corn as laker chum, please don't, its not pretty.

[Coffin Dodger]

Agreed, I just think its silly that anyone can complain that chumming with corn complains that it kills fish.  Especially when the only way they find out what the fish was eating is to kill it and look inside its stomach.  the end results are the same....a dead fish.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees this hypocracy
-Jack

Jack
Here are my thoughts.. we all have the option of killing a limit of fish, if we choose. I'm not really seeing the hypocrisy?? Adrien or a client chooses to kill a fish and finds chum that he feels is detrimental to fish that have not been killed or died yet. Consider it data. Not all fish that are eating corn for chum are going to be caught this year or next. They are not all inclusive.  I think his post was intended to help the fishery for all of us.
All opinions make for good discussion, but please don't shoot the messenger.     

[bud]

Lets feed the rockbass corn.....

[potatomansoup]

Lets feed the rockbass corn.....

Rock bass are delicious! Eat them instead of Lakers which are fun to catch but almost always disappointing to eat (comparatively)

As far as feeding fish corn, I would be interested in seeing a real study done... just because it "looks" bad doesn't mean it is... but it would be worth holding off using corn until we have real data, just in case.

[Hardwata]

Commission fisheries biologist Tom Bender at our Benner Spring Fish Research Station conducted a study in 1992 that examined the impact of corn on trout. For the study, two groups of hatchery rainbow trout were held in separate tanks and tested for 54 days. In one tank, 20 rainbow trout (average size 8.3 inches) were fed a diet of whole kernel corn. In the second tank, 20 rainbow trout of the same size were fed a standard trout pellet diet.
During the 54 day study period, no mortalities occurred from trout of either study group. However, study results did show that the trout fed with a corn diet did not digest the corn particularly well. The growth observed by the corn-fed trout during the study period was only about half of that observed from the trout that were fed the standard trout pellet diet.

The conclusion from this study was that there appears to be little reason for concern about the short term health hazards for rainbow trout when whole kernel corn is used for bait. Although there are better diets for trout than whole kernel corn, this study confirms that mortality does not occur when trout ingest whole kernel corn.




For the people that didn't get to read this.  My only problem with this is comparing growth rates with trout pellets/dog food and corn. one has a lot more protein.........

[6wheels]

Uh . . . chumming with suckers instead of corn isn't particularly good for the sucker's digestion. By which enlightened authority does one get to decide that one species get to "digest more efficiently" so that another can be whacked over the head then cut up in small pieces? we got some blinders on here folks.

[mikejd]

Use cream corn. Easier to digest.

[TogueRogue]

Probably just me but I have always been a little uneasy with littering the bottom of our lakes with chum, i.e., corn, suckers, marshmallows, cat food, kibbles & bits or anything else people use...I'm not an eco-nut or anything, just uncomfortable with the thought of it so I don't do it...      TR

[sorelippin]

This has always been an interesting debate and one with many opinions.  May take is that even if it doesn't kill a fish, it does stunt the growth rates and as fishermen, that should be a concern.  If there are 100 people on the big lake dropping hundreds of pounds of corn throughout the year, how many fish will that ultimately affect?  I don't know the answer but I'm confident it reaches more than most would think.  I'd rather exercise a "best practice" for the fishery as a whole even if the esteemed powers that be don't find much in a short 54 day study.....although slowing the growth rates by half should raise awareness/concern of some sort. 

[TheOutdoorsman]

The conclusion from this study was that there appears to be little reason for concern about the short term health hazards for rainbow trout when whole kernel corn is used for bait. Although there are better diets for trout than whole kernel corn, this study confirms that mortality does not occur when trout ingest whole kernel corn.

What about the long-term effects?  The author of the article (this is not the actual study report) appears to be reaching a bit in their own interpretations.  Remember, this article was written by somebody who read the study and formulated their own interpretations.  The only thing that the study confirmed was that trout grew slower on a corn diet relative to trout pellets, and that they did not die during the study in a hatchery setting, during a study that may not have been long enough to assess mortality because fish can take a long time to die. 

That has no bearing on impacts to a wild fish, which has a greater energetic need to survive.  Personally, I would rather be safe than sorry when it comes to a fishery, rather than use something that could cause harm for my own selfish means.  If a practice is questionable, even if it is legal, it deserves criticism.

[Surfcaster]

Humans:  We are the worst thing that has happened to this planet.  We do nothing but consume and destroy. My.02.

[Oddfish]

Just a thought, but if they eat the corn so well................wh y not put it on the hook instead of throwing it on the bottom.  You can set a retrievable corn bag near by as an attractant.  Then you get the benefit of the corn while not flooding the bottom with it.

Another thought.   Some of you are missing the big picture of what a fishes natural food source is.  These food webs evolved over millions of years, corn is not on the plan, suckers are.  Fish need mostly oil and protein, and very little carb.  Corn is almost all carb.  I worked for UNH with ocean aquaculture and I can tell you first hand that poor diet will lead to long term mortality and stunted growth.  Some of our studies went for over two years.  Even the type of protein used makes a huge difference.  There is only so much soy protein one can add to the diet before growth reduction sets in. 

You should listen to TheOutdoorsman, he is dead on.  I suspect if you ask for his credentials you will find he has been working with this type of stuff for a long time.

As for sucker fish vs lakers, some of you need to look up some ecological definitions......pinna cle predator would be a good one to start with......fecundity would be another.

Oddfish

[Oz 1]

That laker ate a lot of corn.

[6wheels]

Yo Oddfish, I totally disagree. I think we should trust the decisions of our highly trained fisheries biologists. Also, fecundity, or the ability to reproduce abundantly, was the excuse for the wholesale pollution of the Merrimack River water shed in the earlier part of the last century. The excuse that Atlantic Salmon reproduced in such numbers that they could overcome a little mortality didn't work out so well, now did it.

[Oddfish]

Yo Oddfish, I totally disagree. I think we should trust the decisions of our highly trained fisheries biologists. Also, fecundity, or the ability to reproduce abundantly, was the excuse for the wholesale pollution of the Merrimack River water shed in the earlier part of the last century. The excuse that Atlantic Salmon reproduced in such numbers that they could overcome a little mortality didn't work out so well, now did it.

I think you missed my point completely.  What is it you think our fisheries biologist think about corn?  I know they are not abdicating feeding lakers a diet of pure corn.
The fecundity of Lakers (as a species not necessarily of an individual) is much lower that that of sucker species.  This comment was pointed toward whoever was noting that some fish are arbitrarily allowed to be killed more that other species.
As far as highly trained fisheries biologist, I would be considered a highly trained aquatic ecologist both from an educational, and a professional stand point.  I spent much of the 1990's and 2000's working as a environmental consultant for this and many other states, the feds, Army Corp, EPA, etc.  Much of the data we took helped shape the fisheries in this state and others.  And respectfully speaking, corn is not the diet of choice for lakers.  If you have any documentation supporting corn as the choice diet I would love to see it.

Oddfish

[JoeGG]

I agree wholeheartedly with you Adrien, but that pic is going to tell all the nonsportsmen out there to chum with corn, and you know they outnumber us by a longshot.

[fun fishing]

Oddfish well educated answer! Some people just don't get it. My feeling is one shouldn't be using corn just because it might make it easier to catch a laker. I have never used corn or will I! Ground up sucker or even sardines work great I think but what do I know

[ScreaminSpool]

This is just my opinion.  I think the intent of this topic will backfire.  Given the fact that corn is legal and has been proven to not harm fish, I believe that a picture of a laker stuffed with corn will encourage chumming rather than discourage it 

[Oddfish]

This is just my opinion.  I think the intent of this topic will backfire.  Given the fact that corn is legal and has been proven to not harm fish, I believe that a picture of a laker stuffed with corn will encourage chumming rather than discourage it 

You are probably correct, but I can't help what other people think.  It is legal, but if you don't raise the moral obligation once in a while your just not doing your job. 

What people do with the topic after it is raised is their own business.  Personally I've seen laker bellies full of smelt too......hmmmmmm? I've seen Sallies so full of stocked 10" brookies that their belly is moving.  Fish eat....A hungry fish eats almost anything.  Almost all stocked Rainbows go through a time where they can't find pellets in the open water and then take to eating small rocks with snails on them, then they learn to eat live fish.  Almost all cusk bellies I have opened this winter have crayfish in them, but we fish with live or dead fish for them.  In my opinion corn is like using a worm and a bobber in a river pool for stocked brookies after the spring water level drops.  It's totally legal, and kinda like shooting fish in a barrel.  If you want to do that, go ahead it's legal.  But just don't try to tell me it's good for the fish, cause it's not.

Randy Whisler

[winnisquam guy]

as a fisherman, i for one care about the health of the fisheries i enjoy . i care that garbage is picked up, i care that i leave nothing behind and i care to release all fish as unharmed as possible.
I also care to only use baits that are natural to the water body i fish(unless fly fishing). i care not to introduce things into the waterbody that is foreign and or invasive.
if you enjoy catching fish then respect the waters you utilize by keeping it pure. I'll never use corn, cat food, dog food, wd 40 , explosives or any other means just so i can say i caught fish. if it's not natural to the waterbody you fish, you can bet that it ain't no good for it either. sorry for the rant but i find it irritating and irresponsible to do anything less than to respect the waterbodies i so much enjoy

[laker_taker]

amen to that w.g.   KEEP IT NATURAL 

[TogueRogue]

as a fisherman, i for one care about the health of the fisheries i enjoy . i care that garbage is picked up, i care that i leave nothing behind and i care to release all fish as unharmed as possible.
I also care to only use baits that are natural to the water body i fish(unless fly fishing). i care not to introduce things into the waterbody that is foreign and or invasive.
if you enjoy catching fish then respect the waters you utilize by keeping it pure. I'll never use corn, cat food, dog food, wd 40 , explosives or any other means just so i can say i caught fish. if it's not natural to the waterbody you fish, you can bet that it ain't no good for it either. sorry for the rant but i find it irritating and irresponsible to do anything less than to respect the waterbodies i so much enjoy

Well stated WG....totally agree...This is going to get under the skin of a lot of people but I equate chumming for fish to baiting for bear, yes it is an effective method of killing one but, really, is it 'fair chase' hunting where you are pitting your skills against that of the bear...I think not....     TR

[Yukoner]

We don't bait for bear (illegal up here), or chum for fish, however I understand that if it is legal there must be some management rationale for allowing it.  I wonder how may jurisdictions actually allow chumming for fish?

Ted

[6wheels]

Well corn is certainly not the preferred diet of lake trout. But neither is a feathered jig or a metallic spoon with a treble hook at the end. As humans, we deceive the fish into being caught - there is no such thing as catching a fish "naturally" because we insert ourselves as fishermen into the equation. My point is; no matter what anyone's skill set or education - we depend (and fund for that matter) the biologists and law enforcement professionals at Fish and Game to make the rules that provide for conservation of our resources. Now some may decide to only fly fish as a personal challenge and others may prefer to use a worm and bobber. That's a personal choice and regulated by The Fish and Game department. Some may decide to use corn as chum or bait and some may not. Again, a choice regulated by those we trust with protecting the resource. To Adrien's credit, I do sympathize with his particular situation as a guide; its pretty difficult to sell your customers on the wild fishing adventure when the fish you catch have been gorging on corn.

[Hardwata]

Well stated WG....totally agree...This is going to get under the skin of a lot of people but I equate chumming for fish to baiting for bear, yes it is an effective method of killing one but, really, is it 'fair chase' hunting where you are pitting your skills against that of the bear...I think not....     TR

do you hunt? If so do you use a weapon? maybe we should stop using hooks for fishing, we could just cut a hole in the ice and swim down and catch em bare handed... You know so its a "fair chase"... 

[huntr-]

Well corn is certainly not the preferred diet of lake trout. But neither is a feathered jig or a metallic spoon with a treble hook at the end. As humans, we deceive the fish into being caught - there is no such thing as catching a fish "naturally" because we insert ourselves as fishermen into the equation. My point is; no matter what anyone's skill set or education - we depend (and fund for that matter) the biologists and law enforcement professionals at Fish and Game to make the rules that provide for conservation of our resources. Now some may decide to only fly fish as a personal challenge and others may prefer to use a worm and bobber. That's a personal choice and regulated by The Fish and Game department. Some may decide to use corn as chum or bait and some may not. Again, a choice regulated by those we trust with protecting the resource. To Adrien's credit, I do sympathize with his particular situation as a guide; its pretty difficult to sell your customers on the wild fishing adventure when the fish you catch have been gorging on corn.   

    Well said. now lets debate hunting with black guns versus traditional hunting firearms and limiting the caliber so we do not overkill or prey,,,,,just kidding.

[winnisquam guy]

Well stated WG....totally agree...This is going to get under the skin of a lot of people but I equate chumming for fish to baiting for bear, yes it is an effective method of killing one but, really, is it 'fair chase' hunting where you are pitting your skills against that of the bear...I think not....     TR

thank you, let it be said that i do chum, i use cut sucker or baitfish as chum. as for the comparison to hunting, you can't compare the two as i always throw back everything i catch regardless of size. Now you can't do that hunting.
while i advocate for keeping it natural, I'm not here to criticize ones choice of using corn.  but i know what happens when i eat corn and use the jon.
if you do use corn, try some sucker meat. you may find it more effective but don't use it as a snack.

[TogueRogue]

do you hunt? If so do you use a weapon? maybe we should stop using hooks for fishing, we could just cut a hole in the ice and swim down and catch em bare handed... You know so its a "fair chase"... 

I detect a tinge of hostility in your post...probably resulting from our perception of what "fair chase" means to each other...to me, the analogy between the two is accurate...sitting in a stand overlooking a pile of bait waiting for a bear to be drawn to it is akin to sitting in a shanty over a pile of bait waiting for a fish to be drawn to it...that, to me, is "unfair chase".,,my opinion, and please don't berate me for having one that may differ than yours..In both cases you are introducing an unnatural man-made element (bait) to their natural environment forcing them to behave differently than they would normally...It also holds true that to "cut a hole in the ice and swim down and catch em bare handed" would also be "unfair chase"..you then are pitting your skill as a swimmer with that of a fish and that would be unfair to you....just as trying to dispatch a bear with no weapon would be unfair to you for obvious reasons...So we try to 'even the playing field' somewhat by using weapons and hooks...And even with that, more often than not, we are on the losing end... My preference is to pursue both in their environment with them behaving as naturally as possible with nothing but weapon and/or hook....I'm a mobile ice fishermen...I don't wait for them to come to me...I go to them..I use one tipup and jig my way around (I call it 'hole trolling') until I locate the fish...Really, more power to the way people prefer to fish and/or hunt...The only thing I'm advocating is to not use bait that may potentially be harmful to the fish..corn, if not organic, may contain traces of chemicals (pesticides, growth hormones, etc..) that may be suitable for human consumption but may effect fish..I don't know...but I'm not going to take the chance...again, my opinion here, go easy on me.

TR

[Oddfish]

My last attempt then I give up.  It's not about the chumming it's about the effects long after the chumming has occurred.  Sucker chum digests properly and gives the fish the correct diet.  Corn is the equivalent of giving the fish a bag of dorritos an a box of twinkles.  No, it wont kill the fish, but it will make it less healthy.  They already have enough trouble surviving so why add a lingering effect?  Why weaken them and have lower egg counts?  If it's about catching big and many fish, why not try to promote the health of the fish rather than weaken the heard?  I'm not even going to go toward what carbohydrate break down could do to small lakes, but most carbs that are digested by bacteria create weak acid waste, the Ph is already too low in many lakes and ponds in NH for salmonoids to produce viable eggs, fermenting corn will only add to buffer the already low ph.

Randy Whisler

[The Reel Deal]

Hahaha! ohh man people, how much corn is really going down these holes?

[mikejd]

Well corn is certainly not the preferred diet of lake trout. But neither is a feathered jig or a metallic spoon with a treble hook at the end. As humans, we deceive the fish into being caught - there is no such thing as catching a fish "naturally" because we insert ourselves as fishermen into the equation. My point is; no matter what anyone's skill set or education - we depend (and fund for that matter) the biologists and law enforcement professionals at Fish and Game to make the rules that provide for conservation of our resources. Now some may decide to only fly fish as a personal challenge and others may prefer to use a worm and bobber. That's a personal choice and regulated by The Fish and Game department. Some may decide to use corn as chum or bait and some may not. Again, a choice regulated by those we trust with protecting the resource. To Adrien's credit, I do sympathize with his particular situation as a guide; its pretty difficult to sell your customers on the wild fishing adventure when the fish you catch have been gorging on corn.

^wheels who says we trust them. When money and politics are involved its best to trust no one. Just look at how the trusted atlantic fisheries destroyed the atlantic cod fishery. With lousy science to back that up.