Kicked off safe ice by State Trooper

[lowaccord66]

Thank you Captain those details are appreciated.

[BaitBucket]

As others have said, if we allow this to take place, we will loose our rights as Americans and forgo the freedoms that we have fought for.  Look throughout history.  The only way to affect change when you are being persecuted is to stand up to the perpetrators.  Even if they are the cops.  If we all roll over and show our bellies because it is "easier" or "less of a hassle" how much longer do you think we will be allowed to practice this great sport? 

Personally, it has nothing to do with "rolling over" or taking the "Easier" route. To me, its simply a battle not worth fighting for the following reasons..

If you are arrested for trespassing or what ever they charge you with, you'll have to go to court. If you're not a lawyer you'll need to get one. The standard minimum fee for a Defense Lawyer is around $5,000. Once you have proved you were right and they were wrong in court, they will dismiss your charges. This doesnt erase them from your record.. The charge will still appear in background checks by potential Employers, and can cost you the job. You will also need to check the "Yes Box" on applications that ask if you have ever been arrested. If you want to legally check the "No Box" and not have it appear on your background check, youll need to pay your lawyer an additional fee (usually $1,500) to have the charges sealed, which require you to go back to court. So for around $6,500 you can return to life as it was. With the knowledge that you really taught that cop a lesson. Just to get out on the ice the next weekend and get a different cop doing the same thing..

So in short, i chose to avoid the hassle of court, missing work, and the potential 6500$ in lawyer fees. I just pack up and fish somewhere else..

[lowaccord66]

Will your lawyer costs are out of whack.  You'll pay that to defend yourself from a DUI charge sure.  Simple tresspass is not something you hire a lawyer to defend against.  Again...ask me how I know! 

As far as the emplyment thing goes you are grasping at straws.  Its fine to just say "not worth the fight"  I've done it.  Garfield Lake is a good example...I had to give up.  Im not going to drop 5k for a retainer if I don't think I can win. 

I don't expect anyone to want to buck the "system" but I surely appreciate the ones that do.

This has been a solid discussion either way.

[maddogg]

May be it was his favorite fishing spot.

[PikeKing23]

Not sure where the trespassing charge would come into play, but nobody is going to pay $5000 for a lawyer when the charge only carries a max penalty of $100.  We are talking about legally accessing a public lake managed by EPO and being thrown off for ice safety reasons.  In any event, I'll bite. 

What would it take for you to stand up?  How far would it have to go?  What if you were on private land with permission?  How about your own land?  This is not a shot at you personally, but more of a point I'm trying to make to anybody with this mindset.  Our rights are continually being trampled upon and the more we let it happen, the more it will happen.  I guess everybody has their own threshold, but I will stand up for my rights in the hope that you all don't have your's violated. 

[lowaccord66]

Pikeking we are like minded on this subject.

[BaitBucket]

Will your lawyer costs are out of whack. 

Not sure where the trespassing charge would come into play, but nobody is going to pay $5000 for a lawyer when the charge only carries a max penalty of $100.  We are talking about legally a public lake managed by EPO and being thrown off for ice safety reasons.  In any event, I'll bite. 

Really depends on what they charge you with. Either way, even the 100$ fine, time missed from work, and court.. isnt worth it to me. And im definetly not going into a courtroom without an attorney.. They arent trying to take away your right to bear arms.  In all honesty, in all my years ice fishing, all over the state and other states, I have NEVER been told to get off the ice. So how many instances like this are we talking about, per year?

[taxi1]

I thought other than the point above we were having a decent discussion.  No need to make things convoluted with details from unrelated events in other states.  I take this stuff seriously and will be sticking my neck out by calling the Medford barricks and trying to educate so 23mako and others can peacefully enjoy a sport I love so much.  I deeply appreciate the people who do what I consider a difficult and thankless job but I have to be a professional at work and they do too!

Understood.

[Figure ate]

Personally, it has nothing to do with "rolling over" or taking the "Easier" route. To me, its simply a battle not worth fighting for the following reasons..

If you are arrested for trespassing or what ever they charge you with, you'll have to go to court. If you're not a lawyer you'll need to get one. The standard minimum fee for a Defense Lawyer is around $5,000. Once you have proved you were right and they were wrong in court, they will dismiss your charges. This doesnt erase them from your record.. The charge will still appear in background checks by potential Employers, and can cost you the job. You will also need to check the "Yes Box" on applications that ask if you have ever been arrested. If you want to legally check the "No Box" and not have it appear on your background check, youll need to pay your lawyer an additional fee (usually $1,500) to have the charges sealed, which require you to go back to court. So for around $6,500 you can return to life as it was. With the knowledge that you really taught that cop a lesson. Just to get out on the ice the next weekend and get a different cop doing the same thing..

So in short, i chose to avoid the hassle of court, missing work, and the potential 6500$ in lawyer fees. I just pack up and fish somewhere else..

It's broken thought processes like this that give cops free reign to do whatever they please. Police worship like this has turned this country into a police state.

[BaitBucket]

It's broken thought processes like this that give cops free reign to do whatever they please. Police worship like this has turned this country into a police state.

Its funny, because when other social injustices happen and peoples rights are infringed upon and the officer uses physical force or worse, the resounding comments from the masses are "why didnt he just listen to the officer"..

Anyway, i appreciate those who have the time, money, and patience to fight the good fight.

[Gansett]

It's broken thought processes like this that give cops free reign to do whatever they please. Police worship like this has turned this country into a police state.

Does your tinfoil hat keep you warm in the winter ?

[W8t B8t]

Hey I was wondering went to malden to buy sausages at Dom's Sunday were you the group fishing off the fellsway exit I was surprised to see ice fisherman down that way I came down from hubbardston

[W8t B8t]

Hey I was wondering went to malden to buy sausages at Dom's Sunday were you the group fishing off the fellsway exit I was surprised to see ice fisherman down that way I came down from hubbardston

[rdhammah]

I once was fishing on a pond at what turned out to be the end of the season. it was drizzly. an EPO pulled up next to my car and sat there. he never got out. he sat there for an hour waiting for me to come off the ice. when I finally came off, we talked. I joked with him about him waiting so long. he said that he questioned the ice quality and thickness. He did not want to take the chance but wanted to make sure that I got off safely. He was surprised when I told him that I drilled test holes all the way out and that there was still a good 6" of solid clear ice.
my point is is that even tho' the EPO questioned the ice, he let me make the decision to go and stay out 

[Figure ate]

Does your tinfoil hat keep you warm in the winter ?

Tinfoil hat implies conspiracy theories, correct. It's no theory that the police have been abusing power and making up their own rules. In fact, this entire thread is based on anecdotal evidence of exactly that.

[lowaccord66]

Tinfoil hat implies conspiracy theories, correct. It's no theory that the police have been abusing power and making up their own rules. In fact, this entire thread is based on anecdotal evidence of exactly that.

You are not kidding.  I had a state trooper pull me over because I passed him going north on rt8 and then a short time later driving south.  Had to ask him of driving a car was resonable suspision of committing a crime...he then let me leave.

[james1981]

 I was up in Nh on a pond that is very busy in open water season, 10hp limit. I was in my canoe with trolling motor, Marine patrol, which is I am guessing a summer gig mostly saw that I didn't have my registration on my bow as I was sitting in the front going backwards. He pulled up asked for my registration and licenses. He then proceeded to ask my why I didn't put my numbers on my bow and I let him know I was sitting in the front seat with motor on the bow. He then stated that something like motors usually are in the rear. I mentioned to him that putting a trolling motor on the bow is fairly common, but maybe just not in a canoe but I was alone and they get really unbalanced if you are not sitting in the bow seat alone going backwards. But I got a good one liner in there" I didn't think it was illegal to have a motor on the bow and go backwards?" or to something of that effect... But I guess its just part of the job.
 Long story short I tend to think this stuff doesn't happen up north of the border unless its someone on the bigger lakes thinking they own the whole place in front of house on lake. Fishing anywhere near the Coast or ponds in the metro area must be tough, lots of do gooders that have no clue. I run into this hunting everyonce and a while and trapping.  Last year I had 2 cruisers pull up on me when I was doing an animal Damage job in april. The lady with 2 labs said I had a gun, YES and moved very quickly out of my truck, YES as I didn't get paid by the hour but by animals, 2 cops, very polite and no problems. I basically gave them an education on what I was doing. I agree with Iowa, educating the police in regards to wildlife laws and access is very important. Especially I think 2 years ago they graduated 100 or so new EPOs from the academy....
 I also appreciate that Iowa has stuck it to those rich people for access to fish in front of their mansions.... LOL that's great.

[lowaccord66]

Thanks.  It was a battle because the owner was showing the cops that his property lines extended into the water.  I called zoning and got the same maps he was showing the cops.  He was not lying.  I was puzzled because I knew the intertidal zone was in the publics trust.  (Fish, fowl or navigate on any ocean front in mass up to the high water mark.) I don't recall how I got to the coastal management office, probably google but they took care of it.  The next time I went the guy came out and called the cops.  I had ignored hlm until they came.  Listening to them tell him he could be charged for calling on me was priceless.

All that said one of the biggest reasons I stopped surfcasting outside of the canal is situations like that.  Cops are human just like me and you.  I try to seperate the profession from the person but that only goes so far when the person uses their profession to take their bad day out on you.  Even when you are just fishing.  It gets old to be threatened, escorted, yelled at, a couple times shoved in a car.  For fishing legally.  I avoid that now if I can.

To relate this to ice fishing to demonatrate that the problem is deeper than just enforcement.  Over at Lake George there is a home next to public access.  One that has no docks in the water, no structures in the water to be damaged by ice but he runs and ice eater.  Not a bubbler an ice eater which is basically a giant pump to move water so it doesn't freeze.  He has pointed it away from his property directly towards public access creating weak ice.  DEC had him move it but he would point it back.  Someones dog went through and died and even still he wasn't criminally liable.  Ironic that a Lake Association that forces me to get my boat washed, inspected and tagged, will allow ice eaters that create current in a pristine lake, lots of current that does damage to the grass beds. 

Access is famously difficult there.  One of the largest access points, a State Boat launch has a large portion of it fenced off for no particular reason.  Special interests own that lake and if they could do it without a fight, they'd close all the public access there. Very similar to Garfield Lake in Monterey mass. I was told by a gut recently the cops tried to make him leave in April for trout fishing the only access after they stocked.  The officer cited that it was a town beach and they didnt want hooks there! I guess some in this thread will realize that when they cant fish where they want for no reason at all.  Nothing more for me to say on this other than its depressing.

[mikeupton]

23mako.  Was that you set up on the Fellsway pond across 93 from Spot Pond.  I was taking my son to his hockey game that morning from Reading to Revere, and as we drove by my (middle) son, also my fishing partner, saw 2 or 3 guys out there asked if we could hit that spot after his game.  Then when I got to the rink, all the other parents were joking, thinking it was me.  Many of them said the same thing to me, though.  Which was "someone should call the cops, that ice can't be safe."  I explained the depth was fine to probably drive a truck on.  They couldn't comprehend.  Someone driving down the road probably did call the cops, instead of putting their phones down, and watching the road.  Sorry you had to leave.  Martin's Pond in N Reading was all flags that day.

[Jig4perch]

Hi Guys, 

I enjoyed all these stories, points of view and legal insights.  I am hoping to put my new learnings in play and post the encounter.  I especially appreciate Iowa's passion.  He keeps us on track by segmenting facts from feelings...

Although I have never had an ICE encounter with police ... I have fought and won two driving/moving violations ... driving in the breakdown lane and expired inspection sticker ... but unlike the examples in this message string ...I was technically wrong ... but simply admitted I screwed up but asked for forgiveness.

Thanks again for sharing ...

[Ice Scratcher]

I think there are a lot of people missing the point here. It doesn't matter if the ice was "safe" or not. It also doesn't matter who had the opinion of whether it was safe or not. As a holder of a valid fishing licence, I have a right to fish public water and that right is protected by the law. Anybody (including local or state police) that try to strong arm, intimidate, or threaten me to stop this legal practice is actually the one who is breaking the law.  Both CT and MA law is very clear on this (I live in CT but also hold a MA license).

I don't even think that posting signs for "unsafe ice" are legal when it comes to fishing.  I understand trying to inform the general public who just walk out onto ice with no education or even a valid way to check the ice and want to inform them that there may be dangers.  In this case, if I choose to take that risk and need to be rescued, I should be liable for the cost.  However,  that does not give a town official the right to tell me I cannot use the resources that I pay to maintain.

As others have said, if we allow this to take place, we will loose our rights as Americans and forgo the freedoms that we have fought for.  Look throughout history.  The only way to affect change when you are being persecuted is to stand up to the perpetrators.  Even if they are the cops.  If we all roll over and show our bellies because it is "easier" or "less of a hassle" how much longer do you think we will be allowed to practice this great sport?

Great post ^

Thanks..

<°)))>{

[MrE1979]

Put the EPO phone nuber in your phone.  They CAN NOT make you leave the ice per MLG 131 Section 5C.  TO HELL WITH THEM they are not the law. I am waiting for the day one tries to throw me off the ice.  I have a cell phone and I will record the whole encounter.  Sorry pal go serve and protect someone else.  The ONLY way I am leaving is if they can tell me what law says I can not fish where I am fishing. 

[Squidy]

Its cut and dry though.  If someone is legally ice fishing Police can't interfere it's as simple as that, no middle of the road to be discussed. There is no law that that provides Police to authority to determine what is or isn't safe ice.

The abuse of power in regards to Police and fishing is prolific.  The Police in my travels have proven loyal to the special interests before they are loyal to the law or the fishermen.  Ice fishing, surfcasting, or freshwater, in my boat or on shore.  I had to go as far as having the Coastal Management Office reach out to Marblehead Police to explain the intertidal zone is in the public trust so I could avoid being arrested for trespassing.  I could recant stories that trash LEO's for unethical behaviour until we are all sick of hearing it. 

The side if the story that is most often ignored when it goes to court is the anglers story.  Ask me how I know...

I'll bite, how do you know ?

[cslater]

I have spoken to the EPOs I know about this.  While they may agree that you should not be getting thrown off safe ice... They WILL NOT come to your rescue and contradict the local officer.  An NO ONE in law enforcement believes that you are protected by the hunter harassment law.  The officer is NOT harassing you if he/she thinks they are doing their job.

The EPOs I have spoken with WILL be happy to call the department that threw you off, AT A LATER DATE, and try to educate them- that's the best you are gonna get...  Be a belligerent a$$ and you will only find trouble.

[Squidy]

Thanks for reaching out like that Cslater.
It's always good to remember your right to remain silent, and if an officer ever informs you of that right, your smartest move is to immediately exercise that right

[lowaccord66]

I'll bite, how do you know ?

Getting arrested for criminal tresspass in Mass surfcasting in the intertidal zone in front of north shore mansions....over and over again! 

[Squidy]

Getting arrested for criminal tresspass in Mass surfcasting in the intertidal zone in front of north shore mansions....over and over again!

I hear you, many people have challenged the old coastal access law. I haven't read up on it lately, but I thought some of the cases have changed it over the years not in favor of the fisherman.
I know the tactic Rockport has used is to make many areas that used to have parking, resident parking only. Some of these areas include public landings which to me should be illegal. How can you have a public landing without public parking? There was an effort being made up in Maine to document older public landings to prevent public access from being deigned as the coastal areas get more gentrified.

[manitron2]

I have spoken to the EPOs I know about this.  While they may agree that you should not be getting thrown off safe ice... They WILL NOT come to your rescue and contradict the local officer.  An NO ONE in law enforcement believes that you are protected by the hunter harassment law.  The officer is NOT harassing you if he/she thinks they are doing their job.

The EPOs I have spoken with WILL be happy to call the department that threw you off, AT A LATER DATE, and try to educate them- that's the best you are gonna get...  Be a belligerent a$$ and you will only find trouble.

Duly noted. Defending your rights is belligerence. The brotherhood trumps all. As a citizen who has never been arrested or in trouble, I find your post troubling in many ways. No wonder there is a BLM movement,which I had previously dismissed as BS. BTW,Section 5C is not just a hunter harassment law but specifically mentions fishing but you just indicated that YOU DONT CARE.As for law enforcement believing that 5C is not applicable, let me remind you that they are law "enforcement" not law interpretation and they have already conceded that we are being illegally thrown off the ice.

[lowaccord66]

Nothing like a state employee saying EPO's wont uphold the law they were sworn to protect.  Doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy.  Thankfully as the Boston Globe pointed out...many of them are found at home during duty or doing split shift overtime at a state park or pool so I don't see them that often. 

Some reading:

http://www.wcvb.com/article/5-investigates-some-environmental-cops-staying-home-while-on-duty/8280435

"...absolute power corrupts absolutely"

[cslater]

Don't shoot the messenger.
I'm not a Cop- don't even play one on TV.
Just telling you the way it is...