Me again, couldent modify the above. oh well, one posting closer to turin' "PRO". here's a trick from the dragonmyster - its no secret that shiners are hot for pike & walleye, to name a few, an oldtimer told me to "hookem' upside down & through the as- - -" I'd beter use the term "vent" for the sake of this posting, N-E way, you get the drift. hook through the vent and out the bottom of minnow twards the tail, if the barb dont come through, no big deal. - unnatural presentation you say ? indeed it is, so much so that the shiner is allways trying to "right" its self. (this is a "live"-bait gig I should point out.) I got away from steel leaders years ago, mono all the way to the hook, yep, even when targeting gators (pike), it makes them shy away, contraversy? of course! on given times/waters, I'll admit that a northern might take a minnow off a coat-hanger. i do well without leaders, i use - starting with the hook & go'in up as follows - - - hook, (sise to bait) 10"-14" mono, barrel swivel, bullet sinker (line through). after EVERY catch (note capitols) i re-tie, cuting the line 10"-14" tward the reel/tip-up end of line, leaving the swivel tied -tie hook to that "fresh" end and re-tie swivel to main line. use that method my fellow fishermen & women, along with the above mentioned "upside down & through the as - - -" method and you"ll put fish on the ice. ENJOY! D.