Melting Snow Fields

[GasBlaster]

All this greenhouse gas global warming garbage my be just what the doctor ordered with a solar downturn on the way .

[Anomaly]

All this greenhouse gas global warming garbage my be just what the doctor ordered with a solar downturn on the way .

HAHA! Well the global warming is now a given, solar effects are out of our control. It’s not just a little colder if 60% solar energy is lost. It’s ice age. I suppose our bodies will thaw or be eaten eventually.  If there is not a solar event, one way or another, bail the boat! Every little bit (of consciousness) is good for ya! GB, look t stuff you don’t like to. Don’t be afraid.

[cap]

No, I didn’t read it yet.

Then I guess you refuse to learn factual information concerning historical GOM water temperatures. You'd rather rant political pseudo scientific drivel.

cap, I gotta go with the guys that study this stuff, which is NOT you

Wrong...... 35 years worth....

...over 50 peer reviewed publications and 1000's of citations....  a quick perusal of Researchgate will confirm...  including co-authorship on paper linked

Aloha

[Anomaly]

Then I guess you refuse to learn factual information concerning historical GOM water temperatures. You'd rather rant political pseudo scientific drivel.

Wrong...... 35 years worth....

...over 50 peer reviewed publications and 1000's of citations....  a quick perusal of Researchgate will confirm...  including co-authorship on paper linked

Aloha

Well, First, I apologize I did not know of your research. I didn’t and still don’t know you actual name. I figured I may have been wrong in my writing and that you would better inform me, Thanks. So, what’s your name?

Second, I have now read the piece. It discusses water temps over the past 1000 years, the PAST 1000 years. It is a very good study! The whole point, though, of the issue I am brining up is the rapidity of current change, which is documented and ongoing, more quickly than past events. One article quote and link below. Just to repeat what I said above, there were green turtles and black sea bass off Mt Desert Rock and in Frenchman and Blue Hill Bay, just due to one short gulf stream change. A more prolonged event would likely have greater consequence. If the Gulf  Stream slows, there will certainly be consequence.

Third; Yes the Maunder Minimum is/was real. So might be the predicted sun slow down to begin around 2030. If that does happen, yes current global warming tends will be negated. It will also significantly alter human population on the planet, as well as all other species. It would be quite a planetary reset, far beyond the Maunder Minimum effect. One thing, after the thaw and rot there will be plenty of human infrastructure for those left and renewed floral and faunal growth to repopulate. Obviously, things will take time and maybe there will be a more informed wisdom going forward.”

In the case of the Maunder Minimum and the possible 2030 event, the current planet wide warming effects, including Greenland glacial melt and Arctic  Sea melt allowing ship passage (for the first time in human knowledge), loss of overall ice mass in Antartica and recently recorded above normal planetary sea temps are separate issues. WE can change habits, like I said, as we did with the Clean Air Act, The Clean Water Act and eliminated most fluorocarbons. I remember lakes that did not freeze except for a colored slush (Onondoga Lake, Syracuse, NY is the one I saw), raw sewage dumped onto rivers complete with anything else individuals and businesses dumped into the drain (we used to fish a river where tp wold get stuck on our lines if we fished too close to “the pipe” while we watched carp swimming mouth open into the effluent - nice), and smog akin to what China has now in their industrial zones.

So, cap, should we all sit on our hands waiting for possible some solar event for a “correction” or should we do what we are able to as so-called intelligent beings.  I’m for being proactive. If the sun cools or a meteor hits us, w can’t do much about that, other than bunkers for the chosen few. We can act to prevent more damage than we already have coming from anthropogenic planet wide maladies.

Some more pseudo scientific drivel for ya. 

""A pronounced warming event occurred on the Northeast Shelf this spring, and this will have a profound impact throughout the ecosystem," said Kevin Friedland, a scientist in the NEFSC's Ecosystem Assessment Program, who said the warmer waters will have impacts on marine life, from plankton to whales.  "Changes in ocean temperatures and the timing of the spring plankton bloom could affect the biological clocks of many marine species, which spawn at specific times of the year based on environmental cues like water temperature."

Atlantic cod has already been impacted, as it moves northeasterly in response to the warming waters.

The NEFSC recorded temperatures 11°F above historical average at the surface and more than 9°F above average at the bottom in the Delaware and Chesapeake Bays, while further north 3.6°F warmer than average temperatures were recorded for the bottom waters in the western Gulf of Maine.”  http://www.commondreams.org/news/2012/09/19/noaa-record-high-ocean-temperatures-north-atlantic?nocache=1

AND: http://research.noaa.gov/News/NewsArchive/LatestNews/TabId/684/ArtMID/1768/ArticleID/11410/Warming-waters-a-major-factor-in-Gulf-of-Maine-cod-collapse.aspx

"Those conclusions square with the understanding of regional fisheries managers. “The current Gulf of Maine cod assessment acknowledges that natural mortality may well have increased in recent years as suggested by this paper,” said Bill Karp, director of the NOAA Fisheries Northeast Fisheries Science Center.  “We are devoting significant resources to linking climate models and fish population models to better understand current status and better estimate what the stock will look like in the future—both of which are important to setting quotas that promote sustainable fishing,” he said.

The Gulf of Maine sea surface temperature has been warming steadily over the last 35 years. In the most recent decade, the warming trend (0.23 deg C /year) was faster than 99 percent of of the global ocean.
According to the new study, recovery of Gulf of Maine cod depends on both sound fishery management and on future temperatures. Cod are a cold water species, and the Gulf of Maine is near the edge of their geographic range. As the ocean warms, the capacity of the Gulf of Maine to support cod will decline, leading to a smaller population and a smaller fishery.
This study was funded by the Lenfest Ocean Program and the National Science Foundation.

Authors of “Slow Adaptation in the Face of Rapid Warming Leads to Collapse of the Gulf of Maine Cod Fishery,” are Andrew Pershing (Gulf of Maine Research Institute (GMRI), Michael Alexander (NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory (ESRL) Physical Sciences Division), Christina Hernandez (GMRI), Lisa Kerr (GMRI), Arnault LeBris (GMRI), Katherine Mills (GMRI), Janet Nye (Stony Brook University), Nicholas Record (Bigelow Laboratory for Ocean Sciences), Hillary Scannell (GMRI and University of Maine), James Scott (Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences and NOAA ESRL Physical Sciences Division), Graham Sherwood (GMRI), and Andrew Thomas (University of Maine)."

cap, it would be great fun for me, and generally enlightening one way or the other, to see you in discussion with these scientists. 

""There's this big change happening in the Gulf of Maine in general, for whales and turtles and dolphins and gulls and fish and lobsters and just everything," says Kathleen Hunt, a research scientist at the New England Aquarium in Boston who studies whales and sea turtles. "Every population I know of is changing its distribution. It's either appearing where it didn't used to be or it's disappearing from where it did used to be, or it's starving, or it's getting a new disease.”  http://e360.yale.edu/feature/fast-warming_gulf_of_maineoffers_hint_of_future_for_oceans/2827/

Pekný deň prajem!

[cap]

The whole point, though, of the issue I am brining up is the rapidity of current change, which is documented and ongoing, more quickly than past events.

And this sort of talk is where your politically motivated clap trap is TOTALLY WRONG!

Abrupt climate change is NOT a recent phenomenon, it is not happening faster than past events!  We have studied considerable numbers of historical abrupt climate changes that occur on decadal time scales.

I told you this last summer concerning the Younger Dryas climate event which is an example of only one of these abrupt climate events. 

We think this event was caused by a freshening in the north atlantic due to a melting of the North American ice cap, this in turn initiates a slowing of the oceanic conveyor belt and then a return to near glacial conditions after we had already warmed to interglacial conditions for at least a few 1000 years after the LGM (Last Glacial Maximum).  The precise mechanism is unknown but it certainly involves a slowing of the so called "conveyor belt" and associated feedback loops. Cold extremely salty water is dense and this drives the conveyor, but freshwater is less dense and hence does not sink. The conveyor belt is driven by this density gradient, hence it is called thermohaline circulation...and if it gets throttled down, less transport of heat is delivered to high latitudes and you have a COLDER  global climate.....BTW I just had dinner with the guy who first described the conveyor belt last week.

So the scenario for a colder climate and an abrupt climate shift is caused by increased fresh water input into the north atlantic near Greenland, this slows down the transport of heat to northern latitudes (like in Maine!) and a reformation of an ice cap in the northern hemisphere (as in Maine!). 

So ponder if you will,  an ice cap on top Maine just like the one in Greenland that is made in 20 years! That is rapid climate change and that is what happened approx 9,800 years ago.

What is happening in the north atlantic ocean right now with Greenland's glaciers melting?  Doesn't it look like a freshwater lens is forming and doesn't it look like that is slowing down the AMOC and conveyor belt!

I hope a light bulb is going off in your head.

It is likely (in fact just as likely as any supposed runaway warming) that a freshwater lens and a shut down of the AMOC will cause a rapidly cooling climate.... couple that with decreased solar activity and it is even more likely. 

The problem is this, it is not in the interest of alarmist politicians, complicit media outlets, and alarmist showboating scientists to convey this information...it is "politically incorrect"!

Why is that?  I certainly don't know...it doesn't make sense to me!

FWIW    There are 100's of scientific articles written about rapid climate shifts which have occurred all through earth's history...there are whole books written about them.... including below...

http://www.nap.edu/catalog/10136/abrupt-climate-change-inevitable-surprises

Atlantic cod has already been impacted, as it moves northeasterly in response to the warming waters.

Bull!

The Gulf of Maine sea surface temperature has been warming steadily over the last 35 years.

I agree...But cod were impacted long before RECENT WARMING of SEA SURFACE temperatures!  I already told you this. Do you have ear plugs in your ears?

There has already been a meeting of scientists who desire to refute some of what was written in that article, and yes I know the authors...it certainly will not be in the main stream press if anything proceeds.  Unfortunately there are politics involved...

As I said previously...politics and real science do not mix well......

[Anomaly]

So the scenario for a colder climate and an abrupt climate shift is caused by increased fresh water input into the north atlantic near Greenland, this slows down the transport of heat to northern latitudes (like in Maine!) and a reformation of an ice cap in the norther hemisphere (like in Maine!). 

So ponder if you will,  an ice cap on top Maine just like the one in Greenland that is made in 20 years! That is rapid climate change and that is what happened approx 9,800 years ago.

What is happening in the north atlantic ocean right now with Greenland's glaciers melting?  Doesn't it look like a freshwater lens is forming and doesn't it look like that is slowing down the AMOC and conveyor belt!

I mentioned all these things above, well not the last real ice age, along with a graphic. AI am aware of that happening and the one now.

I hope a light bulb is going off in your head.

More likely one of the lights in your attic is blown  . We seem to be in agreement regarding the below and the apparent current shutdown of the AMOC

It is likely (just as likely as supposed runaway warming) that a freshwater lens and a shut down of the AMOC will cause a rapidly cooling climate.... couple that with decreased solar activity and it is even more likely. 

So, yeah, ice melt can cause cooler climate. and you seem to agree the ice is melting. This time the melt looks to be anthropogenic in origin. We ar enot in disagreement about the ice melt. As I said I discussed it above.

The problem is this, it is not in the interest of alarmist politicians, complicit media outlets, and alarmist showboating scientists to convey this information...it is "politically incorrect"!

Why is that?  I certainly don't know...it doesn't make sense to me!

The show boat with the thin single hull heading toward the ice field has a right wing flag.  It saws FOX on the bow.

FWIW    There are 100's of scientific articles written about rapid climate shifts which have occurred all through earth's history...there are whole books written about them.... including below...

http://www.nap.edu/catalog/10136/abrupt-climate-change-inevitable-surprises

I will take a look at these. I bet most has a causal element/event of some sort. The causal event now began with the Industrial Revolution hand has accellerating in catalyzing our current situation which, in part may be resulting in the AMOC apparent slowing. Yes Gloal warming could be contributing to areas of cooling on the planet, even toward ice age. 

"Atlantic cod has already been impacted, as it moves northeasterly in response to the warming waters."
Bull! HAHA

"The Gulf of Maine sea surface temperature has been warming steadily over the last 35 years.”

I agree...But cod were impacted long before RECENT WARMING!  I already told you this do you have ear plugs in your ears?

As I have stated before, we caught em. When I moved here in ’83 cod were still plentiful all the way to NewFoundland and beyond. 30 - 50 boats landing full hold in Bar Harbor on a daily and weekly basic. Can you say "anthropogenic crash” ? Sure you can. Do you disagree we are at the edge of the cod and lobster range or that lobster stocks have virtually disappeared south of NE? Another issue slowing cod recovery has or was thought to be species filling their niche and consuming the roe and young. I haven’t heard much about that lately, but dogfish have been fished pretty hard now too. 

There has already been a meeting of scientists who desire to refute some of what was written in that article...it will not be in the main stream press if it proceeds.

Details? Who was in attendance? Conclusions thus far? New upcoming paper? If it  doesn’t go forward it would seem they themselves couldn’t reach consensus or have not found enough flaw material to dispute and proceed.

Always a pleasure!

Pekný deň prajem!

[Anomaly]

cap, maybe, if we could go back in time, we could sit in the bar on the Titanic and you could tell me about her unsinkableness and I could wax poetic how much more impregnable she would be if she had a double hull. And then we both drown in freezing water. I could say  told you so.   

[Snopro]

cap, maybe, if we could go back in time, we could sit in the bar on the Titanic and you could tell me about her unsinkableness and I could wax poetic how much more impregnable she would be if she had a double hull. And then we both drown in freezing water. I could say  told you so.   

I think we have more pressing issues then global warming to worry/bicker about! The terror that has been brought down against paris and what maybe coming up is far worse then a melting iceburg!

[GasBlaster]

All the ice breaking off the glaciers and into the ocean should cool it down. I know when I put ice on my drink it cools it down

[Anomaly]

I think we have more pressing issues then global warming to worry/bicker about! The terror that has been brought down against paris and what maybe coming up is far worse then a melting iceburg!

True stuff. We might end up fighting over whom will be left. It sure would appear a sizable escalation is not far off.

[Anomaly]

I think we have more pressing issues then global warming to worry/bicker about! The terror that has been brought down against paris and what maybe coming up is far worse then a melting iceburg!

Saddam may well have been right saying Bush unleashed the “mother of all battles”.

I’m done with this post. Be well.

[GasBlaster]

http://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

[GasBlaster]

Now I am done here.

.   Ya sure OK

[Shrinkage]

I'll tell you what's warming up...my arse for the PATS game...wooooo! I forgot how much I miss Sanchez, good games. GO PATS

[Shrinkage]

The ice in my Bloody is melting faster than normal too.  Wooooh!!! GO PATS!!!!

[GasBlaster]

Oh man Edelman !!!   Let's hope he's OK !!!!

[Shrinkage]

Congrats New England our Superbowl

[cbass]

Beating the Giants in the regular season is fun, but do it when it counts.

[cap]

http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html

The sidebar has some interesting takes on various and sundry "players". In particular "real climate.org" which purports to be definitive, "objective" and non biased...yeah right.....

All the so called "consensus arguments" are bull since in science there is never consensus...and nothing is ever a "done deal"...it is a continuous dynamic and anastomosing process.

[Anomaly]

All the so called "consensus arguments" are bull since in science there is never consensus...and nothing is ever a "done deal"...it is a continuous dynamic and anastomosing process.

Yep, cap is correct and his internal pyshoid theories are subject to the same principle he describes to himself within his own internal consensus as are mine and yours. Some take it as opportunity. Others, not so much.

Gravity remains a theory subject to much refinement. Relativity is a theory. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle is a Theory. These theories represent our best understanding as humans and in science. They are the tools in consensus we all use as the best representations we can understand at this point.

This is the same for the current climate consensus. As in gravity, we stand on the ground. If we jump we come back down. If a bullet leaves a barrel at 1000fps or 10,000fps it still falls at the same rate and will hit the ground at the same time an object of equal size/mass/weight dropped from your hand exactly at the same time as the bullet left the barrel. Climate science is the same. In need of better understanding, our climate scientists are striving to better understand the theory, NOT the reality of what they observe.  Now the current state of climate consensus has left behind if and moved to when, where and how much.

 

I know cap will get the last word. Stand bye!

[cap]

All that anyone needs to know why most objective climate scientists, rather than those motivated by their own political persuasions, do not believe that disastrous anthropogenic global warming is an accepted premise and a so called "done deal" scientifically can be explained very simply in the following statement.

Within error bounds, Average Global Temperature has not increased since 1995 and has declined since 2002, despite an increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration of 8% since 1995.

We observe that atmospheric CO2 concentrations goes up, primarily because of the industrialization of China and India, yet the previous rising temperature trend stalls and remains constant or goes down slightly. CO2 is supposedly driving the climate bus...but it does not compute.

All the rest is just blah,blah,blah....

Here is all the historical temperature data from a realist's viewpoint:


And here it is from a hand wringing politically motivated anthropogenic global warming alarmist's viewpoint:

[cap]

I suppose shortly I will be accused of being a holocaust denier or someone who doesn't believe in evolution....but facts is facts...and facts is what scientists debate....

the rest is political mumbo jumbo....or as I like to say ...blah, blah, blah...

Aloha

[Anomaly]

I suppose shortly I will be accused of being a holocaust denier or someone who doesn't believe in evolution....but facts is facts...and facts is what scientists debate....

the rest is political mumbo jumbo....or as I like to say ...blah, blah, blah...

Aloha

cap: “....nothing is ever a "done deal"...it is a continuous dynamic and anastomosing process.”  then: "
the rest is political mumbo jumbo....or as I like to say ...blah, blah, blah...” Done deal (!), N’est pas? Self fulfilling personal consensus? Done Deal? Bien Sur!

"When the team applied their subsampling technique to the temperature data, they found that the rate of increase of global surface temperature did not stall or slow down from 1998 to 2013 in a statistically significant manner. In fact, the rate of change in global surface temperature was not statistically distinguishable between the recent period and other periods earlier in the historical data.”
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2015/september/global-warming-hiatus-091715.html

"The global warming hiatus—a decade-plus slowdown in warming—could be chalked up to some buoys, a few extra years of data and a couple buckets of seawater.”

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-pause-in-global-warming/

I have asked this topic be locked after caps next response. 

[cap]

Already talked about this one before ...

from your link    "Of course this discussion is all centered around changes in hundredths of degrees"

precisely  and when the error associated with measurement is considered the warming or the cooling or whatever you want to call it disappears...

Anyone who is true to his school must consider the std dev of the measurement.

we already disproved the conflated warmest year on record was only warmer by 0.018 degrees....this is how warmists snow the general public.. if you can't rely on data and your own brilliance you resort to baffling them with Bullcrap.

The error on measuring the temperature of the planet is greater than this...so it is hidden in the noise...the increase in CO2 is real...the temperature trend is indistinguishable. 

BTW...Gavin Schmidt?  he's one of the most politically driven of the warmists...he is associated with the environmentalist shill site  real climate.org directly connected to the eco-activist group, Environmental Media Services and Al Gore but they don't want you to know that.

I don't care if the thread is locked or not....I'll debate as long as people want to be led down the wrong garden path...

There clearly is a connection between politics and this issue.....that is the problem with it..

Also the snow fields are ephemeral...and the fact they are melting is not the end of the world neither is the fact that Greenlands glaciers are melting.

[GasBlaster]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2015/05/19/updated-nasa-data-polar-ice-not-receding-after-all/

[Anomaly]

I don't care if the thread is locked or not....I'll debate as long as people want to be led down the wrong garden path...youmake a great leader 

There clearly is a connection between politics and this issue.....( and entrenched fossil fuel industry money  )  .....that is the problem with it..

Just wanted to get you the last word, cappy. Go ahead, over. 

[ice cracker]

I haven't read the entire thread yet but how does it make sense that acid rain is effecting us now and not back 30-100 years ago (don't really know exact time frame) when we had way more factories pumping unregulated pollution into the atmosphere. So now after years of relatively low American manufacturing, its suddenly a problem? Doesn't make sense.