Off topic hunting point system

[POk3s]

poks3,

Wyoming currently allows crossbows during archery. Wyoming also allows crossbows, regular archery gear, muzzleloader, hangun, shotgun, and centerfire rifles to be used in the general season. No reason to create weapon specific pools of tags, other than to increase drawing odds for special interest groups.

Yes I know that. I'm just saying let's not DISallow those weapons as a state. Let's keep everybody hunting.

Remember guys, we're all passionate outdoorsman that live and hunt this great state. Let's not beat up on each other too hard

[BuzzH]

Icetroll,

For starters, I'm not one to leave people guessing where I stand on hunting and fishing related issues. Anyone that knows me at all, will definately say thats a true statement.

Secondly, I'll remind you that I've been bowhunting since 1985, so its not that I have a bone to pick with archery hunters. I do quite a bit of archery hunting every year.

You said, "My only question would be this. You accuse BOW of using a tool (the legislature) to "End run" the wishes of hunters yet many hunters are for those changes. If its hunters trying to make the changes how is it an end run?

It is an end-run and BOW knew it prior to introducing the bill. I have an email from Senator Larry Hicks, from Baggs, stating that the bill was brought to him by BOW. The reason that BOW wanted the bill introduced was to force the G&F into addressing their concerns about increasing type-9 tags. Its also no secret that BOW has been pressing the G&F for more and more and more opportunity for archery, while systematically not giving a second thought to how that may impact rifle hunters. I believe that the rifle hunters have not only been very gracious, but supportive of archery hunting opportunities. When I first moved to Wyoming 12 years ago, there was not a 45 day archery pronghorn season, it was also not legal to harvest bison with archery gear either.

If you really want to go down the road of "what the hunters want"...then BOW better start opening their ears and eyes to the facts. The fact is, that 74% of the people that archery hunt are in favor of the type-1 permits allowing hunters to hunt with BOTH archery and  rifle. In other words, they arent in favor of type-9 tags. What BOW is doing is catering to a select group of hard-core archery hunters that really arent interested in anything other than increasing their drawing odds, and opportunities to draw premium units each year. I can provide proof of this from other boards where its frankly stated by members of BOW. Its not about the health of the herd, its not about crowding issues, it not about recruiting hunters, its simply about a select group wanting a block of tags set aside to increase their draw odds...period. It just so happens, that the bill in question would have taken 10% of ALL type-1 tags, for all species and set them aside for archery only.

Would you care to explain what is fair about that, while keeping in mind that several thousand WY residents have acquired points for sheep and moose for 18 years now? It would have created a system where archery hunters could draw sheep and moose tags with much fewer points and extended the waiting times for hundreds of hunters who either want to hunt with both, or only hunt with a rifle.

Finally, the BOW made a huge mistake with this bill, as they forced a hand that didnt need to be played. Their bluff was called before the last card was dealt. The reason being that the WYG&F already had the authority to create type-9 tags. The wording in their bill, replaced the word stating the WYG&F "may" establish type-9 seasons, to "shall" establish type-9 seasons.

Thats a clear end-run of existing law, and BOW should have continued to work with the WYG&F rather than trying to beat the WYG&F over the head via the Legislature.

Between this bill and the PP bill, its very likely those that asked Senator Hicks to carry this legislation have cost him the next election. I hope it was "worth" it to all involved.

I've never been a fan of letting my self-interest destroy the sport, a career, or a working relationship all over a few more tags.

Call what it is Buzz. Just say you dont like it and call a spade a spade.

I dont like it when groups get tunnel vision and keep the blinders on...only worried about THEIR agenda and not keeping the big picture in mind.

I'll paraphrase what I said in the Committee hearing, and that is if we all want more opportunity, we have to put more wildlife on the mountain. To accomplish that its going to take cooperation between all hunting groups, more research, and more extensive/intensive management.  In turn, its going to take a lot of money. Management is not cheap...and right now the WYG&F is really in the chit budget wise. We're all demanding more and more  and better and better management from the G&F and we arent funding them.

IMO, when you have robust and healthy herds of wildlife, many of these "issues" of fighting each other over what we currently have, all go away.

More access and more wildlife will only bear one thing...and thats more fruit for all.

The self-serving by all these groups has got to stop...enough is enough.

[WYOBRUM]

BuzzH

[WYOBRUM]

BuzzH you are exactly correct about the motives of BOW they want better draw odds for limited quota areas for archers.They have been pushing the Game and Fish for years on this issue.Interesting though the outfitters of north western Wyoming got the Game and Fish to issue type 9 licences in general elk areas west of Cody all so they could run more nonresident hunters consequently nonresidents harvest more bull elk in the general hunt areas west of Cody than the residents both rifle and archery.Just another special interest group that has to stop.

[IceTroll]

Okay Buzz I concede. I am not intimately familiar with BOW so I cant really speak to their full agenda. My point, and obviously I didnt get it across very well, was simply that some hunters differ in their opinion. I am in favor of archery only tags. Are my motives slightly selfish. Perhaps they are. I wont disagree with you that G&F needs to prioritize the health of the herds but their main focus, for now needs to be the declining Deer numbers. Not saying there arent some elk herds that could use some help, like some areas in the north west, but a great number of Wyoming Elk herds have all time high populations. The Laramie Range and Snowy Range are probably two good examples. I too want whats best for Wyoming, the Hunting heritage and the future of our wildlife. That being said, I would also like to have a better chance of drawing desirable tags before I am too old to get it done. Obviously I dont know your background and I am sure you have your reasons for feeling the way you do. Maybe you are in a position to better understand everything that is going on and some of us dont have all the information. That could be part of it as well. It is sometimes hard to wade through what is fact and what is opinion especially during these sometimes heated debates especially when our motives and our opinions do differ. Not even saying my mind cant be changed. Just saying that sometimes people do form opinions without knowing everything they truly need to know simply because life gets in the way. Not everyone has the time or the energy to get as involved as you obviously are. Not saying thats right but it is fact. If I offended you I apologize and I will try to keep an open mind and educate myself a little better.

[sleeslayer]

No point in talking about this anymore.  SF85 got shot down today on third reading.  So all of you not in favor of a points system don't have to worry about it until it's introduced again in the future.

[BuzzH]

sleeslayer,

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. The p.point issue isnt going to go away. There will be working groups formed in the interim to focus on that very issue. All that was accomplished was to stop the current bad bill. Its far from "over".

I encourage all that want a say in the upcoming meetings on this issue to get involved if you want a voice in whether or not you want a point system...and if you do, what that point system should look like. Pre-decisional involvement is KEY, or you're left whining after a bill passes that you dont like.

Icetroll,

I've been involved with wildlife issues for a very long time, a guy tends to develop some alligator skin along the way. You said nothing offensive, you stated your opinions in a very clear, civil,  and concise way.  Theres no way your post could be taken as offensive, so no reason to apologize to me or anyone else. I also happen to agree with 90% of your last post.

The real challenges we face with wildlife/hunting/fishing have no easy solutions...debates need to happen, and ideas need to be exchanged in forums like this, at coffee shops, and with our hunting friends/families.

I also agree that our focus needs to be on the hunting heritage, mule deer, and I'll add finding a way to fund the WYG&F so we arent cutting programs we all enjoy.

[Sheridanfisher]

Just to clear up some of what I said, I did not mean in any way that I would want to limit the use of any weapon for hunting. I made the comment about crossbows and muzzle loaders as an avid bow hunter who does believe that having a crossbow loaded and cocked walking around the woods elk hunting gives you a huge advantage.  Not the speed or distance they can shoot and I would put my bow up against most in terms of how far I could kill an elk at. But not having to draw a bow in the heat of the moment with an elk at 20 yards is a big advantage but so is just being able to hunt in September compared to October so maybe my argument is pointless.  I can live with the fact that they are allowed and some people use them and like them. I have just ran into so many people who go buy a cross bow with a scope on it a month before the season because they see bow hunters on tv and it looks fun (which it is  )  and think its ethical to go try and shoot an elk like that.  There are probably just as many people who do that with a rife too so it more of an issue of people not having the right hunting ethics and I happen to see it more in the bow arena as that is where I spend most of my time. 


BuzzH pretty much hit the nail on the head in terms of how the more specialty tags there are the less type 1 tags there will be for the general public to be able to draw.  The total number of tags that there will be in an area is set and then the specialty tags would be subtracted from that number and put into their seasons. It would not work as there are 100 type 1 tags in an area and they create a muzzle loader season and add 50 tags to the area. They would subtract those 50 tags from the type 1 Tags.  That is just not a good option.


I like the type 9 tags because I am a bow hunter but I would much rather see it be all type 1 tags with the option to hunt in September with archery equipment if you want to then see it switch to a bunch of short season like Colorado. 



In terms of the B.O.W's agenda, I am a member of B.O.W. but mostly as a social group of like minded people not so much into exactly what the group is doing at the state level. I will keep these comments in mind during this springs meetings and see what I can find out about why we are pushing for certain changes and see if I can suggest better routs of making changes if they are needed. While members of this group we are "extreme" in our passion for bow hunter we are all hunters/outdoors men first and have to keep the betterment of overall hunting and herds health in the front of our minds.


Good debate again and its people talking among each other like this that gets the information out there and helps keep us all educated on what is happening in our state.

[benwyo]

No point in talking about this anymore.  SF85 got shot down today on third reading.  So all of you not in favor of a points system don't have to worry about it until it's introduced again in the future.

I second this motion.... It is done for now..... It may not be over but this has been going on for years and has never passed....... Amen..... Just have to wait until next year to see.....

[Traxion]

Some clarification on the SD end, you may or may not care.  We do pay $5 to apply for elk, which is nonrefundable.  We don't have to send in the whole amount.  For deer, antelope, etc. there is no charge.  If you don't draw, you get a point, and it costs you nothing. 

[mobilerat]

There is a simple solution to this issue which would be the most simple and fair. Any area that has years worth of applicants should be a once in a lifetime area. It is only fair that no one should draw a unit twice until all who would like to hunt there get to go once. May it could be done in steps some units you need to wait five years some ten some lifetime before being able to reapply . There may be a downside to this but I dont see it. I would be happy to rethink this if someone can point it out to me.