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Author Topic: The war on warm water species continues.  (Read 4057 times)

Offline Wenger

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Offline wingnutty

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #1 on: Mar 22, 2019, 06:13 PM »
In this case I would say good, kill them.  The damage they would potentially do to the financially valuable trout fishery would be beyond repair.  I love smallmouth, they have their place, but that place should be where they are permanently entrenched, not in isolated pockets surrounded by world-class trout fisheries.  A few small ponds within an otherwise trout-dominated valley are a good place to snuff out a source of potential contamination.

This is not a case of war on warmwater species...it is a case of war on bucket biologists!

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #2 on: Mar 22, 2019, 06:33 PM »
If you look at the bigger picture is indeed a continuation of the FWP war on warm water species.  How a government agency can simply assume someone will plant them in the Lower Madison is beyond me.  Yes this is a private pond, and they have the authority to do what they want to an extent.  But guess what, they are the same people who stocked Three Forks Ponds with bass a few hundred yards from the Lower Madison.  It is the same agency that waged war on walleyes on several Montana waters which have turned into massive economic engines locally. 

If someone really wanted bass in the Lower there are many places from which to get a few. 

I used to guide on the Lower a lot, and we are talking about perhaps twenty miles max that are even viable trout habitat, and even that is closed because it gets far too far by June most years.  This is not a excuse for bucket biology, but rather against the current mindset in Helena.

Offline FinalSwim

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #3 on: Mar 22, 2019, 11:31 PM »
Protecting non native fish from non native fish? 

Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #4 on: Mar 23, 2019, 09:06 AM »
in some places it is a war on warm water species.look what fwp did to the mighty mo. walleye below holter dam to cascade no limit.if that is not a effort to remove walleye from that area of the river i dont know what is.money talks it made the outfitters happy.
fish till it hurts then fish some more

Offline KDW

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #5 on: Mar 23, 2019, 09:24 AM »
  I am always amazed at the arrogance of FWP fishing experts who think they can actually control all things water
related. If it is going to happen its going to happen. The outdoors are way bigger and more complex then they will
ever realize. Am sure one could bring a bucket of bad fish home from Peck just as easy as River Rock. I personally
hope no one would ever do it but it would not be that hard. The next war will be when they tell us we can no longer
trap minnows for bait because we are not smart enough to know what we are doing.

Ken

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #6 on: Mar 23, 2019, 09:31 AM »
Protecting non native fish from non native fish?

Indeed.  A great point.

Offline PerchPounderMT

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #7 on: Mar 23, 2019, 11:20 AM »
Protecting non native fish from non native fish?
Thats exactly what they are doing.
Dont ask

Offline Cheddar dog

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #8 on: Mar 23, 2019, 11:21 AM »
If they want to protect the water from invasive things....get rid of the fishing guides. They’ve impacted the waters more than anything. 😂😂😂

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #9 on: Mar 23, 2019, 02:32 PM »
If they want to protect the water from invasive things....get rid of the fishing guides. They’ve impacted the waters more than anything. 😂😂😂

In what manner?  Clients catching too many fish?  I don't understand this sportsman on sportsman violence.... ???

Offline monk38

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #10 on: Mar 23, 2019, 03:12 PM »
i never thought about the three forks ponds... that is a very good point.  When did FWP put them in there? they could almost jump in the madison from there.

Offline REDin13

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #11 on: Mar 23, 2019, 05:36 PM »
another example of the lack of consistency in a management plan. yes, its replacing a non-native with another non-native. if you look at the states stocking plan, it allows stocking non-native fish within a drainage that already contains that non-native. but should it to continue be done? what about using cutthroat instead of rainbow? and what of the east gallatin rec area pond. it contains several non-native fish and is very close to the gallatin river. will this pond be next?

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #12 on: Mar 23, 2019, 05:39 PM »
Agree 100%. 

Offline meandcuznalfy

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #13 on: Mar 23, 2019, 06:12 PM »
another example of the lack of consistency in a management plan. yes, its replacing a non-native with another non-native. if you look at the states stocking plan, it allows stocking non-native fish within a drainage that already contains that non-native. but should it to continue be done? what about using cutthroat instead of rainbow? and what of the east gallatin rec area pond. it contains several non-native fish and is very close to the gallatin river. will this pond be next?
Could be, surprised they haven't done it yet.

Offline KDW

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #14 on: Mar 23, 2019, 08:45 PM »
 I don't understand this sportsman on sportsman violence.


      100 percent correct, the one thing we don't need is fishing guys picking at fishing guys. The outdoors are to rich
and amazing to be explored only the way I want it.

Ken

Offline fridayfish

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #15 on: Mar 24, 2019, 11:51 AM »
In what manner?  Clients catching too many fish?  I don't understand this sportsman on sportsman violence.... ???

did you miss the 3 smiley faces after his comment? not exactly violence. that being said are you confused on the impact of heavy numbers of fishing guides?
 eyesores on the water. relentless pressure on the fish. guides sell fishing opportunities for cash. fisherman should have to find there own fish like everyone else. should the rich catch more fish than the good? doesn't seem right to me.

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #16 on: Mar 24, 2019, 01:52 PM »
Not confused at all...but you seem pretty tense.  The term violence was not to be taken literally obviously. 

Firstly it seems you have no idea that guides provide a service for those fellow sportsmen  who can't or do not want to fish on their own.  Those fellow sportsmen have just as much right to fish as you do, even if they are elderly, novices or evil "rich" folks.

 An eyesore?  What exactly do you mean? Yes I was perhaps the ugliest guide on the river but was never called an eyesore! ::)

Pressure on the fish. Given the nature of fish if they are pressured they don't eat.  Seems to me they eat just fine if you claim clients catch all the fish.  The key is knowing how to catch them, guides do this they are guides.  I can't tell you how many flies and advice I gave away on the river while guiding when someone asked what what was working.  You know all those boat ramps and access points?  Guides pay for them as well as for all the permits...they subsidize your fishing. In twenty years of guiding I know of six instances in which guides saved others from drowning, including one gal I pulled out of sweeper after her mini pontoon was sucked into it.  I nearly lost my own life doing so and she was half drowned.  Those folks all were pretty happy to have guides on the river that day.


Sorry you have a problem with the well to do, jealousy, capitalism and the opportunity to succeed in the USA.  Ask anyone in Ennis, Craig, Fort Smith or Livingston where those economies would be if not for fly fishing guides. Ask folks like Kibbler's  or Clint how they would make ends meet if not for guiding on Peck?  You want to tell them to their faces that they are ruining your fishing? 

Can you explain just how guided clients have ruined fishing for you? Please, I am seriously curious.

That is what I was talking about.


Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #17 on: Mar 24, 2019, 02:59 PM »
wenger what about the to many drift boats on the water that you can hardly motor up river and waiting for the long line outfitter drift boats to put in before you can take your boat out. outfitting has spoiled the upper mo forever. also you might not be a eye sore but all those boats sure are.
fish till it hurts then fish some more

Offline Born Late

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #18 on: Mar 24, 2019, 03:08 PM »
You know all those boat ramps and access points?  Guides pay for them as well as for all the permits...they subsidize your fishing...

Sorry you have a problem with the well to do, jealousy, capitalism and the opportunity to succeed in the USA.  Ask anyone in Ennis, Craig, Fort Smith or Livingston where those economies would be if not for fly fishing guides.

Puh-leeeease. Please share with the group what you paid annually for “all the permits” to utilize a public resource for your income. A guide license and annual FAS permit is available for an effin pittance.

The economies in the aforementioned towns are what they are because of the trout, not trout guides. Someone’s pretty full of himself.
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #19 on: Mar 24, 2019, 03:52 PM »
I'm full of myself eh?  For making a reasonable response to people who have no idea what they are talking about IMO?

Those towns depend on guiding wether you like it or not.  Outfitting contributes more to the MT economy than cattle. That means thousands and thousands of jobs outside of guiding. When the Yellowstone was shut down for two months a few years back it caused a declared economic disaster for Livingston with a multi million dollar hit for hotels, restaurants, shuttle drivers...you name it.  It cost people their jobs.  Recently when FWP held hearing about restricting guide trips on the Upper Madison the businessmen in town of Ennis testified it would have a very hurtful effect on their town.

$100 bucks for the public use permits, $300 bucks for my outfitter license, $100 buck each for my guides. Madison permits, Big Hole. Beaverhead permits etc.  Then there is the pile of paperwork required. Anything else you want to know?

You do understand that it is the clients who fish, and they have exactly the same rights to do so as you do wether they can row a boat or not or if they want to learn to fish or  not.  Stop being so selfish. Your sense of self entitlement as to who you do not want to share our waters with is just plain wrong. That or have the balls to get in the face of every guide you meet on the river...I know that you would not.

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #20 on: Mar 24, 2019, 04:06 PM »
wenger what about the to many drift boats on the water that you can hardly motor up river and waiting for the long line outfitter drift boats to put in before you can take your boat out. outfitting has spoiled the upper mo forever. also you might not be a eye sore but all those boats sure are.

Oh trust me I am an eyesore! ;D

Not sure which part of the "upper" MO you are speaking of (Craig or Toston?)  but I never had to wait at any access for more than few boats, other than a few times when rafters had all their gear spread on the ramp and were trying to figure out how to pump up their boat. Seriously, besides the dam access when the water is super high and the Dearborn is dumping there are not huge lines at any access.  I used to guide on the Bighorn a lot, and the upper 13 miles gets more boat traffic than any water in the state, and even taking the wait is not more than a few trailers. Even so if it is busy the guides and their clients don't jump the line nor are they slow. (And they actually can back a trailer!) ;D

Have you seen how many tubers and rec floaters there are on a hot summer day on the MO, floating through trico pods and screwing up the fishing? Well guides understand they also have a right to enjoy the river and work around them.  You also need to recognize that 20 years ago not that many people had drift boats, there was very little weekender traffic on most rivers. Now every Tom, Dick and Harry has a drift boat or raft and the traffic on the Yellowstone has quadrupled.  Carters Bridge at Livingston is so full of non guide boats on weekends the parking is up and down the road all the way to 89S and fills the loop road on the West side across the bridge. Same for Pine Creek, 89N, Springdale and Grey Owl. You won't hear guides complaining about that either, they work around it.     

Claiming the Mo is ruined forever is a stretch.  It is like Yogi Berra saying "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded".   

Offline Born Late

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #21 on: Mar 24, 2019, 04:33 PM »

$100 bucks for the public use permits, $300 bucks for my outfitter license, $100 buck each for my guides. Madison permits, Big Hole. Beaverhead permits etc. Anything else you want to know?

Yep. How much you did you pay annually for commercial float permits on the rivers you mentioned?
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #22 on: Mar 24, 2019, 05:02 PM »
wenger, below holter. the last time(and i mean the last time i sold my boat after that) there were 18 drift boats between the campground below the dam and prickly pear creek. that is a bit much. they have turned it into basically into drift boats only. i do not care how much money outfitting brings in my fishing time on the river was priceless. and by the way they have infested the river down to cascade.
fish till it hurts then fish some more

Offline PerchPounderMT

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #23 on: Mar 25, 2019, 08:26 AM »
wenger what about the to many drift boats on the water that you can hardly motor up river and waiting for the long line outfitter drift boats to put in before you can take your boat out. outfitting has spoiled the upper mo forever. also you might not be a eye sore but all those boats sure are.
Lets not forget them posting up right above our decoys on a regular basis,morons see your deeks,hear you shooting and then act like they are being done wrong after they anchor and start fishing within 100 yards of your spread.The problem is that they think the river was put there for their monetary gain and nothing more.
Dont ask

Offline Mizayikaa

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #24 on: Mar 26, 2019, 09:53 PM »
   Outfitting contributes more to the MT economy than cattle.
$100 bucks for the public use permits, $300 bucks for my outfitter license, $100 buck each for my guides. Madison permits, Big Hole. Beaverhead permits etc.  Then there is the pile of paperwork required. Anything else you want to know?

Like to be a fly on the wall of any ranchers house that read this. Hope that $400 + per didn't harm your business too bad. What an f-ing joke.
"Do not tell fish stories where the people know you...but particularly, don't tell them where they know the fish."    S.C.

Offline missoulafish

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #25 on: Mar 27, 2019, 12:32 AM »
I'd rather have a state full of cows...

Offline Cornbread

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #26 on: Mar 27, 2019, 09:12 AM »
Outfitting doesn't contribute to anywhere even close to what the state brings in from livestock. Montana's agriculture and livestock industry brought in just under 4 billion a year in revenue to the state in 2015. 2.1 billion of that is livestock alone. In 2017 guided trips brought in 791 million dollars. That's still OVER A BILLION dollars less than what the livestock industry alone brings in, and it is OVER THREE BILLION less than what livestock plus ag brings in. The guided trips figure includes: rafting, kayaking, fishing, horseback riding, hiking, hunting, wildlife viewing, outdoor ed, backpacking, and photography. If you want to just include fishing and hunting it is far less than that. The statement that the outfitting industry brings in more revenue than livestock in Montana is so far out of the ballpark it isn't even on the same planet.

https://agr.mt.gov/AgFacts

https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1376&context=itrr_pubs

Offline fridayfish

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #27 on: Mar 27, 2019, 03:44 PM »
Not confused at all...but you seem pretty tense.  The term violence was not to be taken literally obviously. 

Firstly it seems you have no idea that guides provide a service for those fellow sportsmen  who can't or do not want to fish on their own.  Those fellow sportsmen have just as much right to fish as you do, even if they are elderly, novices or evil "rich" folks.

 An eyesore?  What exactly do you mean? Yes I was perhaps the ugliest guide on the river but was never called an eyesore! ::)

Pressure on the fish. Given the nature of fish if they are pressured they don't eat.  Seems to me they eat just fine if you claim clients catch all the fish.  The key is knowing how to catch them, guides do this they are guides.  I can't tell you how many flies and advice I gave away on the river while guiding when someone asked what what was working.  You know all those boat ramps and access points?  Guides pay for them as well as for all the permits...they subsidize your fishing. In twenty years of guiding I know of six instances in which guides saved others from drowning, including one gal I pulled out of sweeper after her mini pontoon was sucked into it.  I nearly lost my own life doing so and she was half drowned.  Those folks all were pretty happy to have guides on the river that day.


Sorry you have a problem with the well to do, jealousy, capitalism and the opportunity to succeed in the USA.  Ask anyone in Ennis, Craig, Fort Smith or Livingston where those economies would be if not for fly fishing guides. Ask folks like Kibbler's  or Clint how they would make ends meet if not for guiding on Peck?  You want to tell them to their faces that they are ruining your fishing? 

Can you explain just how guided clients have ruined fishing for you? Please, I am seriously curious.

That is what I was talking about.
settle down there Wenger. you're seeming the one tense here. and you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I realize guides and client are just trying to live they're dream like the rest of us. its just different from the fishing that I know...no doubt clients come in all shapes and sizes and some are worse than others. just like the guides.

"Firstly it seems you have no idea that guides provide a service for those fellow sportsmen  who can't or do not want to fish on their own."... it does?...

"Pressure on the fish. Given the nature of fish if they are pressured they don't eat." ... well this is part of the point. how am I supposed to catch them if their not eating? how will they grow up to be big and strong? this is part of the impact.

"Can you explain just how guided clients have ruined fishing for you? "...  I did,and "ruined" is a strong word. its just getting harder and harder to get out on the river and enjoy the solitude before here come yet another. and of coarse I have to smile and say hi hows it going? again. I like to see 1 or 2 and 3 is ok. but eventually enough is enough. its not solitude anymore. see?
now I am going to say something that might be upsetting...in a way being a guide is like being a sell out. in a way you let down your fellow sportsman when you sell these "opportunities" or information, or "secrets" that most sportsman work there whole life to build...for money. its different from teaching your kids or sharing with friends..."in a way". sorry if that hurts. I didn't really want to have to say it. I actually feel terrible about it. I know its not really fair to blame the guides when there are just more fishermen then there used to be but guiding seems that much worse because of it. oh well.

but really I don't hate guides or the clients. I probably have as much or more in common with them as with anybody.glad we got that cleared up. I almost started getting long winded...and good luck this summer living the dream.

Offline Born 2 Jig

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #28 on: Mar 28, 2019, 08:50 AM »
Wenger Quote:  "I'm full of myself eh?  For making a reasonable response to people who have no idea what they are talking about IMO? "

No...you are full of yourself for making comments like this...

"Outfitting contributes more to the MT economy than cattle."

Probably the most ignorant comment I've ever heard!  :o

...and as far as telling guides to their face how I feel about them? No problem. As long as you tell every rancher you see that same line about how outfitting is more important than raising livestock.

Offline Doeslayer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #29 on: Mar 28, 2019, 09:04 AM »
This has got to be the most ignorant thread I've ever seen....  Go catch a fish and quit arguing like teenage girls....
Catch and release, into the grease!
"gotta be somebody needs some killin" ~ Major Payne

 



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