Off topic hunting point system

[wyoboypt]

How many of you would like to see a preference point system for elk, deer and antelope?

[Mac daddy]

I would love to see point system. I'm 39 lived in r.s. my whole life and never have drawn a deer or elk tag out south. This year will make 0 for 50 if u count both species

[fish/hunt4ever]

Personally I do not think a point system is a good idea, but if they increase the cost of licenses it might be a better chance of drawing since I have heard a lot of people say they will stop putting in.

[appleye]

I'm with Mac daddy I think a point system would be great could start to plan a big hunt rather than luck into one. I've never draw a limited deer and quite appling for some elk areas. I've not drawn a bull tag in 15 years for elk. It took 14 points to draw a moose tag and before the point system I had applied since I was 14, but I knew I was going to get a moose tag sooner than later. I know a few people who have draw several hard to get tags in the same area's Ive applied to for deer and elk. On the flip side my wife and I have draw great antelope tags 6 for 7 years and I have a friend who has applied 5 of the 7 years and no tag. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.   

That's my 2 cents. Only need 148 more to buy a soda. 

[MountainMan]

I've said it on here before, I would be all for points. I've got a couple out-of-state friends who whine, cry, moan and complain non-stop about WY license fees, but like I've told them, at least they've drawn decent elk tags in the state within the last 10 years. I haven't drawn a thing, and can't project when I might. I think it would be cool to have an idea of when I could count on drawing an area and plan in advance for it, like my whiny out-of-state friends, who by the way keep coming back year after year after year 

[MountainMan]

I just got off the phone with Cheyenne, because this is something I've been in support of for awhile. First thing they said was that for any changes to be made to the draw system we have to talk to our representatives. The legislature is who makes the changes, the WY G&F just enforce them. About every two years the issue comes up, like it did this year (so if you're really interested in putting the bug in your representative's ear, you've got about two years to do it).

They said their research shows that more residents are against preference points, BUT that those apposed are not as strong in their position as those who really support having them. I picture it as your "average" hunter not wanting to pay more for preference points - these are the guys / gals who would love to hunt a top-notch unit, but in all reality wouldn't put their heart and soul into scouting and hunting it. Those staunch supporters are the guys/gals who know that with the current system they could go a lifetime and not draw one of these areas, and who would like to know that if they choose to spend the time and money that they can eventually draw a certain area.

I think the big mental roadblock is "money for points". Like with the current non-resident system, even though a point system is in place, you CAN still draw a very difficult area without applying for points (about 75% of tags are allocated to those with points, 25% to those with zero points). So why not let the ones who are willing to spend money do it, and those who don't not do it? I'll answer my own question here and say, because some people who would like the chance of hunting a hard-draw area simply cannot afford to pay for points every year, especially if they have kids and spouses who like to hunt too. But again, they'd still have that 25% window that goes to non point holders, right?

[Dorado]

I have lived in WY for 15 years, an have never had any problems getting any-elk (bull) tags, or killing elk.  I have drawn some great tags and had the opportunity to kill some pretty nice bulls.  But I am not putting in for areas that have hardly any tags and have a <5% drawing success year after year  

A point system really only benefits those who want to kill record book trophy animals, in limited quota areas, with limited pressure from other hunters.  While that is a hard-core and vocal group, it is not the average hunter IMHO. 

In the years immediately following the institution of the non-resident point system, you could draw a quality unit for 2 or 3 points.  Now you need 6-7 points, and it will continue to increase each year.  I would guess the same thing would happen with non resident tags on a point system.....

[MountainMan]

Dorado, you're luckier than I am.  40-60% draw odds in the units I typically apply for, and I can't draw an elk tag. Not one. Maybe one of these days I'll hit a streak 

[Dorado]

Dorado, you're luckier than I am.  40-60% draw odds in the units I typically apply for, and I can't draw an elk tag. Not one. Maybe one of these days I'll hit a streak 

If you are like a lot of people I know, you will draw them all in the same year   I know a bunch of people that have drawn combinations of elk, deer, moose, bison and bighorn sheep at once.  More freezers were in order!

[coldoutside]

Would like to see maybe 25% of the license for that area go to the residents with some type of a points system.20% are going to non-residents and the rest of that area go into the general draw. I would like to get one area 57 antelope license in the next 20 years before I get too old. Just a idea

[wyoboypt]

im all for it. in ten years i've drawn 3 elk tags. which isnt that bad but it makes sense to have a point system so that way theres more equal opportunity. some guys draw 3 years in a row while the guy next door hasn't drawn in 8 years. maybe this way we can all draw every 3 years or so depending on the area. sounds like a good deal to me!

[WYIfish]

I had two area 60 licences in the early 80's and still cherish the one 80 point antelope buck I got.  Yes to preference points.

[sunshine daydream]

The point system is perfect for moose and bighorn sheep.  I disagree on points for elk, ya the premier tags odds vary.  My personal opinion that the deer are mismanaged thru the state, and a point system would help create more trophy bucks state wide.  For the  non residents the elk draw is not bad.  It seems that if you have a few points drawing a general license is likely, that's not bad! 

[wyoboypt]

The point system is perfect for moose and bighorn sheep.  I disagree on points for elk, ya the premier tags odds vary.  My personal opinion that the deer are mismanaged thru the state, and a point system would help create more trophy bucks state wide.  For the  non residents the elk draw is not bad.  It seems that if you have a few points drawing a general license is likely, that's not bad!

general licenses can be purchased over the counter. no need to draw.

[WYIfish]

I agree sunshine, especially your comment on the dear herds.  Fore sale, one wolf pelt (just kidding).

[wyoboypt]

The point system is perfect for moose and bighorn sheep.  I disagree on points for elk, ya the premier tags odds vary.  My personal opinion that the deer are mismanaged thru the state, and a point system would help create more trophy bucks state wide.  For the  non residents the elk draw is not bad.  It seems that if you have a few points drawing a general license is likely, that's not bad!

sorry sunshine. im dumb. non res have to draw general

[POk3s]

I would like to see yes but if you put in out of state you know what happens when states go to a points system. Point creep is a serious fear of mine and it's inevitable. You might not have drawn a tag in 25 years but at least you have just as good of a chance as anyone else THIS year. I haven't drawn an elk tag either but have drawn 2 tough to draw deer tags. Antelope is off and on. I at least like to have a chance. You go to a points system and you draw one of the first few years in a premier unit then you're not going to draw again for a LONG LONG time.

A system I think works better is a bonus point system and I think would be more in favor of. For those of you that don't know what a bonus point system is, or the difference in the two systems.....a bonus point system is rewarded the same as Preference points. Can't get more than one per year. Instead of rewarding the person with the highest number of preference points the tag and going down the list you basically are getting "more chances". Say a unit takes 60 tags and you have 10 bonus points. They give you 10 numbers and if one of your numbers lands within 1-60 you draw the tag. If not your'e out of luck. The guy with only one point can draw the tag....just not as many "chances" to draw.

[wyoboypt]

Hunt   Hunt                             Total            First Choice   
Area   Type   Description               Quota             Applicants     
----   ----   -----------------------   -----            -------------   
001    1      ANY ELK                     124                631                                         
002    1      ANY ELK                       8                130                                         
003    1      ANY ELK                      46                 93                                         
006    1      ANY ELK                      84                593                                           
007    1      ANY ELK                    1052               3910                                         
008    1      ANY ELK                     120                 90                                           
011    1      ANY ELK                     129                544                                           
016    1      ANY ELK                     140               1010                                           
016    2      ANY ELK                      49                 83                                         
019    1      ANY ELK                     119                440                                           
019    2      ANY ELK                     120                319                                       
022    1      ANY ELK                      42                496                                           
023    1      ANY ELK                      83                352                                           
024    1      ANY ELK                     154               1213                                           
025    1      ANY ELK                     150                422                                 
030    1      ANY ELK                      25                534                                   
031    1      ANY ELK                      81               1493                                 
032    1      ANY ELK                      62                633                                         
033    1      ANY ELK                     168                193                                                                             
034    1      ANY ELK                     645                661                                     
035    1      ANTLERED ELK                118                419                                         

       I copied this from the wgfd website. this is just the first page of 2012 draw results to use as an example and ive deleted 2nd and 3rd choice applicants to make it easier to read. Obviously, if more first choice people apply than the number of tags issued, then 2nd and 3rd choice are irrelevant anyway. Only first choice will draw.     (EX.)So on a point system, for area 19, type 1 applicants would TYPICALLY draw on average every 3 years.  440/119=3.69. it would take 3.69 years ( or 4 yrs)  to have all 440 applicants to recieve a tag. Yes it is still random but with 3 points (which means you've applied but not drawn for 3 yrs)  you will have a better chance of drawing than than the people who have drawn it the 3 years prior. Do the same math for any of the areas. check your area and see what you come up with. the point sysem gives better opportunity for everyone.

[wyoboypt]

hey POK3 can you explain point creep???

[Dorado]

Do the same math for any of the areas. check your area and see what you come up with. the point system gives better opportunity for everyone.

There area limited number of tags.  There is no way that a point system gives better odds for everyone, that is impossible.  I believe you mean that point system gives greater odds to those that did not draw a tag in the past few years and have accumulated points? 

In the present system, in your example, each applicant has a 27% chance of drawing.  Each drawing is independent.  Given the same number of applicants and tags, the applicant will have a 27% chance of drawing every year, regardless of their drawings in the past.  A preference point system will almost guarantee that you will have to wait several years to have a reasonable chance to draw.
 
Point creep is where the most desirable areas require more and more points to draw, as the public starts accumulating preference points.  Some people will only apply for super hard to draw areas, and accumulate the maximum number of points.  As the system ages and the maximum number of points continues to increase, the required points to draw in the most coveted areas will keep going up.  This is happening with the non-resident tags right now....

Just my .02

[WYIfish]

A guy I  met this fall hunting area 100 near Farson had applied for a number of years for a bull tag and he said he had spent thousands of dollars to buy enough points to draw a tag.  That area is extremely hard to draw a tag out of for bulls.  On the other side, I know another guy that has had two bull tags there in the last 20 years.

[wyofisher85]

A point system would be great. I hunt elk in an area that has about 35% drawing odds. A friend of mine has only drawn 1 tag in the last 15 years. Then you get some one like my dad who draws a tag 4 straight years. Good for him but it sucks for everyone else who has put in for years.

[Sheridanfisher]

I have close connections with employees of game and fish and the point system for elk, deer, and antelope is going to be put up to public forum and eventually voted on probably this coming year.  I have discussed this topic quite often and I am in full support of a point system. There has not been a valid argument that I have heard against this system. 


The argument of point creep in areas that are hard to draw makes no sense. These areas are hard to draw now because they are the best in the state and even with a point system they will still be harder to draw then less desirable areas but if you keep in putting in for that area you will eventually reach a point of guarantee  draw.  Right now the system that is being looked at would still have a percentage of each draw be random so that there is still a chance to draw it with out maximum points.  You wont see the point system reach the numbers of moose and sheep because of the number of tags that are issued compared to those species.


The only people who I have meet that are truly against this are people who have just had dumb luck and drawn their favorite tag every year. If you have never drawn a premium tag and dont care to that is fine there are plenty of general areas out there and the easy to draw tags will remain easy to draw. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to hunt some of the best areas in the state know that there truly is a difference in the quality of hunting in these areas.  Every resident should have a chance to hunt a good area if they desire too. Leaving it to complete chance and letting some people hunt great areas year in and year out while others by no fault of their own never draw is just ridiculous. 


A point system designed the way this one will be should not change draw odds significantly in most areas. Meaning that if an area has a 30% draw rate now it will likely be a guaranteed draw once every three years at this point.  Now draw odds change with quota numbers and what the new hot spot is but this system in its self should not drastically change what areas are easy to draw and what areas are hard.  Every tag in the state has become harder and harder to draw, the only way to make sure you can hunt your favorite area on a semi regular basis is to go to a point system.

[WYIfish]

Thank you sheridan for your post.

[gemcityslayer]

I have close connections with employees of game and fish and the point system for elk, deer, and antelope is going to be put up to public forum and eventually voted on probably this coming year.  I have discussed this topic quite often and I am in full support of a point system. There has not been a valid argument that I have heard against this system. 


The argument of point creep in areas that are hard to draw makes no sense. These areas are hard to draw now because they are the best in the state and even with a point system they will still be harder to draw then less desirable areas but if you keep in putting in for that area you will eventually reach a point of guarantee  draw.  Right now the system that is being looked at would still have a percentage of each draw be random so that there is still a chance to draw it with out maximum points.  You wont see the point system reach the numbers of moose and sheep because of the number of tags that are issued compared to those species.


The only people who I have meet that are truly against this are people who have just had dumb luck and drawn their favorite tag every year. If you have never drawn a premium tag and dont care to that is fine there are plenty of general areas out there and the easy to draw tags will remain easy to draw. Those of us who have been fortunate enough to hunt some of the best areas in the state know that there truly is a difference in the quality of hunting in these areas.  Every resident should have a chance to hunt a good area if they desire too. Leaving it to complete chance and letting some people hunt great areas year in and year out while others by no fault of their own never draw is just ridiculous. 


A point system designed the way this one will be should not change draw odds significantly in most areas. Meaning that if an area has a 30% draw rate now it will likely be a guaranteed draw once every three years at this point.  Now draw odds change with quota numbers and what the new hot spot is but this system in its self should not drastically change what areas are easy to draw and what areas are hard.  Every tag in the state has become harder and harder to draw, the only way to make sure you can hunt your favorite area on a semi regular basis is to go to a point system.

Well said, I can't argue with you... seems like the logical route to go.

[olefish]

The term Dumb luck just about says it all.  I have drawn 2 sheep tags in 3 tries but it took me 6 years into the point system and a total of 28 years to get a Moose tag.  One of the elk areas I have hunted has over a 90%+ draw rate and I missed out 2 out of 4 years.  I also think the point system will  in the long run be a positive for everyone involved. I know that some people do not like the government controlling what we do anymore than necessary and I agree.  But there are situations when it may benifit us all in general.  Good luck all in your applications and draws for 2013.

[WYOBRUM]

TO ME THE BIGGEST THING WOULD BE KNOWING THAT I AM GOING TO DRAW A SINGLE TAG RATHER THAN DRAW 3 TAGS AND NOT HAVE ENOUGH TIME OFF TO USE THE PRECIOUS THINGS OR WORSE YET NOT DRAW ANY EVER. LETS SAY YOU HAD ENOUGH POINTS TO DRAW THAT SPECIAL ELK TAG THEN YOU COULD JUST BUY POINTS FOR YOUR DEER AND ANTELOPE PUTTING YOU CLOSER TO DRAWING THOSE IN THE COMMING YEARS

[wyoboypt]

Yes Dorado you are correct, it gives better odds for people who havent drawn in the previous seasons.    If i apply in year 1 for example my name goes in the "hat" 1 time. If i dont draw then the 2nd year my name goes in twice on account of my 1 point. if i dont draw again then on the 3rd year my name goes in the hat 3 times on account of my 2 acquired points. the guys who draw automatically go back to 1 "name in the hat" where as 2 and 3 point applicants have theirs in 2 and 3 times. ect. therefore people who have greater points will have a better chance of drawing.

[POk3s]

The subject of point creep in areas that are hard to draw makes perfect sense! Ask Colorado how they're liking their point creep right now. Slowly, every area gets slightly higher and higher to draw. With hard to draw tags it will become harder to draw tags (on the average).

Example. For sake of argument Wyoming has had the points system since 2000. Fred will be putting in for area 1 this year with 12 points accumulated. There are only 2 tags given out. Since Fred has been buying his points since the beginning but not applying he has noticed that last year the tag was drawn with 11 points (Obviously since that's how long the points system has been in place). Fred puts in this year thinking it's a done deal. 19 Other guys have been doing the same thing and figured they might as well put in this year since they have maximum points. 2 of those 20 guys are going to draw leaving 18 guys for the next year trying for the same 2 tags unless someone else decides to put in with maximum points. You can see here how point creep can work. It only takes a hand full of guys to rise the "price" of a tag.

Is this an EXTREME case??? yes it is. But watch you're elk area that's currently 20% draw odds take 10 points to draw. Which in turn just cut your "chances" in half if you're following my math there. 90% of areas would be tough to draw. The only exception to point creep is areas that are over 50% draw. Those areas typically stay fairly consistent but if a big bull is killed in one of those areas it becomes a 4 or 5 preference point system almost immediately.

I'm FOR a points system....I just don't know if Preference points are the way to go from what I've seen. With bonus points you keep that possibility of drawing the tag every year, if you're lucky but still raise your odds dramatically each year you buy a bonus point. This might not fly with you guys that are having a hard time drawing tags but I firmly believe is the better route. If we go to a Preference point system I won't hate it. It will take a while for the point creep to catch up but believe me....it will catch up.

[DeadSeaFisher]

Its a never ending cycle, we all want to teach younger people and kids to hunt and fish. The more people we get into the outdoors, coupled with the lack of hunting access in the future surely depreciates the odds. We all B! that there is too many yahoos cruising around the hills of our special hutning areas or even nice general areas. Hunting is like fishing in the way that some people are better at it and spend more time at it than others, its never going to be an equal hunt. A 12 year old or even a high school kid probably arent going to hunt as hard or as long as a dedicated full fledged 'veteran' hunter in that coveted 'trophy' area. I dont know if a point system would work vs now, random.....lots of ogood points either way. I know of a couple instances that a buddy draws 3 and even 4 good tags a year....its pricey. oh yeah, a buffalo drawn too really fills the freezer.