Additives for gas

[Purple Floyd]

I am curious to hear what additives you use in your gas and why? What ingredients do you look for in these products and what is the benefit that they provide?

I have to admit that other than the standard 2 cycle oil I don't add anything to the gas in my small engines and have never had issues. My practice if I know i am not going to use something for an extended period is to either empty the tank if it is close to empty or to fill the tank completely,which is the most common practice I use.

I am always open to learning new ideas as long as they are sound and would like to hear the common practices of others.

[fish4kitty]

I've been using seafoam in my car,truck,chainsaw,ice auger,boat you name it. I use it mainly due to ethinol breakdown. When I store my stuff for long periods I have never had a problem with moisture. Start right up and run it like it was never stored. Don't know what's in it but it works for me.

[MEMAGGIENCOMET]

I use seafoam in premium gas with amsoil sabre.  I have had great luck with this. If you are running regular gas i would re comend star tron gas ad dative.  I store all my equipment with  a full tank of gas and at art it once a month to re lube all the carb parts.

[Hesperus]

The best thing you can do is find ethanol free gasoline (typically 91-93 octane is ethanol free) and simply add a bit of Stabil.  I mix my 2 stroke gas 2 gallons at a time and then transfer down to a 1 gallon can.  Keeping the tank full is the best approach so long as you can do so safely.

Nospill cans have worked wonderfully for me and perform as advertised.  They do an excellent job of sealing against air.

[UP jigstick]

I use seafoam in premium gas with amsoil sabre.  I have had great luck with this. If you are running regular gas i would re comend star tron gas ad dative.  I store all my equipment with  a full tank of gas and at art it once a month to re lube all the carb parts.

Pretty much X 2 here. I have never drained/ fogged/whatever to my small engines. I have always started and run them on a regular basis though. Sure standing in the driveway running an ice auger in July will elicit some stares but it has worked with my power equipment for years.

edit. I have added Star Tron to the gas/saber mix just for good measure, eh.

[Purple Floyd]

What do you find to be the added benefits of SeaFoam in the gas? To me it seems like it might be a bit of voo doo science. All it contains is Mineral Spirits, Naptha and Isopropyl Alcohol.

All of these ingredients are available at the local paint store for much less money and I can't see how running them in the engine can add any value. I do see how they could be beneficial to use maybe once a year to clean the gums and varnishes out of the system but it seems to me they would reduce the viscosity and effectiveness of the oil in a 2 cylinder if used regularly and add no benefit.

Also, with the IPA you are essentially adding alcohol back into the system which is what so many are trying to avoid. The IPA will soak up moisture just like Ethanol and once it is saturated it will give you the same results. The difference being one carbon atom and one being derived from plants while the other is processed from Acetone.

Like some of the users above it seems to me the best way to prevent your gas, whether it contains ethanol or isopropanol, is to keep the tank full so that there is no chance for it to absorb atmospheric moisture,which is really the most likely cause of water problems in gas.

Has anyone made their own sea foam mix by adding 55% mineral spirits, 30% Naptha and 15% isopropyl alcohol? (BTW, you would need to buy anhydrous isopropanol)

[Hesperus]

What do you find to be the added benefits of SeaFoam in the gas? To me it seems like it might be a bit of voo doo science. All it contains is Mineral Spirits, Naptha and Isopropyl Alcohol.

I think you are pretty close to the truth with your statement.  That said, I do use it in the gas in my boat (Lund w/115 Merc 4 stroke) as it does seem to help keep things clean and happy.

Stabil though is the key IMHO to long lasting gas.  It defintely smells different (stinks) when burned, but I can put up with that.   

[xjma]

try to start with ethanol free gas and the additives are less important.  Now a days if you're using ethanol gas you need to first treat to deal with the ethanol, then worry about keeping it fresh after that.  There are a few good ones out there.  If you can't get ethanol free gas locally check home depot or walmart for trufuel40 or trufuel50 which are pre-mixed w/ 2stroke and real, pure, unadulterated gasoline!  They also have cans of real straight gas but I' haven't seen them around me, just the pre-mixed stuff.

[Purple Floyd]

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2011/december/ethanol.asp

Mercury Marine, the world's largest manufacturer of marine engines, recently held a webinar to debunk some of its own myths about ethanol. I attended with interest. The first myth was that there are fuel additives that can prevent all issues associated with ethanol-blended gasoline. For example, no fuel additive can prevent ethanol from acting like a solvent. The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar.
"There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and 'grab' water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank, it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant."
"Major multi-billion dollar companies with enormous resources have improved gasoline additives but there have been no recent breakthroughs involving 'magical technology.' Claims made by companies about 'space-age,' 'revolutionary,' or special proprietary technology should be looked at with a high degree of suspicion."
"E10 Ethanol absolutely IS an acceptable fuel for everyday use."
"E15 Ethanol absolutely IS NOT an acceptable fuel."
"After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
"Don't immediately assume E10 is the problem."

[Hesperus]

All I can say is WOW and that this contradicts what just about every small engine shop across the US has experienced.

[surflizard]

So phase separation is a myth now, Huh ? So the word of some boat insurance salesmen holds more weight on the subject of Ethanol then Certified Mechanics who work on these motors or Petrochemical engineers ? Is this joker related to al gore ? Phase separation of fuel, both gas and diesel has been Scientifically Documentented, it does happen and there is no Scienticic Data to prove otherwise ! I believe Bob Adriance is talking out his --- !
 Free free to look up phase separation, it is caused by condensation in fuel tanks due to temperature changes ! Here is a photo of what "Bob" says doesn't happen !

[Hesperus]

I wonder if Mercury Marine was paid off or strong armed into their comments?  Surely they know better than to dismiss this as mythology.  This was subject of conversation when I bought my new Lund/Merc back in 2008.

[Fishrmn]

The second myth was that fuel additives can make stale or phase-separated fuel useable. "Fuel cannot be rejuvenated," Mercury determined, and they noted that it's a myth that ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided. Here are some quotes from the Mercury Marine webinar.

They admit that fuel separates.  They are saying that you cannot make separated fuel useable again.

Fishrmn

[surflizard]

Once again, it all boils down to what information you believe is credable, I have taken the time to chase down the documentation of phase separation and I've seen the results of using Startron and Amsoil quickshot on old gas and it works, so I'll stick with it !! Good luck guys !

[ice dawg]

Water Hazards
Ethanol absorbs water extremely well. Marine fuel systems are very susceptible to water intrusion. E10 has the ability to absorb a certain amount of water into solution and simply allow it to be burned by the engine.  Here's the comparison: MTBE gasoline can hold about 60 ppm (parts per million) of water in solution; E10 can hold 6,000 to 7,000 ppm of water in solution.  Meaning, if you have a 100 gallon (378.5 liters) tank, it could hold up to .6 - .7 gallons (2.3 – 2.6 liters) of water in solution.
 
The biggest problem with ethanol for an alternative is with “phase separation.” That's what happens when the fuel is saturated beyond it's capacity to hold water in solution.  Water and gasoline actually separate, and the gasoline floats on top of the water.  With MTBE you could simply pump the water out from under the gasoline, or let your filters remove the water.  With E10, ethanol blends more easily with any water.  When phase separation occurs in E10, the ethanol is pulled out of the gas and absorbed by water.  This results in two solutions, neither of which is good for the engine or fuel system…not to mention the environment.  The gasoline left behind is absent of oxygenate. The water left behind now contains a high concentration of ethanol; this solution is highly corrosive and damages any material it may come in contact with in the fuel system. The only solution for phase-separated fuel is to dispose of the entire fuel load, clean the tank, and start over with a fresh tank of E10.
 
E10's ability to absorb water has yet another drawback; it can absorb water directly from the atmosphere through the vent while simply sitting in the tank.  In just 100 days at 70% humidity, E10 can absorb enough water to phase-separate.  The shelf life of E10 is only 60-90 days if left without treatment.
 
Another important fact to remember is that gasoline “oxidizes” when exposed to air. That is, it loses its volatility over time.  A good non-alcohol fuel stabilizer is highly recommended at all times in your boat's fuel. *The key is to not leave a boat for long periods of time with a large load of fuel aboard.

Fuel Stabilizers for Gasoline and Other Information
Because E-10 gasoline has a much shorter "shelf-life" than blended gasoline, Wayne Bauman, Treasurer for the Beaverton Power Squadron, recommends three different products boaters can use with E-10:

Marine Formula Sta-Bil

Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment

Star Tron Gasoline Additive

 
These products stabilize the E-10 for up to one year.  They also have a petroleum distillate base instead of an isopropyl alcohol and OMC2+4 Fuel Conditioner that are recommended for regular (non-blended) gasoline.

[Purple Floyd]

So phase separation is a myth now, Huh ? So the word of some boat insurance salesmen holds more weight on the subject of Ethanol then Certified Mechanics who work on these motors or Petrochemical engineers ? Is this joker related to al gore ? Phase separation of fuel, both gas and diesel has been Scientifically Documentented, it does happen and there is no Scienticic Data to prove otherwise ! I believe Bob Adriance is talking out his --- !
 Free free to look up phase separation, it is caused by condensation in fuel tanks due to temperature changes ! Here is a photo of what "Bob" says doesn't happen !
(Image removed from quote.)
(Image removed from quote.)

I didn't get that from the article at all and hopefully you didn't get the idea that I don't believe phase separation exists. The article clearly and merely stated that there is no product that can cure it when it happens.

[Purple Floyd]

First, before I comment I want to congratulate you an a very well written post.

Water Hazards
Ethanol absorbs water extremely well. Marine fuel systems are very susceptible to water intrusion. E10 has the ability to absorb a certain amount of water into solution and simply allow it to be burned by the engine.  Here's the comparison: MTBE gasoline can hold about 60 ppm (parts per million) of water in solution; E10 can hold 6,000 to 7,000 ppm of water in solution.  Meaning, if you have a 100 gallon (378.5 liters) tank, it could hold up to .6 - .7 gallons (2.3 – 2.6 liters) of water in solution.

That is my understanding too. What I would like to see is whether the ethanol in gas is more problematic than the isopropanol in products like seas foam that is touted so highly. Both are alcohols and both will absorb water similarly.

but the bigger question I have is if you don't have ethanol, then what happens to the water that is in your tank? Obviously neither ethanol or IPA add moisture that isn't there in their absence so without them absorbing that .6 to .7 gallons per 100, what happens when the temp drops below freezing? In the past, before ethanol, you would add heat to the tank so that the water in the gas didn't freeze up. So if we take the ethanol out then what do we do to prevent frozen gas lines except replace one alcohol with another one?
 

The biggest problem with ethanol for an alternative is with “phase separation.” That's what happens when the fuel is saturated beyond it's capacity to hold water in solution.  Water and gasoline actually separate, and the gasoline floats on top of the water.  With MTBE you could simply pump the water out from under the gasoline, or let your filters remove the water.  With E10, ethanol blends more easily with any water.  When phase separation occurs in E10, the ethanol is pulled out of the gas and absorbed by water.  This results in two solutions, neither of which is good for the engine or fuel system…not to mention the environment.  The gasoline left behind is absent of oxygenate. The water left behind now contains a high concentration of ethanol; this solution is highly corrosive and damages any material it may come in contact with in the fuel system. The only solution for phase-separated fuel is to dispose of the entire fuel load, clean the tank, and start over with a fresh tank of E10.

I agree with that however I will pose a question. If we remove the ethanol but that same amount of water is present in the gas, (An amount higher than what 10% ethanol would hold in suspension) what would happen to it in the cold? Would it not then just pool together at the bottom of the tank and freeze? With ethanol only the amount in excess of what it can lock up will phase out. Without ethanol all water would phase out because it does not mix with fuel at all.
 

E10's ability to absorb water has yet another drawback; it can absorb water directly from the atmosphere through the vent while simply sitting in the tank.

Ethanol can absorb water but it can't absorb it until it contacts the water and that can only happen in any large volume is through condensation.But when condensation happens, the ethanol will hold water in suspension until it reaches the saturation point. If there is no ethanol 100% of the water "Phase separates"

In just 100 days at 70% humidity, E10 can absorb enough water to phase-separate.  The shelf life of E10 is only 60-90 days if left without treatment.

I got a bit different number.
Another way water can enter gasoline is through absorption
from the air. Water, in the form of water vapor, can dissolve in
gasoline. The more humid the air, the faster the water vapor
will dissolve in the gasoline. Due to chemical equilibrium,
however, assuming a constant temperature, phase separation will                                                                                      never occur if the only source of water is from the air. Only
enough water to saturate the fuel can enter the system, and no
more. Water vapor, however, dissolves in gasoline very slowly,
even at very high humidity. For example, at a constant
temperature of 100 degrees F and relative humidity of 100%, it
would take well over 200 days to saturate one gallon of gasoline
in an open gasoline can (assuming the only source of water is
water vapor from the air). Water absorption from the air is far
slower at lower temperatures and humidities. (At a temperature
of 70 degrees and relative humidity of 70%, it would take over
two years to saturate one gallon of conventional gasoline in the
same gasoline can.) Again, oxygenated gasolines can hold more
water than conventional gasoline, and would therefore take much
longer to saturate with water.

....

 

Another important fact to remember is that gasoline “oxidizes” when exposed to air. That is, it loses its volatility over time.  A good non-alcohol fuel stabilizer is highly recommended at all times in your boat's fuel. *The key is to not leave a boat for long periods of time with a large load of fuel aboard.

That is where the full tank should reduce the tendency of the fuel to experience oxidation. The process requires the hydrocarbons in the fuel to come in direct contact with oxygen.

Fuel Stabilizers for Gasoline and Other Information
Because E-10 gasoline has a much shorter "shelf-life" than blended gasoline, Wayne Bauman, Treasurer for the Beaverton Power Squadron, recommends three different products boaters can use with E-10:

Marine Formula Sta-Bil

Soltron Enzyme Fuel Treatment

Star Tron Gasoline Additive

 
These products stabilize the E-10 for up to one year.  They also have a petroleum distillate base instead of an isopropyl alcohol and OMC2+4 Fuel Conditioner that are recommended for regular (non-blended) gasoline.

I am very interested in just how and why these products work to extend the life of gas. Generally, if i am not mistaken, they are largely comprised of naptha and other light petroleum solutions. I am not sure what in their chemical makeup prevents the gas from changing it's properties,which leads to breakdown. I do understand their value as solvents to break down carbon buildup on internal engine parts and also to work as a cleanser prior to oil changes where they can remove deposits and leave the engine cleaner, but i don't see anything in their chemical makeup that does anything to make the gas more stable. That is not to say it doesn't happen, but I would really like to know the science and chemistry behind how that may happen.

[surflizard]

Here is a link to Startron enzime based fuel treatment, It does not use alcohol or the petroleum based chemicals.  www.mystarbrite.com/startron

[ice dawg]

First, before I comment I want to congratulate you an a very well written post.


quote]I isn't something that I wrote. It is something I copied from the web and pasted it here. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.