Author Topic: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry  (Read 2217 times)

Offline whitetips

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Daryl Bauer
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Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Offline FishGut

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #1 on: Feb 19, 2019, 02:09 PM »
Quote
Hackberry underwent renovation a few yrs ago

You sure?

You might be thinking of Pelican
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Offline whitetips

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #2 on: Feb 19, 2019, 02:52 PM »
I can appreciate the efforts of the ngpc but this doesn't seem to be a one time fix for generations of fishing. Hackberry underwent renovation a few yrs ago and now again? Sounds like the definition of stupidity. Mother nature always wins no matter how much my fishing permit costs. There are better ways to clean up carp infested waters. Please explain why  the last renovation at hackberry failed and why you believe it will be more effective this time.

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2018/11/renovations/

Daryl B.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Offline Jfarmer

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #3 on: Feb 20, 2019, 11:09 AM »
Reference to a web article is really not a good answer. A good answer takes us through the thinking of what's really out to be accomplished and the reaction if it's a failure. If the renovations don't work are we going to leave the lake empty as in the case of Willow lake in Brown County?   Let's face it there are no fish in that lake and no one is doing anything about it. So now we have a useless body of water that was once top 10. Is that the general rule from here on out. Why not concentrate on fixing past mistakes first and then proceed with more

Offline whitetips

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #4 on: Feb 20, 2019, 12:04 PM »
Reference to a web article is really not a good answer. A good answer takes us through the thinking of what's really out to be accomplished and the reaction if it's a failure. If the renovations don't work are we going to leave the lake empty as in the case of Willow lake in Brown County?   Let's face it there are no fish in that lake and no one is doing anything about it. So now we have a useless body of water that was once top 10. Is that the general rule from here on out. Why not concentrate on fixing past mistakes first and then proceed with more

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2017/12/dec-valentine/

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2017/12/valentine-national-wildlife-refuge-nwr-update/

Daryl B.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Offline Jfarmer

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #5 on: Feb 20, 2019, 12:43 PM »
Useless conversation as usual. Do what you want. I will urge people from everywhere to go now and stay ahead of this process. Enjoy the fishing and limit releases and the area while you can. NGP is above any accountability for anything that happens anyway.

Offline FishGut

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #6 on: Feb 20, 2019, 03:12 PM »
A good conversation requires you to be somewhat versed in the subject yourself. Please read the articles that Whitetips presented. You'll find your answers there.

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Offline Jfarmer

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #7 on: Feb 20, 2019, 03:51 PM »
I have read those numerous times but thanks for pointing that out

Offline marknpanfish

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #8 on: Feb 22, 2019, 06:44 AM »
 Daryl what the deal at Willow Lake in Brown county. I was looking forward to fishing it after the renovation. I know some good fisherman that have tried with no luck.

Offline alanderson

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #9 on: Feb 22, 2019, 09:44 AM »
jfarmer, you have the same impression a lot of us do. You won't get an engaging conversation from the NGP, its always a reference to an article,that refers to a survey, that refers to a stocking report etc. There is no accountability for all of the failed fisheries attempts at re-vitalizing a lake. This has a trickle down effect to bait shops, lodges, and rental properties that they aren't too concerned with either. To repeat the same thing over and over and expect a different result is moronic.

Offline whitetips

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #10 on: Feb 22, 2019, 12:33 PM »
Daryl what the deal at Willow Lake in Brown county. I was looking forward to fishing it after the renovation. I know some good fisherman that have tried with no luck.

We have sampled some good fish at Willow in the past couple of years including walleyes.  However, the reports I hear from anglers there have all been the same--nada, nothing, not even seeing fish.  I do not know what is going on there right now.  We know that there are carp present, and we know that cormorants can have significant impacts on fish populations in some of those lakes, but I do not know what has happened.  When we know more, we will pass that along.

By they way, the fishery at Willow was completely dominated by black bullheads and common carp when it was renovated.  If you wish we could have left it at that, or we could have renovated and tried to make it better.  Our job is to make fishing better and that is what we will do.

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2013/09/willow-lake-renovation/

Oh, and something else for the detractors to think about, there are plenty of fisheries right now where the fishing is excellent, fisheries that were renovated, and most of you are fishing them!

Daryl B.

Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Offline Unclegillhunter

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #11 on: Feb 22, 2019, 04:49 PM »
To anyone not from Nebraska who reads this tread. There is a fairly small group of folks in this state that feel that the NGPC is out to ruin the resources of this state. Now the links in this thread were posted on another forum. Didnít see them arguing on that site, At least not using there user names from this site. There are great fishing options in this state and the NGPC works as hard as they can with resources they are given! You donít like what they ar doing? Get involved contact your representative go to the meetings and voice your opinion. Now if yíall have done that sorry for suggesting something you have already done. If you are really looking to change things good luck and go for it, Sorry for the rant!
Keep it safe! JDL

Offline marknpanfish

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #12 on: Feb 22, 2019, 08:23 PM »
Thanks for the reply Daryl. I did get in on that awesome bullhead bite through the ice that kind of sucked. That is why I was looking forward to fishing it after the renovation.

Offline marknpanfish

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #13 on: Feb 22, 2019, 08:25 PM »
Oh I also forgot the comment on the cormorants I thought the only ate rough fish. At least that's what bird lovers say.

Offline eyecrosser65

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #14 on: Feb 22, 2019, 08:50 PM »
Anyone wanting to know the true impact of Cormorants on a fishery needs to look at what happened to Oneida Lake in upstate New York in the early 90's; there were so many they practically made a world class perch and walleye fishery crash. It got so bad the state along with volunteers had to step in and use a technique called "hazing" to spook them off from using this lake. If cormorants are a true problem it is time to take similar steps and nip this problem in the bud.

Offline Reinert

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #15 on: Feb 23, 2019, 06:47 AM »
Anyone wanting to know the true impact of Cormorants on a fishery needs to look at what happened to Oneida Lake in upstate New York in the early 90's; there were so many they practically made a world class perch and walleye fishery crash. It got so bad the state along with volunteers had to step in and use a technique called "hazing" to spook them off from using this lake. If cormorants are a true problem it is time to take similar steps and nip this problem in the bud.
  Just to add to this,last spring in North east Nebraska we had way  more pelicans than usual  , dozens and dozens of these birds on our local farm ponds did some damage with fish populations and we caught quite a few  bass and large crappie scarred up from them.

Offline marknpanfish

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #16 on: Feb 23, 2019, 07:54 AM »
 Too bad Cormorants don't taste like chicken.

Offline Jfarmer

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #17 on: Feb 23, 2019, 09:00 AM »
I've been to the meetings and voiced my concerns and also contacted state representatives. In a nutshell nobody cares and NGP is god. I'm not saying that lakes should never be renovated. However the task needs to be done by an organization that has the skills to do the job correctly and the accountability to be forced to fix a mistake when one is made. In the case of Willow lake. OK so it needed to be done. Bullheads were bad. Guess what at least you could catch a bullhead..what do we have now? Nothing. And first it was some gill disease and pelicans and every other fish eating bird. The list of excuses is long and more to come I'm sure.  Not a restock program in the works just more excuses. Anyone that's comfortable with what's taking place at the refuge is probably in for a dissapointment. Yes it needs to be done to some degree but by someone who knows what they are doing. NGP has given up on that area,(Willow ) no mowing campgrounds, no fixing toilet facilities,bad access roads and now no fish. Im sure there is a link or an excuse to cover that and personally I don't care.

Offline rweye

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #18 on: Feb 23, 2019, 08:22 PM »
scars on fish are those commorants , should be able to eradicate at times.

Offline FishGut

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #19 on: Feb 25, 2019, 05:34 PM »
The impact of cormorants is overblown, compared to other factors.

Double-Crested Cormorant Impacts on Sport Fish: Literature Review, Agency Survey, and Strategies

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=nwrccormorants
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Offline eyecrosser65

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #20 on: Feb 25, 2019, 06:27 PM »
I was merely pointing out that cormorants nearly ruined a world class fishery in upstate New York; and that lake is 30 miles long; a friend of mine sent me a photo a while back of a deceased cormorant in North Dakota; in it's belly were 300 juvenile perch. So imagine 50 or 60 cormorants working one of your smaller state lakes up in Nebraska.

Offline swoab47

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #21 on: Feb 26, 2019, 09:17 AM »
Pretty much all of your questions were answered in in the G&P podcast last night

Offline Sandbilly

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #22 on: Feb 26, 2019, 10:40 AM »
Sorry for the backlash Daryl.  Simply asking about hackberry and why it needs renovation again. When was it done last? Seems like it was around 10-12 yrs ago. What failed? What happened? You say there are carp already in Willow lake before anglers can even catch any other decent fish. Why? And why do you keep trying this same approach to renovation when it has failed before. Why and how do you expect better results next time? Not trying to offend you just asking. Would like to support these efforts but I need a better explanation than a link to another article. Thank you.

Not Daryl but I've been paying close attention to the V. Refuge lakes for several decades.

The last renovation on Hackberry was in the fall 2004. Restocking was implemented later that year with pan fish and bass only. This area was in somewhat of a dry cycle at that time and Hackberry had not returned to full pool going in the winter of 2006. Below normal temps and snow cover that lasted several months produced a 2006-07 winter kill. Hackberry was again restocked in the spring/summer of 2007, pan fish and bass. No pike stockings planned.

Spring of 2009 the V. Refuge experienced a high water event which provided enough water in the system to breach carp barriers between Hackberry and Dewey. Both carp and northern pike moved into Hackberry. Apparently a pile of pike must have made the move by the numbers we caught the winter of 2011/12. Pike growth rates were incredible in Hackberry right off the bat with all the pan fish to feed on.  It was amazing to watch massive coontail beds disappear in basically 2 years because of carp activity. Pan fish numbers crashed due to pike predation. There was simply not enough habitat to hide. Perch took the brunt of it at first, then bluegill and crappie. The pike have remained strong mainly due to carp and whatever pan fish have been able to hide long enough to get off a spawn.

Quote
And why do you keep trying this same approach to renovation when it has failed before. Why and how do you expect better results next time?


Read the link again. This is a complete system renovation, includes multiple lakes with new levees and carp barriers built to withstand 100 year water events. These improvements have never been implemented before on these lakes. It is not the same approach at all. Sandhill lakes can produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 lbs of fish/acre. That is a huge number in North America! Biomass count of carp in Pelican post renovation was 265 lbs/acre. Doesn't leave much room for game fish including pike.

Give them a chance. Pretty good track record on Sandhill lakes they get a carp kill on.                     

dc       

Offline whitetips

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #23 on: Feb 26, 2019, 10:43 AM »
Sorry for the backlash Daryl.  Simply asking about hackberry and why it needs renovation again. When was it done last? Seems like it was around 10-12 yrs ago. What failed? What happened? You say there are carp already in Willow lake before anglers can even catch any other decent fish. Why? And why do you keep trying this same approach to renovation when it has failed before. Why and how do you expect better results next time? Not trying to offend you just asking. Would like to support these efforts but I need a better explanation than a link to another article. Thank you.

Read the articles!!!!

And I have said many times--the difference this time is with modern technology we have a better idea than ever how the lakes on the Valentine Refuge function as a system.  This effort will manage common carp on a system basis instead of lake by lake.  Through in some dredging, improvements in water control structures, and fish barriers that we have never had before and we have an opportunity to eliminate carp from the whole system and perhaps keep them from coming back for a long, long time, if ever.  Oh, and even if common carp do come back, we will be better able to manage them than ever.

Listen to me, even if undesirable species eventually come back that DOES NOT MEAN THAT RENOVATIONS WERE FAILURES!!!!!!!

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2018/11/renovations/

(Yep, another "article" to read.  I kind of like the fact that I can refer back to them to answer frequently asked questions!)

Yes, Willow Lake is full of common carp, has a variety of other fish in it too--it connects to Clear which connects to Dewey which connects to Hackberry . . . .

And again let me say I have fished those refuge lakes for a long, long time.  Have dried off hundreds of big bluegills, perch, pike and bass from those holy waters.  I am confident that our current fisheries management efforts on the refuge will result in future fishing there that will be better than ever!  And I cannot wait!

Daryl B.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Offline whitetips

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #24 on: Feb 26, 2019, 02:18 PM »
Thank you Daryl. That helps. Looking forward to it too. Where can I go to be informed of the timeline of the plan at the refuge? Just curious and interested to follow it.

I will have frequent updates on my blog!

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Daryl B.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

Offline eyecrosser65

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #25 on: Feb 26, 2019, 02:20 PM »
I commend the efforts of the Nebraska fisheries guys for making renovations to keep quality fisheries going for both resident and non-resident fisherman. Changes; especially ones for the better rarely happen overnight. I think these guys are on the right track and some of the fisheries mentioned should improve; just have to have patience. I've never had the opportunity to fish the sandhills lakes; but they will be on my bucket list as a future destination to explore.

Offline duckhunter6963

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #26 on: Feb 26, 2019, 09:06 PM »
I will give it chance and see what happens I still think your making a big mistake by not stocking pike but like I said I will give it a chance.Daryl are you or did you lower the water level on Hackberry like you did on Pelican?

Offline fishngolf

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #27 on: Feb 27, 2019, 07:18 AM »
   



Not Daryl but I've been paying close attention to the V. Refuge lakes for several decades.

The last renovation on Hackberry was in the fall 2004. Restocking was implemented later that year with pan fish and bass only. This area was in somewhat of a dry cycle at that time and Hackberry had not returned to full pool going in the winter of 2006. Below normal temps and snow cover that lasted several months produced a 2006-07 winter kill. Hackberry was again restocked in the spring/summer of 2007, pan fish and bass. No pike stockings planned.

Spring of 2009 the V. Refuge experienced a high water event which provided enough water in the system to breach carp barriers between Hackberry and Dewey. Both carp and northern pike moved into Hackberry. Apparently a pile of pike must have made the move by the numbers we caught the winter of 2011/12. Pike growth rates were incredible in Hackberry right off the bat with all the pan fish to feed on.  It was amazing to watch massive coontail beds disappear in basically 2 years because of carp activity. Pan fish numbers crashed due to pike predation. There was simply not enough habitat to hide. Perch took the brunt of it at first, then bluegill and crappie. The pike have remained strong mainly due to carp and whatever pan fish have been able to hide long enough to get off a spawn.
 

Read the link again. This is a complete system renovation, includes multiple lakes with new levees and carp barriers built to withstand 100 year water events. These improvements have never been implemented before on these lakes. It is not the same approach at all. Sandhill lakes can produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 lbs of fish/acre. That is a huge number in North America! Biomass count of carp in Pelican post renovation was 265 lbs/acre. Doesn't leave much room for game fish including pike.

Give them a chance. Pretty good track record on Sandhill lakes they get a carp kill on.                     

dc     


Excellent, Don.

Offline Sandbilly

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #28 on: Feb 27, 2019, 08:14 AM »
I will give it chance and see what happens I still think your making a big mistake by not stocking pike but like I said I will give it a chance.Daryl are you or did you lower the water level on Hackberry like you did on Pelican?

Read the articles!

http://magazine.outdoornebraska.gov/2017/12/dec-valentine/

Quote
New or redesigned water control structures on the outlets below each lake will keep fish from moving upstream into a lake, even during periods of high water, and to allow FWS personnel to manage water levels.

Channels were dredged between the outletsí main lake bodies to insure maximum drawdown prior to a renovation. The key piece to this puzzle is a barrier constructed on the stream below Willow Lake, the last lake in the system, which will prevent carp from finding their way onto the refuge from private lakes to the northeast.

Separated from the other lakes, Watts Lake was the test subject for the process. Work began there in 2014, and when it was renovated in 2015, managers were able to lower the lake 3 feet, drawing the water out of all of the vegetation to all but insure a complete kill of carp and cutting chemical costs in half. Growth rates of the bass, bluegills, perch and crappie stocked following the work have been excellent, and anglers began pulling keeper-sized fish from the lake this year. Biologists expect the same at the rest of the refuge lakes.

https://www.fws.gov/refuge/valentine/news/news_items/Aquatic_Habitat_Project_Second_Phase.html

Public information about the V. Refuge ongoing renovation project has been around for several years. If you have fished the refuge at anytime over the last 4 years I'm sure you drove right past fresh spoil piles from the dredging with a pretty good chance of witnessing the actual dredging implement.     

dc

Offline whitetips

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Re: Liberalized Regulations for Hackberry
« Reply #29 on: Feb 27, 2019, 10:54 AM »
I will give it chance and see what happens I still think your making a big mistake by not stocking pike but like I said I will give it a chance.Daryl are you or did you lower the water level on Hackberry like you did on Pelican?

Ain't making any mistakes.

Water has already been lowered some on Hackberry, will be lowered more before the renovation.

We need low water for renovations.  It is easier to kill carp that way, and it saves $$$$$.

Daryl B.
Daryl Bauer
Fisheries Outreach Program Manager
Nebraska Game & Parks Commission
daryl.bauer@nebraska.gov
http://neblandvm.outdoornebraska.gov/category/barbs-and-backlashes/

 



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