Author Topic: Proper gas for small engines!  (Read 63726 times)

Offline LoneWolf

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Proper gas for small engines!
« on: Nov 13, 2006, 08:43 AM »

Hopefully this will answer all questions ... it's directly from Tanaka's website :  ;D

Q. How can Tanaka Perfect Mix® accommodate my other brands of power equipment that require a different ratio than 50:1?
A. Oil is a blend of components. The bulk of it is a base stock, which is oil, but its primary purpose is not to lubricate, but rather to blend with, and carry, additives that provide specific functions. The most important additive is the one that provides the lubricity. Some people refer to this additive as "bright-stock".  The base oil also can blend with and carry other additives designed to accomplish different things. For example, quality oils have an additive that helps maintain the integrity of the gasoline should it be stored as mixed fuel for extended periods. Another additive may help reduce exhaust smoke. 

Oil took on a marketing theme many years ago. A company who made brand A product also sells oil. How do they protect their oil business and prevent customers from buying the competitors oil? Let's say for the sake of argument that an oil blend requires X amount of the lubricity additive to adequately run an engine. The manufacturer would then formulate an oil blend with the amount of additives to reach that level when mixed at the odd ratio they prescribe for their product. As you've seen, there are 16:1, 25:1, 32:1, 40:1 42:1, 50:1, etc. However, if you analyzed these oils, you'd find very similar amounts of the actual ingredients needed to provide the life allowing lubricity (even at these odd ratios). This has been a very effective way of convincing a customer who bought a unit requiring two cycle oil to buy their brand of oil. Who wants to take a chance on a $500 machine?? If it says 42:1, the customer assumes he needs to seek out a 42:1 oil.

Tanaka Perfect Mix® is what's referred to as a one-mix oil. The oil is formulated so that when mixed at 50:1, or 2.6 ounces per gallon of fuel, it contains enough of the life-giving additives to work in any of these engines. Additionally, it goes a long way in simplifying the mixing of the oil with the self measuring bottle. There are other one-mix types of oil that mix at a ratio of 100:1. Most people would look at that and think that there simply isn't enough oil to allow the engine to survive, but again, it's not the amount of base stock that is the important issue. It's what is contained within the blend. Their blend has higher percentage of the additive than does an oil that mixes at 25:1.

One consideration to all of this is that some engines are simply not well made. Typically products sold through mass-merchandisers such as Wal-Mart, Home Depot, etc. sell products designed for very low performance and limited engine life. They differ considerably in construction, using stamped connecting rods, non-plated cylinders, bushings where bearings belong, etc. These engines will not survive for extended periods with any oil - they're simply not designed to. In many cases, if a customer gets less than 50 hours of operation from such an engine, then the product has met the objective of the manufacturer. Oil cannot overcome quality / design issues to that extent.

This can be a very confusing situation, and the engine industry has to take the blame for complicating the issue. We would like to take a little credit for simplifying it.


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Offline Grizzly1

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #1 on: Dec 04, 2006, 07:58 PM »
Thank You LoneWolf for your undying commitment to our sport and the product insight/research you provide ;)

-Grizz

Offline Walltrout

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #2 on: Dec 05, 2006, 10:48 AM »
Thanks for the info.  Being fairly new to using 2-cycle engines, this answered some of the questions I had.

Waltrout

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Offline Zee

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #3 on: Dec 07, 2006, 10:23 AM »
I am a huge fan of Opti-2 at 100:1. Less smoke, higher revs.

Offline LoneWolf

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #4 on: Dec 11, 2006, 05:48 PM »



Thank you Grizz .. I just try to help when I can.  :)

I am a huge fan of Opti-2 at 100:1. Less smoke, higher revs.

I originally used the Opti-2 a few years back but switched to the Amsoil Saber. The Saber does the same .. less smoke, higher revs and less oil out of the muffler. I've used alot of the Amsoil products for years .. synthetic motor oil, gear oil, trans fluid, etc. and have found them to be a superior product so I decided to go with the Saber last season and I'm very happy with it.


 
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Offline akdg

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #5 on: Dec 11, 2006, 06:05 PM »
There's some good info!  Makes alot of sense the way they explained it.  Thanks for the lesson LW!

Offline comp

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #6 on: Dec 15, 2006, 05:43 AM »
So basically, with todays synthetics we can easily take an old engine that requires a 24:1 ratio and run a 50:1 in that engine with the proper lubrication?

Offline LoneWolf

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #7 on: Dec 15, 2006, 06:01 AM »
So basically, with todays synthetics we can easily take an old engine that requires a 24:1 ratio and run a 50:1 in that engine with the proper lubrication?

Yes you could run 50:1, 75:1 or 100:1 in an older engine that originally required 25:1 as long as the oil states it can be ran at those ratios.. It should rev higher, have less smoke and less oil coming from the muffler.



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Offline comp

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #8 on: Dec 15, 2006, 06:14 AM »
Thanks Lonewolf!!!  Last year I run AMS Oil at 50:1 and noticed the revs increase and less smoke.  I was afraid of not enough lube, as you now the saying" it runs the best just before she blows".

Offline bushbunny

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #9 on: Dec 15, 2006, 06:33 AM »
I have run Opti2 at 100:1 in my 20 year old Tanaka engine for at least 15 years.  It revs between 7 & 8000 rpm.  The manual calls for a 25:1 blend.  Like Lonewolf says, current technology provides the required lubrication at a far leaner ratio.

Offline oldken

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #10 on: Dec 15, 2006, 07:28 AM »
i ran 50;1 oil in my old strikemaster auger and blew up the engine?????????? the oil was sold under the
huskavarna name

Offline LoneWolf

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #11 on: Dec 15, 2006, 07:39 AM »
i ran 50;1 oil in my old strikemaster auger and blew up the engine?????????? the oil was sold under the
huskavarna name

Are you sure the oil was rated 50:1 or higher ? If it was a standard 24:1 oil it would have been too lean. Also the engine could have had problems not even related to the oil or ratio you were using.
Keep in mind that if the engine has existing problems the newer oils aren't going to fix them ... these are not miracle oils.




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Offline Walltrout

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #12 on: Dec 15, 2006, 03:22 PM »
... these are not miracle oils.



Where can I get some of these miracle oils you are talking about.  I have some things that need fixin.

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Offline gamefisher

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #13 on: Dec 15, 2006, 04:46 PM »
If you do choose to deviate from what the product tells you, (ie an old Jiffy at 24/1) and are just not sure, pull your plug and have a look.  Should be a nice tan color, if it's white, you've got problems and are too lean.

Offline mech12

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #14 on: Dec 21, 2006, 08:43 AM »
  just curious as to what happened to my post yesterday

Offline WalkOnWater

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #15 on: Dec 25, 2006, 06:26 PM »
I just ordered some Amsoil Saber. My question is about break in. Do I need to break the motor in with regular oil or can I start out with the Saber. I see a lot of posts about starting out with regular oil and then switching. If the oil is better wouldn't it also be ok for break in. Possibly break it in at 50 to 1.

Offline LoneWolf

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #16 on: Dec 26, 2006, 08:48 AM »

When I had contacted Amsoil with this question last year they had replied that I could use the Amsoil at 100:1 immediately. They said that wear is going to occur eventually because of moving parts so the myth about breaking in the engines parts, seating the valves and the rings is just a myth. If anything you are protecting the engine sooner which is a good thing.
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trapperdirk

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #17 on: Dec 26, 2006, 10:13 AM »
I started my new Nils off on the Opti 2 at the regular mixture of 100-1 . Might be a tad richer but I personally didn't buy into all the talk of seating rings blah blah blah using regular oil either . I honestly can't say either way though but if the stuff is good why bother using the other stuff first . ???

                           TD

Offline Waubay Fisher

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #18 on: Dec 26, 2006, 10:44 PM »
I started my new Nils off on the Opti 2 at the regular mixture of 100-1 . Might be a tad richer but I personally didn't buy into all the talk of seating rings blah blah blah using regular oil either . I honestly can't say either way though but if the stuff is good why bother using the other stuff first . ???

                           TD

I read this post and another one like it and it really made me wonder why I didn't do the exact same thing?  ??? I broke mine in using the regular Jiffy oil figuring since it was 'natural' it would be a better break-in.  After the first full tank of that I switched to Opti2 and haven't gone back since.  I guess that is what happens when you believe everything you read and a guy doesn't do a little research on his own too.

My next question would be is I wonder if I had broken-in with Opti-2 or Amisol versus natural, if my performance/max life on the powerhead would be increased by having started with a good synthetic?  My guess is it wouldn't matter a whole lot.  Maybe a lot less smoke/exhaust fumes the first go around??  Any other takers on this?

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #19 on: Dec 28, 2006, 01:27 AM »
I read this post and another one like it and it really made me wonder why I didn't do the exact same thing?  ??? I broke mine in using the regular Jiffy oil figuring since it was 'natural' it would be a better break-in.  After the first full tank of that I switched to Opti2 and haven't gone back since.  I guess that is what happens when you believe everything you read and a guy doesn't do a little research on his own too.

My next question would be is I wonder if I had broken-in with Opti-2 or Amisol versus natural, if my performance/max life on the powerhead would be increased by having started with a good synthetic?  My guess is it wouldn't matter a whole lot.  Maybe a lot less smoke/exhaust fumes the first go around??  Any other takers on this?


I'll take that one on WF .

 My jiffy always had the other oils run through it till I found out about Opti2 and Amsoil . It ran good for those years but now it just rocks and roars like it has another life on steriods.

 I won't see it in my day or lift time that it burns out even though I used other oils in it for some years before but lots will have to do because I switched to OPTI 2  now. I won't go through plugs ,pull cords ,carb jobs etc that I may have if I didn't switch but thats my thoughts.

 My Nils starting off got Opti 2 and Amsoil will do same and it will outlive me even if I can still fire her up at 100 yrs old . I'm that confident in those mixtures of these oil additives . All my rigging has perked up that much more once I switched and no smoke or oil residue at exhaust either . 100-1 sounds scary but heah all you need to do is run this additive and you will know . Theres a reason even my baby spitfire john deere has it in the tank and its a free air sled and collectors item and mint..I dont own a two stroke that doesn't have it in the tank and I like one mix does all . I do all out of ONE and the same can .

 I think I switched 3 years or more ago and my small motors don't ever sound like they are labouring and just run SSSSSSSSSMMMMMOOOOOOOO OOOTH .

                                        TD

Offline ice dawg

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #20 on: Dec 28, 2006, 07:11 AM »
I used to use mixes of 24-1, 32-1. 40-1, and 50-1 for all the 2 strokes that I own. Now I use 100-1 in all of them and I have an over abundance of gas cans in my garage and my wife will be confused for ever.  ::) I have a friend that is a mechanic and he says there is really no such thing as breaking an engine in. He says they are wearing out from the first time that you start them and all you can help them do is wear out the right way. Makes sense to me. They used to say that synthetic oils are too slippery to let rings seat right, but there are lots of manufacturers that ship new engines with synthetic oil. My new outboard has been running a synthetic blend since day one and that is what the factory recommends.
It seems to go from zero to hero all some have to do is lie.

Offline Waubay Fisher

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #21 on: Dec 28, 2006, 07:59 AM »
I'll take that one on WF .

 My jiffy always had the other oils run through it till I found out about Opti2 and Amsoil . It ran good for those years but now it just rocks and roars like it has another life on steriods.

 I won't see it in my day or lift time that it burns out even though I used other oils in it for some years before but lots will have to do because I switched to OPTI 2  now. I won't go through plugs ,pull cords ,carb jobs etc that I may have if I didn't switch but thats my thoughts.

 My Nils starting off got Opti 2 and Amsoil will do same and it will outlive me even if I can still fire her up at 100 yrs old . I'm that confident in those mixtures of these oil additives . All my rigging has perked up that much more once I switched and no smoke or oil residue at exhaust either . 100-1 sounds scary but heah all you need to do is run this additive and you will know . Theres a reason even my baby spitfire john deere has it in the tank and its a free air sled and collectors item and mint..I dont own a two stroke that doesn't have it in the tank and I like one mix does all . I do all out of ONE and the same can .

 I think I switched 3 years or more ago and my small motors don't ever sound like they are labouring and just run SSSSSSSSSMMMMMOOOOOOOO OOOTH .

                                        TD

I figured it wouldn't make a whole lot of difference, based on your opinion maybe mine is right.  One thing is for sure, I definitely won't use nothing but Opti2 anymore.  I hardly have any oil spit, same with exhaust.  I do still get that smell and what not a little bit, but not near as bad and I don't have to deal with that white smoke at least.  I can't remember if mine ran poorer performance wise with the natural mix when I first got it or not.  All I remember is it was brand new and she got the job done QUICK :).  I do know that right now my auger does run nice and smooth, especially after I just adjusted the idle a little bit.  Opti-2, YOU GOT THE RIGHT ONE BAAABBBBYYYY!!!  ;D ;D ;D

I used to use mixes of 24-1, 32-1. 40-1, and 50-1 for all the 2 strokes that I own. Now I use 100-1 in all of them and I have an over abundance of gas cans in my garage and my wife will be confused for ever.  ::) I have a friend that is a mechanic and he says there is really no such thing as breaking an engine in. He says they are wearing out from the first time that you start them and all you can help them do is wear out the right way. Makes sense to me. They used to say that synthetic oils are too slippery to let rings seat right, but there are lots of manufacturers that ship new engines with synthetic oil. My new outboard has been running a synthetic blend since day one and that is what the factory recommends.

Bob, I've read somewhere the same that you commented too - as far as people used to believe synthetics didn't help to break in right.  Maybe that was something I read here awhile back?  I can't remember, point being I remember reading it somewhere  ;D.  I think with all the manufacturers shipping motors with them now that it proves they're a safe bet.  BTW - I'm heading out shortly to go fishing  ;D


Offline sled-in

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #22 on: Dec 28, 2006, 01:01 PM »
This sounds like a infomercal with all these testmonials ;D, opti2- it comes in a tube right? how big of a batch of gas do you have to mix?

Offline ice dawg

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #23 on: Dec 28, 2006, 02:35 PM »
I buy Amsoil Saber Professional 100-1 in an 8 oz bottle and they have it at NAPA stores or can get it for you. I usually mix two gallons at a time.
It seems to go from zero to hero all some have to do is lie.

Offline bushbunny

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #24 on: Dec 28, 2006, 07:18 PM »
Both Opti2 & Amsoil Sabre come in "pillow paks" that mix one US gallon, or in Canada 5 litres.  No infomercials, but reality from us old folk, who have been there and done that. ;) ;D  Trapper, the "rice rocket" should make a scared badger look slow when it comes to digging, EH!!!  ;)

Offline Fishin Fireman

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #25 on: Jan 02, 2007, 02:33 PM »
When I first bought my Eskimo last year I was using the strikemaster smokeless @ 24:1 ??? (Tecumseh's oil ratio recommendation in the Eskimo manual) When I took my machine in for some warranty work this fall, they found the cylinder was scorred and not the piston. The first question they asked at the repair shop was "what kind of oil are you using"? I told them it was the strikemaster but then swithed to the Tanaka later on. I got a whole new engine from Tecumseh and they guys at the repair shop said Tanaka was really good and I should run the mix with the Tanaka oil @50:1 I still get some oil out the exhaust but not many people are running their augers at extreme temperatures like we do.

Brad
   



Offline fish_boy

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #26 on: Jan 28, 2007, 02:41 PM »
Does any one know where I can find Opti2 & Amsoil Sabre oil up in the Toronto, Ontario area?

Thanks

Offline LoneWolf

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #27 on: Feb 05, 2007, 07:39 AM »

There seems to be alot of questions regarding these two cycle oil products. Although I'm not an engineer I did research both products about a year and a half ago.
Both these products achieve the same goal but thru different methods. They both reduce smoke and oil out the exhaust. They both produce higher revving engines and protect engine parts. They both allow a standard mix of down to 100:1 . The way in which they achieve this is where they differ.

According to Paul at Lube International (Opti 2 .. about a year ago) they work on a molecular level. They use a regular oil with additives that are supposed to molecularly adhere with the moving parts. As the high friction parts get hot and deform the additives are supposed to adhere and then when the parts cool return to their original shape.

According to Amsoil the Saber product works from a sythetic base stock oil. This oil has a much higher flash point, a much lower pour point and keeps moving parts properly lubed. This synthetic base stock oil keeps a film or barrier in between moving parts to prevent friction and at the same time providing lubrication. Again this comes down to a molecular level of lubrication.


Again I'm not a scientist or engineer. I obtained these " simplified " explanations from the manufacturers.



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Offline Wolf Point

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #28 on: Feb 19, 2007, 09:01 AM »
Where can I get Opti-2 and Opti-4 in a "user friendly" quantity  ;D, something less that a lifetime supply. Everywhere I spot it on web it is being sold in the gallon+ quantity.  ???
Wolf Point


Offline bushbunny

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Re: Proper gas for small engines!
« Reply #29 on: Feb 19, 2007, 08:36 PM »
Google Interlube International.  You will get a toll free number and they will inform you of your nearest supplier.  The "pillowpaks" that do a gallon at a time are the best, because then you always have fresh fuel.  You can also get a 2 gallon pillowpak.

 



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