Author Topic: Methane Pocket?? (Read 5469 times)

wishniwuzicefishin · « **on:** Feb 05, 2009, 07:09 AM »

Had quite a scare out on the lake the other night. We were repositioning the shanty for an upcoming derby on Harriman Reservoir and as we drilled new holes inside the shanty water started shooting from the hole. I've seen water come through holes due to all the snow weight on the ice but nothing like this. It was like bubbling and spewing all over the place so we closed the hatch gave each other some nervous looks and started getting prepared to pull the shanty off of this geyser when we look across the room (it's 14 feet long) and see a blanket of fire billowing across the floor of the shanty right by the buddy heater. So I immediately ran over grabbed the heater and propane tank and threw it outside. As soon as I picked up the heater it flared up right in my face and singed off my eyelashes and beard! I ran back inside to clear everything from the inside and noticed that the fire was coming from underneath the shanty and up through the hatches including the hatch directly across the room at least 10 feet away from where the heater was which was the same side we drilled the hole. This is why I was thinking it wasn't a propane leak from the heater which we probably would have smelled but possibly methane gas escaping from our hole? We were dousing the flames with the icy lake water as much as we could but couldn't get the fire to stop. I thought we were going to lose the whole thing. Eventually the bubbling from the hole stopped and then the fire disappeared. None of the wood from the floor of the shanty was burned, only singed a bit so the flame was being fueled by some sort of gas. Has anyone heard of this happening? Do you think it's possible that we might have hit a trapped pocket of methane from the decaying vegetation? We foolishly didn't have a fire extinguisher in the shanty but that will be a permanant fixture in the shanty from now on!

Pajns · « **Reply #1 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 07:15 AM »

I don't have a answer to your questions but after reading your thread.....I'm GLAD you guys are OK!!!!!!!

jacksmelt71 · « **Reply #2 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 07:29 AM »

no kidding! if the gas built up enough in there it could have blown the roof off and you guys right with it! ive never heard of this happening but i always wondered if it could. i guess you answered my question! glad you guys are ok!

trapper2000 · « **Reply #3 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 07:36 AM »

i have never heard of such a thing ,wonder if it could have been natural gas? glad your ok
trap

edmonds · « **Reply #4 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 09:18 AM »

I was out drilling holes last Saturday and I experienced something similar...minus the fire. After drilling a few holes my buddy and I noticed a strong gaseous order coming from the hole. After an hour when i went to clean out my iced over holes, I noticed that there was pockets of air/gas frozen in the hole. After clearing it out the Strong order returned. Whether or not this is methane I am not sure. We were fishing over a somewhat swampy section of the lake and it may be possible that some of the byproducts of decomposition/decay from the bottom of the lake were coming up. Whether or not this could start a fire i don't know. Next time I am out there and I smell that odor, I'll hold a lighter next to it and find out!

mealworm · « **Reply #5 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 12:08 PM »

BOOM!!

snelly · « **Reply #6 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 12:15 PM »

That is absolutely incredible!! All's I have to say is WOW!!!!!!! Glad everyone is o.k.

Indiana_Lou · « **Reply #7 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 01:15 PM »

Wish, We have a lake that I boat and fish on mainly open water. This past summer we had a tremendous bubbler of methane gas coming off the bottom of the lake in about 30fow. During a discussion yesterday at our yearly membership meeting, one of the members said they actually lit it. And it burned right on the surface! We checked with the utility companies and suppopsedly there are no under water pipes in the area. We do have a number of coal mines though and it could be coming from one of those. Too bad we can't capture it and put it to good use! Lou

kiltman · « **Reply #8 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 01:32 PM »

Glad you guys are alright! WOW!
When I was a kid here in Muskegon we used to "pop" holes in the first ice where we could see a big "bubble" beneath.
We'd light the spew of gas coming from the hole!
Yes, methane under the ice is or could be common if there was lumber mills on the lake shore years gone by or other built up rotted vegetation.

be safe

butcher · « **Reply #9 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 01:45 PM »

Guys, I have never seen or heard of this, but I do know that methane does occur naturally in pockets - this was a major hazard in coal mines and caused many explosions. Even if it does not ignite, the fumes themselves are lethal if inhaled in large quantities for a significant amount of time. The problem with methane is that it is both colorless and odorless, therefore it is nearly impossible to detect unless you ignite it or pass out from inhalation - neither is a good idea...

Edmonds - if you are getting a "gas" smell out of a hole, that is not a natural deposit of methane. The methane (natural gas) that is used by utility companies has a sulphur smell to it. Gas companies actually add sulphur to the methane so that if it is leaking, people will be able to smell it and find the cause of the leak. Otherwise the gas goes undetected because it is colorless and odorless. If what you smelled was that gas smell you get from a gas main, it could be that an underwater gas main is leaking or that there was something sulphurous under your hole - hopefully it's the latter. If there are gas mains running under your lake, you may want to call the local utility company and let them know.

Hope this helps...

Butcher

Grumpyoldman · « **Reply #10 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 02:22 PM »

Big methane pocket. Amazing story.

FondoFishin · « **Reply #11 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 02:29 PM »

Yup, it was methane. Theres a small pond that I fish frequently in my town that is in a very swampy area. At first ice you can see small pockets that form under the ice. We pop them open with a spud and light them, and they shoot flames sometimes up to 3 feet out of the hole. Its pretty neat. Sounds like you guys hit a BIG one though, glad youre okay. Its a good thing you had the heater going already because if not, when you went to light it, it could have been bad.

kiltman · « **Reply #12 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 06:14 PM »

Hey Lobes,
I bet yours will light, too!!!!
they're called blue angels.

be safe and good fishin'

ChenBassHead · « **Reply #13 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 06:18 PM »

Man, don't tell Obama about that or they might tax you and your giant methane bubble.

In all seriousness though, glad to hear you're okay. That's some crazy, scary stuff.

-Zach

northwestslayer · « **Reply #14 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 08:17 PM »

i was out on a little river backed up from a dam. I was using a spud to check the ice in front of me. I hit like three feet in front of me a wham. went through with one hit and gas built up under the ice shot up for a minute straight. You could see it three feet in the air. Had to be on the same lines you wer talking about. The ice went from 6 inches to one inch in the spot. The odor was bad..

mainedukblaster · « **Reply #15 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 09:17 PM »

if it smelled sulphury.. it would most likely be Hydrogen sulfide, which is that rotten egg smell you get if you walk in a marsh and disturb the mud.. as stated earlier Methane is odorless and colorless.
sounds like this lake may have released a big methane bubble that could have normally just disappated with no ice, but was trappd under and you were the lucky ones to release it! was there any odor?? BEcause again on what was said earlier, there my be an underwater gas main, that has ruptured under the lake

glad your ok..

taxi1 · « **Reply #16 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 09:22 PM »

Quote from: butcher on Feb 05, 2009, 01:45 PM

The problem with methane is that it is both colorless and odorless, therefore it is nearly impossible to detect unless you ignite it or pass out from inhalation - neither is a good idea...

I respectfully disagree. Methane does most certainly have an odor. Next time someone farts tell me that doesn't smell. That's pure methane. I think you're confusing it with natural gas which has an additive to detect a leak.

taxi1 · « **Reply #17 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 09:36 PM »

Quote from: wishniwuzicefishin on Feb 05, 2009, 07:09 AM

Had quite a scare out on the lake the other night. We were repositioning the shanty for an upcoming derby on Harriman Reservoir and as we drilled new holes inside the shanty water started shooting from the hole. I've seen water come through holes due to all the snow weight on the ice but nothing like this. It was like bubbling and spewing all over the place so we closed the hatch gave each other some nervous looks and started getting prepared to pull the shanty off of this geyser when we look across the room (it's 14 feet long) and see a blanket of fire billowing across the floor of the shanty right by the buddy heater. So I immediately ran over grabbed the heater and propane tank and threw it outside. As soon as I picked up the heater it flared up right in my face and singed off my eyelashes and beard! I ran back inside to clear everything from the inside and noticed that the fire was coming from underneath the shanty and up through the hatches including the hatch directly across the room at least 10 feet away from where the heater was which was the same side we drilled the hole. This is why I was thinking it wasn't a propane leak from the heater which we probably would have smelled but possibly methane gas escaping from our hole? We were dousing the flames with the icy lake water as much as we could but couldn't get the fire to stop. I thought we were going to lose the whole thing. Eventually the bubbling from the hole stopped and then the fire disappeared. None of the wood from the floor of the shanty was burned, only singed a bit so the flame was being fueled by some sort of gas. Has anyone heard of this happening? Do you think it's possible that we might have hit a trapped pocket of methane from the decaying vegetation? We foolishly didn't have a fire extinguisher in the shanty but that will be a permanant fixture in the shanty from now on!

I've seen small quantities of methane CH4 come up in bubbles in shallow water but never in that quantity. That's fascinating. Like someone said there is a hell of a lot of it in parts of the ocean especially the Gulf and out in the area of the Bermuda Triangle on the other side. Was the area you set up by any chance quite clear in snow cover surrounded by deeper snow and/or water or slush? I was thinking maybe if the area around you was weighted down by snow etc. any gas in the area slid to the highest point under the ice (a dome if you will) and you just happened to drill right into it.

Or if the ice was thinner in the area you were in for some reason (froze later due to wind action) the gas may have been trapped under it.

Any tremors lately?

Farley · « **Reply #18 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 10:15 PM »

Quote from: butcher on Feb 05, 2009, 01:45 PM

Guys, I have never seen or heard of this, but I do know that methane does occur naturally in pockets - this was a major hazard in coal mines and caused many explosions. Even if it does not ignite, the fumes themselves are lethal if inhaled in large quantities for a significant amount of time. The problem with methane is that it is both colorless and odorless, therefore it is nearly impossible to detect unless you ignite it or pass out from inhalation - neither is a good idea...

Edmonds - if you are getting a "gas" smell out of a hole, that is not a natural deposit of methane. The methane (natural gas) that is used by utility companies has a sulphur smell to it. Gas companies actually add sulphur to the methane so that if it is leaking, people will be able to smell it and find the cause of the leak. Otherwise the gas goes undetected because it is colorless and odorless. If what you smelled was that gas smell you get from a gas main, it could be that an underwater gas main is leaking or that there was something sulphurous under your hole - hopefully it's the latter. If there are gas mains running under your lake, you may want to call the local utility company and let them know.

Hope this helps...

Butcher

I agree that pure methane is odorless but if it is mixed with other gasses from decomposition it may smell. Farts smell and will ignite

taxi1 · « **Reply #19 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 10:19 PM »

I suppose I could be wrong but I've never heard of odorless methane as methane is formed by decompositon or colon breakdown.

taxi1 · « **Reply #20 on:** Feb 05, 2009, 10:40 PM »

I stand corrected. Methane is colorless and odorless at normal temp and standard pressure. Damn ya learn something every day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

mainedukblaster · « **Reply #21 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 06:06 AM »

Quote from: taxidermist1 on Feb 05, 2009, 10:40 PM

I stand corrected. Methane is colorless and odorless at normal temp and standard pressure. d**n ya learn something every day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane

your farts stink because you also make hydrogen sulfide... swamp gas!!

wishniwuzicefishin · « **Reply #22 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 07:38 AM »

Thanks for the replies guys! I appreciate everyone's input. Everything happened so quickly but I can tell you that there was absolutely no smell (except burnt hair since i'm now left with zero eye lashes and like half an eyebrow!) After doing a bit of research on the history of the reservoir I found out that there were lumber mills around the lake, as Kiltman suggested, before the dam and there is even a sunken mill settlement somewhere in the lake. I've sunk the aqua vu in that area and there are a lot of sunken logs underneath. Oh well, went out to the shanty last night and popped some holes (with my fingers crossed) luckily no geysers this time! Hopefully this won't happen to anyone else. Tight Lines and stay safe everyone!

BaitWrangler · « **Reply #23 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 08:06 AM »

I don't know much about this topic but I went to a couple nasty places looking for bait the other day and a couple of the holes I chopped were pretty smelly. I was using the spud to find the bottom so that likely helped stirr up some nasty gasses.

Both ponds are heavily vegetated and one of them is a uniform 3ft deep and I had my 5.5 foot spud pushed in as far as it would go looking for a hard bottom and I couldn't find it. (Too much decayed matter and silt) I bet a "lit hole" on that pond would burn for days LOL.

ship of fools · « **Reply #24 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 08:24 AM »

Was the ice less thick in that area??

I always wonder what's up when i hit a hole with noticably different ice than all of the others i have drilled.

taxi1 · « **Reply #25 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 08:24 AM »

Quote from: mainedukblaster on Feb 06, 2009, 06:06 AM

your farts stink because you also make hydrogen sulfide... swamp gas!!

Mine don't stink.

Grumpyoldman · « **Reply #26 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 08:29 AM »

A little history. In his autobiography, Benjamin Franklin describes a phenomena he heard about while in europe. The idea was to walk in a stagnant piece of water with a stick and a candle. Poke the stick in the bottom and hold the candle near the water, when the surface of the water ingites, voila, you have succeeded. He tried it to repeat the experiment, and got sick as a dog after poking around a bog.

wishniwuzicefishin · « **Reply #27 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 08:40 AM »

Hey Ship the ice was a steady 10-12 all over that area. I had drilled several holes within 40 to 50 yards of the shanty looking for structure with the marcum and didn't notice any significant changes in ice thickness.

butcher · « **Reply #28 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 10:03 AM »

In my earlier post, I mentioned that methane is/was a big problem for miners. Those pockets of methane occur naturally but would get caught in the caves and accumulate into virtual timebombs. When the miners went down there 100+ years ago, the only light they has was from headlamps - REAL LAMPS!!! They were basically a candle mounted to a cap with a mirror behind it. If you walked into a methane pocket with one of those things - BOOM!!! To detect the gas, the miners would carry pigeons with them in a cage before they lit their lamps. If the pigeon got sleepy or died, they knew to get out of the mine before they were overwhelmed by the fumes or accidentally ignited the pocket.

Perhaps you should leave a pigeon in your shanty from now on...

Seriously though, that is one amazing story. Glad to hear you guys are OK.

Butcher

pin smelt · « **Reply #29 on:** Feb 06, 2009, 11:54 AM »

Glad to hear you guys are all right. Considering no serious, long term damage, you've got a great story to tell!

As for methane, it is a colorless and odorless gas, flammable gas. In a confined space, it can displace the available oxygen and cause a condition where anyone in that space would asphyxiate do to lack of oxygen. You would never even know it happened to you if that were to occur.

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S) does smell like rotten eggs, but you only notice that initially as the H2S makes it so that you do not smell it after a short while, even though it is still there. H2S is bad for your health and flammable too.

In marshy and swampy areas, both methane and H2S are produced together due to the break down of plants and other material under conditions where oxygen isn't present.

Farts stink because of where they are formed. Fart gas is formed because our bodies (especially as we age) are unable to completely digest fiber (like beans) and complex proteins (like lots of steak and eggs) (by the way, high sulfur foods like egg yolks and broccoli will aid in the production of H2S in your lower digestive tract).

There are meters in the market to measure Methane, H2S, and something called lower explosive limit (let you know when things good go boom). We use them at haz. waste sites for work.

I suppose the experience that you guys had is rare (considering the intensity of what occurred), and probably wouldn't happen again (although bad things do happen in threes). It probably wouldn't hurt to consider it if you are fishing in a marshy/swampy area. I've got a portable shack and always drill the holes first then place the shack on top of them.

You gotta think of it like smokin in the outhouse, if it wasn't for the quarter moon on the door, a lit camel could make for a crappy situation!

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Author Topic: Methane Pocket?? (Read 5469 times)