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Author Topic: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees  (Read 4757 times)

Offline Special

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Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« on: Jan 22, 2018, 07:04 PM »
Mackinaw is just another name for lake trout; no difference between the two fish.  The last few years there have been several lake trout up to 6-7 lbs. caught at Lake DeSmet, some in open water, some through the ice.  Over the last 25-30 years a few larger lake trout have also come out of DeSmet.

ClearCreek



Might shoot my self in the foot. But as of Memorial day lion club derby 2017. 14'lb lake trout where being turned in.  Hoo aaaa there are no lake trout in Desmit.  ::) ::) I don't know what your talking about. LOl so not a lot but a few are being caught. Hopefully one day 20 years from know we will have a hog in there. If I'm wrong but they grow around a inch a year so average pup is 20-25 inches. So have quite a few years before we get trophy quality.
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Offline mobilerat

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #1 on: Jan 23, 2018, 01:12 AM »
Might shoot my self in the foot. But as of Memorial day lion club derby 2017. 14'lb lake trout where being turned in.  Hoo aaaa there are no lake trout in Desmit.  ::) ::) I don't know what your talking about. LOl so not a lot but a few are being caught. Hopefully one day 20 years from know we will have a hog in there. If I'm wrong but they grow around a inch a year so average pup is 20-25 inches. So have quite a few years before we get trophy quality.
How many thousands of dollars in stocked rainbow trout do you expect it to cost to grow your trophy Laker?

Offline WGFFishBio

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #2 on: Jan 23, 2018, 09:20 AM »
How many thousands of dollars in stocked rainbow trout do you expect it to cost to grow your trophy Laker?
Same amount it would cost to grow trophy, illegally introduced walleye

Offline slamber

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #3 on: Jan 23, 2018, 09:31 AM »
How many thousands of dollars in stocked rainbow trout do you expect it to cost to grow your trophy Laker?

Who cares? Food for bigger fish is all those little rainbows are good for. It would be awesome to have a fishable population of lakers in there. They need to throw something new like cisco, smallmouth and tigers in there and see what happens.

I only hear of the occasional walleye being caught through the ice; if someone is catching them they're not talking about it.

Offline mobilerat

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #4 on: Jan 24, 2018, 07:16 PM »
Who cares? Food for bigger fish is all those little rainbows are good for. It would be awesome to have a fishable population of lakers in there. They need to throw something new like cisco, smallmouth and tigers in there and see what happens.

I only hear of the occasional walleye being caught through the ice; if someone is catching them they're not talking about it.


So how much are you willing to pay additional for $1.50 trout to feed these lakers for 50 years .
Maybe a gate fee at desmet?
Someone has to pay or they stop stocking when the trout return to creel drops to an unacceptable level.

Offline slamber

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2018, 08:20 PM »
I'm in favor of an annual/daily entrance fee to use DeSmet in the first place; say $20 annual, $2 daily. I'd gladly pay more if the fishing was worth it.

Offline Houligan

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #6 on: Jan 24, 2018, 09:38 PM »
DeSmet is not owned by the game and fish nor the department of parks and hysterical sites. Pretty sure you will not see a gate fee anytime soon. The funding comes from your licensing already. And remember they just increased license fees. If wanting to pay more for fishing "rights" send a donation to the game and fish. Please don't encourage the bilking of more funds out of the citizenship. All the more traffic DeSmet gets it would cost more in G&F salary to collect the monies and red tape to disperse the funds.

If this is true, not sure why trout are being used for forage when there are other less expensive forage species that could be used. Shad, smelt etc... Or should I ask are other forage species more beneficial and less expensive then trout? Wonder why there's no big spiel about the cutthroat in DeSmet with all these invasive, non indigenous species being introduced like in other cutthroat waters. Oh that's right, its only the walleye or the "illegally introduced walleye" that eat native trout. So on one hand we use trout to feed the lake trout in DeSmet but the lake trout in Buffalo Bill don't eat trout, only the walleye do?

Its getting hard to see through the smoke....

Offline Kinkyline

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #7 on: Jan 25, 2018, 07:49 AM »
   Big fish get big by good forage bases being established in a body of water. Feed them stockers and the will gladly eat them. Introduce forage fish and they will eat the easier to catch minnows. I'm with mobilerat and his thinking.  ;D

Offline WGFFishBio

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #8 on: Jan 25, 2018, 09:14 AM »
DeSmet is not owned by the game and fish nor the department of parks and hysterical sites. Pretty sure you will not see a gate fee anytime soon. The funding comes from your licensing already. And remember they just increased license fees. If wanting to pay more for fishing "rights" send a donation to the game and fish. Please don't encourage the bilking of more funds out of the citizenship. All the more traffic DeSmet gets it would cost more in G&F salary to collect the monies and red tape to disperse the funds.

If this is true, not sure why trout are being used for forage when there are other less expensive forage species that could be used. Shad, smelt etc... Or should I ask are other forage species more beneficial and less expensive then trout? Wonder why there's no big spiel about the cutthroat in DeSmet with all these invasive, non indigenous species being introduced like in other cutthroat waters. Oh that's right, its only the walleye or the "illegally introduced walleye" that eat native trout. So on one hand we use trout to feed the lake trout in DeSmet but the lake trout in Buffalo Bill don't eat trout, only the walleye do?

Its getting hard to see through the smoke....
My comment the other day has been misconstrued. We do not stock trout as forage in DeSmet or anywhere in the state of Wyoming. It was a comment to make light that predators are in DeSmet, whether the migrant lake trout (they come down Piney Creek from some of the wildness lakes above Buffalo), the brown trout (we see browns over 20 lbs in DeSmet), or the walleye. We have to stock bigger trout to avoid as much predation as possible, regardless of which species might eat that newly stocked trout. Thus, regardless of what might eat that stocked trout, it's gonna cost the same. That's where my comment derived.

Cutthroat were never native to DeSmet.  The Clear Creek drainage was never endemic range for the Yellowstone cutthroat.  Cutthroat have been stocked to provide an additional sport fishing opportunity.

Offline Houligan

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #9 on: Jan 25, 2018, 11:48 AM »
Thanks for your clarification.

The trout are not specifically purchased and stocked for the forage source of these predator species but they are eating them?

My question still stands about shad, smelt etc... being introduced as forage?

Where are all of the 8-10" trout coming from if the effort is to stock larger trout? or are they the larger trout?


Offline WGFFishBio

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #10 on: Jan 25, 2018, 02:26 PM »
Yes, a large walleye, brown, or lake trout can and will eat our stocked trout. The 8 to 10 inch fish is our "bigger" fish and they are considered a "catchable". In the past, we would stock 200,000 to 300,000 "subcatchbles" or "fingerlings" in DeSmet. The theory back then was to stock more and smaller, then they would grow the rest on their own. Some would get eaten, while the rest survived. Today, just like Boysen, Seminoe, Pathfinder, and Alcova, we stock a bigger fish that can hopefully avoid predation.  Numerous investigations with our big trout/walleye reservoirs have found that there will be very little survival of smaller stocked trout.

It costs WGFD more to raise bigger fish because of the increased cost of feed to raise that bigger fish. Not as many get stocked, but hopefully more of those bigger fish will survive. Another technique that we currently use is to stock as late in the year as possible (right before ice-on). The metabolism of large predatory fish (some exceptions) is slower during the colder water months, requiring less intake of food items, thus more stocked trout survive.

Shad have been introduced into Glendo and Keyhole, but they are whimpy fish and tend to winterkill. Shad were introduced into Seminoe back in the day and they just didn't make it, or do what we had hoped. The average water temperatures are just too cold for shad in those reservoirs. In lieu of shad, emerald shiners were introduced into most trout reservoirs, including DeSmet.  Currently, emerald shiners are still quite prolific in DeSmet and provide additional forage for trout, walleye, and perch.

Hope this helps

Offline mobilerat

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #11 on: Jan 25, 2018, 04:33 PM »
Thanks for explaining it better than I could.  I watched an interesting show recently about how lake  trout illegally introduced into Yellowstone lake has caused a tremendous decline in the Elk population. I was very skeptical at first but they explained it very well how the lake trout eating the Cutthroats caused the grizzly bears to begin eating the elk calves when they used to be eating the cutthroat at that time of year. Illegal fish introductions have caused major problems in many places in the country. I wish there was a better way to stop them.

Offline wyoutdoors

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #12 on: Jan 25, 2018, 05:38 PM »
Thanks for explaining it better than I could.  I watched an interesting show recently about how lake  trout illegally introduced into Yellowstone lake has caused a tremendous decline in the Elk population. I was very skeptical at first but they explained it very well how the lake trout eating the Cutthroats caused the grizzly bears to begin eating the elk calves when they used to be eating the cutthroat at that time of year. Illegal fish introductions have caused major problems in many places in the country. I wish there was a better way to stop them.

Sounds like a Chaos Theory explanation. Elk decline due to lakers? Maybe wolves play a larger role in elk, deer populations declining than a lake trout? :tipup:

Offline appleye

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #13 on: Jan 25, 2018, 06:12 PM »
Sounds like a Chaos Theory explanation. Elk decline due to lakers? Maybe wolves play a larger role in elk, deer populations declining than a lake trout? :tipup:
I'm with you. Can't have that conversation without the wolves. Citing lake trout for the decline in the food chain is, "Out there!"

Shad are wimpy and I thought that was the reason for using them when I first read about them because of them dying off every year they don't over take their environment. I would agree the Seminoe is too cold for a warmer water bait fish, DeSmet gets 80 degrees in August. Have only seen low 70's at the same time of year at Seminoe. One thing is for sure the fish don't get big without food and age. Same as everything else. With all the "Experiments" at DeSmet in the past, (Eagle lake rainbow, cutbow, etc..) sure would be fun to see what some more food would do for the large fish.
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Offline Labdog

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #14 on: Jan 25, 2018, 06:33 PM »
Ha! Great conversation on the Lake Trout, was out today off the Monument. Looking for Lakers and Browns in deep drop off areas but found nothing. Had to move to the shallow areas to catch dinner. Good ice 11-12"

Offline legend

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #15 on: Jan 25, 2018, 06:48 PM »
wgffishbio, thank you for your explanations.
I am haunted by waters...

Offline Special

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #16 on: Jan 25, 2018, 10:21 PM »
What is the opinion on taking some of the perch in healy and transplanting them into desmit for forage???  Also would help beef up the perch population. There is plenty in healy to grab. Help both fisheries out???
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Offline slamber

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #17 on: Jan 26, 2018, 09:21 AM »
DeSmet is not owned by the game and fish nor the department of parks and hysterical sites. Pretty sure you will not see a gate fee anytime soon. The funding comes from your licensing already. And remember they just increased license fees. If wanting to pay more for fishing "rights" send a donation to the game and fish. Please don't encourage the bilking of more funds out of the citizenship. All the more traffic DeSmet gets it would cost more in G&F salary to collect the monies and red tape to disperse the funds.

The operating and maintenance costs for DeSmet (the lake itself) are paid by Johnson County (68.27%) and Sasol (31.73%). The Mikesell-Potts recreation area, (inlcuding all of the campgrounds, beaches and boat ramps) is owned and operated by Johnson county. There used to be a ramp fee and there has been talk of requiring an access fee again. As a Johnson county resident I'm obviously in favor of asking other users to help pay for the maintenance; During a busy summer day there are more Sheridan and Campbell county vehicles than Johnson. Additionally, if a small fee was charged to use the Mikesell-Potts, they would be able to add some improvements to the lake, such as a fish cleaning station.

The Monument recreation area is actually owned by the Game and Fish; so your license fees do pay for that access area.

From what I can tell there are plenty of perch in the lake; the issue is that there is a shortage of suitable habitat to help the existing population grow. Before the level was raised to its current level, there was a great perch fishery in DeSmet. However, all of the suitable perch habitat is now too deep to be usable. If they continue to drop in habitat every year that will be a big help.

Offline Houligan

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #18 on: Jan 26, 2018, 11:44 AM »
With all due respect, the funding I was speaking of is for stocking not maintenance of the grounds. Proposed gate fees will have absolutely zero impact on stocking costs. If 100% of the maintenance cost being covered why charge visitors more money that may or may not have an actual impact on budgeting?

Questions that come up:
Where are the statistics that show the number of visitors from another county are higher then local visitors?
What are the estimated numbers of visitors per year to the lake?
What is the cost for daily collection of fees and accounting?
What will the added cost of maintenance of a fish cleaning station be and can these fees cover it long term?

My concerns are seeing this or any improvement counting on the funding coming from additional fees paid by visitors just to fall short due to attendance or the profitability not being there in the first place. Then once again sportsman will be the ones taxed for the shortcomings or threatened they will loose something if they're not willing to cough up more. It happens all to often. Don't get me wrong I'm not against the idea. What I am against is irresponsible spending/waste and programs that do not have clear long term budgeting set in place that sportsman pay for. Sportsman usually end up carrying the full bag when it falls short.   

Offline POk3s

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #19 on: Jan 26, 2018, 01:44 PM »
Not to add more smoke, fire, and craziness to this post (although I can't top cutthroat shortages causing elk calf deaths) but where does the madness stop!?

The only experience I have with Lake Desmet is driving past it. However, you guys are talking about whether or not a stocked (and non-native species) rainbow trout is more worth it as a forage or as a sport. The answer is to stock more non native baitfish as a forage base to keep the non native lake trout (that evidently nobody thought would ever make it down stream) from foraging on the non native rainbows.....

And then to help there be more non native rainbows, add a fee...... do I have that right?

What I'm getting at is, when this state got stocked with all these fish in the first place, it was all for recreation, or at least that's how it looks to me, and that is perfectly fine. But why are we so mad at one non native species of trout but so generous to the other? What difference does it make?? Manage it for the health of the fishery, to make the most out of the recreation. Why make it this difficult?
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Offline mobilerat

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #20 on: Jan 26, 2018, 03:25 PM »
Not to add more smoke, fire, and craziness to this post (although I can't top cutthroat shortages causing elk calf deaths) but where does the madness
I was skeptical also but watch mystery in Yellowstone on the Smithsonian Channel and they do a very good job of showing that the grizzly bears lost their traditional food source in the spring when the Cutthroats disappeared and they turned to  eating elk calves. They claim that the Wolves can't smell good enough to find the elk calves but the grizzly bears can.

Offline mobilerat

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #21 on: Jan 26, 2018, 03:26 PM »
Not to add more smoke, fire, and craziness to this post (although I can't top cutthroat shortages causing elk calf deaths) but where does the madness
I was skeptical also but watch mystery in Yellowstone on the Smithsonian Channel and they do a very good job of showing that the grizzly bears lost their traditional food source in the spring when the Cutthroats disappeared and they turned to  eating elk calves. They claim that the Wolves can't smell good enough to find the elk calves but the grizzly bears can.

Offline POk3s

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #22 on: Jan 26, 2018, 04:09 PM »
Must have been part of the "wolves save rivers" show huh.
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Offline wyoutdoors

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #23 on: Jan 26, 2018, 05:16 PM »
Wolves do not have a sense of smell "good enough" to locate an elk calf?   :unsure:

Offline Dorado

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #24 on: Jan 26, 2018, 05:37 PM »
I believe the actual study found that the lack of spawning cutthroat changed the prey base for grizzlies from trout to calf elk.  They hypothesized that this shift impacted the elk, but there was never any suggestion that it was the main or only cause of the decline in the elk population in that segment of the park.

Offline wyoutdoors

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #25 on: Jan 26, 2018, 06:19 PM »
Responsible scientific "studies" also showed the ice caps would be gone by now too. I don't buy the cutties are even partly responsible for elk calf declines, or that wolves cannot detect elk calves by sense of smell. The whole thread should be tossed imo lol.

Offline Dorado

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #26 on: Jan 26, 2018, 06:24 PM »
Responsible scientific "studies" also showed the ice caps would be gone by now too. I don't buy the cutties are even partly responsible for elk calf declines, or that wolves cannot detect elk calves by sense of smell. The whole thread should be tossed imo lol.

Those silly scientists!  What have they ever done for us anyway;)

Offline mobilerat

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #27 on: Jan 26, 2018, 07:43 PM »
Watch the show I have been blaming the wolves waiting for open season. If I see a wolf in the predator zone lead will be flying .I don't want them where I hunt. They made a good case for it.It is well known that first born ungulates are nearly scentless. Grizzlies have better noses than wolves.There is no single cause of the decline. If nothing else they would have run themselves out of food. If unchecked ungulate populations crash due to lack of food.

Offline POk3s

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #28 on: Jan 26, 2018, 07:48 PM »
Responsible scientific "studies" also showed the ice caps would be gone by now too. I don't buy the cutties are even partly responsible for elk calf declines, or that wolves cannot detect elk calves by sense of smell. The whole thread should be tossed imo lol.

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Offline Kinkyline

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Re: Lake Trout forage in Lake DeSmet and Fees
« Reply #29 on: Jan 27, 2018, 09:07 AM »
   Why would a big ol' grizzly spend all day spooning a creek for fish when it could fill it's belly with succulent elk meat? They come up with some crazy theories to place blame on. Wolves must be considered as part of the elk mortality problem. Yah think?

 



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