Lithium battery pack feasibility

[DrewFlu33]

I started to put this in the electronics section but felt it was a bit more "general" than that - mods, please move if I'm mistaken in my assessment.

I've been looking around at some options for using lithium instead of the standard SLA batteries we so often use.  My main goal is to both get more usable amp hours out of a battery and to cut down on weight.  I know that temperature control is important in this regard and am ready to deal with that.   

I've seen the lithium batteries that come in the same "case" with the same terminals as our standard SLA "flasher batteries" for $100 and up (maybe as low as $90 on sale), and have come really close to pulling the trigger on a couple occasions.  Unless I'm mistaken, these are usually marketed as 12v 9 ah or 10 ah batteries that will outlast a SLA of similar ratings because of the discharge profile of lithiums - essentially that you get full voltage until it dies while a SLA will drop voltage too low for usage before being dead.  They also tend to weigh significantly less and can handle significantly more charging cycles during their lifetime.

I've come across some other lithium battery packs that don't come in the same convenient "case" that we use and that fits into our flasher cases so well, but that are still 12v and seem to offer significantly higher ah ratings.  This is one example on Amazon - 12v 20,000 mAh for $60.  I'm not necessarily buying this exact one - for starters it appears to be shipping from China.  But when considering batteries like this, assuming I'm reading it right and the specs are accurate, this would be 12v and 20 ah, or more than twice the rated ah of a 1290 SLA battery.  Is that right?

My follow up question for those who are much more knowledgeable about batteries than I am: is there any reason aside from the inconvenient form/size for why I should not buy something like what I've linked, cut off the connectors, and use it as a power source to power my flasher, lights, etc. via alligator clips or similar? 

I have a charger that is designed for charging lithium batteries that I would be able to use in this situation, so removing the connectors the supplied charger uses wouldn't be an issue.

(I realize I could also outfit my lights and other power-hungry items with the pole connectors this battery comes with to avoid cutting wires, I'm more asking about the feasibility of using a battery pack like this on the ice).

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!!

[Gimper]

Corrosion would be my biggest concern. The heat shrink won't totally seal that pack. And if it is used for ice fishing, it will get wet.

I picked up a couple of 15 Ah from here;

https://www.bioennopower.com/collections/12v-series-lifepo4-batteries

Great folks to deal with. I got the 15Ah cause I'm running my 9 inch color graph which is thirsty for power. Like you I was looking for more Ah in a lighter package, but what is really cool about these batteries is how fast they charge. I also run the battery summer and winter and I have over 300 charges on one battery with no signs of slowly down. I will never go back to SLA's ever again. Not even the cost is an upside for an SLA.

[justborn]

Not all specifications are equal.  The number of cells on the cheaper battery linked is probably one less than the larger examples.   A 12 volt SLA replacement needs to have a resting voltage well above 12 volts,  three cells isn't enough.  Also, other batteries like battery jumper/boosters are specified using a high current draw over a very short duration to come up with their big A/hr ratings.

I've never noticed a performance issue for low draw applications when sub zero.  I use clean republic batteries and always set my flashers on the ice.  I left a graph outside all day yesterday, it was -5 with 10-15 mph winds.

[DrewFlu33]

Appreciate the responses so far!

Not all specifications are equal.  The number of cells on the cheaper battery linked is probably one less than the larger examples.   A 12 volt SLA replacement needs to have a resting voltage well above 12 volts,  three cells isn't enough.  Also, other batteries like battery jumper/boosters are specified using a high current draw over a very short duration to come up with their big A/hr ratings.

I've never noticed a performance issue for low draw applications when sub zero.  I use clean republic batteries and always set my flashers on the ice.  I left a graph outside all day yesterday, it was -5 with 10-15 mph winds.

Just want to be sure we're on the same page here...when talking about these batteries and their cells, I know just enough to be dangerous.  You're suggesting that the manufacturer may be using just 3 cells in series (which could theoretically get you into the operating range for 12v with 3.7v cells) versus using 4 cells and a voltage limiter to ensure proper 12v power delivery?  I hadn't even considered that.

As far as comparing specs, I was always of the belief that though amp-hour ratings can be misleading, comparing amp-hours between batteries of the same voltage was acceptable.   In the same breath, I always figured the booster packs got their inflated amp-hour figures due to being given in terms of 5v amp-hours as opposed to 12v amp-hours. 

To be fair, if they really are only using 3 cells in series instead of 4 in the battery I linked, I can see right away how the specs could be misleading.

[Incognito]

DF,

I bought a shorai lithium iron battery 4 years ago.  The 36 model ~ 229.00  Thought I was crazy, but wanted a bullet proof lightweight battery for ice fishing.  Absolutely love it.  Outlasts my 9ah sla by 3 times.  Has enough power to winch my 25' 1970's slickcraft boat onto the trailer.  Started the 8 cyl ford 302 engine in the boat during an emergency.  It also powers my trail camera as an external battery for 3 months out of the year.

Would I buy it again?  Probably not, as stated above, that is worth 10+ sla batteries.  However, at the end of an all day ice fishing trip when I accidentally left my key in the on position of the snowmobile, it also had enough power to start the 600cc polaris in below zero temps.

Inc

Sending you a pm as well.

[Warren_G]

I have quite a lot of 12 volt experience, and I would assume that the flashers would have some input protection or limiting circuitry so that using them while the battery is charging would not harm them. This would mean that any of these Lithium battery booster packs should work, since they can output anywhere from 12-14 volts. I have used my Noco genius booster to power 12 volt devices, and it works just fine. I see that there are many of these battery boost boxes on amazon now, most of which require the purchase of some sort of charger to go with them. The advantage of the Noco is that it charges via USB, so you could have it plugged in and charging in the car on your way to the ice. The disadvantage is that it takes a long time to recharge. If you got a higher current charger such as a 1amp 12-15 volt power supply, the other type would charge up faster. Both of these are sealed and somewhat weatherproof, so you would be wise to rig up an external connection rather than trying to fit them into your flasher case. Here are a couple of links to each kind:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B015TKPT1A?psc=1   - Noco - USB charged

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N2HHU2O?psc=1  - 12-15 volt charged

[ronco]

I don't know anything about these batteries, but contact this guy I'm sure he can help you. He's in Colorado.

http://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=334923.0

[rgfixit]

Just be sure there is circuit protection in your design. Otherwise your idea could go up in smoke.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_304b_making_lithium_ion_safe


I might know a thing or two about batteries.
Rg

[Lukaszu]

Hi,  seems you are mixing up 2 types of lithium batteries. The amazon example u used are Chinese crap batteries........ They are lithium ions set to 11.1v nominal voltage. They charge up to 12.6v but will quickly go to 11.1v and hold that voltage but are sensitive to cold. That's why they call it "12v" battery... That's 12 Chinese volts. Then u started about the SLA replacement lithium batteries. So here is your mix up.. Blue box are lithium ion,,,,  the SLA box replacement are lithium iron or commonly referred to as lifepo4 (12.8v nominal).  Lifepo4 batteries are what u typically see in flashers due to their safe SLA like nature and resistance to low temperature. O and they use f2 connectors. If your looking for a good used SLA replacement let me know via message and I'll get u a great deal.

[Lukaszu]

I started to put this in the electronics section but felt it was a bit more "general" than that - mods, please move if I'm mistaken in my assessment.

I've been looking around at some options for using lithium instead of the standard SLA batteries we so often use.  My main goal is to both get more usable amp hours out of a battery and to cut down on weight.  I know that temperature control is important in this regard and am ready to deal with that.   

I've seen the lithium batteries that come in the same "case" with the same terminals as our standard SLA "flasher batteries" for $100 and up (maybe as low as $90 on sale), and have come really close to pulling the trigger on a couple occasions.  Unless I'm mistaken, these are usually marketed as 12v 9 ah or 10 ah batteries that will outlast a SLA of similar ratings because of the discharge profile of lithiums - essentially that you get full voltage until it dies while a SLA will drop voltage too low for usage before being dead.  They also tend to weigh significantly less and can handle significantly more charging cycles during their lifetime.

I've come across some other lithium battery packs that don't come in the same convenient "case" that we use and that fits into our flasher cases so well, but that are still 12v and seem to offer significantly higher ah ratings.  This is one example on Amazon - 12v 20,000 mAh for $60.  I'm not necessarily buying this exact one - for starters it appears to be shipping from China.  But when considering batteries like this, assuming I'm reading it right and the specs are accurate, this would be 12v and 20 ah, or more than twice the rated ah of a 1290 SLA battery.  Is that right?

My follow up question for those who are much more knowledgeable about batteries than I am: is there any reason aside from the inconvenient form/size for why I should not buy something like what I've linked, cut off the connectors, and use it as a power source to power my flasher, lights, etc. via alligator clips or similar? 

I have a charger that is designed for charging lithium batteries that I would be able to use in this situation, so removing the connectors the supplied charger uses wouldn't be an issue.

(I realize I could also outfit my lights and other power-hungry items with the pole connectors this battery comes with to avoid cutting wires, I'm more asking about the feasibility of using a battery pack like this on the ice).

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer!!

      o and hold on Drew!  I just caught that last part... Your charger... If u connect a lithium ion charger to lifepo4 battery or vise versa with wrong charge voltage then bad things will happen.... Think broke battery, explosion, runaway thermo, galaxy s7, Flaming skateboards etc...