there is no legal recourse to return it or even attempt to return it.  After that threshold you have to at least make an attempt to return it to the rightful owner.  I agree the moral thing to do would be return it, but I simply don't believe he'd risk any criminal charges.
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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #121 on: Nov 23, 2011, 02:38 PM »
Quote from: Indie on Nov 23, 2011, 02:31 PM
The intent is to knowingly deprive another of their goods, when you are made aware, notify the rightful owner.

This happened to me a month ago I sent my reel for service and it was shipped to a man in Florida by Penn. Luckily the man did the legal thing and rightfully returned the reel. He was also a customer who had sent out a large batch of reels for service.

Regardless of the value there shouldn't be much debate on the definition of theft.

I've eaten a grape at the supermarket, yes that's theft, but unlikely to be prosecuted.

So, for you, the value/amount of the "theft" makes a difference?
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Offline UP jigstick

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #122 on: Nov 23, 2011, 03:01 PM »
Like politics and/or religion it seems we all have our varied opinions on this subject.  ;)
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Offline Santo180

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #123 on: Nov 23, 2011, 03:10 PM »
Quote from: UP jigstick on Nov 23, 2011, 03:01 PM
Like politics and/or religion it seems we all have our varied opinions on this subject.  ;)

My opinion is that it's the moral thing to do.  I'm just doubtful of any legal obligation in this scenario.  Of course I could be wrong as I am not a lawyer.
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Offline kasilofchrisn

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #124 on: Nov 23, 2011, 03:57 PM »
Quote from: UP jigstick on Nov 23, 2011, 01:41 PM
kasilofchrisn

In the scenario you have given, you are correct. The law pertains to unsolicited items. Something different than the situation here in this thread. Try this one.
 I want a new widget, I order, and pay for, the $250.00 widget A from widgets-r-us. My package arrives and low and behold I have received the ultra deluxe $2500.00 widget E. Am I entitled to keep widget E and/or does widgets-r-us have the legal right to recover the item?

Just in case you didn't read the last link I provided here's another link that may help you this is from the FTC (Federal Trade Commission).
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/products/pro15.shtm

According to the federal Goverment and federal law you may keep the $2500 ultra deluxe widget at no charge to you.
That my friend is federal law. Follow the links I have provided if you have any questions. You should review the FTC webpage it is all spelled out there.
As I previously stated it does not include genuine shipping errors and that is also spelled out on their website.
If you don't trust/believe me you can read all about it on the FTC website via the link I posted.
The law is the law and was designed to protect us from fraudlent companies. Widgets-R-us probably knows the laws as well(or they should) . They are hoping (in your scenario) you don't know the law and will help them out. It is your choice as to wether or not you decide to send back the ultra deluxe widget.
Again this is not my opinion it is federal law.
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Offline rgfixit

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #125 on: Nov 23, 2011, 04:04 PM »
Great, now we have a bunch of outhouse lawyer opinions. let it die!

RG
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Offline Nevada Ice

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #126 on: Nov 23, 2011, 04:18 PM »
I think you should call the retailer, explain that you recieved extra goods. If they say to keep it that is great, keep it and take a kid fishing.
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Offline LT

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #127 on: Nov 23, 2011, 04:19 PM »
Quote from: rgfixit on Nov 23, 2011, 04:04 PM
Great, now we have a bunch of outhouse lawyer opinions. let it die!
RG
A-men RG  :tipup:
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Offline kasilofchrisn

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #128 on: Nov 23, 2011, 04:22 PM »
Quote from: rgfixit on Nov 23, 2011, 04:04 PM
Great, now we have a bunch of outhouse lawyer opinions. let it die!

RG

Absolutely rgfixit!
I just wanted to be sure people knew their rights as United States citizens under United States law.
Besides he already posted his answer from calling Cabelas.
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Offline Iceassin

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #129 on: Nov 23, 2011, 05:35 PM »
The topic of this thread is Moral Dilemna...not what the laws are or states. I don't need a law that tells me what my moral or ethical obligation is...all I need is a conscience.
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Offline kasilofchrisn

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #130 on: Nov 23, 2011, 07:57 PM »
Quote from: Iceassin on Nov 23, 2011, 05:35 PM
The topic of this thread is Moral Dilemma...not what the laws are or states. I don't need a law that tells me what my moral or ethical obligation is...all I need is a conscience.

Yes your conscience should tell you what is wrong or right morally and ethically.
Some people seem to feel keeping it was morally wrong as if the item was stolen if he kept it and I was just pointing out that it was indeed not stolen by the letter of the law.
That may ease the conscience of some who have or may in the future have a package delivered with items inside they may not have ordered.
You and others may still choose to return any items received but not ordered that is up to you and your conscience.
But at least you and others reading this now know that if the item is kept it is not stolen or considered theft if it is not returned. At least by any laws or LEO of the United States.
Knowing that has eased my mind the two times I have received items not ordered. One was a duplicate of a previous order I had received a month earlier and one was a Cabelas mistake that was fixed even before I knew there was a problem as I had posted earlier. Both were mistakes of $50 or less on the part of the shipper.
I was not concerned with trying to contact them and arrange for shipping or feeling like I had stolen something. Neither contacted me about the orders either.
Now if these items were of a greater value say several hundred dollars I would have gone through the trouble of contacting them and arranging something. But $50 nope not bothering my conscience one bit.
So to sum it up The extra rod if he had kept it was not Stolen or considered theft and smbrickner would not be a thief. By the letter of the law anyway.
I would also venture to guess any company that ships orders knows this is the law.
If not they probably shouldn't be shipping items in the mail in the first place.
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Offline lefty2053

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #131 on: Nov 23, 2011, 08:01 PM »
smbrickner,bet you never knew there would be so many responses and now on 7 pages. 8 after tonight most likely. Most of us already know what you did and don't offer any more ideas.. You the man.
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Offline wyoutdoors

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #132 on: Nov 23, 2011, 08:20 PM »
Not to further one argument over another but as far as mail order marketing goes (and I've had experience with this form of marketing in the past), comparing the keeping of an unsolicited item through the mail to picking up a dropped wallet, or overpaying a cashier is not similar. Items received through the mail without ordering them, by law, is not a theft as it relates to the misdemeanor mentioned above. By law, one can "Legally" keep the item. Doesn't mean it's right or correct to keep it. This particular law was enacted to protect consumers from receiving items not ordered, and then being charged for not "returning" them. A great way to amass millions in mail-order marketing! Ship it and bill it!

So... The intent of the law was to protect consumers from fraudulent mail-order scams, not meant nor intended as a law for someone to retain an unsolicited item as some might want to interpret it. If I were to receive an "expensive" dog collar out of the blue with a $75.00 charge which was in reality a .25 Made-in-China piece of trash, I wouldn't be responsible for the $75.00 charge and I would incur no cost to ship it back. Mail-order FRAUD.

For myself, if I receive "extra" items in an order I placed, it was in fact a mistake and not an unsolicited item out of the blue, not a mail-order scam.

Some may say the glass is half full and some may say the glass is half empty. Like it or not, your choice to keep or correct a "mistake" reveals much about your character, regardless of the intent of the mail order law.
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Offline UP jigstick

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #133 on: Nov 23, 2011, 08:25 PM »
wyoutdoors, very well said and spot on! :clap:
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Offline sprkplug

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #134 on: Nov 23, 2011, 09:49 PM »
For me, wyoutdoors nailed it. Just because the law says I CAN do something, doesn't  necessarily mean I SHOULD do it.  I want to believe that folks smarter than myself meant for the laws of this country to be implemented, and tempered by, common sense and moral obligation.  Now, literal interpretation is the practice, where every word is scrutinized and examined, in an effort to absolve one's self of doing what's right. We've all heard the saying "Let your conscience be your guide". I would like to think that still applies.

As for me, I try to teach my kids that just because it's legal, doesn't mean it's always right, or fair, and it is not a free pass to do whatever you want.

Well done, smbrickner.... I think you made the right choice.
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Offline SPADED

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #135 on: Nov 24, 2011, 12:34 AM »
Quote from: Indie on Nov 23, 2011, 02:42 PM
Can't a sinner be forgiven??  ;D

sounds like the whole " well if i dont sin , he died in vein right?!?! "

i think you did the right thing man, but i think they should have let you keep the rod.
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Offline kb

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #136 on: Nov 24, 2011, 04:44 AM »
The idea of a forum is to discuss ideas.  This has simply turned into a discussion of moral vs legal opinions.

I for one enjoy reading and hearing others concepts of social obligation. If you feel that this is beating a dead horse, or have grown tired of the discussion, then unsubscribe from this thread, and move on.  Leave it to the members who are interested.

I know that I do not read every thread posted, many do not interest me, so I simply skip those.  If you dont have anything relevant to the discussion other than to complain about it, find a thread that does interest you.  Leave this one to whom it does interest.
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Offline Mainehazmt

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #137 on: Nov 24, 2011, 07:09 AM »
Quote from: rgfixit on Nov 23, 2011, 04:04 PM
Great, now we have a bunch of outhouse lawyer opinions. let it die!

RG
get it right RG it's a bunch of iceshanty lawyers!
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Offline Iceassin

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #138 on: Nov 24, 2011, 07:26 AM »
Quote from: kasilofchrisn on Nov 23, 2011, 07:57 PM
Yes your conscience should tell you what is wrong or right morally and ethically.
Some people seem to feel keeping it was morally wrong as if the item was stolen if he kept it and I was just pointing out that it was indeed not stolen by the letter of the law.
That may ease the conscience of some who have or may in the future have a package delivered with items inside they may not have ordered.
You and others may still choose to return any items received but not ordered that is up to you and your conscience.
But at least you and others reading this now know that if the item is kept it is not stolen or considered theft if it is not returned. At least by any laws or LEO of the United States.
Knowing that has eased my mind the two times I have received items not ordered. One was a duplicate of a previous order I had received a month earlier and one was a Cabelas mistake that was fixed even before I knew there was a problem as I had posted earlier. Both were mistakes of $50 or less on the part of the shipper.
I was not concerned with trying to contact them and arrange for shipping or feeling like I had stolen something. Neither contacted me about the orders either.
Now if these items were of a greater value say several hundred dollars I would have gone through the trouble of contacting them and arranging something. But $50 nope not bothering my conscience one bit.
So to sum it up The extra rod if he had kept it was not Stolen or considered theft and smbrickner would not be a thief. By the letter of the law anyway.
I would also venture to guess any company that ships orders knows this is the law.
If not they probably shouldn't be shipping items in the mail in the first place.

In my opinion, stealing is a deliberate act at obtaining something that does not belong to you with no intent of returning it...that's not what he did...he received a mistake made by someone else.

And by the second statement here, the higher the ticket item; the higher the needle on the conscience/moral/ethics meter? Guess everything does have it's price   ;)

I will also agree, a good debate is fuel for the mind. And if this topic bothers you...move on. There are plenty of other threads on this site you can read and participate in. So far, this one has been quite civil with no personal bashing or name calling... :clap:

Time to put the bird in the oven...Happy Thanksgiving all  :)
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Offline bart

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #139 on: Nov 24, 2011, 07:45 AM »
RG, "let it die!" Each thread should become thread-bared by its own volition, not die!


Thanks, Mainehazmt, IceShanty Lawyer smells much better...


FISHFORPIKE is right, "We NEED ice  --- Badly."


With that said I'm moving on, HAPPY THANKSGIVING to eveyone!
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Offline Fatfish

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #140 on: Nov 24, 2011, 10:29 AM »
Your moral obligation is to at least call and tell them of the situation. If they want it back,they will tell you. Get this,in my lifetime I have found 2 billfolds,I allways said that if I ever find one ,I would keep it. Well I did NOT,I got the person that lost it ,and returned it. Even though I have had one stolen from me. That really sucks. Do what is right ,in the end you will be rewarded.    Jerry
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Offline Mainehazmt

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #141 on: Nov 24, 2011, 10:35 AM »
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Offline DasRottweiler

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #142 on: Nov 24, 2011, 10:36 AM »
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Offline Iceassin

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #143 on: Nov 24, 2011, 10:55 AM »
Ok, turkeys in the oven so thought I'd put a little twist in the topic...moral vs. legal and toss in the business side:

Say Joe places an order with "Company X". When it arrives, he finds that an extra "Item Y" was sent by mistake. Around the same time Bill receives a package from X but his Item Y is missing. Joe decided to keep his "gift" and Bill calls X and tells them he didn't receive his, so X made good on it and sent him one...so what happens?

3 items were sent but only 2 were ordered and paid for. Now it becomes a supply and demand thing, and inventory doesn't know or care about the difference between moral and legal; it just sees that the demand has gone up...and so goes the price for the next guy.
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Offline Iceassin

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #144 on: Nov 24, 2011, 10:58 AM »
...and I repeat

I will also agree, a good debate is fuel for the mind. And if this topic bothers you...move on. There are plenty of other threads on this site you can read and participate in. So far, this one has been quite civil with no personal bashing or name calling...
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Offline pirkaus

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #145 on: Nov 24, 2011, 11:26 AM »
Quote from: Iceassin on Nov 24, 2011, 10:58 AM
...and I repeat

I will also agree, a good debate is fuel for the mind. And if this topic bothers you...move on. There are plenty of other threads on this site you can read and participate in. So far, this one has been quite civil with no personal bashing or name calling...

Well said,
A civil exchange of one's point of view, with no personal attacks in a thread as pointed as this one, is rare.
A personal decision, discussed openly in a public forum, agreeing or disagreeing with anyone's point is also your choice.
This thread will move when the discussion is exhausted.   Moral verses legal is always an interesting topic, and a good judge of one's character, is to be able to debate civilly, and intelligently.
Pirk
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Offline OldSailor

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #146 on: Nov 24, 2011, 04:13 PM »
Y'all have managed to ride this poor old DEAD horse for a very long ways. I sure as heck hope that ice comes quickly so that we can all get on with the business (and pleasure) of ice fishing!!  LOL... You ice heads are bored and need to get out on the ice!! Just send me the rod and start a different thread.....   :icefish:
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Offline Iceassin

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #147 on: Nov 25, 2011, 12:44 AM »
Quote from: OldSailor on Nov 24, 2011, 04:13 PM
Y'all have managed to ride this poor old DEAD horse for a very long ways. I sure as heck hope that ice comes quickly so that we can all get on with the business (and pleasure) of ice fishing!!  LOL... You ice heads are bored and need to get out on the ice!! Just send me the rod and start a different thread.....   :icefish:

Then why are you here? Respond to topic or find another to your liking...your opinion has nothing to do with this one  ???
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Offline rrw

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #148 on: Nov 25, 2011, 01:12 AM »
so what did you decide to do?
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Offline smbrickner

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Re: Moral Dilemna
« Reply #149 on: Nov 25, 2011, 08:22 AM »
Shipping label came Wendseday.  Sent it back.  Just waiting for the gift card so I can turn around and order more stuff.
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