Author Topic: Keeping holes open, great idea  (Read 115646 times)

trapperdirk

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #30 on: Oct 23, 2004, 01:01 PM »
We muzzled that ol dog Cider Otis and were not allowing him out of his kennel . LMAO .  ;D Just take my word for it cause I'm Trapperdirk *** the Science Guy in his absence . ROTFLMAO ;D

Offline rgfixit

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #31 on: Oct 24, 2004, 05:05 AM »
In the abscence of "Cider The Science Guy" I'll give it a whirl.

It's a fact that under certain circumstances, hot water will cool and freeze faster than cold.

Today it's known as the Mpemba Effect, named for a Tanzanian high school student who re-introduced the problem to the scientific community in the 60's. To date is still not completely understood.

As I recall the first references to this phenomonon were by Aristotle. Theories have rolled around for centuries and yet no one can present absolute proof.

How might I know about such seemingly useless facts? ???  I've managed many large buildings in my working life and have run across the problem before. Intuition told me it was impossible, still it happens. I researched it and it stuck in my brain.

Hard to believe I still have brain cells to devote to remembering stuff like this when most times I can't tell you what day it is or my phone number. :-\

RG
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo and you were a pair of brown shoes?"

Offline genz_man

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #32 on: Oct 26, 2004, 02:38 AM »
Methane GAS works best for me. ;) :o ;) Second choice is a few drops of denatured alcohol every so often cause it will BIODEGRADE easily. You have to do it every so often cause it will dilute and evaporate. Somebody posted something about spraying wd-40 on a minnow and you are not supposed to do that. :%$#!: That is oil based and BAD for the enviornment.

GEM_EYE_GUY

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #33 on: Nov 08, 2004, 08:33 AM »
Careful with Gman's suggestion.  I suspect methane gas is responsible for the condition of the shanty in his avitar.  :D  ::)

P Gottshall

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #34 on: Dec 10, 2004, 11:30 AM »
Simple.  Pour a quart of 10W30 in the hole & light it.  The oil will float, and will burn for hours.  And since it all burns off, it is environmentally friendly.

Now, we just need to come up with high-temp fishing line, & keep those fiberglass poles back a bit. . .  ;D

Paul

Offline nodakbassmaster

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #35 on: Dec 10, 2004, 12:05 PM »
i woul bet the fish would smell the wd 40 this wont help your tip up hole this is for keeping your hole open overnights when you fish a hardshack and dont want to drill inside your fishhole and then you have to shovel it all out...check these airbags out www.airbags.com

Dead link? All I get is a news page.... do you have any more info on those? Thanks
-Richard

Not enough ice or time... not necessarily in that order.

Offline nodakbassmaster

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #36 on: Dec 10, 2004, 12:07 PM »

Anyway, have any of you tried those battery operated hole warmers? They are like little disks that keep the hole warm so it doesn't refreeze. I think I need these for my wind tip ups.

Tyler
Do you have any more info on those? Thanks!
-Richard

Not enough ice or time... not necessarily in that order.

Offline mnfishman

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #37 on: Dec 10, 2004, 01:20 PM »
Auger a hole next to your fishing hole but only go about 3 inches deep.  Take a coffee can and get some charcoal in it and get the fire going so that you get good coals.  Place the coffee can in the 3" deep hole and then use your chisel to take out some of the ice between your fishing hole and the coffee can.  You want the water to fill up around the coffee can from the fishing hole.  The heat from the can will keep the top of your hole warm and open. 

We use this for fishing tournaments where you can't haul out a ton of stuff.  It will keep the hole open the entire time you keep the coals going.  I used it last year in a few tournaments where the temp was below 0 for the entire day.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #38 on: Dec 12, 2004, 08:19 AM »
Actually, the answer is no.  Hot water does not freeze faster than cold water.  Then again, the answer is yes.  Hot water does freeze faster than cold water in various experimental conditions.  What the hell do you mean??  You're confusing me doggy!!

Remember one rule of thermodynamics: HEAT travels towards COLD.  If you wrap your hand around an ice cube, your hand will begin to hurt from the cold.  That is not because the cold from the ice cube is traveling into your hand.  COLD does not travel towards HEAT.  The heat in your hand is being adsorbed by the ice cube which causes the ice to melt as its temperature increases.  This also results in a temperature drop in your hand which triggers nerves to send electrical/chemical impulses to your brain to tell you: "HEY DUMMY, DROP THE ICE OR YOUR HAND WILL FALL OFF!"

It is a simple phenomenon to test.  Or is it??

Use cold tap water, hot tap water, and boiling water from your tea kettle.  Fill ice cube trays (volume is held constant) with all three and stick them in the freezer.  Time the event to see which forms ice first.  The answer:  cold tap water will always freeze first.

HOWEVER, if you take extremely hot water and compare it to room temperature or cold water or even hot tap water.  The EXTREMELY hot water will freeze first.  WHY?  Simple.  Water vapor!  EXTREMELY hot water will evaporate at a very fast rate.  Thus, the volume of the water is decreasing rapidly.  Much more so than that of the room temperature water.  Therefore, small volumes of water freeze faster than large volumes of water.  Ponds freeze before lakes.  Make sense?

There is another factor involved: convection (and density).  Molecules in motion.  Excited molecules move faster.  Heat excites molecules.  This also has an affect on temperature loss (freezing).  Very complex physics now.  We are talking about melting points of solids and freezing points of liquids, sublimation of solids, super cooling, conduction, dissolved gasses, and energy requirements for these physical changes of state (matter).  Won't get into it here.  A lot of it is speculative at best and quite contrary (counter-intuitive) to what seems to be normal logic.

Part of the problem in explaining this phenomenon is in the experimental design.  You have to take into account all possible contributing factors.  Container size and shape that your water samples will be placed in, timing of the experiment, impurities in the water samples, initial temperatures, size and shape of the freezer, air currents within the freezer, surrounding environments for each sample, etc.

So, the problem is in recreating the ideal conditions for hot water to freeze faster than cold water.  Many labs have tried diffent experiments with differential results becuase the variables involved in this phenonmenon are many and not understood very well.

There is an excellent article in Scientific American (September 1977) that discusses the disparities between freezing rates and temperature of water.  Check it out if you are really interested...

My head hurts ???

Offline fastribs85

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #39 on: Dec 12, 2004, 02:00 PM »
me too

Offline chrisN

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #40 on: Dec 24, 2004, 01:43 PM »
another tip for keeping your holes open in a schack is if you take a crazy carpet and roll it up and stick it in the hole and this will also help to stop cold air from coming up through the hole in the floor of your shack. 
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MikeThePike

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #41 on: Dec 24, 2004, 06:26 PM »
I had a buddy spray his minnow (frozen shiner) with WD-40 and he was catching fish with it.  They were biting so good that day it was impossible to tell if it helped, but at least it didn't hurt.  As for keeping ice off the hole I'm not sure.  I've used windshield washer antifreeze with some luck but it doesn't float so bringing fish up the hole dilutes it.  Don't think its bad for the environment but I don't use it anymore.

I know on a fishing show a long time ago the guys sprayed their lures with WD-40 because they said it kills the scent of your hands on the bait. They were catching fish but who knows how valid it is that the WD-40 helped in that.

Bottom bouncer

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #42 on: Dec 31, 2004, 08:35 AM »
Here's another version drill your hole ,if water in hole is down a ways because snow ,ice , whatever,drill a hole up wind is best, next to it just touching ,or if water is not to far down say 1" the can will melt down pretty quick . Use 3Lb. coffee can about 1/3 full of charcoal and light .it's best to start the cans away f/ hole if you are fishing in hole . do this on tailgate or on ice . We use or make up something to help hold the can upright when it starts to float and this helps prevent the can from drifting into your hole . A piece of wire or steel rod that you can throw ice on to center can outside your hole and anchor.Takes some time to get used to. Placing the can up wind helps keep your line out of harms way. But even -20 your hole will be open and smoooooooooooooking. Add a few briquettes now and then to keep it going,helps to dump ashes know and then. sounds like a hassle but it works great.Looks like I'll be doing it this weekend, talking highs around 0 to 5 lows to -9 . Any good ideas to keep me from freezing my tail to my pail would be helpful.

Offline stumper

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #43 on: Dec 31, 2004, 10:35 PM »
thought of this today,try putting a handwarmer inside a popbttle with a little water"to get it to sink a bit"and place it in the hole?anyone think it will work?are the hand warmers hot enough?as far as keeping holes from freezing over night in the shack,i make vinyl hole plugs filled with foam.shove them in the hole and they displace the water.work great!!!


stump

Offline adipose

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #44 on: Jan 06, 2005, 12:47 PM »
I cut the bottom off of a black 5 gal.pail and make my tip ups.Up here in saskatchewan it gets really cold.then i take hand warmer packs and attatch one underneath the pail.with the sun and pack combined this seems to work even in -20.hope this helps.also along with a flag,i have a personal alarm rigged to the flag.when i get a strike the flag pulls the pin on the alarm and then the whole lake knows your on.you can quite the alarm down by putting tape over the sound hole.you can buy the alarm for 4.00 at radio shack.runs forever on one single battery.see ya all

Offline Lobes

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #45 on: Jan 06, 2005, 05:51 PM »
Hot water / cold water thing - final answer:
Hot water does freeze faster as long as the ambient temperature (in this case outside temperature) remains the same. It is because water (or anything for that matter) will continue to cool at the same rate until it reaches the ambient temperature.
Water won't get below 32 degrees unless it is moving or pressurized. As it can get hotter than 212 degrees under pressure also.

 :thumbsup:

Mecosta County / Lakeview, Michigan

Offline bigfish57

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #46 on: Jan 06, 2005, 06:45 PM »
thought of this today,try putting a handwarmer inside a popbttle with a little water"to get it to sink a bit"and place it in the hole?anyone think it will work?are the hand warmers hot enough?as far as keeping holes from freezing over night in the shack,i make vinyl hole plugs filled with foam.shove them in the hole and they displace the water.work great!!!


stump

Those things need oxygen to work. I found this out after puting then in a plastiv baggy and the stoped working after 15 mins or so.
Anthony

Offline Gator-Bait

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #47 on: Jan 07, 2005, 09:30 AM »
the can and charcoal is going to get my vote good idea can use the presoak to i bet :tipup:
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JPS

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #48 on: Jan 07, 2005, 11:58 AM »
thought of this today,try putting a handwarmer inside a popbttle with a little water"to get it to sink a bit"and place it in the hole?anyone think it will work?are the hand warmers hot enough?as far as keeping holes from freezing over night in the shack,i make vinyl hole plugs filled with foam.shove them in the hole and they displace the water.work great!!!
stump

hand/foot warmers rise their temperatures by the reaction of some metal oxide in presence of oxygen... so foot warmers are designed to be used inside a boot/shoe where the air circulation is limited as compared to a glove/pocket, in fact they get damn hot if you keep the foothingie open in the air, so try them in your "invention" if the handwarmer is not enough,

now, I don't know what happens when the handwarmer gets really soaked inside the bottle.... you may want try replacing the water by a small amount of gravel?

JP

Offline stumper

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #49 on: Jan 08, 2005, 07:14 AM »
sand would work,and a hole in the lid to let in fresh air as well since the cap will stay above water level.


stump

P Gottshall

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #50 on: Jan 08, 2005, 02:18 PM »
Copied from another site:

1) For those that like to rough it out in the open come hard water, here is an old trick I'd like to share with you. Take a one pound coffee can and drill a inch hole inch from the bottom of the can. Take 8 feet of inch copper tubing and stick about 8 inches out of the hole in the can and wrap the tubing around and around the inside of the can with the last foot or so sticking out the top, aiming down. Throw a couple of handfuls of self-starting charcoal in the can and light it. Set the can next to your hole, with the lower end of the tube in the water. The heat from the charcoal will suck up the water, heat it and spit it back into the water from the top tube, keeping your hole ice-free no matter how cold it gets and the charcoal will burn for hours. You can fashion a handle from a coat hanger or whatever.

Just a safety note, please don't try this type of thing in a portable or any type of fish house. The fumes WILL kill you.


Paul

P Gottshall

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #51 on: Jan 08, 2005, 02:58 PM »
Another copied idea, from Augernaut:

Ok, I'll give away my best idea ever... :-) Go to an auto parts store, buy a pack of the interlocking foam floor garage mats. They are about 1/2" thick closed cell foam, usually 24"x24". They have little ears on them that lock the mats together. They usually come in a pack of 4 for about $9 or so. Now, cut each mat in quarters, so you end up with 4 - 11 1/2 x 11 1/2 (approx) square for each mat. That's 16 per package. A utility knife works great. Now, drill a 1/2" hole in the center of each mat piece, and cut a slit from the hole to one outside edge. You know have made 16 tipup hole covers that work awesome, for $9 Sell some to your buddies, and yours become free! (who needs 16 anyways?) They are fantastic, the holes stay totally ice free and the foam never freezes in like carpet does. Carpet gets wet, soggy, gross. And I'm sorry, but I'm not going to pay $7-9 for one hole cover. These are the ticket, try 'em you'll like 'em!!

These are also good to keep your feet off the ice, & are light.

Paul

Offline gulp

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #52 on: Jan 09, 2005, 04:21 PM »
Take a coffee can and cut both ends out. Pait it flat black.By placing it over the hole it will keep the wind and snow out of your hole and the black will help keep the hole open. Not much good at 40 below but ok for most days.
Take a kid fishing,they make great pack mules.
Put the big ones back for another day eat the small ones.

Offline gair-z

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #53 on: Jan 09, 2005, 08:13 PM »
kinda like the frisbee, coffee can lid, garage mat ideas..  we use black 3-tab shingles..  heck there's always somebody with leftover shingles eh?  gett'em for free!  cut them at the 1/3 gap marks and trim as needed. cut them round or leave them square.  cut a slot from center out to edge to fit around your tipup..  works darn good when the suns out...  they tend to melt down into the ice they get so warm.. 
Pres.    Cuba Lake Crappie Killers (pre Ice Shanty) (defunct)
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P Gottshall

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #54 on: Jan 09, 2005, 09:50 PM »
gairz,

That one's excellent!  Probably works best with dark colored shingles?  Do you need more than the slot already in the shingle?

Paul

Offline gair-z

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #55 on: Jan 10, 2005, 06:35 AM »
we cut the shingles at the 1/3 points (at the gaps) so what we end up with is a 12"x12" square shingle with no gaps.  se we cut one 1/2 inch wide to fit over our tipups.  we use black shingles if we can find them.  cheap and effective.
Pres.    Cuba Lake Crappie Killers (pre Ice Shanty) (defunct)
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2013 1st place DSO Ice Tourney - Bluegill

Offline pike4some

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #56 on: Jan 14, 2005, 10:02 AM »
The shingle idea sounds great i'll have to try it when i find some shingles. right now though I am just using some left over carpet cut into 12" to 14" squares hole in middle and cut to outside for my Tip-ups

Offline C.C.

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #57 on: Jan 14, 2005, 04:54 PM »
That shingel idea sounds great . The only thing I cant figure out is the concern for dark ones? All the one's I've ever put on were black on the under side.
            Jim

Offline hollis

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #58 on: Jan 15, 2005, 08:30 PM »
Another variant is use a deep glass jar,..glue a teather to it,..(keeps it on the side of the hole) a bit of sand in the bottom to sink it down so the top of the jar is an  inch or two from the surface of the water. The screw on top has a few holes on it,..I found I had to put a 1/4 piece of tubing in the cap to near the BOTTOM of the jar just above the sand level,..I think it makes it draw O2 and it doesn't drown in its own carbon dioxide. a few small holes in the top...I also put some aluminum foil on the underside of the lid to bounce some of the radiant energy down to the sand,..make sure you poke some holes in foil to line up more or less with the vent holes on the top of the lid. A plumbers candle or the ones at outdoors stores (for mini lanterns) I think work best.  A side effect at night it lights up the hole nd gives you some reference to where they are  (tip ups) It MIGHT even be an attractor?,..I dunno,..I don't think a warden work make issue of it in states that say you can't use lights as an attractant,..esp if you show how you are just keeping the holes ice free. Light is not that bright and if you are allowed to set a lantern on the ice to see around your area it generally makes a lot of glow on the ice (check it out with a Cam)

Offline hollis

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Re: Keeping holes open, great idea
« Reply #59 on: Jan 15, 2005, 08:58 PM »
BTW if its very deep cold and windy it might be better to use a tin can with self starting charcol and sink it the same way with sand or some rocks about the same aforementioned depth,..same teather,..a little chain with a wooden handle helps cause it can get very hot and could easily melt your line,.The chain handle can remove it for a"fish happening",.Charcoal doesn't need a lot of O2 to burn (low O2 slows it down a bit and thats something that may be desireable depending on how cold it is,..at the Christmas shops they once had cheap metal cans with snap on lids,..again.drills holes and put aluminum reflectors,.BTW Re: the candle jar method,..I have put a layer on one side of the jar also ..to reflect the energy back toward the open part of the hole,..I think it helped when it was very cold,.  like the lights/candle thing at night,....the charcoal might be easier.

 



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