steel vs flourocarbon experiment

[Papa Sly]

Promised I would run an experiment with steel vs flouro leaders so here goes. I used seagar 30# flouro and knot 2 kinky tie-able steel leaders. I used the same hook and weight size on both  This was in Tupper NY at Simond pond, average depth is 6 feet with weeds, and the weekend after the big Northern Challenge for pike. We fished 4 days, with 30 tip-ups, and we used the same size bait the whole trip on all shiners. I set 6 tip-ups the whole trip out with steel, 20 % of the tip-ups. Results for the trip were as follows: 91 total flags, 85 on flouro, 6 on steel;39 fish caught on flouro and 2 on steel, 20 bass caught on flouro, 0 on steel, 14 pike caught on flouro, 0 on steel, 4 perch on flouro, 2 on steel. I couldn't use 50/50 ratio and cut down on fish caught but 6 traps with steel is 20% of our total traps and yet the results were amazing, only about 6% of the flags came on steel. We did have 1 bite off on the flouro, but the massive difference in flags and catches makes all the difference with flouro. This was our 6th year up there and I always wanted to document everything but never have before. The difference was even more dramatic than I thought.

[ICEHOLE]

As a floro guy, this is a good read  Thanks for posting the results

[Dschofield91]

Great post. Thanks for sharing your results.

[aquarium234]

If you want to do a real test you need 50% of your traps steel. at 6 to 24 is kinda a swayed survey, sounds like a government test...lol you may have just put most of your steal traps in bad spots by random chance. how many of your other tip ups not go off at all?  I know I always have hot holes and dead holes, I fish half and half steel for ginormous minnows 30# flouro for my others and usually works out to a similar bite rate with pike, other species flourocarbon wins hands down. You get an increase for sure in walleye bites with the flouro. for a limited size test at least put 12 tipups every other 6 flouro vs 6 steel. then compare the fish catch numbers, otherwise doesn't really seem like a fair test. Still fun to experiment with. what lb test steel did you use? also how long was the flouro leader vs steel jut curious.

[lowaccord66]

Definently interesting but Ill be more impressed when you post one over 20lbs on flouro.  Id also agree that the experiment wasn't fair.  No surprise you caught 80% of the fish on flouro.

[esox_xtm]

Hey Papa thanks for sharing your results but I still have to consider this an anecdotal observation rather than and actual study/comparison.

Many, many other variables contribute to success especially over time. For example did you consider swapping wire into the fluoro holes you caught fish from? Differences in bait weighting or not at all, precise suspension in relation to bottom or cover, size selected minnows, leader adornment (beads, blades, etc), even individuals personal scent in baiting can have pronounced effect on success. One that is often overlooked is the action of the minnow at the end of a chosen leader. In appropriate pound tests of fluoro the leader can be much stiffer than wire and will restrict bait motion significantly whereas wire allows the bait to swim more freely.  "Equally weighted leaders" are not necessarily equal in regards to allowed bait action

Last year one of my dedicated fluoro buddies was having quite a day. Several fish for him and nary a flag for me and yep, he was dishin' it out on fluoro. He had to leave early so the minute he pulled his rigs I jumped his holes. Take a guess at who was catching fish then.  Did the same thing to our guide, another "gotta fish fluoro guy", in MI two weeks ago. He had one hole far outproducing the rest. I asked if he'd swap holes for a bit. He offered that I could take his flags but I said I just wanted to see something. Sure enough, I had as many (actually more) flags than he'd had, in less time and produced the only keeping sized fish from that hole.

I know at times it seems like one thing or another is a "clear" advantage but if you really stop to consider all the other variables that affect success it's prudent to temper your findings. Not that there are not times when one product will be the only difference, it's just very rare to be able to create even comparisons in an impromptu experiment.

No disrespect to any of you fluoro guys out there. These are observations and opinions based on my experiences with different leader materials. Know that I still keep fluoro leader material in test from 6# through #130 and play with it every year just to keep my mind open. I also play with Ti (single and stranded), coated 19 and 49 strand steel and superlines (though never for pike/muskies but excellent for bass/walleyes). I'm still not convinced that fluoro is magic though I'm sure, at times, it seems that way.

Additionally, results comparing percentages of your flags is not amazing at all. First, of your 91 flags 20% (your ratio of steel vs fluoro) would have been just a little over 18 flags for steel to equalize the comparison. So, OK, 6 of what shoulda/coulda been 18 is seemingly short. A more accurate and telling comparison would have been to track each set individually. Betcha there were hot holes and I'd also bet that there were 6 fluoro rigs that had 6 or fewer flags between them. So I honestly can't call this anywhere near "amazing" nor even an "interesting read" though I can very much appreciate your efforts and willingness to share. Keep playing, the truth is out there! I'm just not sure exactly where that is but it is there.

Once again, no disrespect intended, just trying to look at things on an even playing field.

[DR.SPECKLER]

Heres my results so far.lol 2 tipups one with mono and 1 with 7 strand wire both in 20# test.1 flag all day and it was on the wire.surprised me.30” northern.so since i started running 1 tipup with mono and 1   wire ive caught 2 pike.one on each.50/50 results so far.

[troutncrappie]

boxers or briefs? same argument boys lmao who cares go fishing.

[esox_xtm]

boxers or briefs? same argument boys lmao who cares go fishing.

Actually I'm a boxer/brief guy... 

[striper50trout]

Interesting, expected i guess but thats why i run fluoro and ive only been bit off once. I think fishing in dirty or stained  water could even this up a bit

boxers or briefs? same argument boys lmao who cares go fishing.

Obviously some guys do.  If you dont care just move along
Nothing wrong with a little talk about gear and tactics, some people should pay a little more attention to this stuff and less about asking for ice conditions

[DR.SPECKLER]

Actually I'm a boxer/brief guy... 

lol im a freeballer.hahaha

[lowaccord66]

At the end of the day sly, if you like flouro and it works for you, rock it.  The post seems analogous to religion....one religion trying to convert others to it as being superior. 

[musky-man]

Do what you feel confident in. I out fished my friend the other day 4 to 1. I use knot to kinky, he uses 60 lb flouro. He lost a big on but nothing over 30 hit the ice. Of course that was just one day but still, if your on fish that are feeding I dont think it makes much of a difference

[comeonnow]

Great post Papa Sly. I like the fact that you took the time to do the comparison. I’m always looking for what works best in different situations. I think it’s a fun part of the overall game. Thanks

[troutncrappie]

Interesting, expected i guess but thats why i run fluoro and ive only been bit off once. I think fishing in dirty or stained  water could even this up a bit

Obviously some guys do.  If you dont care just move along
Nothing wrong with a little talk about gear and tactics, some people should pay a little more attention to this stuff and less about asking for ice conditions

Ouch man, just trying to poke fun on a topic that always comes up. My post was meant to be humorous no reason to get offended by it.hope you get bit off using fluoro.........im kidding.. tight lines

[pmaloney86]

I like the scientific approach to it!  I'm still up in the air on what to use.  I def think you get more flags with fluoro but the last decent pike I caught never would have been landed if I had fluoro on.  I think if the big ones are hungry it doesn't matter but if you want action versus waiting for the one big one go with fluoro.  I've got 3 rats on fluoro this year and one 10-12lber on single strand titanium.

[NateD]

I've had them (even pickerel) go right through 40lb like it isn't there, wire for me.

[mikez]

Interesting post. I understood it to be just a limited experiment and not hard science.
I also expected to hear the wire guys shoot it down.
Fishing is like religion to alot of guys and trying to tell them something they already choose not to believe is unproductive.
"It worked for me so it has to be true!"
Nothing is cut and dried and fish don't read the rule book.
Anecdotes don't impress me, it years of repeating success that convince me.

Not being a pike fisherman I have only one thing to add regarding pike; I recently watched a video of a pike eyeing a dead bait on the bottom where the leader was clearly visible in clear water and the pike was obviously looking at it. It circled around repeatedly obviously interested but also obviously very suspicious and reluctant. I actually don't know if the fish ever ate because it was taking so long I bailed on the video. I definitely came away convinced the fish saw the leader and was bothered by it.

My guess is in clear water, heavily fished, maybe previously caught pike are put off by visible leaders.

Myself, I almost never use wire even when fishing bluefish. Many years of experience side by side with wire guys convinced me. Getting those guys next to me to remove the wire and seeing them immediately hooking up removes my personal skill or technique from the equation. I prefer long single hook baits that keep the line farther from the teeth. I do get bit off sometimes. And sometimes they're just in a frenzy and hit anything thrown.
It's just what I believe after years of experience. YMMV.

[esox_xtm]

I don't get "leader shy". I do believe that leaders contribute to presentations in many ways but the visibility factor comes pretty far down the list.

Here's why "leader shy" doesn't make sense to me: fish have brains that are maybe (best case) the size of a pea or much smaller and as such their cognitive abilities have to be extremely limited. Much of their response is innate, where it's a product of inherited responses to certain cues. Certainly older fish add to their experiences and learn to some extent but even those "smarter" fish will still succumb to those internal urges to respond in a certain way.

Now, if fish are so "smart" they can discern that a leader attached to an otherwise natural looking bait is dangerous and choose to avoid, why are hooks not regarded the same way? In musky fishing I hear all the time how you've gotta have an invisible leader to catch fish with a crazy looking lure sporting as many as three 8/0 treble hooks. The hooks are way more dangerous than the leader yet, seemingly, no fish can identify them as an "avoidance item". Or folks that add bling to pike leaders, whether by law or by choice, like blades, beads, fur/feather, plastic. What about that? I just can't believe that a "visible vs invisible" leader has that much significance. Sometimes? Sure. But I can say "sometimes" about a lot of things.

As far as converting others to your chosen tackle/tactic and seeing immediate results, that again is only an experience. I've fished next to others that were not doing well, had them change their tackle/bait, shared every detail of my presentation and in a couple of cases let 'em fish right out of my hole with my rod. One guy couldn't even get a bite that way and proclaimed the bite was over until I had him hand me my rod back. First drop down the hole he'd just been in got another 'gill.

To be clear I did not "shoot down" Papa's post. Because of my history in dealing with real experiments (as opposed to experiences) felt it important to define the conclusions. I'll never diminish anyone sharing experiences. It's when (mostly others) start saying "see... it IS true!" that I feel compelled to turn the coin over and reveal there is another side.

[mikez]

I don't get "leader shy". I do believe that leaders contribute to presentations in many ways but the visibility factor comes pretty far down the list.

Here's why "leader shy" doesn't make sense to me: fish have brains that are maybe (best case) the size of a pea or much smaller and as such their cognitive abilities have to be extremely limited.

Here's where I have to strongly disagree. Granted, I'm not a pike fisherman but you are making general statements about fish that flys in the face of millions of anglers' experiences going back centuries.
Many many species of fish are leader shy. Mono and floro were both invented for that very reason. The examples are endless of fish that just won't bite if they can see the line. Way beyond anecdote or preconceived notions. I would say it's well proven fact.

Although almost all fish occasionally do the unexpected, false albacore or wiley brown trout caught by accident on heavy leaders or steel for example, for consistently high success repeated over years, being conscious of leader shyness is a necessity.

[ICEHOLE]

I don't get "leader shy". I do believe that leaders contribute to presentations in many ways but the visibility factor comes pretty far down the list.

Here's why "leader shy" doesn't make sense to me: fish have brains that are maybe (best case) the size of a pea or much smaller and as such their cognitive abilities have to be extremely limited. Much of their response is innate, where it's a product of inherited responses to certain cues. Certainly older fish add to their experiences and learn to some extent but even those "smarter" fish will still succumb to those internal urges to respond in a certain way.

Now, if fish are so "smart" they can discern that a leader attached to an otherwise natural looking bait is dangerous and choose to avoid, why are hooks not regarded the same way? In musky fishing I hear all the time how you've gotta have an invisible leader to catch fish with a crazy looking lure sporting as many as three 8/0 treble hooks. The hooks are way more dangerous than the leader yet, seemingly, no fish can identify them as an "avoidance item". Or folks that add bling to pike leaders, whether by law or by choice, like blades, beads, fur/feather, plastic. What about that? I just can't believe that a "visible vs invisible" leader has that much significance. Sometimes? Sure. But I can say "sometimes" about a lot of things.

As far as converting others to your chosen tackle/tactic and seeing immediate results, that again is only an experience. I've fished next to others that were not doing well, had them change their tackle/bait, shared every detail of my presentation and in a couple of cases let 'em fish right out of my hole with my rod. One guy couldn't even get a bite that way and proclaimed the bite was over until I had him hand me my rod back. First drop down the hole he'd just been in got another 'gill.

To be clear I did not "shoot down" Papa's post. Because of my history in dealing with real experiments (as opposed to experiences) felt it important to define the conclusions. I'll never diminish anyone sharing experiences. It's when (mostly others) start saying "see... it IS true!" that I feel compelled to turn the coin over and reveal there is another side.

we can never prove what the little guys are packing for brain power but my observations as an aquarists are hard for me to argue...
example: i have a yellow perch i have kept for years. i feed him pellets. You can almost feel his anticipation when i pick up his jar of food located on the top of the tank. i throw a few RED feed sticks and he crushes them! as hard and as fast as he can. I once tossed a french fry (fish was excited) as soon as he realized the size, shape and color were different he swam back to the bottom...seems cognative to me
And i think if anything their "cognative abilities" are likely all geared towards FOOD, AND FLIGHT, so feeding and fleeing should be high on their list of brain functions...my 2 cents, and ill keep using floro

[sebago2jigtima]

interesting ... i like frys 

[lowaccord66]

I don't get "leader shy". I do believe that leaders contribute to presentations in many ways but the visibility factor comes pretty far down the list.

Here's why "leader shy" doesn't make sense to me: fish have brains that are maybe (best case) the size of a pea or much smaller and as such their cognitive abilities have to be extremely limited. Much of their response is innate, where it's a product of inherited responses to certain cues. Certainly older fish add to their experiences and learn to some extent but even those "smarter" fish will still succumb to those internal urges to respond in a certain way.

Now, if fish are so "smart" they can discern that a leader attached to an otherwise natural looking bait is dangerous and choose to avoid, why are hooks not regarded the same way? In musky fishing I hear all the time how you've gotta have an invisible leader to catch fish with a crazy looking lure sporting as many as three 8/0 treble hooks. The hooks are way more dangerous than the leader yet, seemingly, no fish can identify them as an "avoidance item". Or folks that add bling to pike leaders, whether by law or by choice, like blades, beads, fur/feather, plastic. What about that? I just can't believe that a "visible vs invisible" leader has that much significance. Sometimes? Sure. But I can say "sometimes" about a lot of things.

As far as converting others to your chosen tackle/tactic and seeing immediate results, that again is only an experience. I've fished next to others that were not doing well, had them change their tackle/bait, shared every detail of my presentation and in a couple of cases let 'em fish right out of my hole with my rod. One guy couldn't even get a bite that way and proclaimed the bite was over until I had him hand me my rod back. First drop down the hole he'd just been in got another 'gill.

To be clear I did not "shoot down" Papa's post. Because of my history in dealing with real experiments (as opposed to experiences) felt it important to define the conclusions. I'll never diminish anyone sharing experiences. It's when (mostly others) start saying "see... it IS true!" that I feel compelled to turn the coin over and reveal there is another side.

Im with this.  I think anglers are superstitious.  In sly's example there is such an obvious bias towards fluoro that they only had steel on 20% of the set.  Bias and superstition in fishing gets you no where. 

[PikeKing23]

You guys ever try to catch sunfish at your local community fishing waters?  You know the ones in the middle of town with the pier that every kid in the neighborhood has been fish off for the last 10 years.  Try and throw a worm and a bobber in the middle of the school.  They come up and look and turn and leave.  They have 100% learned what a hook and bobber look like.  Take a worm and throw it in with no hook...it gets eaten right away.

I can also personally attest that I have used the same natural bait and presentation in the same cove for years and caught tons of pike.  They eventually became weary of my setup and I stopped catching them.  I have literally watched them come up and gently grab the bottom of my bait and just hold on while they are waiting for me to set the hook on nothing so they can have a free meal.  I have no doubt that they can get line shy.

[Papa Sly]

Definently interesting but Ill be more impressed when you post one over 20lbs on flouro.  Id also agree that the experiment wasn't fair.  No surprise you caught 80% of the fish on flouro.

Hey Jon, caught 94% of fish on flouro although only 80% of the lines were flouro. My PB is a 43.5" pike on 8# mono, #4 bait hook and a medium shiner over 20 years ago...boy was that lucky. I fish with friends who only use steel, they sit there all day waiting for that one hit/fish. I just hate that type of fishing so I use flouro knowing I will get a lot more flags but may lose the big one. To each their own I guess.

[Papa Sly]

I don't get "leader shy". I do believe that leaders contribute to presentations in many ways but the visibility factor comes pretty far down the list.

Here's why "leader shy" doesn't make sense to me: fish have brains that are maybe (best case) the size of a pea or much smaller and as such their cognitive abilities have to be extremely limited. Much of their response is innate, where it's a product of inherited responses to certain cues. Certainly older fish add to their experiences and learn to some extent but even those "smarter" fish will still succumb to those internal urges to respond in a certain way.

Now, if fish are so "smart" they can discern that a leader attached to an otherwise natural looking bait is dangerous and choose to avoid, why are hooks not regarded the same way? In musky fishing I hear all the time how you've gotta have an invisible leader to catch fish with a crazy looking lure sporting as many as three 8/0 treble hooks. The hooks are way more dangerous than the leader yet, seemingly, no fish can identify them as an "avoidance item". Or folks that add bling to pike leaders, whether by law or by choice, like blades, beads, fur/feather, plastic. What about that? I just can't believe that a "visible vs invisible" leader has that much significance. Sometimes? Sure. But I can say "sometimes" about a lot of things.

As far as converting others to your chosen tackle/tactic and seeing immediate results, that again is only an experience. I've fished next to others that were not doing well, had them change their tackle/bait, shared every detail of my presentation and in a couple of cases let 'em fish right out of my hole with my rod. One guy couldn't even get a bite that way and proclaimed the bite was over until I had him hand me my rod back. First drop down the hole he'd just been in got another 'gill.

To be clear I did not "shoot down" Papa's post. Because of my history in dealing with real experiments (as opposed to experiences) felt it important to define the conclusions. I'll never diminish anyone sharing experiences. It's when (mostly others) start saying "see... it IS true!" that I feel compelled to turn the coin over and reveal there is another side.

I have learned so much from ESOX regarding leaders, crimping and fishing in general. This was not an experiment as stated but really more of an experience shared. I could not run the tip-ups 50% - 50% as for 6 years we have consistently out fished the others fishing at that lake. We use  flouro and could not give up the extra flags and fish caught. I can say I alternated holes for the 12 tipups and they were all set up exactly the same in that group. The same bait was used on all tip-ups and I was sure to keep the steel exposed to where we were catching on the flouro. So while only 20% of the tip-ups were steel only 6% of the flags came from steel and no bass or pike on steel. I can say I consistently out fish steel leaders as far as numbers but I agree its at a big risk.

[lowaccord66]

Hey Jon, caught 94% of fish on flouro although only 80% of the lines were flouro. My PB is a 43.5" pike on 8# mono, #4 bait hook and a medium shiner over 20 years ago...boy was that lucky. I fish with friends who only use steel, they sit there all day waiting for that one hit/fish. I just hate that type of fishing so I use flouro knowing I will get a lot more flags but may lose the big one. To each their own I guess.

You are right Sly.  Best thing about the sport is we can all choose how we want to do it.  43" is a sweet pike.  I hope you get another hog soon.

For what its worth 225 pike were entered in the tupper lake tourney.  Thats a lot of slime darts.

[capt.shay]

Hey Jon, caught 94% of fish on flouro although only 80% of the lines were flouro. My PB is a 43.5" pike on 8# mono, #4 bait hook and a medium shiner over 20 years ago...boy was that lucky. I fish with friends who only use steel, they sit there all day waiting for that one hit/fish. I just hate that type of fishing so I use flouro knowing I will get a lot more flags but may lose the big one. To each their own I guess.

I totally get that and respect your decision.  But I am that one flag guy and over the years it has put some great fish on the ice for us.  My buddy had the gold pin two years ago using the same tie-able steel that I use (His son got the Jr. Walleye that year and again just this past year-Yea Joeyfish!).  Do we get as many flags as we would if we ran flouro?  Maybe not, but I have ice hundreds of pike now in the last 35 years and numbers just aren't as important to me as that one big fish 

[Papa Sly]

I respect that capt. that's why we all have our own ideas and thoughts when it comes to and type of fishing questions. There are a lot of guys on here I really respect so I love to get opinions on different techniques.

[mikez]

If you or anyone else ever wants to try another experiment, I think it would be cool to put two tipups side by side so the fish can choose. Even cooler, water clarity permitting, would be an underwater camera to view the fish's behaviour.
I'm not predicting the result mind you, I defer to the experience of the guys who actually fish for pike. I just think it would be cool.