Sebago Whitefish ~ DDT And Other Pesticides?

[Anomaly]

On FB Maine Ice Fishing someone wanted to know how to catch whitefish at Sebago. I know there are darn few left. Some blame the lake trout introduction. Somewhere I read something about smelt eating whitefish eggs. I do know there aren’t many left there.  Anyway, I found this study done back in the 60’s and I’m putting a pic here of some I caught somewhere else, because we all like pictures. 

https://www.pwd.org/sites/default/files/the_sebago_lake_study.pdf

[woodchip]

Don't blame Lake trout,,  Moosehead than Chesuncook follow a few years after Sebago's loss I Believe it was Acid fallout . I use to really enjoy jigging White off the State park it was a beautiful experience I also know of the loss of whitefish in Moosehead a few years later. Then a  few years later Chesuncook  and Caribou lost most of there Whitefish I and friends use to enjoy fishing for them in all three bodies of water.. In order to catch White fish we had to go north into the Allasgash . The fallout seemed to swing east after Chesuncook.

[Anomaly]

Don't blame Lake trout,,  Moosehead than Chesuncook follow a few years after Sebago's loss I Believe it was Acid fallout . I use to really enjoy jigging White off the State park it was a beautiful experience I also know of the loss of whitefish in Moosehead a few years later. Then a  few years later Chesuncook  and Caribou lost most of there Whitefish I and friends use to enjoy fishing for them in all three bodies of water.. In order to catch White fish we had to go north into the Allasgash . The fallout seemed to swing east after Chesuncook.

I don’t know you read the piece, but DDT seems a likely culprit as well.

[jacksmelt71]

very sad that they are only found in a very small percentage of their range. they are slow growers that feed on the same stuff as smelt, which the biologists figured out when they tried to restore them to st. froid. the ones they put in there never got bigger than 15in. they are also sensitive to polution and temperature. we used to have round or river whitefish in soldier pond. we used to fish for them where the river dumps into the pond in april. they were a blast to catch and fine eating! sadly, no one has caught any in there for over 10 yrs. now the pond is full of y. perch and horn pout which until 10yrs ago didn't exist in there. I'm surprised the bios. even allow people to target them anymore.

[Anomaly]

I heard there was a whitefish stocking effort some time ago.I don’t know much about, BUT there is successful stocking going on in places in the North Midwest. I read about that a few years ago. I wonder if it’s a question of methodology, sustained effort environmental conditions or something else. It wold be nice to see them again in there former waterbodies and maybe a few others, like Tunk and Nicatous.

very sad that they are only found in a very small percentage of their range. they are slow growers that feed on the same stuff as smelt, which the biologists figured out when they tried to restore them to st. froid. the ones they put in there never got bigger than 15in. they are also sensitive to polution and temperature. we used to have round or river whitefish in soldier pond. we used to fish for them where the river dumps into the pond in april. they were a blast to catch and fine eating! sadly, no one has caught any in there for over 10 yrs. now the pond is full of y. perch and horn pout which until 10yrs ago didn't exist in there. I'm surprised the bios. even allow people to target them anymore.

[woodchip]

Also on Eagle lake in the Allagash in the spring off one of the camp they were very active in the evenings we were there and catching them on a fly rod was a blast.

[tkmoney_99]

Very interesting read in the report.  I love the netting reports and how much it has changed in just a few decades. Thank you for sharing.

[grub662]

Pesticides, chemicals from runoff, acid rain, loss of spawning area, Global warming? Maybe a combo or all of the above.

[jacksmelt71]

Also on Eagle lake in the Allagash in the spring off one of the camp they were very active in the evenings we were there and catching them on a fly rod was a blast.

was this recently? I've fished it several times over the last 10 yrs. since they stocked and never caught 1 jigging in the spots we used to get them 30yrs ago. used to be some cocker whites in that lake!

[Gfish69]

Pesticides, chemicals from runoff, acid rain, loss of spawning area, Global warming? Maybe a combo or all of the above.
Humans

[GasBlaster]

Is it worth it

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/08/11/pestered-by-mosquitos-and-tics-ticking-you-off-a-mite-perhaps-thank-the-green-war-on-ddt/

[zwiggles]

Is it worth it

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/08/11/pestered-by-mosquitos-and-tics-ticking-you-off-a-mite-perhaps-thank-the-green-war-on-ddt/

That is a good, but sad article GB. Thanks for the read.

[Anomaly]

Is it worth it

https://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/08/11/pestered-by-mosquitos-and-tics-ticking-you-off-a-mite-perhaps-thank-the-green-war-on-ddt/

I figured you would bite on that GB. I am well aware of the issues you raise, but the are myopic in scope at best. Yeah, It IS worth getting rid of that and putting regs in place. The latter, most importantly so. That being said, the ripples across and trough ecosystems can and would be grave for many species as large chunks of the food chain are killed. The effects of non-regulation would likely have been more dire than any non-action could come close to. Whitefish in Sebago and other waters, INCLUDING THE USE OF BROAD SPECTRUM PESTICIDES AND OTHER CHEMICALS, were likely killed off by DDT and other contributing manmade factors. DDT and other chemicals would have eliminated many other species as well as affecting the detriment  human life everywhere beyond the mentions in the piece you posted here, GB. I imagine you are familiar with chemical/pesticide  resistant diseases and pests and the issues created there in food systems, ecosystems and human health.

Having said all that, The FDA said, noting the factor of resistance developed.: "DDT (dichloro-diphenyl-trichloroethane) was developed as the first of the modern synthetic insecticides in the 1940s. It was initially used with great effect to combat malaria, typhus, and the other insect-borne human diseases among both military and civilian populations. It also was effective for insect control in crop and livestock production, institutions, homes, and gardens. DDT's quick success as a pesticide and broad use in the United States and other countries led to the development of resistance by many insect pest species.
https://www.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/ddt-brief-history-and-status

[Anomaly]

Below is a pretty in-depth piece. It’s focal point over all is the effect on humans. I believe the biggest benefit of DDT regulation is the precautions established across the use of chemicals in the environment. It is worth noting, too, DDT is NOT banned for use against malaria and other vector Diptera subspecies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821864/

[gola yona]

Never caught one before heard they are good eating. But from the sound of things i would probably feel bad for catching one if i did. Too bad me and my son will never get to catch or taste any because other people cared less about the world.

[woodchip]

I really think the PH was the biggest factor.  Up north Heavy timber cutting, in the southern part of state . more use of shoreline development more lawns and landfills close to tributarys of large bodies of water. Sebago has to big land fils  with in feet of brooks or streams running into it. They have cap them over so rain cannot filter through .But evaporation puts water up into Mass and then back into lakes

[zwiggles]

Below is a pretty in-depth piece. It’s focal point over all is the effect on humans. I believe the biggest benefit of DDT regulation is the precautions established across the use of chemicals in the environment. It is worth noting, too, DDT is NOT banned for use against malaria and other vector Diptera subspecies. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821864/

You don’t feel the biggest benefit/gain from DDT was saving human lives in the present when they were using it post WW2, but rather that humans began to perceive chemicals as potentially dangerous to our environment?

[woodchip]

I do not have any good thoughts about DDT  . and Millions of dollars paper companies spent spraying Herbicides and insecticides.

[Anomaly]

You don’t feel the biggest benefit/gain from DDT was saving human lives in the present when they were using it post WW2, but rather that humans began to perceive chemicals as potentially dangerous to our environment?

Nope. I’s not just about DDT either. BUT the broader implications for the entire planetary ecosystem could WELL have been more detrimental to many more humans across the food chains and environmental flora/fauna collapse. IN the present, were necessary, DDT is permitted in controlled applications. Overall, the benefits of regulations, largely beginning with DDT, likely saved many human lives.

[Srbcee8]

On FB Maine Ice Fishing someone wanted to know how to catch whitefish at Sebago. I know there are darn few left. Some blame the lake trout introduction. Somewhere I read something about smelt eating whitefish eggs. I do know there aren’t many left there.  Anyway, I found this study done back in the 60’s and I’m putting a pic here of some I caught somewhere else, because we all like pictures. 

https://www.pwd.org/sites/default/files/the_sebago_lake_study.pdf

(Image removed from quote.)

Sweet Scoop! She's seen some ice.

[zwiggles]

Overall, the benefits of regulations, largely beginning with DDT, likely saved many human lives.

Fair enough.

I don’t agree with you, but I understand what you meant more clearly now.

However, were as it may be “likely” that this approach has saved many human lives, it is not up for debate that DDT did save millions of lives when it was used post WW2.

[Anomaly]

Fair enough.

I don’t agree with you, but I understand what you meant more clearly now.

However, were as it may be “likely” that this approach has saved many human lives, it is not up for debate that DDT did save millions of lives when it was used post WW2.

It’s like: Fixing pollution with the Clean Water Act removing sewage,  mercury and sulfuric acid for water ways and now  stoping climate change to save species could be said saved millions of lives. What I mean is, by eliminating environmental invasive chemicals, we stop likely  detriment. You COULD SAY it would have happened naturally, Right? Some would say, that after things are all good, we didn’t need to do anything. Well The clean water and air acts DID do something. Controlling pesticide and herbicide use is the same. Yep, if things are OK, we don’t really know, BUT, like Gassbladder said, Is it worth it? Imagine if we are wrong about climate change and end up with a better world, for instance. OMG! 

[woodchip]

Excessive  gas into the air is a big cause of   OUR Atmospherics  problems. Sorry but I just had to say that!!!!!

[Anomaly]

 

Excessive  gas into the air is a big cause of   OUR Atmospherics  problems. Sorry but I just had to say that!!!!!

[zwiggles]

It’s like: Fixing pollution with the Clean Water Act removing sewage,  mercury and sulfuric acid for water ways and now  stoping climate change to save species could be said saved millions of lives. What I mean is, by eliminating environmental invasive chemicals, we stop likely  detriment. You COULD SAY it would have happened naturally, Right? Some would say, that after things are all good, we didn’t need to do anything. Well The clean water and air acts DID do something. Controlling pesticide and herbicide use is the same. Yep, if things are OK, we don’t really know, BUT, like Gassbladder said, Is it worth it? Imagine if we are wrong about climate change and end up with a better world, for instance. OMG! 

I understand where you are coming from.

Personally I LOVE fishing. I also kind of hate people.

That being said if we could save human lives by eliminating every salmon on the planet, I would be behind getting rid of the salmon. I mean this in a completely hypothetical, impossible situation in which you have a choice to save 50 people you may or may not know, or save all the salmon. As much as I like fishing the salmon are gonzo.

Human life is just that much more valuable - to me - than the other life forms we share this round rock with.

It’s also interesting to think about/debate what the potential loss of life would be from the hypothetical loss of salmon. Would people starve? Would something else fill the ecological niche left behind by said salmon?

I think that is what GB was getting at with the article he posted, and it’s also the opinion of a few of the scientists who backed the use of DDT “back in the day”.

Personally I remember DDT having such a bad rap growing up, and only when I started to learn more about WW2 in college did I stumble upon what a wonder drug/chemical this was for saving lives.

I wonder if the areas of the continent that still hold healthy, robust, and old populations of whitefish ever used DDT? The Great Lakes still have a rediculous whitefish fishery from what I understand, and they used DDT at least on the US side, but it would seem to be better comparison to use a lake similar to the size and make up of the ones you have in Maine.

I know in NH every once in a great while will catch a whitefish out of one of our “big lakes”. I spoke to a state Bio who had seen a picture of a whitefish taken very recently in Lake Winnipesaukee, and he was startled that they still existed in that lake. We used to have a great fishery for them on several lakes, but they all but seem to have disappeared as well.

[Kourcha]

Whoa Kill all the salmon, Thats sure gonna make it hard to fish Alaska  Alot of hungry bears!

[MadSledder]

Its very sad the historic and likely ongoing loss of our whitefish. I bet we loose a few more populations in the next 10-20 years sadly. The cause of their demise is probably many things and not just one (ie acid rain or ddt). Places like Chesuncook - well they are a fall spawning fish and that lake is drawn down 20-30 ft over the winter so all your eggs dry out. You might also get some partial egg loss in sebago and other lakes with winter draw downs. The '50 - '80s a lot was happening around the state with new fish being introduced to a lot of waters, developments, dams, acid rain, pesticides, yikes.

Keep in mind that these are a very long lived fish, so fishermen might still be be catching adults for 10 or 20 years after something else is causing problems with juvenile survival. I worry about these talks of "they ain't like they used to be" in the few waters that still have them are evidence that they ain't gonna be around much longer in those waters.

[zwiggles]

Don’t they get to be 50 years old or something crazy?

[saltyshores]

According to Maine's species plan for whitefish, Maine lake whitefish ages have been up to 12 or 13 years while in some other geographical locations some fish have reached 15-20 years old

[woodchip]

Personally I LOVE fishing. I also kind of hate people.  How can one state a comment like that and be a fisherman.  White fish are still very common in the Great lakes. North lakes do fluctuate in level a lot but they have been lowering the water levels before the spawning  time for lake trout. But with extreme weather it makes it difficult to maintain the right levels.