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Author Topic: Bull Trout Stocking  (Read 1288 times)

Offline RuralMT

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #30 on: Feb 07, 2019, 05:59 PM »
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I advocate that the Bull Trout is not an endangered species, it is being used as a way to eradicate other non-native species just because there is a cynical group that feels that all streams, rivers and lakes in the West and mountains should be reverted back to total natural environments for their fishing pleasure.

I'm glad you said it!  I'd love to see one of those fellas make the native-only argument to say...oh I dunno...a native?

I agree though.  It's effectively a perpetual excuse to regulate and control.  And you're spot-on regarding the ratio of fish pulled from Koocanusa.  I've fished it fairly regularly since I've been up here and I've yet to catch or see a rainbow landed, but have caught and released plenty of bulls. 

Offline RuralMT

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #31 on: Feb 08, 2019, 10:23 PM »
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His manager said they don't generally stock brook trout west of the Divide because they will interbreed with bull trout. The former fisheries manager said "Did you ever hear the one about the horse and the barn door?"

My apologies on not commenting on this earlier WooleyBigger, but holy cow this hits at the crux of my argument.  Did he really say that?!?  If folks in the FWP really think this regarding bull trout then holy hell are we wasting a lot of money.  (In case the rest of the readers aren't aware, that's a reference to trying an obvious solution after it's too late).

And folks, I'm sorry to keep this post alive but this is absolutely something every license-holding Montana angler should be considering.  If you haven't connected the dots, there's been several highly-viewed posts as of late regarding the management of our resources.  (Canyon Ferry/Upper Missouri River, trout stocking in Eastern Montana, the war on Noxon's walleye, etc.)  Your money is being spent by others...don't you want a say in how it's spent?

Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #32 on: Feb 10, 2019, 12:50 AM »
 just cause you can't  catch and eat a certain species to your liking..you wanna destroy 1000's of years of natural balance...the short sided blah blah about bull trout...is ludicrous...PRISTINE streams ..keep clean....I don't want to hear your spiel bout the gov..did this or that...native species deserve repect ..no matter fish ..insects..,trees..or plants....just cause you don't wanna eat it...f off..its a part of a balanced ecosystem..,.open your eyes...and try not being so self serving and viewing the world how it somehow makes your own world better...jokes on you..all the  crap you b***h about is your own judgement....and  in the end..will be your own demise...fish out with cawk out...

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #33 on: Feb 10, 2019, 08:31 AM »
Motivation for TU is well documented.  They are funded by ultra left wing environmental extremist.
https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/trout-unlimited/

While Trout Unlimited began as a conservationist organization and presents itself as such, changes in leadership and foundation funding have seen it move towards the anti-business environmentalist position. TU makes efforts to stall and block development of America’s mineral resources, running a well-funded campaign against mining in Alaska and pushing over-burdensome regulation of natural gas extraction in Pennsylvania. TU also endorsed the highly controversial “cap-and-trade” proposal before Congress.   ;D

If they have their way, eventually all non-native fish species will be eradicated and you need a expensive stamp, by draw or lottery, to have the opportunity to fish.  Unless you are a licensed guided and member of the organization.

The Canadians don't realize yet.  If you look up the SARA and COSEWIC reports, they are attempting to list the most abundant trout, (Bull Trout) in Canada as a species of concern, COSEWIC trying to list it as endangered.  From BC to the East and all the way up to the Northwest Territories and beyond.

In Vermont, they are closing a rainbow trout hatchery, banned use of bait fishing in several areas, lowered the catch limits for Brook Trout and list areas flies and lures only, to save the native Brook Trout.  LOL.   In Montana, Idaho and Washington they want to wipe out the Brook trout among other species. Irony!  :roflmao:
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Offline Born Late

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #34 on: Feb 10, 2019, 09:14 AM »
In the interest of balance, it may be worth noting that CORE and the linked site, Activist “Facts”, are the creations of inside-the-Beltway professional smear campaign fabricator Dick (speaking of ironic) Berman.
https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/trashing-sportsmen-influence-spurs-smear-campaign/7712361
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #35 on: Feb 10, 2019, 09:20 AM »
Facts don't represent lies.  Funding sources are well documented no matter how you try to put a spin on the issue.  If you can prove otherwise, please do.  Here is a brief run down of the officers.



TU National President Christopher Wood has donated to Democratic Senatorial candidates and was a member of President Obama’s 2008 Department of Agriculture Transition Team. The Associated Press reported that Wood, a high-ranking policy staffer in the U.S. Forest Service during President Bill Clinton’s time in office, was initially favored to be President Obama’s nominee to head the USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service. Wood was reportedly denied the post because he was a registered lobbyist from 2002 through 2007. (Obama had pledged not to nominate lobbyists to government posts.)

TU’s Vice President for Western Conservation, Robert Masonis, previously worked for the environmentalist group American Rivers; TU’s head lobbyist, Steve Moyer, previously worked for the environmentalist National Wildlife Federation.

Trustee Walter Minnick served from 2009-2011 as a U.S. Representative from Idaho as a Democrat.

Trustee Kai Anderson is a lobbyist for Cassidy and Associates, representing several solar energy firms, the Pew Charitable Trusts, and the environmentalist Resources Legacy Fund. Before joining Cassidy, Anderson was Deputy Chief of Staff to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada.

Trustee Michael Dombeck was Director of the United States Forest Service during the Clinton administration; Wood was his communications aide.

Other trustees, including Nancy McKinnon, Valerie Colas-Ohrstrom, and Paul Doscher, have worked for or served on the boards of environmental groups including the Nature Conservancy, the Black Rock Forest Consortium, and the Society for the Protection of New Hampshire Forests.
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Offline Quantoson

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #36 on: Feb 10, 2019, 09:27 AM »
Forgot to mention, hatchmag.com is a fly fishing blog along with several environmental accents.  ::)
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Offline RuralMT

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #37 on: Feb 10, 2019, 10:05 AM »
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try not being so self serving and viewing the world how it somehow makes your own world better...jokes on you..all the  crap you b***h about is your own judgement.

With all due respect CCC, we live in a democratic republic in which our viewpoints are supposed to drive policy.  So yes, I will happily express my viewpoint when appropriate and will smile and point to the First Amendment in my defense.  You seem to imply that we must accept the viewpoints of those in power...I imagine Jefferson, Adams, Washington and the like would have something to say about that.  You call it a "spiel," I call it responsible citizenship. 

Quote
just cause you can't  catch and eat a certain species to your liking..you wanna destroy 1000's of years of natural balance

Please re-read my original post.  Not once did I advocate the destruction of "1000s of years of natural balance."  In fact, I wanted clarification regarding the protection of the bull trout and why our state's policies appear to be contradictory in that regard.  The post is literally about the stocking of bull trout after all.  And yes, I prefer to eat perch over rainbow, but again, you're woefully off-base regarding my palate.  I'm fortunate enough to live and fish in an area where we can harvest one bull a year and find them to be absolutely fantastic table fare.  I'd love for them to restored, I merely wanted to know why our approach to their restoration appears half-a**ed. 

Quote
f off..its a part of a balanced ecosystem...native species deserve repect
Your beloved Georgetown is plum full of non-native species.  Are you showing the natives "respect" by promoting the destruction of the kokanee, brook trout, and rainbows?

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #38 on: Feb 10, 2019, 10:21 AM »
With all due respect CCC, we live in a democratic republic in which our viewpoints are supposed to drive policy.  So yes, I will happily express my viewpoint when appropriate and will smile and point to the First Amendment in my defense.  You seem to imply that we must accept the viewpoints of those in power...I imagine Jefferson, Adams, Washington and the like would have something to say about that.  You call it a "spiel," I call it responsible citizenship. 

Please re-read my original post.  Not once did I advocate the destruction of "1000s of years of natural balance."  In fact, I wanted clarification regarding the protection of the bull trout and why our state's policies appear to be contradictory in that regard.  The post is literally about the stocking of bull trout after all.  And yes, I prefer to eat perch over rainbow, but again, you're woefully off-base regarding my palate.  I'm fortunate enough to live and fish in an area where we can harvest one bull a year and find them to be absolutely fantastic table fare.  I'd love for them to restored, I merely wanted to know why our approach to their restoration appears half-a**ed. 
Your beloved Georgetown is plum full of non-native species.  Are you showing the natives "respect" by promoting the destruction of the kokanee, brook trout, and rainbows?

Well put RuralMT.  Very diplomatic and to point.
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Offline Born Late

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #39 on: Feb 10, 2019, 10:42 AM »
Here is a brief run down of the officers.

TU National President Christopher Wood has donated to Democratic Senatorial candidates and was a member of President Obama’s 2008 Department of Agriculture Transition Team. The Associated Press reported that Wood, a high-ranking policy staffer in the U.S. Forest Service during President Bill Clinton’s time in office, was initially favored to be President Obama’s nominee to head the USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service. Wood was reportedly denied the post because he was a registered lobbyist from 2002 through 2007. (Obama had pledged not to nominate lobbyists to government posts.)

TU’s Vice President for Western Conservation, Robert Masonis, previously worked for the environmentalist group American Rivers; TU’s head lobbyist, Steve Moyer, previously worked for the environmentalist National Wildlife Federation.

Trustee Walter Minnick served from 2009-2011 as a U.S. Representative from Idaho as a Democrat.

Trustee Kai Anderson is a lobbyist for Cassidy and Associates, representing several solar energy firms, the Pew Charitable Trusts, and the environmentalist Resources Legacy Fund. Before joining Cassidy, Anderson was Deputy Chief of Staff to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Democrat of Nevada.

Trustee Michael Dombeck was Director of the United States Forest Service during the Clinton administration; Wood was his communications aide.

Other trustees, including Nancy McKinnon, Valerie Colas-Ohrstrom, and Paul Doscher, have worked for or served on the boards of environmental groups including the Nature Conservancy, the Black Rock Forest Consortium, and the Society for the Protection of New Hampshire Forests.

A conservation organization is comprised of and funded by people with experience in conservation, outdoor recreation and environmental activism? OMG...I’m SHOCKED.

Are you suggesting that those funding oil, gas, logging and mining interests in opposition to conservation are not employed by and/or invested in those industries? And, the latter is okay but the former is not?

YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #40 on: Feb 10, 2019, 10:54 AM »
A conservation organization is comprised of and funded by people with experience in conservation, outdoor recreation and environmental activism? OMG...I’m SHOCKED.

Are you suggesting that those funding oil, gas, logging and mining interests in opposition to conservation are not employed by and/or invested in those industries? And, the latter is okay but the former is not?

Spin it to please you.  I use real public docs and public disclosure facts which upsets members and administrators of TU and now shows the real intent behind TU.  TU is not interested in pleasurable outdoor experience for the public unless it has been transformed back into time 500 hundreds years.

TU is ultra liberal, supports environmental extremism.  You should read their lobbying records.  Even Obama thought that their efforts were too far left for his administration. 

 
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Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #41 on: Feb 10, 2019, 11:48 AM »
without getting into politics...which have been explained here very well by others.. my point was that each side of government has its own agenda and lobby and the manipulate the perception of the public to support the agenda no matter the side of the issue....my point is all life has meaning...in balance....my response about the bull trout was not based on political issues..just my opinion that life is needs to be respected..whether its rainbows.....bulls...p erch... we messed so much stuff up..no we have overpopulations of envasive species...management issues...yes the earth's resources are blessed..they build our homes and feed our families....but all needs to be harvested and viewed with the fact that its all connected and our actions matter....finally..... . i guess i could have initially said bull trout are fish too....apologies for that....being buzzed makes the words come out with a little added snark and without buffer...

Offline Quantoson

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #42 on: Feb 10, 2019, 12:09 PM »
without getting into politics...which have been explained here very well by others.. my point was that each side of government has its own agenda and lobby and the manipulate the perception of the public to support the agenda no matter the side of the issue....my point is all life has meaning...in balance....my response about the bull trout was not based on political issues..just my opinion that life is needs to be respected..whether its rainbows.....bulls...p erch... we messed so much stuff up..no we have overpopulations of envasive species...management issues...yes the earth's resources are blessed..they build our homes and feed our families....but all needs to be harvested and viewed with the fact that its all connected and our actions matter....finally..... . i guess i could have initially said bull trout are fish too....apologies for that....being buzzed makes the words come out with a little added snark and without buffer...

Understood coldcreekchris.  Passion for what you want and try to convey sometimes puts people on edge.  That's the fun part for me since I read 'How to Troll Like A Pro'.

The thing I don't understand is 'being buzzed'? ???  Where I'm at there isn't a fly, mosquito, bee or spider.  You may look into the Deet stuff.  Pretty good in the spring and summer here in Pondera County.

Cheers and Well Wishes!

Herb
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Offline Rosiepike

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #43 on: Feb 15, 2019, 11:22 PM »
This forum has gone from being a decent discussion into rambling rant. The initial question was a valid one, and the discussion that followed brought up the logical question of why bull stockings have not occurred. There are lakes where they would do quite well, and they would be awesome to catch through the ice, which brings up the next point. Why should we even try? Well, if you could catch a 10-20lb trout through the ice (on a regular basis), a fish which also happens to be the largest native salmonid in Montana (or the greater Northwest for that matter not counting anadromous fish), what would you do? Go catch 8'' perch? If FWP stocked bullies and they did well in a few select lakes and reservoirs with the right conditions (and people could fish for them), some of bull haters would stay off forums like this one. Why not stock them? See how they do.
And bulls and dollies are not the same fish, though they do look a lot alike and can be called the same thing! They are as different as a bull and a brookie!  Bulls have huge heads; dollies heads are way smaller. Dollies eat eggs and fry; bulls like meat! There are also anadromous bulls in Puget Sound as well as dollies, but I'd take a 20lb bull over a 3lb dollie any day! Let's stock 'em and see what happens.

Offline RuralMT

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Re: Bull Trout Stocking
« Reply #44 on: Feb 15, 2019, 11:42 PM »
I took it upon myself to have a conversation with a FWP biologist, friend, and fellow angler, and this is what he informed me.  Bull trout stocking is completely viable and currently in use throughout other regions of North America and isolated sections of Montana.  However, (and this was enlightening) bull trout can differ in genetics from one drainage to another, meaning the traits that favored survival in the Yaak drainage might differ from those that produced a viable population 40 miles east (say in the Tobacco drainage).  Thus, if you stock a bull with Yaak genetics in the Tobacco drainage, you introduce recessive genes that might hinder the success of the natives of the Tobacco.  (In my mind) This is a fantastic explanation as to why you don't stock random bull trout in Koocanusa Reservoir.  Furthermore, he informed me that Koocanusa's bull trout population is among the strongest in the world; stocking fish would be pointless/detrimental.

However, my friend's next statement keeps this thread alive; I asked him if stocking was to take place, what would be the criteria.  He informed me that to stock bull trout, you would need to stock the genetics native to that system...which, to me, meant that if you're going to stock Koocanusa, you need to collect eggs from fish that live in Koocanusa.  Makes perfect sense to me, but what doesn't make sense is why we're not sampling eggs from across the state and planting the eggs in the regions in which they're viable...say in the streams that feed their historical strongholds.

 



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