Global W.

[Sodusitous]

There is little doubt we are experiencing climate "change". Even in our "short" time on this planet, that much is obvious. Is it a result of what we are doing to Mother Earth? Or is it just her being  a massive living organism that is getting older and  and growing or possibly dying? When you think of all the planets out there that do not sustain living organisms, planets that we would not survive on for a multitude of reasons, is it that unrealistic to assume that the Earth is simply becoming one of those other planets? You have to consider the BIG picture here.  Is there any evidence that suggests that Mars or Jupiter were once inhabited by a species of creatures that mistreated and polluted those planets to the point that they also became uninhabitable? It is hard to imagine, but maybe all of humanity is just lucky to be living on this planet at the exact time that the planet is capable of sustaining life? Ladies and gentlemen,  the Earth came with no user guide, troubleshooting charts or warranties.

I am not saying that we are not mistreating our planet. We mistreat ourselves so obviously we are not doing her any favors either. Maybe we can make changes to prolong Earth's demise -maybe not. And maybe, just maybe, we have no control over it at all.

Now I am sad. I think I should go fishing to take my mind off it.

[Sodusitous]

PS

I did stop burning my trash and started recycling just in case I am wrong!

[lowaccord66]

    according to a show i watched on the weather channel, global warming will affect different areas differently. some areas will get hotter and suffer drought like in the west. others will get more rainfall. unfortunitly for us in the northeast we will get more severe winters because the more energy produced by a warmer planet will cause more of the cold air over the poles to be pushed south by a warmer more unstable jet stream. so as we will start to get warmer, wetter summers we will continue to get bad winters, which could swing from -30 to 30 in days, wreaking havoc w/ our past relatively stable climate. a warmer planet means more energy to fuel extreme weather.( hurricanes, tornados, heavy rains and heavy snow). of course they could be wrong.

You have much to learn about NBC and there ability to push the Obama agenda on The Weather Channel.  Almost every program they run they try to tie in global warming...they are successful in getting you to push that agenda. 

Hmm The Weather Channel suggests the creation of extreme weather because of global warming....I can't seem to figure out why they'd suggest such a thing....LMAO it's all smoke and mirrors to get eyes on the screen and add revenue in their pockets!

[jacksmelt71]

maybe true but you don't have to watch the news or weather channel to know the weathers going wacky . look at all the lowest temp. records that have got broken this winter and high temps. records in the west. some of these go back to the 1800's. hurricanes are getting stronger and more frequent. more record floods. wether its manmade or a natural cycle, craps happening all over the globe. scientists have taken core samples from Antartica and recorded the co2 levels back millions of years. our co2 levels have never changed as quickly as it has the last 100yrs. when you see drastic changes in greenhouse gasses like caused by large volcanos erupting  there is always a huge die of species for a 10-20 yr. period, sometimes longer, until mother nature fixes things again. as we continue to deforest the planet ,we are removing the carbon filter precisely when we need it most. the seas are getting less favorable for algae due to pollution and acidification. again reducing a important carbon sponge. i think if we all sacrifice a little by doing our part to try and control this we could make a difference. its the big industries that are hard ones to change. and countries like china that are polluting like we did in the 60's. are gonna have to get on the bandwagon. probably won't happen but we have to try for the sake of the future generations.

[fishingsurveyor]

I will be pushing up daisy's when the sh it hits the fan 

[Anomaly]

I will be pushing up daisy's when the sh it hits the fan 

Unless YOU stand toooo close to the fan. 

SORRY DICK! NO WAY I COULDN’T TAKE THAT OPENING. 

[Anomaly]

The Gulf of Maine has gone from pH 8.2 to 8.1 based on atmospheric CO2 concentration rise. The global Ocean has dropped from pH 8.0 to 7.9 for the same reason.  Historically known pH range for the ocean is 7.4 to 8.4.

So any ocean acidification problem occurring inshore  in Maine is NOT due to anthropogenic inputs.  Because there is not any acidity in GOM water, the Gulf of Maine has a surplus of OH ions (not H ions) and is still very basic (alkaline) and within normal ocean pH levels.

I told you on another site, that your specific acidity problem was most likely due to location and substrate and has nothing at all to do with anthropogenic CO2 increases.

Rather it is probably caused by runoff, with high concentration of fertilizers, or some other pollutants......increa sed rainfall would of course increase runoff.

Aloha

I don’t disagree with any of that AND, AT THE SAME TIME; there is more to be concerned about than today in our backyard. BUT, I guess that is why people plant hedges.  It seems at times you over simplify and confine you perspective. It doesn’t mean I don’t love you though, wild man!   

Cap, maybe you should attend the Fisherman’s Forum in Rockland next week.
There is plenty of Q&A from and with industry, DMR and the scientific community that actually work in the element. Bring some students.
Could be a good informative educational experience!

http://www.mainefishermensforum.org/Forms2015.htm

[Anomaly]

9:00 am  Camden Room
Forecasts, Tools and Research to Support Fisheries in Adapting to a Rapidly Changing Gulf of Maine
   Change is not new in the Gulf of Maine ecosystem, and fishermen have always been aware of how the ecosystem responds to environmental variability.  However, climate-related changes in the Gulf of Maine are now occurring at an unprecedented rate.  Warming rates here are outpacing those in the rest of the world’s oceans, and acidification is an emerging threat.  These physical changes are affecting the abundance and distribution of commercially important species, and fishermen are seeing the impacts in their catches and seasonal operations.     
   This session will provide an update on recent developments related to climate change and ocean acidification in the Gulf of Maine.  Speakers will present results of the latest scientific research that show how lobsters, cod, and emerging species such as black sea bass are responding to changes in ocean temperatures and what these changes may mean for fisheries in the future.  In addition, speakers will demonstrate tools that are becoming available to provide climate information and short-term forecasts that fishermen and the fishing industry may find valuable as they plan how to adapt their operations in the context of rapid ecosystem change.     
Host:   Paul Anderson, Maine Sea Grant
Moderator:   Andrew Pershing, Gulf of Maine Research Institute
   Nick Battista, Island Institute
   Katherine Mills, Gulf of Maine Research Institute
Panel:   Andrew Pershing, Gulf of Maine Research Institute
   Alexa Dayton, Gulf of Maine Research Institute
   Riley Young Morse, Gulf of Maine Research Institute
   Christina Hernandez, Gulf of Maine Research Institute
   Kisei Tanaka, University of Maine
   Noah Oppenheim, University of Maine
   Marissa McMahon, Northeastern University
   Heather Deese, Island Institute
   Tom Shyka, NERACOOS
   Jim Manning, NOAA Northeast Fisheries Science Center
   Michael Conathan, Center for American Progress

[Anomaly]

Anthropogenic by your definition, regarding inshore/intertidal “... runoff, with high concentration of fertilizers, or some other pollutants......increa sed rainfall would of course increase runoff.”  CO2 is still dissolving at a considerable rate into the open ocean. I understand mixing and upwelling are considerations.

I told you on another site, that your specific acidity problem was most likely due to location and substrate and has nothing at all to do with anthropogenic CO2 increases.

Rather it is probably caused by runoff, with high concentration of fertilizers, or some other pollutants......increa sed rainfall would of course increase runoff.

Aloha

[ICEMAN-73]

Its too bad the whole global warming issue has turned into such a political weapon! seems like politicians on both sides use it to their advantage so it turns into a us vs them issue and the facts get lost! As for me I'm still undecided on it all but seems to me that trying to be cleaner "within reason"  can only be a good thing for the planet! The issue becomes that the U.S.A can become as clean as it can be but it won't stop the other developing countries from being big polluters. Being clean all so costs allot of money and puts us at a huge disadvantage industry wise to other countries so unless we all play by the same rules it isn't going to amount to much! Theirs no good answers to it all so lets just enjoy the ice we have and fish on!

[jacksmelt71]

amen brother!

[FishBelowME]

The planet has been warming up long before "greenhouse" gasses, if it hadn't been we would be under 2 miles of ice. 

[Anomaly]

Just one more bit. This is from an email exchange regarding oysters and the Fisherman’s forum. Bill Mook is probably the largest oyster grower in Maine. He nows his business.

"One item to add, by way of focusing down on the issue: research also seems to be indicating that it's the level of calcium carbonate (particularly in the aragonite form) saturation that is the key factor. The chemistry is complicated, and pH is related to the saturation state, but it's that saturation state that governs how easily (or not) that calcium can be drawn from seawater and incorporated into things like bivalve shells. You may have already seen this article:

http://ensia.com/articles/is-ph-a-red-herring-when-it-comes-to-ocean-acidification/

I can relate to you Bill Mook's experiences, as he's said in several meeting, in that he had been noticing decreasing settlement success of his shellfish (and he is certainly an expert in hatchery production), and he put this down to decreasing pH and the impact on saturation state. Once he installed some equipment to modify his incoming water, he had a perfect 16-for-16 record for successful spawns. In short, the water quality was the problem, and by adjusting his pH/saturation state, the problem was alleviated. It's a good example - from an industry expert- of the direct effects of this water quality parameter. 

best regards
Dana
- Show quoted text -
--
Dana L. Morse
Extension Associate
Maine Sea Grant College Program
    and UMaine Cooperative Extension
193 Clark's Cove
Darling Marine Center
Walpole, ME 04573

[cap]

Clammie,

I make things too simple? Do you know what Occam's Razor is?

Certainly pollution, as in fertilizer runoff, is an anthropogenic problem....but that is certainly a different smoke than anthropogenic CO2 input into the atmosphere and it's effect on climate and changes in ocean chemistry

You seem to switch back and forth at will.

Simply, I'm telling you that a projected ocean acidification caused by dissolved atmospheric CO2, based upon Global Circulation Models, with a  continued projected CO2 forcing as an input, is not the same as the current chemical status of the sea or the Gulf of Maine.

Yeah, humanity possibly could acidify the whole ocean...but cows could fly someday too.

The doom and gloom scenarios are all predictions of what may happen in the future.  Just like a weather forecast but with far less certainty.

Right now today Ocean Acidification which is based upon dissolved CO2 is BS political crapola..the ocean  is NOT ACIDIC it is a buffered system which is alkaline....local acidity levels however are not BS and they are based upon other factors.

[Anomaly]

Right now today Ocean Acidification which is based upon dissolved CO2 is BS political crapola..the ocean  is NOT ACIDIC it is a buffered system which is alkaline....local acidity levels however are not BS and they are based upon other factors.

Cappy,

 Thanks for helping me clarify around this issue! I knew particular areas are more vulnerable, as has been evidenced in oyster farms on both coasts. The coasts of most all land masses are the most vulnerable. These are the areas folks that make their living in the tide must depend on for their business and their lives.

“12 Areas that could be particularly vulnerable to OA include regions where there is natural upwelling of
colder, low pH, deep water onto the continental shelves, such as the west coast of North America; the oceans near the poles, where lower temperatures allow seawater to absorb more CO2; and coastal regions that receive freshwater dis- charge.”

“20 Ocean acidification represents yet another stress on marine environments that may endanger the flow
of goods and services to marine-dependent communities. Humans around the world depend on the ocean for food, water quality, storm buffering, and many other important functions. Disruptions to marine ecosystems can alter these relationships.”

http://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=165564&pt=2&p=150429

Let's use Occum’s  (spelling debatable  )razor, first given two facts (1f and 2f)  then two assumptions (1a and 2a):

1f. The oceans have become more acidic in general - "CO2 in the atmosphere has increased from 278 ppm in pre-industrial times to 390 ppm today. During this time, the amount of CO2 dissolved in the ocean has risen by more than 30% [iii], decreasing the pH of the ocean by 0.11 units. As with CO2 and global warming, there is some lag between cause and effect. That means that, even if all carbon emissions stopped today, we are committed to a further drop of up to 0.1 units.”

2f. Quoting you “....local acidity levels however are not BS and they are based upon other factors.” 

1a) Assume we will not stop pumping co2 into the environment so the ocean will continue to absorb more co2

2a) Assume Run-off containing human wastes, be it fertilizers, clear cut activities, etc will continue.

Conclusion: Acidifying ocean water resulting from carbon sinking coupled with effluents from on shore human activity will place and are placing coastal environments, including coral reefs in danger. So, acidifying ocean water exacerbates the coastal issue.

It’s ALL anthropogenic, man.

Always  a pleasure and fun!

[woodchip]

The Gulf of Maine is of the Western edge of the Gulf Stream, which flows Northerly bringing in warmer southern water. We are not IN the gulf stream our selves but in kind of an eddy cove. 
                           Maybe we can build a big rudder and anchor it in the proper location to steer the gulf stream or a portion of it to the Maine coast so we can grow cold water fish and shell fish.

[cap]

But the ocean is buffered by CaCO3 and even if you put more CO2 into it which as you know is just A miniscule trace quantity the effect is not only logariithmic BUT IS BUFFERED TO RETURN THE PH TO APPROX 8PH UNITS.

H ions react with calcium carbonate and release OH ions... even if we double the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere it will only lower the pH by another .1 pH unit.

If you titrate pure water vs CO2 in air above it and you increase the concentration of CO2 from 350 ppm to 700 ppm the pH decreases by .1 unit which is increasing the acidity by 30%.

30% is suppose to scare the dickens out you...but it is .1 pH unit.... even if you doubled it again 1400ppm it is even less than .1 pH unit.

Now you might ask is a short term drop in pH abnormal? the answer is absolutely not...Boron isotopes are a proxy for pH and a peer reviewed study  (Science Vol 309 p 2204) shows preindustrial and modern interdecadal variability in PH by measuring the isotope in a 300 year old coral. Changes in ocean pH vary by as much .25 pH units pre industry and is cyclic with the 50 year Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation. A 7000 year record (Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta Vol 73 p1264 found Ocean pH oscillating over a range of .4 pH units  ...the sharpest drop was 6500 to 6000 years ago and there was no correlation with atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration in Antarctic ice cores.

So the pH was varying all on it's own...no correlation with CO2 and it changed more than what we are experiencing now...

So Ocean Acidification is just more Al Gore mumbo jumbo......

BUt you can believe what you want....

[Anomaly]

So Ocean Acidification is just more Al Gore mumbo jumbo......

BUt you can believe what you want....

Was, and still do wish to,  planning you to have the last word. Then I noticed on your fb page  you are employed, at least partly, in WHOI.

Are you at odds with the FAQ I cited above. How or were you involved in this publication? http://www.whoi.edu/fileserver.do?id=165564&pt=2&p=150429

I know several scientists and have read many more that believe we are in trouble. I hadn’t understood the phenomena is more inshore than offshore. I thank you for puttig some light on that for me. I also know business people who have had to adjust their practices do to increased acidity and related problems that were killing their spat. They have to buffer the water they take in from the ocean. Mook Seafarms are a good example. Maybe you should talk to him. He also noted drastic drops in phytoplankton in the water intake filters.

Somewhere you said something about not altering business because of the bs of GW. Unfortunately, there are those that have already found it necessary to do so. All of us in the shellfish industry are watching this very closely. Maine’s Mook Sea farm is one close to home.

If one thinks the bilge pump isn’t keeping up with the water coming into the boat, does one act or just wait and see? We disregard this information at our peril.

YOU can believe what you want. The stuff on the ground and experience coupled with plenty of data and informed opinion of most scientists I know is what I have to go with. not just believe.

Some linguist guy who’s name i can’t remember said “Knowledge is justified true belief.” If one of those is missing, you don’t know. I KNOW businesses have been effected by low ph. I believe, with some justification, I need plan to mitigate any possible issues arising from elevated levels of acidity and related issues, in MY business.

A, now past, physicist friend of mine once said WE are the missing link. Maybe he was right. ....Especially justified after seeing your Facebook pic...  

[djbinding]

Hanibal crossed the Alps in 218 BC. Currently the area maintains 12 feet of normal snow pack.  Either the earth is cooling or I gotta get me one of those elephants to pull my shack

[joefishmore]

Adapt or die off...thats the way its always been.

[woodchip]

I don't know about Adapting. But I do Know about dying off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[djbinding]

I adapted my carbon foot print this winter. 6 cord instead of 5.

[cap]

Clammie,  I don't know how I can make this any clearer.

I haven't said that Mook, you, or any other shellfish harvester, farmer, or aquaculturist hasn't experienced problems with water quality issues.

What I AM saying is that those problems are NOT caused by any additional miniscule atmospheric CO2 concentration caused by the burning of fossil fuels.

I say this because the physics and chemistry of the atmosphere and the ocean do not support this, and neither does the paleoceanographic or paleoclimatologic records.

My very first post to you on this subject I said it is a local environmental problem.

This is actually hopeful and good news for you, and all other shellfishermen who's work depends on healthy water quality.  Because at least in this country we can change how we deal with run off and what chemicals and pollutants we put into it, on a local level.

But we cannot change the fact that China and India and other developing nations will continue to put more CO2 into the atmosphere over the next 50 or 60 years even if we in the USA were to stop all our fossil fuel consumption tomorrow.

[fishing is life]

I always laugh when people talk about global warming, meanwhile we are sitting under 6 feet of snow and waking up to below 0 temperatures every morning.

[StonecoldCat]

I always laugh when people talk about global warming, meanwhile we are sitting under 6 feet of snow and waking up to below 0 temperatures every morning.

Caused by GLOBAL WARMING.The latest from California U.is that war in Syria is caused by GLOBAL WARMING.http://www.wired.com/2015/03/global-warming-helped-cause-syrian-war/ Sooooo...... I'm taking Friday off.....hmmm... cause of GLOBAL WARMING......

[djbinding]

Need to add Syria and Yemen to the Iceshany  community.I'll  wait to hear from one of there local hard water fishermen before I make my own opinion.