IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
Pennsylvania => Ice Fishing Pennsylvania => Topic started by: geothefisher on Dec 13, 2016, 05:34 PM
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It's been a few years since we had our last get together and it's time to talk about doing it again. I've been to them at Rose Valley, Montour Preserve, Sayers and Walker Lake. If anyone lives close to another fun lake to fish with ample parking and would like to head it up, let me know. If anyone would be interested in reviving our old get together, speak up. I know it was always something that I looked forward too, and was usually a real highlight in the season for everyone. I think we could do it at Walker again, simply because the last one was there and we ended up open water fishing instead of ice fishing. If we get some positive responses to having it, I will start making the arrangements. I really hope to hear from all of you!!!
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I would love to attend.
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I would try to make it.
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I would be in for that. still consider myself a rookie for sure. To learn from a seasoned group would be great!
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I was thinking about heading out that way this year to Hunters lake or Rose valley. Don't know where the other lakes are, but if they're not far from Hughesville, I might be interested(if the date works for me). I have a buddy that lives in Hughesville, so I would probably stay at his place overnight.
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Where are these lakes located, I never heard of them before.
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Hi George
Been a long time since we had one of those, if we had it at Sayers like the past, I would come, haven't seen a lot of people in a while. not to mention you haven't seen you in years.
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I was thinking the same after seeing "The Gathering" post in western PA. I have a foggy memory of attending a get together a few years back on the Paupack. I'm definitely interested in doing this again.
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I would attend if it was at sayers. Even a bad day there is still pretty good.
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I would love to attend.
count me in george you know ill be there ;D
we had a blast at the last one even if though there was no ice
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I would love to attend one of these. But most of the lakes mentioned. Are like 5 hours away in good weather.
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Happy to see some responses!!! Seems like everyone likes Sayers. I'll get in touch of some guys from out that way and see what we can do.
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Sayers gets my vote.
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I just googled Sayers and found it. Little bit further than I had planned to drive, but if the weather is good and the date works for me, I just might make it. Looks like my buddy in Hughesville is a little over an hr away, so might stay overnight at his place.
Keep us posted. Thanks.
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I would be interested in this. Sayers is a decent lake and can catch fish, but the crappies are tough to get the legal ones so they changed the rules on the lake this year. You can only keep 10 crappies and of the 10, only 5 can be above 9 inches. Nez
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I'll try to be there depending on the date, Sayers is one of my go to lakes that I like to take the grand kids, you can usually catch fish there and that's what keeps them interested.......
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We will have to plan it for a weekend when there is no Panfish League tournament. As soon as I get their schedule, we will pick a date.
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heck ya ill be there
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I'd be in please let us know.
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We will have to plan it for a weekend when there is no Panfish League tournament. As soon as I get their schedule, we will pick a date.
Dont have to worry about that this year. Only one tourny scheduled and thats on RV.
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Dont have to worry about that this year. Only one tourny scheduled and thats on RV.
True, and I don't think the tournaments draw that big of a crowd, anyway.
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OK. I talked to Greg and he said that they are only doing two NEPL Tournaments this year. The one at Rose Valley and the Spud Memorial. Both events are in February. How does January 21, 2017 sound for a get together on the cut at Sayers sound? I will need to know by Dec. 30th so I can request off work. Hopefully this date will be good for most of you. Those who are planning on attending please post ASAP, and if you are willing to bring a food item to share. I will of course be bringing a large pot of chili, and my propane stove to keep it hot all day.
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Jan 21 works for me, I'll have to double check with the war department to make sure nothing else is going on here. I would say I'm 85% in.
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I work every other weekend but if I'm off ill be there. Id bring the wine but the flash flood in October wiped out my whole basement and destroyed all my vino !
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Jan 21 works George
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Officially got the green light, I'll be there. I'll definitely bring something to eat, I'll continue to monitor and fill a need, whether it be a desert, side, or entrée. Might make this an overnighter considering the drive (3-ish hours). Leaving the option open to share the cost of a room if I end up flying solo.
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I should be able to make it, Will bring something that is needed. Will need to identify a place and time. Nez
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Sounds like a good plan. Whose up for scalloped potatoes with bacon cheese and chives?
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Sounds like a good plan. Whose up for scalloped potatoes with bacon cheese and chives?
You had me at bacon...sounds awesome!
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Never fished it but if there's ice I'm down
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January 21, 2017 is the date!!! We need to know who is bringing what, so we don't end up with 10 bags of chips and no paper plates or plastic utensils. I'm always signed of for a pot of Chili and my sled with attached Coleman stove and tank of propane. I saw scalloped potatoes with bacon, sounds awesome!!! Start signing up for what you are bringing!!! We always have a great time with plenty of food and fun. If you have a favorite local shop that you deal with, try to get a prize donated and ask the owner/manager for business cards to pass out. We all like to travel around and try different lakes, it would be nice to know where shops that are local to these lakes so we all can support them!!! Looking forward to seeing all of you!!!
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I'll bring a charcoal grill and I'll do burgers. I will bring buns and condiments, but if someone wants to handle that end I'll be okay with that. I'll need a head count so I know how many patties I should bring. I will also bring napkins and paper towels, I have a massive surplus.
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I work every other weekend but if I'm off ill be there. Id bring the wine but the flash flood in October wiped out my whole basement and destroyed all my vino !
Sorry to hear Newberry Kid. Everyone says you have mighty fine wine!!! Hope the 21st works for you!
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Looks like scalloped potatoes, burgers and chili so far!!! Looks like a tasty get together is shaping up!!! Good friends, good food and good fishing!!! It doesn't get any better than that!!!
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I'll be there unless my Tioga trip gets pushed to that weekend. You know what I am bringing ;) Remember the last get together there and your buddy advertising to the warden? lol
BTW, the bacon master has started making his own bacon ;)
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Sorry guys- 21st is no good for me. But have a good time and maybe I can make it next year!
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Happy New Year everyone!!! Only 20 days until we meet on the cut at Sayers!!!
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Please pardon my ignorance, but I am unfamiliar with this region. I assume we are fishing Foster Joseph Sayers Reservoir at Bald Eagle State Park. I'm going to need to buy a vowel, I don't know what or where "the cut" is. I would appreciate getting dialed in to the location and a time we plan to meet.
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Put me down for cheeses and bologna. Assuming we ever get ice, eh ?
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hell we dont need ice to have a get together
the last one there was no ice and we had a blast
food fun and good times
ill be bringing either hot sausages or something to grill
always have the grill ;D
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Please pardon my ignorance, but I am unfamiliar with this region. I assume we are fishing Foster Joseph Sayers Reservoir at Bald Eagle State Park. I'm going to need to buy a vowel, I don't know what or where "the cut" is. I would appreciate getting dialed in to the location and a time we plan to meet.
the cut is between the 2 lakes can see it from the highway
let me know if you going can meet you or give you better directions
or you can google it ;D ;D ;D
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I do have off the 21st if I don't get forced into work. Will not commit yet but if I do have off I will bring some munchies
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I'll be there unless my Tioga trip gets pushed to that weekend. You know what I am bringing ;)
APRIL ?
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the cut is between the 2 lakes can see it from the highway
let me know if you going can meet you or give you better directions
or you can google it ;D ;D ;D
Perfect, that's all I needed, thanks Digger. Looking forward to this!!
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you will enjoy yourself we have lotsa fun if if there is no ice ;D
just bring a appetite ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I'll be there unless my Tioga trip gets pushed to that weekend. You know what I am bringing ;)
APRIL ?
if your allowed to come :o :o :o :o :o :o
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I do have off the 21st if I don't get forced into work. Will not commit yet but if I do have off I will bring some munchies
No, you boys are all out of luck this year. She is on maternity leave for the 2017 ice season, Sorry!
Also, Digger scared her away last year with his sausage. Something about a sausage and an ice hole :o
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I'm pretty sure we will have ice for that weekend. Probably will just be the cut. I will keep checking and posting when it is safe. Not safe yet, but would not be surprised by next week we could get on cut if it does not break up in the next 2 days. Also not 100% sure I can make it that day, but will try and if able will bring some food. Nez
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no im out
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Long time Ice angler first time blogger, in fact this will be my very first post but I'd be happy to hear of any plans and maybe, become a self appointed representative from Mercer County. Might even invite a few of the Pymie bunch to tag along. Providin' they chip in for gas, mind ya. But I'm thinkin' there would need be good ice before making the journey.
Uhhh, that is if we NW Ice Holers, would be invited.
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Long time Ice angler first time blogger, in fact this will be my very first post but I'd be happy to hear of any plans and maybe, become a self appointed representative from Mercer County. Might even invite a few of the Pymie bunch to tag along. Providin' they chip in for gas, mind ya. But I'm thinkin' there would need be good ice before making the journey.
Uhhh, that is if we NW Ice Holers, would be invited.
If your bringing wine, women, and walleye whose gonna say no? ;D
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Long time Ice angler first time blogger, in fact this will be my very first post but I'd be happy to hear of any plans and maybe, become a self appointed representative from Mercer County. Might even invite a few of the Pymie bunch to tag along. Providin' they chip in for gas, mind ya. But I'm thinkin' there would need be good ice before making the journey.
Uhhh, that is if we NW Ice Holers, would be invited.
I only called it the NE/NC PA Get Together because that's what it was always called!!! EVERYONE is welcome to come!!!
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hell we dont need ice to have a get together
the last one there was no ice and we had a blast
food fun and good times
ill be bringing either hot sausages or something to grill
always have the grill ;D
Digger wouldn't be Digger without a grill on the ice!!! :thumbsup:
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I should be able to make it. I got some homemade turtle jerky just out of the smokehouse. Might be able to save some
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I should be able to make it. I got some homemade turtle jerky just out of the smokehouse. Might be able to save some
Turtle jerky is awesome! :thumbsup:
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C'mon colder weather!!! It was nice today to be out in the woods with the flintlock and the ground was firm again!!! Lets get some good safe ice on these lakes!!! Has anyone been out and checked the cut? Also, who can bring an easy up canopy for setting up a food tent? John T or Wild, can one of you guys supply one? Folding tables are needed as well. Who has one or two that they can bring? We are 15 days away!!! :woot: :woot: I'm ready for food, fun and lots of :icefish:
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I have a pop-up I can bring. I think I have a folding table as well, I'll bring that if I can find it.
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Checked the cut last night. it is mostly capped with an area of open water from the roadbed about 100 yards back in, most of main lake is still open as well. Good news is it's not supposed to get above freezing until Wednesday, bad news is we have another warm up with rain after that :'(.
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I have a table also
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Sounds good on the tables and an easy up. Thanks guys!!! Now if we can just get the weather to cooperate!!! C'mon old man winter, we want it COLD!!!
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Since we are no longer finding out if anyone is interested in getting a get together around for this year, you all apparently are, I changed the heading to include the place and date. The only question left is what time would everyone like to officially start this great event? The lake is open 24/7/365, but would anyone want to start real early and do breakfast on the ice? Or wait until a little later and do a lunch and snack? It's all up to you guys!!! Has anyone come up with any prizes yet? We are only 12 days away!!!
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I'm good for whenever....
What's everybody bringing trying to figure out what to bring
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Lunch and a snack
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Pics from the last get together. I hope we can get prizes like that this year!
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/cooljordan49/100_1164.jpg) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/cooljordan49/media/100_1164.jpg.html)
(http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv282/cooljordan49/100_1169-1.gif) (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/cooljordan49/media/100_1169-1.gif.html)
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LOL Cool!!! Nothing like a good time with friends, ice or no ice!!! I don't think there will be any MinnKota trolling motors or Vexilars this time!!!
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LOL Cool!!! Nothing like a good time with friends, ice or no ice!!! I don't think there will be any MinnKota trolling motors or Vexilars this time!!!
Well crap! I wanted to win an Ion this year!
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Since we are no longer finding out if anyone is interested in getting a get together around for this year, you all apparently are, I changed the heading to include the place and date. The only question left is what time would everyone like to officially start this great event? The lake is open 24/7/365, but would anyone want to start real early and do breakfast on the ice? Or wait until a little later and do a lunch and snack? It's all up to you guys!!! Has anyone come up with any prizes yet? We are only 12 days away!!!
breakfast lunch dinner supper lets meet n eat
boy i hope they have some good prizes this time
i think the there was a little bribery with the prize commity last time
ill be there around 7 if anybody wants to meet early and do breakfast ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I will be early
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So, should we make an official starting time of 7AM? 8AM? I will probably get there between 7 and 8, and be there all day.
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That's a good time between 7 and 8 till midnight!
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How r prizes given is it raffled or fish or something
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Someone brings tickets, and when you come sign in at the tent you are given a prize ticket. That's what we used to do. No one has mentioned any donated prizes yet, so we are playing that by ear for now. I need to make a few phone calls yet.
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Colder temps are coming! C'mon weather work with us!!!
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This sounds like a fun time! would be cool to meet everyone..
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Weather not looking good
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This sounds like a fun time! would be cool to meet everyone..
It's a lot of fun putting faces with names and finding new fishing friends!!!
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Maybe we should push the date out a bit? We still have time.
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I'm OK with that. Would be nice if there enough ice to do some fishing.
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Maybe we should push the date out a bit? We still have time.
That call needs to be made very soon. I work every other weekend so rescheduling could possibly become an issue with me. As much as I would like to meet everyone, it's not worth possibly burning two vacation days and surrendering 12 hours of pay.
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I'm burning a vacation day for this date. If you guys don't think we will have safe ice on Sayers, we could try for a date in February (two dates are already taken for the Panfish League tournaments) or we could keep the 21st and change lakes. Doesn't matter to me, but after the end of January, we get really busy at work and getting a weekend off is almost impossible. I also tried to set a date that wouldn't interfere with the guys who are going out west to fish on the 28th or 29th. Speak your minds, let's get it figured out.
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I'm not opposed to a venue change. I like the idea of a gathering of ice fisherman and being able to ice fish.
-my vote is keep the date, find an alternate location
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Ok where are you guys thinking then
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Rose valley has 10" of ice as of yesterday
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ok with me just need to know by wed if we are changing lakes
temps this week dont look good but there still should be some ice at rv
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I'm good with rose valley. How's everyone else with that choice.
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South launch
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Out from the south launch or between south and east launch
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Rose Valley would be great. I actually attended my first get together there. Over a foot of snow on the ice that day. Met Cooljordan, JohnT, Digger, Marshrat and many others there that day!
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So is this an official change of venue? Rose Valley is fine by me. Is the attendance pretty close to the same, I have been keeping a loose head count so I know how much food to bring.
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I have 4 in my group coming
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I just checked the weather. Right now they are calling for 44 degrees and rain on Saturday. >:( We will make a final call on Wednesday morning.
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Spoke with JohnT this evening. He was out on the cut last night. With the conditions as they were, and the impending weather, Rose Valley SOUTH LAUNCH is where the get together is going to be. Just not enough ice on the cut for a large group. HEY DIGGER!!! Can you keep us up to date on the ice at RV? Let's hope old man winter finds us in his favor and gives us a great day for Saturday!
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As of yesterday good 10+" of ice between east and south ramps
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Got no problem with moving the gathering, but for planning the time, I know there is an Ice Fishing Across PA tournament on Hill's Creek from 7 am to 1 pm. Something to keep in mind, assuming they still hold it.
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So far it's still on
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Yes, so far it's still on. If guys are going to the ice fishing tournament on Hill's Creek, they weren't planning on coming to the get together. I picked a date based on not interfering with the Northeast Panfish League schedule. They are only running a limited schedule this season with both events in February. I know that is only two weekends of the four in February, but guys who can't pre-fish during the week usually go the weekend before the event so that takes out the month of February. March can be good, but if we wait that long, it can also bite us with warm temps and rain. Some of those people are also going out to Michigan or wherever the last weekend of January. I didn't want to interfere with that either. When this was all in its initial works, winter was looking in our favor, with fishable ice on many lakes. Since then we've had warmer temps and rain. Since last evening, the weather has changed for the Rose Valley area. Right now they are calling for cloudy and 49 degrees with 0% chance of rain. Let's hope this holds true for the remainder on the week. Temps with highs in the 40's during the day and lows in the low to mid 30's at night shouldn't hurt the 10 inches of reported ice enough to keep us off the ice.
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Hi all,
Is this open to newbies too? New to ice shanty, but there are three of us (me and my two boys) interested. Never been to rose valley, and would love to try someplace new. May even get another 1 or 2 friends to bring along.
What time are we looking at? What can I bring?
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If you are registered here on Ice Shanty, you are more than welcome to come and bring friends along as well!!! Bring whatever you would like to share with the gang, hot dogs and buns, chips, pretzels, bottled water, whatever. Just please post on what you are planning to bring so we don't end up with 20 bags of chips and no paper plates! We have really learned to improvise! One year on Montour Preserve someone brought their easy-up canopy, well, they brought the frame and no canopy. Someone else had a tarp in the back of their truck! Things just sort of work out like that!
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OK. Let's start getting an official tally of who is coming and what you are bringing. I'll start off.
geothefisher and gfisher95 We are bringing a large pot of chili, ladle, bowls and spoons, propane stove, 20# propane and a folding table.
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I have 2-3 poeple coming with me and I'm bringing table and turtle jerky.
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Somersboys coming with 3. I'll bring a few lbs of ring bologna, some smoked cheeses, and crackers. Got a table if you need it.
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IT IS OFFICIALLY A GO!!! I just checked the weather channel for Cogan Station, PA and there is NO RAIN in the forecast for Saturday!!! WE ARE DOING THIS!!! So keep checking in so we have an idea of how many to expect, and what you are bringing along!!! Remember...We are going in at the SOUTH LAUNCH. Official start time 8AM. If you want to be there earlier or not show up until noon, that's fine too!!! And some of us will be there ALL DAY!!! We typically have an easy up canopy where we set up base camp with the food tables and a place to hang out. If someone has an Ice Shanty flag, please bring it along!!! I am looking forward to seeing old friends (many were met on RV at the first get together I ever attended) and meeting many new people!!! So looking forward to Saturday!!! See you all there!!! :woot: :icefish: :tipup:
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Don't forget...ALL ARE WELCOME!!! Just because it is called NE/NC PA Ice Shanty Get Together doesn't make it exclusive, it only represents the region!
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You know I got the bacon ;)
And some venison dry beef.
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You know I got the bacon ;)
And some venison dry beef.
All Hail the Bacon King :bow: :bow: :bow:
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Would love to make this but unfortunately have a funeral that morning. Hoping to get up there Sunday for a few hours of fishing! Have fun guys and gals.
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Going to try and make it up
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True, and I don't think the tournaments draw that big of a crowd, anyway.
Usually bigger than the get together roy. You should see the people flock to the tournies in the new western series!!!
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OK. Let's start getting an official tally of who is coming and what you are bringing. I'll start off.
geothefisher and gfisher95 We are bringing a large pot of chili, ladle, bowls and spoons, propane stove, 20# propane and a folding table.
I'm bringing a charcoal grill and cooking burgers. I will bring a folding table and a pop up. I will also bring paper towels.
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Still NO RAIN in the forecast for Saturday!!!
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How far out from South launch are we setting up I will be there early.
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How far out from South launch are we setting up I will be there early.
The last time we had it on RV there was 12+ inches of snow on the ice. We didn't go out very far. For those bringing easy up canopies and tables, you still don't want to go out more than 100-150 yards offshore with all that. We set a central location for gathering and food, but everyone takes off and fishes anywhere they want.
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Since I have to work tomorrow, I started the pot of venison chili today. Wish you all could smell the house!!! 4 pounds of ground venison provided by walleye2009!!! Thank you brother Chuck!!! 4 large cans of kidney beans, 2 large onions, 2 cans of Rotelle, 2 quart bags of home-frozen bell peppers and 3 cans of diced tomatoes along with assorted seasonings and spices. Now if I can only stay out of it until lunchtime on Saturday!!! Thankfully I work tomorrow!!! Can't wait to see you all out there!!! :woot:
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How far out from South launch are we setting up I will be there early.
how early????????????
i will be there bout 7 ish
we can goto the east of the launch off the point have a blue clam
look fo r the guy with the grill set up lmao ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My buddy and I were thinking 1-3 am
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I'm shooting to be there around 7:00 as well Digger. I'll be in the red crew cab Silverado. I'll have a pop-up, grill and a table, we can at least get the base camp established and start soaking some minnows.
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We will actually be there around 5
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Is this get together still a go. Was thinking about making the 2 hour drive to join everybody but was not sure if the ice is still safe. Does anybody have any current ice conditions and if the get together is still? Thanks
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Ice will be fine. Was still 10-12" on Mon. I doubt that any was lost
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I'm bringing donuts and box of joe. :tipup:
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This is it guys!!! Can't wait to see who all shows up!!! It's going to be a fun day!!! :woot: :woot: :tipup: :icefish: :thumbsup:
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We arrived at 8AM. South launch lot had more vehicles in it than I had ever seen at RV. I don't know who all made it out from here on Ice Shanty, but we sure had fun today!!! As always it was so good to see Digger953 and cooljordan (even though April wasn't there)! It was nice meeting a few fellow Ice Shanty kin including tokyo and bigghut and even a few friends (who should be on Ice Shanty) who came out to join us on the ice!!! And it is always great to get out on the ice with my son, gfisher95 and the best friend a guy could have, walleye2009! Plenty of donuts, coffee, burgers, bacon, jerky, bologna, chili and ice cold beverages were consumed!!! If you left hungry, it's your fault!!! Some nice fish were caught, and I hope everyone had as much fun as I did. As I said, we got there at 8AM, I finally punched a hole around 2:30!!! Food and friends on the ice!!! If anyone has any suggestions for a location for next year, post them on here. I will post the suggestions on a new thread for everyone to vote on.
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Was planing to go but was not able to get any one else to go along. How was the fishing? Did you have a good day. Will try to get there next weekend to do some fishing. 2 hour drive. Will try to get to the next one if you have one.
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Agreed...it was fun and nice to meet everyone. Fishing could have been better. Glad the rest made up for it.
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I would have liked to meet and eat more with the guys but so hard to leave fish when we were slamming them gills and perch
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Anyone have any pics to post?
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I have pics but know idea how to post sorry
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We arrived at 8AM. South launch lot had more vehicles in it than I had ever seen at RV. I don't know who all made it out from here on Ice Shanty, but we sure had fun today!!! As always it was so good to see Digger953 and cooljordan (even though April wasn't there)! It was nice meeting a few fellow Ice Shanty kin including tokyo and bigghut and even a few friends (who should be on Ice Shanty) who came out to join us on the ice!!! And it is always great to get out on the ice with my son, gfisher95 and the best friend a guy could have, walleye2009! Plenty of donuts, coffee, burgers, bacon, jerky, bologna, chili and ice cold beverages were consumed!!! If you left hungry, it's your fault!!! Some nice fish were caught, and I hope everyone had as much fun as I did. As I said, we got there at 8AM, I finally punched a hole around 2:30!!! Food and friends on the ice!!! If anyone has any suggestions for a location for next year, post them on here. I will post the suggestions on a new thread for everyone to vote on.
i say hills creek for this years get together
usally has good first ice
nice and open to have a get together
motels close by for anybody that wants to spend a weekend
tackle shack is close by for bait
what more could you ask for?????
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I 2nd that!
I hope they bite better then they did yesterday :%$#!:
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Who would be interested in having a get together this year. It looks like mother nature is going to bless us with some really good ice this year across the ice belt and we should be able to hold one anywhere. Does anyone have any ideas of where you would like to have it? Who would be willing to host the event? I can't do it this year. I might be able to attend, but I just don't have the time to put into it right now. Lakes we have had it at over the years include Montour Preserve, Rose Valley 2 times, Bald Eagle State Park and Walker Lake. We hadn't had a get together in a few years, so I put it together last year in hopes of getting it going again, now it's up to YOU! Who wants to step up and keep it going?
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Two days and nobody responds....
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I would like to see someone put it together I only have been to one that was last year.
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This is the reason I gave it up. Lack of response. I say give it a week to see if anyone's interested and if not F#$@ it.
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I would attend if it worked out with my schedule and if it actually goes down. Had a good time last year.
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I'd be interested in a get together.
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I would be down
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Anyone do this SW PA?
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I'd be there in a heart beat...With derbies and the tournaments I haven't been able to make a meet and greet but this year things are slow so I'd be more than happy to show up....Derby on hills Creek this Sunday the 21st.....
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People want a get together, but nobody has stepped up and said they would put it together. I guess that means we won't be doing one.
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I think with iffy ice conditions that past few years, it's tough for people that come from far away to commit to being there. Maybe we're a bit gun shy. But, if we decide to have one, and I'm free, then I will try and make it. I haven't attended one since we had that one on the Pack. It would be nice to see everyone again and also meet people that I have yet to fish with. My only issue is that the next two weekends, I have family plans that limit me somewhat. So I have to kind of see what develops here before committing.