Keyhole Slaughter

[hump]

just remove this whole thread. this sucks, go on face book for this stuff, lets talk fishing.

[onebadc20]

just remove this whole thread. this sucks, go on face book for this stuff, lets talk fishing.

 

To each, his own. I for one am a meat hunter and fisherman.  If I get a trophy when afield, than great, but the feeling of pride from being self sufficient is why alot of sportsmen enter the great outdoors.  Yes I fill my freezer with venison and fish every year. I still haven't caught a bad tasting eye or killed a deer with rotten meat no matter what the size. But I have yet to throw any of it away. I process all of my game myself and really enjoy the whole process.  Any more it really P's me off to have to buy meat from the store.

[appleye]

I been fishing Keyhole all my life, born and raised here learned to fish on Keyhole. Keyhole is up and down on size all the time. When I was young we always saw big fish being brought in. When I was old enough to fish on my own Keyhole had a great mid sized average. The peak of the big fish was about two year ago. This is just the tailing off you are seeing now. We caught a lot of big fish. My best day two yeas ago was 11 fish over 28" with the two biggest over 30". All were released.

It's strange to see how different parts of the country react to keeping fish. Two years ago in May I was on Bass Islands on Lake Erie. Everyone in our party caught and released a 10 or 11LB fish and we had pictures to back it up. We kept 6, 7, 8's. The locals gave us a had time saying the big fish needed to be removed so the smaller fish could have more room. We explained we didn't have it in us to kill a big fish. To each his own.

Every summer you see dozens of big fish carcasses in the trash can at the lake and still it puts out the big fish. I don't think we know the answer of what's right or wrong. If it's leagal then so be it. I've caught a ton of big fish and I like to CPR, that's my thing but if someone whats to keep one or 6 and have a fish fry so be it. It's there license, their time, their money, their choice as long as it was done by the Wy G&F rules so be it. I'm not going to tell them there wrong and I will tell them they caught a nice fish. That's what it's all about having a good time what ever their/your choice is.

[Kinkyline]

   The slot system(15" and over and one over 25" has worked in many places where heavy fishing pressure occurs. That is good for the big spawners(5+-9+ fish and gives the angler the shot at a big filleter or trophy. I like the 15"-20" fish for eating quality and release over 20" fish for others to catch and hopefully spawn. Let's keep this a friendly site.

[wyoutdoors]

We police ourselves just fine here. Don't like the current regs, start attending meetings and see about having them changed. Other than that...

And with that attitude, just walk on by my shanty. FYI, I release most fish and only keep eyes which are pan-sized, and a few crappie, maybe 6 to 8, when they come by. Personally I believe it is ludicrous for others - including special interests groups - to attempt to jam their east/west coast ways upon me and others. We got along fine before they began moving into the State when they couldn't afford to live in their own, or find work.

Guess you could move to a State where the laws are more restrictive or to your liking, or simply quit dragging your gear to fisheries you'd rather see "saved" and travel to where slot limits are regulated and enforced. You see, this is still America and you can fish, or not fish where you desire and as long as one follows the laws, there is little you can do. This is still the Greatest Country in the World where you and I can have an opinion, thank you very much. And in reality, you are still welcome to my shanty though the attitude had better be stowed away  

[icehunter_73]

this is a hot topic to be sure but im not sure where some of these people have the right to judge others. bottom line as long as the rules arent being broken who cares. i think alot of it depends on common sense. say i caught a non trophy eye 6lbs but its bleeding out its eyes and gills? what good does it do to turn it loose other than to feed a raccoon in the spring. also dont tell me that bigger arent good to eat. you ever had cheekmeat? so i guess use your best discretion on what you keep or turn back. and if your really pissed about the taking of big fish talk to people who can do something about it g+f and tell them to implement slot limits like 5 under say 20 and 1 over or even better like they do in minnesota+iowa say 5 20 and under none 21-28 and 1@29

[fishaholictaz]

I disagree that taking big fish is "healthy" for a lake's population... I am going to school to work for G&F and let's just say I am hoping to change the regs in WY

[Traxion]

Interesting discussion.  I've seen lots of photos over the past couple years of some hefty, hefty stringers taken from KH.  Would I have kept any of those fish?  No.  But can I say you shouldn't?  No.  It's legal, not much one can do about it.  I personally enjoy catching that big fish, opportunities have big fish in hand come very seldom.  But, I enjoy as much as anything letting the fish swim away knowing someone else can have that same feeling.  I'll admit I'm not a meat fisherman- yes I keep fish, but I don't believe that I need a limit every trip.  A few fish here and there is great.  Really, this issue is more social than biological.  Socially, we all different standards.  I firmly believe a large percentage of the ice fishing population really has the "catch a limit" mentality.  Maybe it's limited season length, or lack of open water opportunities for many ice fisherman, but I really believe that mentality exists more in ice fishing than anywhere else.  Good or bad each must decide, but bottom line is that if it is legal, nobody can do or say anything about it.  Justifying bringing home meat from your fishing as "economical" is pretty much impossible to me-  add up the per pound price with all your costs and the grocery store looks really good.  That doesn't even enter the argument for me, even with deer.

Biologically, the majority of us are just know it all armchair biologists.  I trust those folks who do it for a living and are responsible for managing our lakes.  There have been several thoughts thrown around regarding slots, length limits, etc.  I've experienced a lot of fishing with 14" minimums, and like someone stated about Glendo, you end up with a bunch of barely short fish.  I've also fished in a slot type regulation.  That is fine too, but there is a lot of catch and release, what mortality goes along with that I don't know.  I really like the one over rule, here in SD we have a one over 20" rule statewide.  The biologists who put it in place say there is no biological need for it, mainly it is a social issue.  Who knows?  One can argue that the most prolific and important spawning fish are in that 18"-24" class, which many people love to keep.  You can say as much damage is being done by keeping limits of these fish as there is by one keeping even larger fish.  Heck, for that manner you can say keeping a 14" fish is eventually eliminating a spawning class fish.  It goes on and on. 

Bottom line is do what is within the regulations.  Nothing can really be said.  But for me, I personally think each time I release a big fish how cool it would be if someone who had never experienced catching a big fish could do so a week or month or year later on that same very fish  I released. 

[Ize]

Walleyes need a slot 22"-27" or even more than that!!!!! it works and helps maintain a great eater walleye fishery of 13-20" fish.  If the regs ain't in place, keep em its your right.  If the lake gets over fished it is the G&F not having a clue what to do and I don't think they do!!!!  If you want to understand walleyes study the history of Lake Mille Lacs.  It has a 18-28" slot to help it recover and it really has and they might shrink the slot as things get better.  Its not really about creating a trophy by throwing a 28" fish back so it will be 30" later it is about keeping the prime spawners spawning!!!  But the bigger fish will be there as trophies too with a slot limit and you can keep one a day for the wall.  Why can't the G&F understand this before its too late.

[northern plains outdoors]

Slots are a good thing, I grew up fishing North and South Dakota, and over thirty years I have seen an increase in the number and quality you catch.  As a kid, I caught them mostly around 2 lbs.  Now when you get into them there are a number of 3-4 lb fish, an occassional one over 6, and lots of under 3 lbs, and somewhere you know there is one thats just amazing.  And, if your really lucky to have the right weather, conditions and your not afraid of a little wind, I spent all day on a lake in SD last summer, caught my over twenty (26") right away (9a.m.), and spent the rest of the day trying to fill my limit under twenty.  I caught 46 more fish that day, 43 were 20" to 25" fish and no I wasn't fishing lake Oahe.  Slots are a good thing, it just takes time for them to take effect.  As for keeping a 10 lbs and 7lb 13 oz on the ice in December, the ten pound had a decent sized crappie wedged in its mouth and barely got my minnow in, it was gonna die, and the other still had the spinner rig from someone else wrapped up in its gills and wasn't gonna make it either.   I like to release big ones too, but not when they are not going to make it.   

[Dorado]

Walleyes need a slot 22"-27" or even more than that!!!!! it works and helps maintain a great eater walleye fishery of 13-20" fish.  If the regs ain't in place, keep em its your right.  If the lake gets over fished it is the G&F not having a clue what to do and I don't think they do!!!!  If you want to understand walleyes study the history of Lake Mille Lacs.  It has a 18-28" slot to help it recover and it really has and they might shrink the slot as things get better.  Its not really about creating a trophy by throwing a 28" fish back so it will be 30" later it is about keeping the prime spawners spawning!!!  But the bigger fish will be there as trophies too with a slot limit and you can keep one a day for the wall.  Why can't the G&F understand this before its too late.

You have picked out one of the few lakes that there is definitive evidence that slot limits have improved the fishery.  On many, many other lakes, the data is not very conclusive.  Mille Lacs sees huge angling pressure, which is required for restrictive regulations to have any effect on recruitment and mortality of different age classes of fish.  Unless there is enough angling pressure that a sizable portion of the population are caught and released because of the change in the regulations, restrictive regs like slot limits do not make any difference. 

After the huge boom in the use of slot limits all over the US about 20 years ago, there have been quite a few studies that indicate they are of limited usefulness unless fishing pressure is the main source of mortality and lack of recruitment.  Generally that is not the case in Wyoming.

[Ize]

You have picked out one of the few lakes that there is definitive evidence that slot limits have improved the fishery.  On many, many other lakes, the data is not very conclusive.  Mille Lacs sees huge angling pressure, which is required for restrictive regulations to have any effect on recruitment and mortality of different age classes of fish.  Unless there is enough angling pressure that a sizable portion of the population are caught and released because of the change in the regulations, restrictive regs like slot limits do not make any difference. 

After the huge boom in the use of slot limits all over the US about 20 years ago, there have been quite a few studies that indicate they are of limited usefulness unless fishing pressure is the main source of mortality and lack of recruitment.  Generally that is not the case in Wyoming.

Your saying that releasing spawning females to a lake doesn't help reproduction?  How many 4-8 lb fish could there be in a reservoir?  Well I guess your saying just keep em all.  My experience is that when conditions are right and fish get hungry for whatever reason usually lack of food they get caught in big numbers until they are depleted then the lake rebuilds over time until the next cycle sometime years.  Releasing spawners reduces that cycle and keeps more year classes in the lake.  I would say that keeping 4-8 lb walleyes in the lake is very important anywhere but maybe Seminoe which gets little pressure.

[augergas]

I've never fished Keyhole but I have fished in quite a few different states, and do fish Glendo quite a bit. My own personal opinion of the way WG&F manages the walleye take is that they really should reduce the 6 fish limit to four. We also have the 15" size limit in the Nebraska lakes I fish and I am not at all convinced that is a good idea either. Far too many small fish get killed by fishermen using live bait. I think the mortality is very high in the hot summer months. On lakes that use a slot like 22"-28", I have seen the healthiest fishery for walleye. 4 fish with a 22 to 26 slot... the way to go, IMO.

As far as keeping big fish...I think we all need to recognize that it is legal and not judge others. All biologists I have spoken with tell me that the really large females are infertile and that the 21 to 25" female is the biggest reproducer. There is no valid argument to throw them back other than to give another guy a shot at em. My own philosophy (and it is just that, my own): if I have fish to eat in the freezer, I can't see cleaning a big fish just for the meat. It's a big thrill to catch em so I pitch em back.

I have caught several really large females during the spawn and their eggs are clear. Look at a 22" female's eggs and they have a deep color to them. From what I understand, those clear eggs are nothing more than fish food.

[er-e-is]

I have never fished Keyhole, sounds like it might be time for a road trip. I can see both sides of this story. The bottom line is that if the fish that are being kept, are within a persons daily/posession limit, then it's up to the individual what they keep. If you disagree then go to the G & F meetings and express your opinion's.

[Dorado]

Your saying that releasing spawning females to a lake doesn't help reproduction?  Well I guess your saying just keep em all. 

That is not what I am saying.  What I am saying is that the difference between the number of large spawning fish being killed under current regulations and the number that would be killed with a slot limit is not great enough to warrant changes.

If there are enough people killing big spawning females to affect future recruitment, then the slot limits work.  But that is not always why recruitment rates (surviving to a given age class) change from year to year. Reproduction and recruitment are not the same thing.   Spawning conditions, water levels forage etc. can have more of an impact on the survival of eggs to catchable sized fish than the number of spawing fish.  I am not advocating killing large spawning females, just pointing out that I do not think a slot limit would make much difference.

[Ize]

Thanks augergas!  You understand.

[fishwhisperer307]

wow this whole discussion is retarded..........i catch and release all my fish but people are gonna do whatever the hell they want to do. crying about it on a blog is not gonna change anything .......

[msmith1956]

I don't think most are whining about anything, just stating personal opinions and there's nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact I know there's at lest one game and fish biologist that has been monitoring this discussion and it doesn't hurt for them to see how the fishing public feels about this topic. Keep the comments coming, I think think it's been interesting.

[sledder]

 You're dreaming if you think WYGF would have any comment.They're only interested in collecting license fees and staying on top of office politics.

[Dorado]

The forum I regularly follow for Utah fishing (not ice shanty)... The lead biologist for Utah's warm water species is on there and contributes.  He'll answer questions, etc.

It is nice.

It is nice, but you will notice from his forum that people are civil...

[hump]

the in-fishermen staff let the big ones go to preserve the fishery and promote keeping a shore lunch. I think they know thier stuff.

[sgpitman]

?

he's probably referring to sledder who obviously doesn't like anyone. Hey sle maybe you whould go to school to be a biologist,  get a job with game and fish, and then you can change thing or at least then give an educated opinion.

[Icatchfish]

Wow-what a hot topic!!  I say to each their own, if it is within the law. I prefer to bowhunt or blackpowder hunt, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sell my 30-06 or  tell my neighbor he should sell his 7mm mag. In Colorado they manage the walleye-saugeye fisheries on a lake to lake basis, taking into conisderation the fishing pressure, reproduction, forage stability, etc.. I can't say that I have always agreed with the decisions of our Division of Wildlife, I have even gotten into some heated discussions with some of them at public input meetings, but the fact remains that the hunting and walleye fishing in Colorado have never been better in my lifetime than  it is now. They are the experts  and are passionate about their jobs. If they feel that Keyhole does not need a special slot limit, it probably doesn't. And let me tell ya, I have practiced catch and release on tens of thousands of walleyes, but a 10 lber comes along, I can assure you I'm keeping it.

[WGFFishBio]

I wish a game and fish official would join this site.  Their input would be awesome.

You guys have got your wish. I am a Fisheries Biologist in the Sheridan Region and the biologist for Keyhole. I got permission to join the site to help with discussions and to help answer any questions.

As far as Keyhole goes. I try to get out there as often as I can, to sample and collect as much data as I can. As it stands now, Keyhole does not need a special regulation on walleye. In order for a slot, minimum length or max length limit to work, total mortality (natural + hooking or harvest) must be greater than 35%. Total mortality for Keyhole walleye has never been over 25%. It wouldn't work right now. We would end up with a population of stunted walleyes or walleyes that had to be released because they were in the slot. But believe me, when the data tells me that a regulation would improve the walleye within Keyhole, I'll be the first to do it.

Glad to be on the site. Holler if'n ya got ? I'll do my best to keep current.

[FireonIce]

You guys have got your wish. I am a Fisheries Biologist in the Sheridan Region and the biologist for Keyhole. I got permission to join the site to help with discussions and to help answer any questions.

As far as Keyhole goes. I try to get out there as often as I can, to sample and collect as much data as I can. As it stands now, Keyhole does not need a special regulation on walleye. In order for a slot, minimum length or max length limit to work, total mortality (natural + hooking or harvest) must be greater than 35%. Total mortality for Keyhole walleye has never been over 25%. It wouldn't work right now. We would end up with a population of stunted walleyes or walleyes that had to be released because they were in the slot. But believe me, when the data tells me that a regulation would improve the walleye within Keyhole, I'll be the first to do it.

Glad to be on the site. Holler if'n ya got ? I'll do my best to keep current.

Thank you for your professional advice! I appreciate you stepping up to the plate on here and putting some resolve to this issue finally! This seems to come up every couple of weeks with the same opinions and arguments.

[WYeyes]

Great to have the G&F on the site. Welcome. Be really nice to have someone on board that can answer some of the questions that come up.

[augergas]

You guys have got your wish. I am a Fisheries Biologist in the Sheridan Region and the biologist for Keyhole. I got permission to join the site to help with discussions and to help answer any questions.

As far as Keyhole goes. I try to get out there as often as I can, to sample and collect as much data as I can. As it stands now, Keyhole does not need a special regulation on walleye. In order for a slot, minimum length or max length limit to work, total mortality (natural + hooking or harvest) must be greater than 35%. Total mortality for Keyhole walleye has never been over 25%. It wouldn't work right now. We would end up with a population of stunted walleyes or walleyes that had to be released because they were in the slot. But believe me, when the data tells me that a regulation would improve the walleye within Keyhole, I'll be the first to do it.

Glad to be on the site. Holler if'n ya got ? I'll do my best to keep current.

Thanks for joining in. It will be interesting to hear how this works. By total mortality, do you mean the total number of the species that dies or is harvested in one year or is that based on some other life cycle?

thanks.

[Wyofarmer]

You guys have got your wish. I am a Fisheries Biologist in the Sheridan Region and the biologist for Keyhole. I got permission to join the site to help with discussions and to help answer any questions.

As far as Keyhole goes. I try to get out there as often as I can, to sample and collect as much data as I can. As it stands now, Keyhole does not need a special regulation on walleye. In order for a slot, minimum length or max length limit to work, total mortality (natural + hooking or harvest) must be greater than 35%. Total mortality for Keyhole walleye has never been over 25%. It wouldn't work right now. We would end up with a population of stunted walleyes or walleyes that had to be released because they were in the slot. But believe me, when the data tells me that a regulation would improve the walleye within Keyhole, I'll be the first to do it.

Glad to be on the site. Holler if'n ya got ? I'll do my best to keep current.
YES! thank you Lord! now there won't be as much speculation. Thank you for joining WGF! This might even help you with some information on the fisheries. 

[WGFFishBio]

Thanks for joining in. It will be interesting to hear how this works. By total mortality, do you mean the total number of the species that dies or is harvested in one year or is that based on some other life cycle?

thanks.

Yes, total mortality is natural mortality (died of old age, got eaten by a bigger eye or pike) plus harvest mortality (fish that are kept by anglers). We use creel survey data, age structure data, and catch data to help determine the value. For comparison, Glendo's total mortality (and the reason the regulation was changed) was found to be only 35% (right on the cusp of a regulation working). Glendo sees and extrodinary amount of harvest, yet total mortality is only 35%. Might give you some perspective.

[augergas]

Yes, total mortality is natural mortality (died of old age, got eaten by a bigger eye or pike) plus harvest mortality (fish that are kept by anglers). We use creel survey data, age structure data, and catch data to help determine the value. For comparison, Glendo's total mortality (and the reason the regulation was changed) was found to be only 35% (right on the cusp of a regulation working). Glendo sees and extrodinary amount of harvest, yet total mortality is only 35%. Might give you some perspective.

Does the WGF stock walleye in Keyhole or Glendo? If so, does this mortality number have some bearing on how many fish are stocked?