propane refills

[numbtoes]

I saw this subject posted a while ago but didn't pay enough attention at the time. I'm going through enough small propane tanks each week that it's costing me some real money. Does anyone use an adaptor that allows you to refill small 16.4 oz tanks  from a large 20lb tank? Does it work safely and well for you and any idea where to get one one?  Thanks.

[toguebuster]

cabela's ,been thinking the same thing !!!! but do have a smaal 4 lb cylider works great and not that bulky and small heaters accept it with adapter hose!!!!

[tommy-n]

been doing it for years. The 20lb tank needs to be room temp. and the 16 ounce tanks need to be empty and put in the freezer. Take the cold tank and screw to the adapter to the 20lb tank, turn the 20lb upside down and open the valve all the way for about minute and a half,turn the valve off on the 20lb tank flip back up right and unscrew. I can do 16-18 tanks for about $9.50. Always use caution, never around sparks,open flames ect.

[MILLERMANKT]

I also have been doing this for years. I can refill 17 per a 20# tank. You will get the ocasional leaker. I mark them with a sharpy marker and dispose of them when empty. Freeze the small tanks before filling and use commen sense.

[reelcharacter]

I also have been doing this for years. I can refill 17 per a 20# tank. You will get the ocasional leaker. I mark them with a sharpy marker and dispose of them when empty. Freeze the small tanks before filling and use commen sense.

For the novice who has seen the refilling devices, but has not used one. What does freezing the tank do?

Thanks,
-Reelcharacter

[tommy-n]

If you don;t freeze the tank you can only get it about half full.

[jrpick]

I have had decent success over the past two years refilling the small tanks.  I ordered the adapter from Cabelas for around 17 bucks.  As a science teacher, my sense is that freezing the tanks reduces the temperature inside the tank which in turn decreases the pressure inside the small tank causing a greater difference in pressure between 20 lb and 1 lb tanks and causing more product to be forced from big to little tank.  We have all seen what happens when we take a milk jug out of the fridge and set it on the table.  The air inside expands and the jug bloats or if there is a slight gap at the cap, there will be air bubbles forming. 

I have had the occasional leaker as well.  This is a concern so I do the following.  First, I listen and if I hear escaping propane, I slap up the tank a bit.  If it is still hissing, I take a small nail and insert it until the valve stem inside goes down and comes back hopefully better seated this time.  If it is still hissing, I immediately put in on my heater or lantern.  I will also leave the refilled tanks sit outside for awhile and figure if they haven't emptied in a couple days that they are probably OK.  Good luck, be safe.

[Chainsaw]

    Propane tanks are made to deliver liquid or vapor, depending on use requirements. You want the LIQUID propane to transfer into the empty cylinder, and to do that you have to present the liquid to the valve of the FILLING tank to the cylinder being filled, thus the reason for turning the filling tank upside down during the filling.
   Get on line with Harbor Freight mailorder. They have THE adaptor to do the job for $15., with instructions. They work very well except that....., the latest requirements for 20lb (Patio-Barbeque) tanks is they cannot be refilled any more unless they are the 'Safety' tanks that prevent the fuel from coming out as a liquid,(the purpose of turning the tank upside down), and THEY don't work for this purpose anymore.
     You may be able to get around this by doing what I do. I use the 100lb tank. You may still be able to use a liquid take off tank,(the old kind that Walmart and Home Despot WON'T fill anymore), if you get it filled through your local welding supply. I use propane for welding/burning metal and the welding place often fills the tank full, as opposed to the 80% fill you normally get. I pay $55. for a hundred pounds and fill 80 to 90 cylinders, at about $.60 each. Enough to last me, and friends, all season.
     I leave all my empties outdoors on below zero nights, or in the freezer during mild weather. I keep the 100lb tank where it's warm, in my shop with the Mr. Heater thing running on low. In the morning I move the fill operation OUTDOORS, and slip a warm sleeping bag over it to keep it's vapor pressure differential higher than the cylinders.
      With the 100lb tank set up so I can tip it up or down,(I usually leave it down), I screw an empty cylinder onto the adaptor, which has already been put on the big tank and tightened,(Lightly folks, it aint a structural member there...), with a wrench.
     S l  o  w   l    y, open the valve on the big tank for one minute or so, then turn off the tank. Wear cloth gloves, and don't get any onya while you're unscrewing the small tank. I have all of my 'Little tank appliances' handy so that if one continues to leak slightly I screw it onto the heater, lantern or whatever and the leak stops.
     I don't mean to be so long winded here but Liquid propane is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS. One ounce of the liquid expands to 260 ounces of vapor. It won't burn, or even ignite at this point because it's too 'Rich'. It must be mixed with air to burn, at about 14:1 ratio of air to gas. NOW you have; 1oz. liquid = 260 ozs. vapor X 14:1 fuel/air ratio = 4,640(aprox.) ounces by volume,(almost 3.5 gal.) Added to ANY spark source = BIG BOOM 'cause Propane is about equal to 120 Octane. Igniting 3.5 gallons of 120 octane fuel will take down most houses.
      My friend, Billy Z. and the other five memebers of his family were all killed when propane leaked behind the house and 'Dribbled' DOWN into the garage where the heater ignited and killed them all, so be carefull with this stuff. An 'Accident' here could possibly even see you arrested for arson, or even 'Terrorist' activities.
      By the way. You don't have to worry quite as much about striking a spark on the metal propane tanks. They are made of 'Sparkless Steel' to prevent such a thing from happening.
      When you're done filling tanks/cylinders, leave all that stuff OUTDOORS 'till you can't smell the stuff downwind. Oh yeah. You cannot smell the gas itself. What you smell is an 'Indicator' oil substance that is put into the tank so you can smell it if it leaks.
       DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE DANGER OF DOING THIS. THE GAS IS HEAVIER THAN AIR AND CAN STORE ITSELF UNDER YOUR HOUSE OR OTHER STORAGE 'PITS' AND BE IGNITED BY BURNERS ANSWERING A THERMOSTAT CALL.  IF YOU CAN THINK OF ANYTHING I'VE OVERLOOKED PING ME UP AND I'LL TRY TO ANSWER. I USED TO TEACH THIS STUFF. THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS UP ON THE BOARDS GUYS.

[reelcharacter]

Chainsaw,

You may be an IceShanty rookie (for the time be ‘in), but are assuredly an expert in the field of Propane! I think you might even rival my idol, Hank Hill, the king of daytime Propane on Fox . . . 

http://tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?id=1807777636&d=tvi&cf=0

In reading the posts I seemed to recall the unit you described as available at Harbor Freight. Was going to have to go by the store to confirm, (I am fortunate enough to have a new HFstore within 20 minutes from where I live). Can't beat the HF price. HF is a great store with as low as you can go prices. You get what you pay for, so I feel better knowing you use or endorse the HF unit for something as exacting as Propane filling.

Thanks again for the lengthy description. If we wish to do-it-ourself, we should know the potential danger and know what we are doing.

Appreciate the advice,
-Reelcharacter

[Chainsaw]

     Many of the items in the Harbor Freight catalogs vary in price so much that you can question the quality/value ratio. The propane tank adaptors are good enough that the price has not changed in more than ten years. The ol' reliable tried and true products seem to hold their value.
      Some of the stuff they, and others, sell is kind of sketchy. The extreme price fluctuations vs. quality serve to indicate the true value. The LPG adaptor price seems to support this theory.
       At less than a buck a re-fill this device is well worth it, and you won't see any of MY empty cylinders on the ice or in the trash. Re-cycle, re-cycle, motorcycle !!!

      DON'T FORGET THE CAUTIONS THOUGH, THIS IS BAAAAD GAS.

[Tombo]

Great post Chainsaw-words well worth heeding. A contractor friend of mine was burnt when his crew went down into a basement that was being heated with propane heater(so concrete wouldn't freeze) one of the guys had a cigarette.luckily they all lived and burns weren't too severe. That stuff flows like invisble water-keep it along ways away from your house.

[wyogator]

If you have the old 20 LB tanks, you can go to a gas station where they refill propane and tell them you are a welder, and you are using the propane for a torch and that you are exempt from the new safety regulations. This probably won't work at Wal-Mart or Home Depot, but it's worth a try.

[billybono]

wal mart will trade you an old 20# tank(ive brought a couple in i found in the woods hunting) and trade you for a brand new filled rhino tank for 17.99. then you dont have to worry about getting old tanks filled. the new opd valves sure are a good idea because there sure are a lot of idiots at propane filling stations . i think im paying 7 bucks for a fill down the street

                                            billybono

[reelcharacter]

wal mart will trade you an old 20# tank(ive brought a couple in i found in the woods hunting) and trade you for a brand new filled rhino tank for 17.99. then you dont have to worry about getting old tanks filled. the new opd valves sure are a good idea because there sure are a lot of idiots at propane filling stations . i think im paying 7 bucks for a fill down the street

                                            billybono

What size Rhino tank? That sure sounds like the way to go.

-Reelcharacter

[Chainsaw]

wal mart will trade you an old 20# tank(ive brought a couple in i found in the woods hunting) and trade you for a brand new filled rhino tank for 17.99. then you dont have to worry about getting old tanks filled. the new opd valves sure are a good idea because there sure are a lot of idiots at propane filling stations . i think im paying 7 bucks for a fill down the street

                                            billybono

      Actually the Rhino tank and Walmart folks is NOT the way to go. Those are SAFETY tanks and can not be turned over to fill empty cylinders because the "Safety" valve inside will not allow it. As soon as you tip the "Safety" cylinder over to fill they shut off. To fill the cylinders the tank must be turned over for liquid withdrawl or all you get is an empty cylinder. The vapor pressure will be the same but ther'll be no liquid.
       By the way folks, ALL LPG tanks have the same pressure in them due to the temperature/vapor pressure required to keep the gas condensed as a liquid, regardless of their size.
      The only way to go anymore is what Wyogator suggests. Tell 'em you're a welder, silversmith, or craftsman, that needs a tank that can stand upside down for 'Liquid' withdrawl
capabilities, or use the hundred pound tank like I do.
       Even if the temperature differential between the Filling tank and the cylinder is not enough to completely fill the cylinder it's still the cheapest way to go. Think about the number of times you've gone out on the ice with half-full cylinders.
       If the screw thread areas of the cylinder are a little rusty or dirty you should brush them clean with a stiff bristled PLASTIC brush and paper towel. DO NOT USE ANY KIND OF OIL. It does funny things at -40 degrees, like plug stuff up in this honey-like state.

[jrpick]

Wow, thanks for the info. Chainsaw.  There is a difference between being long-winded and non-omitting in needed info.  You were definately the latter.  FOM

[reelcharacter]

Chainsaw,

I did some surfing after my last post and discovered the Wal-Mart Rhino tanks are a proprietary item, that once filled by them, the tanks cannot be taken to another refill location because of the fittings Rhino uses. (Or so I read on one site). Another reason they are not the way to go . . .

Thanks again,
-Reelcharacter

[Chainsaw]

      The Rhino and similar tanks all have a spring loaded valve in them. During their re-fill process a very strong electro magnet 'Pulls' this valve open to allow the liquid gas into the tank. It is NOT worth it to try to subvert this system.
       The next best thing is to go the 100lb tank if you can handle it, or try the old style tank re-fill at the welding supply place.
        Mayhap a viable alternative would br the tanks used on lift trucks. They offer a choice of fuel withdrawl. For vapor, the tank stands upright. For liquid the tank lays down, with the locating pin hole on the tank flange pointing down.
        If some of you enterprising folks out there go the Lift Truck tank route and use make shift fittings and flexible hoses be sure to put a ground strap between the tank and cylinder. High pressure propane hoses have flexible wire cable in them for GROUNDIND the system, not just for strength. Do not use un-grounded hoses for connections unless you use an external ground lead.
        The grounding or not is why cars ignite at the gas tank when filling 'em, as static electrical sparks WILL ignite fuel in the open.   

[reelcharacter]

At $2.00 a tank (16 oz I think) at Gander Mt. today, the hassle of re-filling is starting to look more and more worth it.

-Reelcharacter

[tommy-n]

My 20lbtank is only two years old and it works fine, I'm prteey sure it has the newer valve

[jrpick]

The cost is less of a factor to me than the pile of disposable tanks that builds through the winter.  I will say that I have considered going to a 4 or 5 pound tank.  I don't care to lug the twenty pounder around especially if getting into places where the crowd isn't.  Tight lines!  FOM

[JigAwhopper]

I don't go through enough 1 lb tanks to justyfy all that hassle with refilling and possible leaks,  etc.  I think I went through 10 of them so far this year.  But I would buy two 5 lb tanks instead if I was using a lot and be safe because they're desinged to be refilled.  Then again,  I don't have an atv to lug all that weight around. J.