Need some feedback NY anglers

[doctariAFC]

Not sure how many of you have been following the minn ow saga, but I'd suspect many are.  A public comment period recently closed concerning new proposed fishing regs, and one of the changes proposed is to extend the valid period of that receipt for certified disease-free minnows from 7 days to 10 days.  In my opinion, a good step forward.

However, as a member of WNY Citizens Baitfish Committee, we are pushing, with the help of NY Sea Grant, for the NYS DEC to establish a Lake Erie corridor for baitfish use and transport, similar to what our neighboring great lakes states have done.

What we are aiming to do is allow anglers that collect their own emerald shiners to be able to transport them in their vehicles from their place of collection on the Lake Erie waterways, inculding the Upper Niagara River, and be able to transport them from the 190/ 90 and roads west to the lake.  This way you could collect your own minnows at foot of Ontario Street in Buffalo and travel on down to Sturgeon Point to use fishing on Lake Erie.  Corridor would extend to the PA line. 

Part 2 of this would be to allow bait dealers to sell uncertified emerald shiners designated as Great Lakes Bait ONLY.  Sale of baitfish would have to happen in a location separate from any certified minnow sales, and again, the same transport corridor rules in effect.

Part 1 may be coming together sooner, rather than later.  Part 2 is a bit more difficult.

So, the Q's I need feedback on are as follows:

Does this idea make sense to you guys?

Would this be a benefit to the Lake Erie anglers and restore some economic activity?

Can we, as anglers, abide by the transport limitations, understanding that VHS is a severe fish pathogen and we don't want our waterways compromised...

Any other additional feedback is appreciated, or if you have Q's please feel free to ask.  I've been a little up to it with Big Game Hunting efforts and I apologize for getting this info out to you a bit aged, as we met with DEC and NY Sea Grant back in June.  However, now is as good a time as any to start getting some feedback from the ranks....

Thanks and Merry Christmas....

Rich Davenport
WNY Citizens Baitfish Committee - Economic Impact Specialist

[Captain1978]

I'm all for the 10 day rule !!! Bring it on 

[Raquettedacker]

I'm all for the 10 day rule !!! Bring it on 

I second that......

[fingerlaker]

10 days works for me...at least better than 7 days for sure

[JerryofWNY]

Rich,

I also think the 10 day rule makes sense. As a Lake erie perch herder, I strongly support the Lake Erie corridor.

[bird21s]

questions.
1.) are people the biggest threat to spreading vhs or do birds play an even more severe role.
2.) do you know if the state is doing anything to fix the problem, other than the bait rule.
3.) how long are the bait shops allowed to keep 7 day bait.
4.) where does the certified bait come from, is it bread in captivity.
5.) what waters are infected with vhs in ny.
6.) who distributes the certified bait, and are they an independent company or state.

sorry but i have alota questions on this vhs, as i dont totally understand the issue. i would think they could just deem certain waters safe to trap outa and others not. i think theres a hidden agenda, like NY being BROKE!!!

[BIGFISH]

am for it

[prchslyr]

I think bird21s asked a lot of q's that we would like answers to. Of course we would like to see the bait regs loosened up a bit but of course protect the future of fishing. Chock up another vote for 10 days.

[NatefishNY]

10 days would be great...

[pikemaster0607]

sounds good to meee

[rgfixit]

"I've been a little up to it with Big Game Hunting efforts and I apologize for getting this info out to you a bit aged, as we met with DEC and NY Sea Grant back in June.  However, now is as good a time as any to start getting some feedback from the ranks...."

Seems the majority of what WAS proposed...back in June.....was only to benefit Lake Erie fisherman. Does little or nothing for the rest of us.

Why are you posting this again? This was over with 7 months ago.

It stayed 7days and that's it!

RG

[SpEeD]

It's still not enough,does nothing for us Pike fisherman paying the big bucks for minnows who can keep them alive for weeks and the whole regulation is still way overboard We had a couple vhs die-off's what a couple years ago and not much since then as mother nature is controlling this disease NOT NYS DEC

STILL REQUIRE BAIT SHOPS TO SELL CERTIFIED BAITS BUT DITCH THE STUPID RECIEPT\EXPIRATION CRUD ALTOGETHER    KISS

[Zern]

 part 1) I am for the extending to 10 days.

Part 2) Not so sure about. I don't trust someone to carry them outside of the corridor. I understand what someone said about the birds however I don't think they need our help. The DEC is battling all kinds of suff with less and less money

 I don't fish Erie but I want to support my brother fisherman.

 I thing Jerryofwny ask some good questions.

 Just my 2 coppers worth
 mark

[doctariAFC]

"I've been a little up to it with Big Game Hunting efforts and I apologize for getting this info out to you a bit aged, as we met with DEC and NY Sea Grant back in June.  However, now is as good a time as any to start getting some feedback from the ranks...."

Seems the majority of what WAS proposed...back in June.....was only to benefit Lake Erie fisherman. Does little or nothing for the rest of us.

Why are you posting this again? This was over with 7 months ago.

It stayed 7days and that's it!

RG

wrong.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/57347.html

The regs were proposed in August and comments closed in October.  And it "hasn't stayed 7 days", no announcements have been made on this as of yet, at least according to Patty Riexinger.

In terms of the baitfish corridor, something is coming on that, but, as of October 19, the issue has been kind of hung up with the change in Fisheries Chief, Steve Hurst, who had to be replaced due to issues with his CC exam. 

This stuff is going on now, the meeting was 7 months ago, but things don't happen in government like they do in McDonalds.  When the round of proposals came through in August, nothign was mentioned concerning a lake Erie corridor, and we (Erie County) submitted an emergency resolution to the NYSCC in September, which was passed unanimously by NYSCC.  However, the efforts with the Emergency Resolution caused some serious confusion, which has been allayed, but we still see little movement on this one.

I am asking for feedback because if we in WNY would like to have the opportunity to use emerald shiners for perch and other great lakes species, we do need to collect them locally, as bait dealers have a real hard time keeping these minnows alive once the thermometer climbs.  Bear in mind a baitfish transport corridor does exist for the Hudson area, but not for Gret Lakes, despite all other Great Lakes states creating a corridor to address the unique demands of these fisheries.

And we may need grass roots involvement to push this one through.

To address the Q's (great Q's, too) from Bird21, as follows:

1 - People are a significant threat with the top spread vector for VHS being live minnows.  We are not the only threat, and even DEC fisheries management work can inadvertently introduce VHS IVb to inland waters, and they have changed many of their own protocols to address this potential.  Birds, not so much, as they haven't seen the pathogen survive through the digestion process, but that doesn't mean a gull or kingfisher couldn't drop a fish from one water to another.  Of more concern are the interconnected waterways/ canals/ etc.  But the top spread vector is live fish, in particular bait.

ALSO - ALTHOUGH THE REGS ADOPTED IN 2006 WERE IN RESPONSE TO VHS, THE REGS ARE NOT VHS-SPECIFIC, RATHER SEVERAL DIFFERENT PATHOGENS ARE COVERED AND HOPED TO BE PREVENTED FROM SPREADING THROUGH SAID REGS

2 - What can the State do to "fix" this type of problem?  We're dealing with microbes and virulents....  I am not speaking of preventing future invasives from entering our waterways, as I assume the Q is directed at an existing problem.  A law did get passed in NYS to require all freighters to treat their ballast water, and I do believe all vessels must have ballast treatment systems installed and operating by 2011.  I'd have to verify the language of the law (which was an effort started by Assemblyman Dick Smith from Hamburg over 10 years ago.)

3 - Bait shops have < 30 days to sell inventories, as each lot of certified baitfish received from a wholesaler carries with it a 30 days from certified disease-free time clock on it.  Actual time period for bait retailers to sell each shipment of bait varies depending on when they receive the order.  They could have 25 or 26 days to sell, or could have 5 days to sell (although that is probably pretty rare).  Their expiration date and ours (our receipt) is not related, nor connected.

4 - Certified bait comes from a variety of sources.  Some are raised in bait ponds, and other species are collected from non-infected VHS waters.  Many bait wholesalers are from Michigan and Wisconsin.  All depends on the bait being bought and time of year.  Considering the cost of testing each lot collected for sale, this condition favors the larger suppliers of bait, rather than small local baitfish concerns.  Testing also requires 28 days (2 double blind tests, each requiring 14 days to complete the cell culture).

5 - Lake Erie, Lake Ontario and their tributaries, Conesus Lake, Skaneatles Lake, St. Lawrence River, Seneca-Cayuga Canal, and a private pond in Ransomville, NY.  No new cases of VHS outbreaks have been reported even in these infected waters since 2006/ 07.  This includes in other states that share our great lakes, too.

6 - See answer 4.  Private companies.  Testing protocols in place for the 8 Great Lakes States since emergency order from USDA APHIS division came down in October 2006.  NYS regs came into being in November 2006, emergency basis, being codified in spring of 2007.

Yes, there are a lot of Q's concerning VHS, but, again, the regulations are to prevent the spread of fish pathogens, not just VHS.  If you need a link to these regs and the list of pathogens being tested for, let me know.

Thanks

[doctariAFC]

part 1) I am for the extending to 10 days.

Part 2) Not so sure about. I don't trust someone to carry them outside of the corridor. I understand what someone said about the birds however I don't think they need our help. The DEC is battling all kinds of suff with less and less money

 I don't fish Erie but I want to support my brother fisherman.

 I thing Jerryofwny ask some good questions.

 Just my 2 coppers worth
 mark

Nice feedback, thanks much.

Great Lakes bait corridors are already in place in Canada and the other 7 Great Lakes states, just not in NY.  We have asked to start with Lake Erie to go slow and careful, although I'd rather see a Lake Erie corridor and a Lake Ontario corridor, too.

One of the concerns fro the DEC is once this happens everyone will want a corridor, and the DEC doesn't want to start painting red lines around every lake, so we suggested a test period on Lake Erie, well bench-marked, to see how the anglers would handle it.  If no ill-effects then we could see transport rules for local bait on local waterways...

Q 2 - news flash - its already going on.  Law breakers are law breakers.  We have rules setting limits on fish, and lawbreakers don't obey them....  But we have not had any outbreaks, nor any reported spread since 2007's watchful eyes, which is great news and very lucky on our part.  Either that, or the issue VHS IVb truly is was a bit overblown (like bird flu and swine flu?), but I won't hammer them too hard as the Dept did admit during the emergency reg process they knew very little about this pathogen...  But, as we learn, we also must be smart enough to adapt regs and account for more facts understood.  The prohibition is only impacting the many solid, caring members of our angling community.  The "bad apples" could care less.  This is true the world over.

Nevertheless, one element that the DEC and the organized anglers agree upon is educating our ranks, and we are certainly gearing this one up, and we will have some significant help from SUNY and the Sea Grant folks.  Education is a must....

[doctariAFC]

Also, now is the time to get moving on these issues as to have something in place for the Spring 2010/ Summer 2010 fishing season, or at the very worst get something into the reg books for the 2010/ 2011 season.

Again, this stuff doesn't happen overnight.  We're taking this one to the next level.

[trapper2000]

hey doc thank you  for  getting so involved  man , i salute  you for your  efferts ,  could you please  pm me i  find yahoo a easier  way to talk 

[doctariAFC]

10 day rule is a start.  There should be no receipt law expiration.  I still say if vhs is as big a threat as people make it out to be, every state should have certified bait laws through the country.  If every state had certified bait laws, bait I buy in VT would be good in CT and bait in MA would be good in NY.  And a certified bait receipt wouldn't need to expire.  If I provide a receipt for 3 dozen large shiners from 3 weeks ago and my bucket has 1.5 dozen large shiners, I should be perfectly legal.  If you have 4 dozen, you get busted.  My bait isn't going to develop vhs in my basement.  Those that trap bait illegally, will continue to do so.  Those are the ones that need to be targeted.  It's ridiculous, I have a bait shop in VT less than 10 minutes from where I live that sells certified bait.  Yet I need to drive a half hour away to other bait places in NY, because somehow NY certified bait is "better" than certified bait in VT.  The more I look into it, the more I begin to wonder if it's just a way to keep money flowing in the state you live.

Interesting, and to a degree, you have a point.  Remember, the original order that shut down interstate transport of live fish (tons of different species) was issued by the USDA, and is Federal in nature covering the 8 great lakes states.  Its a bit more than just buying bait here and there, and with VHS (all types) identified as a "reportable disease" to the UN's Plant and animal health division, worldwide, it is pretty serious.

However, you stumbled upon a weakness in the efforts with receipts and expirations, etc.  The intent is to assure the bait being used has been tested and cleared.  Another regulation impacting the bait dealrs is that no uncertified bait may be sold on the same premises as certified bait, otherwise all bait that came in certified cannot be assured as certified due to potentials for water comingling and one minnow jumping into another holding tank...

But, let's think about this one.  You buy your certified bait from a bait dealer, either put in your bucket or in an air bag.  What is the first thing most anglers do when they arrive to their fishing spot?  Do we all not CHANGE THE WATER?  If you do, guess what, your receipt and the certified disease-free assurance is out the window.  This is why the regulation is a joke.  And is why it is truly unenforceable.  The expiration date was to prevent abuse (buy minnows and then collect your own and masquerade them as being bought.)  But, reality is law breakers don't care, and things you must do as a law-biding angler to actually use the bait alive and keep them alive will indeed make that certification completely void, but how does an ECO prove it?  Hence unenforceable.

[doctariAFC]

questions.
1.) are people the biggest threat to spreading vhs or do birds play an even more severe role.
2.) do you know if the state is doing anything to fix the problem, other than the bait rule.
3.) how long are the bait shops allowed to keep 7 day bait.
4.) where does the certified bait come from, is it bread in captivity.
5.) what waters are infected with vhs in ny.
6.) who distributes the certified bait, and are they an independent company or state.

sorry but i have alota questions on this vhs, as i dont totally understand the issue. i would think they could just deem certain waters safe to trap outa and others not. i think theres a hidden agenda, like NY being BROKE!!!

For your reading pleasure

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/25328.html

You can also get a ton of information from NY Sea Grant, just follow this link, too..

http://www.seagrant.sunysb.edu/glsportfish/article.asp?ArticleID=36

Enjoy...

[rikrad1]

It makes alot of sense to use the minnows from lake erie in the erie tribs but I doubt this state has a thread of common sense left with all that it does. I fly fish alot and the minnows are in the tribs from lake erie they spawn too. But don't get caught with a bucket of minnows and no reciept. I was in the small boat harbor ice fishing two winters ago and the DEC guy wanted to see my tip ups. He asked me where I got the monnows I did not feel like digging in my pockets for the reciept so I pointed to the ice hole and he did not know what to say. Hahahaha I pulled out my tiny ice rod and pulled out some smelt then he just walked away. I don't get the whole minnow thing anyhow. I think there are alot worse things they did nothign about like every invasive species in the system from zebra mussels to gobies and now the grass carp coming in. I highly doubt these college educated idiot dinks will stop that from happening. But I hope you can get some common sense into Albany god bless you if it happens with Gov. Blinky in office and that animal rights peta weeny the head of the DEC your lucky to get anything to happen but good luck

[Overly Hackled]

While reading this thread all my minnows died and I lost my receipt

[FrankM]

I agree with parts 1 and 2 of your proposal as an interim step towards total removal of useless minnow restrictions.  Since there haven't been any outbreaks of VHS in infected waters in 2 years and since the main infected water (Lake Erie) remains infested with fish I think VHS regulations are much ado about nothing. Keep up the good work trying to bring about useful change in Albany. 

[monsterwalleyefishing]

my main concern is gobies.

[bird21s]

thank you for answering my q's in such detail. my hat is off to you. i was speaking to a bait retailer the other day and he told me, not only do the bait regs annoy anglers. but many guys used to pocket the cash from bait sales. he belives keeping the bait shops in check may be another contributing factor to the regs. again thank you for all the info...

[Sullymon]

I agree with 10 days being a "start" as well.  Thanks for clarifying a bunch of questions for me as well Doc, Bird21s asked some great questions that I've wondered myself.  There's a lot of confusion surrounding this issue ... thanks for your well informed response.

The bait laws remind me of how the state deals with gun laws ... they completely miss the mark and make it harder for law obiding people to obtain what they need legally, while doing nothing to stop illegal possession or keeping lawbreakers at bay ... if anything it creates "law-breaking".

Hey, whatever the state needs to make an extra buck ... why not create some BS like the licence plate saga?

[molsonport]

why push for 10 days? what was the thinking behind 3 more days. certified is certified. as for a Erie corr it sounds like good for me and to bad for the rest.  this sea grant money where did this money come from? feds/state, if this money came from the feds(taxpayers) or the state(taxpayers) why should it only benefit people who fish lake Erie. do you have any idea when this might take effect.

[rondog]

Beginning Jan 6,2010 bait receipts are good for 10 days,It's official.

[Fisher Pol]

I just read that Jan. 6 it goes to 10 days on another thread.

[doctariAFC]

why push for 10 days? what was the thinking behind 3 more days. certified is certified. as for a Erie corr it sounds like good for me and to bad for the rest.  this sea grant money where did this money come from? feds/state, if this money came from the feds(taxpayers) or the state(taxpayers) why should it only benefit people who fish lake Erie. do you have any idea when this might take effect.

Thanks for the Q's.

The push for the 10 days vs. 7 days.  The idea behind this was to assure anglers that their bait purchase and receipt would be valid to get at least one weekend covered.  Under the 7 day rule (day one being the day of purchase) anglers were not always assured of having a full weekend covered.  For instance, if you bought minnows Sunday night and were travelling the receipt would expire on a Saturday, leaving you a day with invalid receipt.  The other part was to provide NYS with a more equitable regulation vs other great lakes states, which many established a 14 day period.  I am not sure what the other states do in relation to the receipt, but all Great Lakes States are subject to the Federal order of 2006, which prohibits transport and stocking etc of uncertified live fish.  There is a list of species covered by the Federal order, and this also extends to fish stocking/ fish farms, not just bait, but we get the brunt of it, go figure.  The Federal order doesn't specifically state a receipt, rather a certification of health.  In order to address angling, the bait dealer receipt with the certified disease-free stamp on it, and listing of the specieis of minnows purchased covered that one.

NYS regulations are aimed at stopping the spread (and inadvertently stopping the use) of baitfish from waterway to waterway, so the transport of bait overland in a motorized vehicle was the easiest and probably most effective way to go.  However, each Great Lakes state and Canada has taken into account the obvious differences between the Great Lakes waterways and inland lakes, streams and ponds.  NYS has yet to do that.  Heck, it took an act of extreme common sense to have the DEC alter their own waters definitions to allow anglers to self collect bait in the upper Niagara River and taken them by boat to use out on Lake Erie!

As Steve Hurst said during our baitfish meeting, they acted "conservatively" because of the seriousness of this pathogen.  Of course, we also reminded Steve during this meeting that DEC admitted they didn't know anything about the disease, and we had to be adaptable based on information learned and conditions afield.  That was acknowledged, and agreed upon.

In terms of bait use and such, believe it or not, bait dealers inland have not been impacted by these regs nearly to the extent of the bait shops serving great lakes anglers.  This is directly due to the abundance of emerald shiners in Lake Erie in particular, and the fact that the small golden shiners and fatheads predominantly sold as certified just don't cut it, especially on the yellow perch.  Some colleagues of mine did an experiment out on Lake Erie this past year.  They bought a bag of goldens, a bag of fatheads and headed to Sunset Bay to hit the perch out that way.  On their way out of the harbor they collected some emeralds.  The emeralds outperformed the goldens 10 to 1, if not worse.  The fatheads didn't catch a cold.  The problem arises when an angler goes and buys bait to use on Lake Erie, and it doesn't catch a thing.  They then blame the bait shop for selling them lousy bait.  And then the bait business goes south, and the result is seen across Lake Erie where bait shops are shuttering operations fast.  Not the same condition inland.

However, the Lake Erie corridor would be a test, again, well benchmarked, to assure the stakeholders and dept. alike that no issues will result.  I would expect within a 2 or 3 years the State, based on success, would then allow anglers to transport self-collected bait around the waters the minnows came from.  It will take education and a lot of effort from the stakeholders, the DEC and Sea Grant will help us as well.

In terms of who is Sea Grant, this is an educational organization started in 1971 and is administered through NOAA.  There are approx 38 colleges with a Sea Grant organization, as the schools must have some coastline, either Marine or Great Lakes, to get a program.  The term "grant" doesn't necessarily mean grant money....  for more info  http://www.seagrant.noaa.gov/aboutsg/index.html

Kinda started out as a way to study pollution and effects on fisheries, and has since expanded with a major focus on invasive species research and controls, especially relating to the Great Lakes chain.

In terms of when it will take effect, I cannot say at this time.  I do know some positive movement within the Dept has happened, and I also know the fisheries folks here in R9 are 100% supportive of creating the corridor.  What I understand is from a Dept standpoint two fisheries managers are concerned about this, and I believe these folks manage fisheries in the ADK.  I expect the movement to allow anglers to transport self-collected bait overland in a car in a designate Lake Erie corridor to happen maybe by Spring?), but the retailer side of things is another matter.  I want to stress this is my belief, that someting will happen, it is not an official thing from the DEC (although I got assurances from way on high that something positive and in line with some of our desires will happen, and this year).  The tougher one will be allowing retail sale, but if the bait dealers can work out some details with the DEC, that could happen, too, but I'll defer those efforts to Bill and Pat Van Camp at this point, and when they seek additional help, the WNYCBC will be there to assist.  And we may need to get a letter writing campaign in motion as well to push it through, but I am awaiting some feedback from the Dept, as if something positive is happening, the last thing we would want to do is derail the train through good intentions...

Hope that helps.

PS - sorry about the novel....  But lots of information to relay.

[doctariAFC]

Beginning Jan 6,2010 bait receipts are good for 10 days,It's official.

Yes, that part was the "done deal"...  I am happy to see it goes into effect Jan 6.  They are trying to help us out, and part of the equation they are concerned about is indeed economic and jobs.  We've been able to shift a lot of the ways things are looked at since the pheasant fight was won...    We're keeping up the pressure....  But we're doing it with a lot of professionalism, which I believe surprised the DEC.  Typically these things become shouting matches when our passions get the best of us.  We have gathered a lot of information, and when we stick to the facts of the case, things to happen in a positive fashion....  from time to time....  go figure.....

These efforts have also rippled up to National level, too.  Has anyone seen that Sen. Chuckie Schumer has taken up pheasant hunting?  heeheehee