To keep or not to keep

[fowl_language]

Pretty good read if you have a lot of time.

https://collaboration.idfg.idaho.gov/FisheriesTechnicalReports/Res-Reininger1982b%20Lake%20and%20Reservoir%20Investigations%20Cascade%20Reservoir.pdf

[Bigggcountry]

It's discussions like this that make glad that we live in a country where we have the freedom to do basically what we want when we want. Everyone of us has an opinion and thankfully we have the freedom to express it.  I think if we as outdoorsmen act responsibly, and keep an eye on the future, the perch will continue to thrive in Cascade.

[StrikeMojo]

There are a lot of arm chair biologists throwing opinions out here.  That is a good thing in my OPINION, because it identifies where we are all coming from.  I respect Matt and his passion for that lake and big perch.  I don't always agree with where he is coming from, but he is trying to get to the right place ( big fish sustainment in Cascade).

I would like to add I spent almost an hour on the phone with an IDF&G fisheries biologist the other day talking about perch.  Great amount of information right there, and basically he said keep what you can use.  Cascade is going to have a problem if we don't weed out a lot of the medium sized fish, and the big ones have spawned at least 6 times already, and many (if not most of them) will die from spawning trauma this season.  The perch in Cascade spawn at 2-3 years of age.  Many of the medium and small perch in that lake are progeny of the toads.  The genetics are there from these big fish, and will be for a long time.  The reason those fish got big is lack of competition when they were originally stocked.  Yes the big ones eat little ones.  So do the medium sized fish.  There are going to be a lot of 12" fish in that lake in a few years.  I am talking tens if not hundreds of thousands.  There already are a lot of them.  Bottom line from a guy that spends a lot of time researching/studying/managing perch in that lake is...wait for it...we (fishermen) aren't going to destroy Cascade. 

(the Mojo opinin section starts here...) We can help it though.  If we killed every single 14" perch in that lake we would never have a 16" or 17" fish.  True story.  The thing is, we (fishermen) are never going to kill every single 14" fish.  The question is, do we want 30,000 15" fish, or 3000 16" fish?  This is (of course) in addition to the hundreds of thousands of fish in various sizes from 13" down to 1" or smaller.  How do you ensure there are trophys and state records in that lake?  That is a good question.  Managing a lake for trophies and also massive production is not probably achievable.  Who wins this battlle is probably more lilely to be determined by a combination of mother nature and the water managerrs than by a handful of ice fishermen...

I an going to see if I can get my biologist buddy to chime in here and add his words of wisdom.

[gunslinger]

I may b way off base but I respect the opinion of fishermen way more than the opinion of someone who gets his paycheck from SELLING licenses and hopes to retire eventually in what is a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. ( speaking of f&g )
iv talked with more than one who certainly had a get it while u can attitude. thus I don't always just take there word for it when it comes to longterm sustainability

[StrikeMojo]

I may b way off base but I respect the opinion of fishermen way more than the opinion of someone who gets his paycheck from SELLING licenses and hopes to retire eventually in what is a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. ( speaking of f&g )
iv talked with more than one who certainly had a get it while u can attitude. thus I don't always just take there word for it when it comes to longterm sustainability

In this case I think you are (off base).  His whole resonse to me was about sustaining fisheries, not selling anything.  Just sayin'...

I will try to gert him on here and see if he can change your OPINION.

[Duck-Slayer]

I may b way off base but I respect the opinion of fishermen way more than the opinion of someone who gets his paycheck from SELLING licenses and hopes to retire eventually in what is a relatively short time in the grand scheme of things. ( speaking of f&g )
iv talked with more than one who certainly had a get it while u can attitude. thus I don't always just take there word for it when it comes to longterm sustainability

X2, agreed,
Matt

[97sx]

I think to simply put it, Cascade is a trophy perch fishery.  Is the IDFG willing to give it that designation?  If so, I would like to see the lake marketed and managed accordingly.

Marketing it accordingly will bring in the $$$ and managing it accordingly will keep it a trophy fishery!

[k2muskie]

97sx couldn't agree more.  Hey shoot me a PM and the property you have and details about it if you'd like.  Thank You

[sdhuntandfish]

If so, I would like to see the lake marketed

Be careful what you wish for. Cascade isnt a 150,000 acre Devils Lake. Cascade is sucessful because of many factors, one being the lack of fishing pressure in general. When a lake in the midwest starts kicking out fish of that caliber, the thundering herd shows up leaving the lake raped and pillaged. The word isnt out as much as you'd think...

The best example I can think of is Cattail-Kettle lake complex in NE SD a few years back. In one month (January), ice anglers were estimated to have harvested over 250,000 big perch - One month. That lake has only produced mediocre perch fishing since. This prompted South Dakota to really study perch populations and reduce perch limits. We are now at 15 perch/day.

[97sx]

Don't get me wrong SD...I don't want it marketed without a proper management plan in place beforehand.  I.E. a slot or some form of limit.

[sdhuntandfish]

Another quick fact. Some say that if a limit was put into place, people wouldn't go up to Cascade. This is just plain false. They said the same here when the limit was put down from 25. Guess what? People like to catch quality fish regardless of how many they can kill. The people still came, the hotels and restaurants still stayed full, and we are getting better at preserving quality fisheries. 

[gunslinger]

In this case I think you are (off base).  His whole resonse to me was about sustaining fisheries, not selling anything.  Just sayin'...

I will try to gert him on here and see if he can change your OPINION.

he didn't need to sell u u r already obviously hooked on fishing lol ur on ice shanty!
But had he told u the supply was les than unlimited it may cause u to deter woodbe fishermen and possible new license buyers ( heaven forbid out of state license buyers ha ha) just food for thought

[hugeinchina]

Yeah those out of staters are the worst...wait.  I fish Idaho exclusively and grew up in Sandpoint, but just moved back to the area and live on the WA side. I already pay an out of state higher price for the right to fish the state that I will always call home.

[gunslinger]

Yeah those out of staters are the worst...wait.  I fish Idaho exclusively and grew up in Sandpoint, but just moved back to the area and live on the WA side. I already pay an out of state higher price for the right to fish the state that I will always call home.

I would surely do the same. I fish both Idaho and Oregon  just hav a sour taste cuz my favorite deer unit is managed to bring in out of state money and after 11 years I cant draw but I suppose that beef is for another forum lol

[StrikeMojo]

Long story short...Fishermen take less than 10% of the population of greater than 10" perch from Cascade annually.  This number is based on tagged fish returns over the last few years.  The fish in that lake start spawning when they are 4-6" long.  The big (14"+) fish are all about 8-9 years old, which puts them at the end of their life cycle.  They will likely all be gone after this spawning cycle, or next year's at the latest.  The bad news is that the big fish got that way because there was no competition for food when they were first stocked (and in their prime growth period), and now there is plenty of competition from the day they hatch.  We will likely not have 15+" perch again in Cascade after this age class dies of old age or is harvested.  The good news is there is a ton (hundreds of thousands) of 8"-10" +/- fish that will be 12" fish in a year or two.  Cascade will continue to kick out piles of 12" perch for years to come.  Probably a few in the 14" range (based on historical data).  The life cycle on the monsters is limited, so go catch your wall hanger now. 

If you really want the straight story on Cascade, call the guy that fixed the lake like I did.  Better yet volunteer to help him and his guys with some of their projects and give back to the lake we all love.

[curt69]

I would surely do the same. I fish both Idaho and Oregon  just hav a sour taste cuz my favorite deer unit is managed to bring in out of state money and after 11 years I cant draw but I suppose that beef is for another forum lol

Non residents can only draw 10 percent of the tags in any controlled hunt . So if there is 10 permits in your unit they can only have 1 . And they pay 10 times more for the same tag as you .It's there fault you can't draw a tag ?

[97sx]

Long story short...Fishermen take less than 10% of the population of greater than 10" perch from Cascade annually.  This number is based on tagged fish returns over the last few years.  The fish in that lake start spawning when they are 4-6" long.  The big (14"+) fish are all about 8-9 years old, which puts them at the end of their life cycle.  They will likely all be gone after this spawning cycle, or next year's at the latest.  The bad news is that the big fish got that way because there was no competition for food when they were first stocked (and in their prime growth period), and now there is plenty of competition from the day they hatch.  We will likely not have 15+" perch again in Cascade after this age class dies of old age or is harvested.  The good news is there is a ton (hundreds of thousands) of 8"-10" +/- fish that will be 12" fish in a year or two.  Cascade will continue to kick out piles of 12" perch for years to come.  Probably a few in the 14" range (based on historical data).  The life cycle on the monsters is limited, so go catch your wall hanger now. 

If you really want the straight story on Cascade, call the guy that fixed the lake like I did.  Better yet volunteer to help him and his guys with some of their projects and give back to the lake we all love.

I am not certain I buy that Strike.  The 15"+ have been coming out on a regular basis for a handful of years now.  Can it not be managed accordingly for this to continue?

I tend to think it can.  I have fished trophy bass lakes from California to Florida.  They are managed to produce year after year (limits, slots, etc.)  I get that most places don't want to be known for perch, but Cascade has the potential for that notoriety.  Are you saying that the species itself cannot be manged to consistently grow to trophy size?  I understand the cycles, but I don't understand how if a place is currently producing trophies why it cannot be managed to continue to produce trophies (granted there may be a year or two worse than others because of the cyclic effect.)  Also throwing out major natural disasters like drought, algae bloom, etc.

I have no problem asking these questions to ones who know way more than myself!

We have a good fishing discussion going on here guys.  Don't get it locked out because of the hunting talk.

[Ifish/Hunt]

Idaho Fish and Game likes to sell the fish and game in the state. They have to make money some how, and its thru selling licenses. So if by any chance slot/size limits get brought up they immediately play the money card, not only that but they would have to enforce the rules. I am 40 and have been fishing and hunting in Idaho most of that time and I have been checked fishing and hunting only a hand full of times. There are so so many rivers and lakes in the state that should have catch limits to help grow big fish of all spices. IN MY OPINION  And if possible I try to release all the fish I catch but sometimes you cant. Keep what you can eat, I see people down at CJ in there boats with BUCKETS of perch, you really think you can eat a whole BUCKET of perch? Doubtful Anyway back to your regularly scheduled program..

[Duck-Slayer]

Long story short...Fishermen take less than 10% of the population of greater than 10" perch from Cascade annually.  This number is based on tagged fish returns over the last few years.  The fish in that lake start spawning when they are 4-6" long.  The big (14"+) fish are all about 8-9 years old, which puts them at the end of their life cycle.  They will likely all be gone after this spawning cycle, or next year's at the latest.  The bad news is that the big fish got that way because there was no competition for food when they were first stocked (and in their prime growth period), and now there is plenty of competition from the day they hatch.  We will likely not have 15+" perch again in Cascade after this age class dies of old age or is harvested.  The good news is there is a ton (hundreds of thousands) of 8"-10" +/- fish that will be 12" fish in a year or two.  Cascade will continue to kick out piles of 12" perch for years to come.  Probably a few in the 14" range (based on historical data).  The life cycle on the monsters is limited, so go catch your wall hanger now. 

If you really want the straight story on Cascade, call the guy that fixed the lake like I did.  Better yet volunteer to help him and his guys with some of their projects and give back to the lake we all love.

so some of the research I did say they will live as long as 13 years, I have a hard time thinking they will only live 1 or 2 more years.... and putting a slot limit in place will help the larger fish grow bigger... take out the competition of the young or old age, let them live between 12-14 inches, the good eater's are from 8 too 12 anyway... just have too keep control of the little one's (less than 5"), there the one's that need too be thinned, and those 12-14 inches are the one's helping do that..... along with the trout and smallmouth bass... it would be a great fishery with the right amount of predators along with reasonable harvest.  and go catch that wall hanger comment is what's wrong with the fish and game, instead of doing something about it you add too the destruction.  , I would volunteer too run nets and catch all the little F'ers that are keeping other's from getting bigger, i'm sure there are a couple others too that would help out a couple weekends during the summer in between fishing. 
Matt

[gunslinger]

Non residents can only draw 10 percent of the tags in any controlled hunt . So if there is 10 permits in your unit they can only have 1 . And they pay 10 times more for the same tag as you .It's there fault you can't draw a tag ?

no fish and games fault.
they manage it to b a guarantee big buck to atract  revenue from the thousands of out of staters that put in. Instead of managing it for healthy numbers and opportunity for more than 150 tags and the possibility of a good buck. But like I said that particular point is my personal beef and detracts from my point I should hav left it out

[StrikeMojo]

It has nothing to do with how long they live, it has everything to do with competition for food at age 0 to 3 or 4.  That is where the trophy fish are made.  Growth rates of the largest fish are very slow.  If you want huge perch you need to remove the competition at that age (0 to 3 or 4).  Remove 90% of the fry to age 4 fish, and you will continue to have trophys.  Pretty simple really.  The problem with doing that is, you will lose the forage that the larger fish like trout and bass thrive on.  I hate to point out the obvious, but when there is no competition for food, and there is plenty of it, fish grow fast.  Look at the size of the bluegills that came out of the Bruneau Dunes when it was first stocked.  Strike, when it was first stocked kicked out huge crappie, perch, and bluegills.  Once the population in any body of water reaches carrying capacity everything stabilizes.  It can be a roller-coaster for a few years, but it will stabilize and we will see a ton of the "regular sized" 12 inch perch.  There will still be some larger ones, but the proliference of 15+ inch fish will go away.  He also stated you need a large body of water to produce a good perch fishery.  Smaller lakes end up with stunted fish in a hurry. 

I am not the expert, but I took the time to find out who that is, and talk to him.  You all don't have to agree with me, and you can do what you like with the information, but it stands on it's own merit.  I can tell you, I thanked him several times for providing us the opportunity we now have.  I don't think they ever expected to see fish the size we have now, but he wasn't too suprised.  He did say we are in for some great fishing in the future, and they are continuing to monitor the Pike-Minnow population, and will control it when necessary to preserve what we have.

[97sx]

Thanks for the info Strike.

I have no science to back my logic, but based on what you have just stated wouldn't a 12"-14" slot make sense?  Preserve the likelihood that a fish could grow 15+ and it would also keep an abundance of larger fish to prey on the fry to prevent overpopulation?

[turdfurgeson]

Well, There it is! I am out to catch the NEW state record this weekend. Sorry woodland! Oh! and I am keeping my new record  fish! Sorry Duckslayer!

[sdhuntandfish]

Oh! and I am keeping my new record  fish! Sorry Duckslayer!

Well played, sir! 

[bowhunter68]

Good valid points Andy...and everyone else for that matter. I have a good friend/fishing buddy that is a fisheries biologist and I am going to reach out to him and cut and paste his comments as well.

[Duck-Slayer]

Well, There it is! I am out to catch the NEW state record this weekend. Sorry woodland! Oh! and I am keeping my new record  fish! Sorry Duckslayer!

I have choice words for people like you... Which I will not share on this public forum... But too let everyone know I DON'T LIKE YOU..... Stop referring about anything I say.... your dirogitory comments got another thread locked... Go away...
Matt

[bullpine]

IDAHO
DEPARTMENT OF FISH & GAME
Jerry M. Conley, Director
The yellow perch fishery on Cascade Reservoir is one of the most popular in
the state. In an effort to maintain this fishery, we should further
investigate perch life history and population dynamics in Cascade
Reservoir to shed light on potential management techniques and options
for this important consumptive fishery.

Sounds like Jerry likes to eat perch too!

[Duck-Slayer]

When was the date of that news post?
Matt

[gunslinger]

Well, There it is! I am out to catch the NEW state record this weekend. Sorry woodland! Oh! and I am keeping my new record  fish! Sorry Duckslayer!

I am very interested in all the info on this discussion and would appreciate if u don't get it locked by intentionally taking jabs at those concerned fishermen trying to hav an adult discussion.
Thanks
Cody

[rickgehrke]

derogatory.