Winni lakers spine disorder

[suckerbait]

Hoping someone on here knows what I am referring to. Have always caught a few winni lakers over the years with a spine deformity. Caught one a few years back while being checked by a Warden and he told me what the disorder was called and that it was becoming less prevalent on winni. This year I have caught a number of fish with this disorder and I can't remember what it was called. Wanted to do some research on it, but can't find anything. Was hoping someone on here knows what I am talking about and could post up what the disorder is called. Have a lousy cell phone picture from yesterday that I don't think I could get uploaded from my antiquated phone, but would text a picture if someone was interested in seeing what I am referring to.

[Swampdonkey]

Whirling disease

[sincityrednek]

I caught one a few years back that looked like a freaking lightning bolt.

[suckerbait]

Thanks, just looked up pictures and whirling disease is it! Also found a little write up on fishlakewinni.com on it.

[suckerbait]

After reading write up on fishlakewinni.com by John Viar who is the lakes region cold water biologist I question if it is whirling disease even though pictures indicate otherwise. May contact him and send him a picture of what I am seeing.

[AQUAASSASSIN]

I'm of the understanding it is NOT Whirling Disease

[PDubs/NH]

I'm with you Frank... I believe it is something else completely unrelated to W.D.

[AQUAASSASSIN]

I'm with you Frank... I believe it is something else completely unrelated to W.D.

Agreed buddy, genetic defect or possibly even a form of interbreeding with the extreme rarity being a injury as well

[WhereDaRainbows]

I caught one with a wavy back bone a couple years ago. It's hard to describe but it is really weird. I emailed fish and game and they told me that if I ever catch another one to call as soon as I did so they could come pick it up for testing

[JoeGG]

It is definitely not Whirling Disease. I sent John Viar a pic of a brown I caught in Ossipee this year that had the same deformity. He said it was the first brown he had ever seen with the same characteristics as the lakers he had seen. He said it was not Whirling Disease that that brown or the lakers have and they really have no explanation other than that it could be a vitamin deficiency. One thing he did say was that it didn't seem to stunt the fish or make the fish not fight as well as a "normal" looking fish. I can attest to this because the 4 lb brown I caught that had that deformity fought like a champ.

[Mr.Harry]

I know immediately what you are talking about and have caught laker on winni with same. But outside of having seen it, I have no idea what it is. I just figured some kind of rare deformity.

[Coffin Dodger]

It is definitely not Whirling Disease. I sent John Viar a pic of a brown I caught in Ossipee this year that had the same deformity. He said it was the first brown he had ever seen with the same characteristics as the lakers he had seen. He said it was not Whirling Disease that that brown or the lakers have and they really have no explanation other than that it could be a vitamin deficiency. One thing he did say was that it didn't seem to stunt the fish or make the fish not fight as well as a "normal" looking fish. I can attest to this because the 4 lb brown I caught that had that deformity fought like a champ.

Exactly!
There are lakers with that deformity that show up every year in Winni.
Joe's brown is the first I've heard of. Interesting....

[zwiggles]

Should you release them?

[Coffin Dodger]

Should you release them?

From what I've heard, it's not contagious.
Joe's reasons from John Viar are exactly what I've heard.

[AQUAASSASSIN]

I've released every one I've ever caught

[redneckfisherman5]

Call ajs he has caught many off these lakers with crooked spines , he has a name for it I believe just can't remember what he called it

[BrookieSlayer99]

X2 on what JoeG said
I have asked about his multiple times and it isn't whirling disease. About 1% or 5% (can't remember which) of lakers in winni exhibit this trait. It does not seem to significantly affect the fish on a huge scale because some of the biggest lake trout specimens taken from year to year have this weird back problem. Samples were sent to the feds and the results were inconclusive. This is seen mostly on only lake trout (they netted one salmon that had it when I was with them) and it also only seems to affect winni on a large scale.

[bigjon6744]

I caught one on Saturday and was to ashamed to take a pic. I showed a couple of my buds I was fishing with nobody had seen it before. I thought it may had been hit by boat or something? It was pretty nasty looking. I almost took It out of the gene pool but decided to let it go. Very strang

[Dispy]

I do believe it is Whirling's and it is not being admitted too, for the same reason that the bobcat resurgence had been held quietly for many years......if this is confirmed, the Department would go belly up due in part to a complete over haul of the locations in which it originated from......let's see how many "crooked fish" will be found in the P-scat steelhead pens......

[Dispy]

Fact check to the distribution by Columbia University >>>>http://www.columbia.edu/itc/cerc/danoff-burg/invasion_bio/inv_spp_summ/myxobolus_cerebralis.html#Distribution

[Dispy]

hmm and here again it shows up in another source Clearly stating NH as a state having the disease present....http://www.in.gov/dnr/files/WHIRLING_DISEASE.pdf

[Dispy]

Tubifex worms are harvested and used in many fish foods such a corn pellets, fish flakes..so it is conceivable that our prized hatchery Trout has introduced this into our waters along with failed septic systems leeching into the lakes. Whereas, lakers will feed upon Rainbow Trout as do other species....my money is on the hush hush disease.

An interesting side note......I recently caught wind (I have not been able to confirm the story yet) of a few fisherman catching some hefty sized smallies on Lake Winni, but to their surprise these bronzebacks had large circular sores upon their sides...rest easy, at first lamprey eels came to mind and warranted a Department dive team to investigate.....the results........the lakers are feeding heavily upon big smallmouth bass and were reported to be some very large monsters in the depths

[BrookieSlayer99]

If it is whirling disease, then why is it only affecting lake trout and not other salmonids like landlocks, rainbows, ect. to such a degree?

[AQUAASSASSIN]

I still disagree

[BrookieSlayer99]

Viar responded to this topic 12 years ago on Fish Lake Winni.com
Hello Salty and Tim-

Thank you for your questions regarding the "cripple" laker/whirling disease concerns. I have since seen some of the thread/posts on fishlakewinni.

It should be made clear, although documented in the 1980's from the Merrimack River/southern NH (as one poster correctly noted), the probability of its widespread existence/detrimental effects in NH water bodies is very low at best. It has been detected in New York, it has also been detected in Vermont, notably in the Battenkill. However, as of 2005 per my source, it has not been detected in Maine which overall, is most similar to NH in terms of water quality/type of water bodies e.g. glacial lakes.

Many factors must "come together" for this affliction to take hold, including the existence and abundance, and habitat for, the intermediate host (Tubifex worms). Also, lake trout are not highly susceptible to the disease, whereas rainbow trout are highly susceptible. In our recent (at least my time, ~last decade) electroshocking studies conducted in streams/rivers (including lake tributaries) statewide, in which countless juvenile salmonids are examined during biological surveys, including rainbow, brook, and brown trout, and salmon, to the best of my knowledge there has been no indication of the presence of whirling disease. (Yes, in particular NH waters juvenile wild rainbows, browns, and salmon are not only present but actually fairly common, contrary to popular belief/common knowledge. Wild brook trout, native to NH, are obviously present.) In terms of fall netting, we have literally examined thousands and thousands of adult salmonids, and again, have not observed symptoms that suggest whirling disease is present in NH's large lakes (although external symptoms are not always seen in adult fish/they simply aren't there to see as adults; see below).

Given the posts I'm sure many have done extensive Google/internet searches; nonetheless check this link for information on whirling disease:
http://www.whirling-disease.org/

Most fish infected with whirling disease rarely achieve such size (although it is possible) as the lake trout pictured, since they typically spin and lose control of normal swimming activities (hence the name of the affliction) as juveniles - thus easily preyed upon by other predators, or severely limited in their own foraging efforts. (And we all know a small spinning fish in the jungle we call Winnipesaukee is on borrowed time). Given the current state of knowledge regarding this disease, more likely causes for such deformities in central and northern New Hampshire waters include genetics, "popped" vertebrae/disks, wounds incurred earlier in the fish's life - such as suffered from predator attacks, nutritional/foraging deficiencies, previous fungal or bacterial infections, and exposure to chemical contaminants, among other possibilities. Again, it is not impossible it could be whirling disease, but very, very, unlikely given the current knowledge and lack of observation/verification in the myriad of other waters and salmonids surveyed throughout NH on an annual basis.

One thing that should be noted; do NOT keep under-length fish. The laker we saw turned into the Winni Derby this spring is a perfect example that seemingly "cripple" fish may fare much better than we realize (deformed or not, I'll take an 11 lbs. laker any day!). However, if the fish is of legal length, you are certainly allowed to harvest the fish if desired.

Thank you again for your questions and what a great season. Can't wait until next year. Stay tuned for fall netting results; I'll be sure to send the "fall netting summary" and updated "fin clip/age list" to the website sometime this winter.

Also, feel free to post this response on the website, since it appears there was quite a thread on this topic.

John V.
--------------------------------------
John A. Viar
Fisheries Biologist I
New Hampshire Fish and Game Department
Region 2 Office
PO Box 417
New Hampton NH 03256
(603)744-5470

Again, this response is from 2005 but I do not think that his stance on the topic has changed.

[Dispy]

If it is whirling disease, then why is it only affecting lake trout and not other salmonids like landlocks, rainbows, ect. to such a degree?

I read the post John made on the Winni forum back quite a few years ago...admittedly writing that it was found in NH. It has since never been reported on. So again, unless my words did not convey correctly, I'll be more clearer. Also, I have seen Rainbows with the same deformity in more than one lake or pond.

1. Lakers will eat Rainbow Trout? Yes. Will Salmon, highly unlikely as they do not reproduce in our waters and never achieve the size to eat a 12 to 15" Rainbow

2. Now just where exactly does NH F&G receive our "cultured" fish as their Master Plan for the Fisheries spells out?

3. It is possible that the rearing hatchery may have had been infected, since the writing of Viar's post, 21 states were infected...and I provided two National Sources, in case you missed the link, I'll spare you the click....."After a review of 1996 data, Bergersen and Anderson (1997) determined that M. cerebralis had become distributed throughout most regions of the contiguous 48 states where self-sustaining trout populations existed. The exceptions were Wisconsin, Minnesota, the desert southwest and a few areas of isolated populations in Missouri, Nebraska and the Black Hills of South Dakota (Bergersen & Anderson, 1997)"

4. Why did the State refuse to acknowledge a population of Bobcats for so long? Short answer, NH F&G did not have the budget means to properly survey and address, considering they are running in the red. By openly acknowledging the existence, it would have bankrupted the Department because a study would have had to be performed.....now a reversal of the facts, UNH funded the study with Federal monies, and all of a sudden we are legislating for a bobcat hunt.

5. Using the same applied logic, one could see that if Whirlings Disease was openly admitted to, NH F&G would be in the frying pan and would have to re-examine their hatchery permitting, inspection reports and all the other bureaucracy associated with their programs. Bankrupt again.

6.  The educated guess, is that it is known, but to save face and expenses, it is not admitted too. Federal Facts convey it is wide spread in 48 State as quoted above.  A simple deduction is that a probability study was performed using scientific formulas that only a Rhodes Scholar could understand to address the issue and sweep it under the rug.

[JoeGG]

My biggest question about all this was the fact that if these lakers (and my 4 lb brown) spin like the name says, they wouldn't be able to  achieve the size of the lakers I have caught. One other thing Tom, although not prolific, salmon do reproduce in NH lakes and Ossipee is one of them. The fact that lakers are not susceptible to the disease but rainbows are "highly" susceptible leads me to think that it must be something else that causes the zigzag spine of the lakers. Otherwise, if it is Whirling Disease, you would see a greater number of bows with the same zig zag spine, and I haven't EVER seen a rainbow with that type of spine.

[Dispy]

My biggest question about all this was the fact that if these lakers (and my 4 lb brown) spin like the name says, they wouldn't be able to  achieve the size of the lakers I have caught. One other thing Tom, although not prolific, salmon do reproduce in NH lakes and Ossipee is one of them. The fact that lakers are not susceptible to the disease but rainbows are "highly" susceptible leads me to think that it must be something else that causes the zigzag spine of the lakers. Otherwise, if it is Whirling Disease, you would see a greater number of bows with the same zig zag spine, and I haven't EVER seen a rainbow with that type of spine.

Hi Joe, hope all is well with you. First, Whirlings Disease affects all salmonoid species. Lake Trout (Salvelinus namaycush) is freshwater Char. Both Arctic Char (Salvelinus alpinus) and Brown Trout (Salmo trutta) are all in the Salmonidae family, therefore they are all susceptible to the disease.

Again, take the time to actually read the links I posted and learn the facts. Excerpt taken from Monatana.EDU and I quote "Whirling disease is a serious health problem for trout and salmon. It is caused by a microscopic parasite called Myxobolus cerebralis. The impacts of the parasite and the resulting disease are variable. However, whirling disease remains a concern for trout in streams and hatcheries of North America. Physical signs of the disease include blackened tail, spinal deformities, and erratic swimming. In severe infections, whirling disease can cause death. Whirling disease is most infective to rainbow trout and cutthroat trout, but can infect all salmonid species."

Source http://whirlingdisease.montana.edu/about/anglers.htm

It cannot get anymore clearer. Research shows that some, not ALL, fish die young and can achieve a lengthy life. So again, I'll leave the readers with another FAQ check to read before inserting their opinions. Someone once stated "there is truth in knowledge" and when the facts are presented, no solid argument can be made against them. http://whirlingdisease.montana.edu/about/faq.htm

[BrookieSlayer99]

Hi Joe, hope all is well with you. First, Whirlings Disease affects all salmonoid species. Lake Trout (Salvelinus namaycush) is freshwater Char. Both Arctic Char (Salvelinus alpinus) and Brown Trout (Salmo trutta) are all in the Salmonidae family, therefore they are all susceptible to the disease.

Again, take the time to actually read the links I posted and learn the facts. Excerpt taken from Monatana.EDU and I quote "Whirling disease is a serious health problem for trout and salmon. It is caused by a microscopic parasite called Myxobolus cerebralis. The impacts of the parasite and the resulting disease are variable. However, whirling disease remains a concern for trout in streams and hatcheries of North America. Physical signs of the disease include blackened tail, spinal deformities, and erratic swimming. In severe infections, whirling disease can cause death. Whirling disease is most infective to rainbow trout and cutthroat trout, but can infect all salmonid species."

Source http://whirlingdisease.montana.edu/about/anglers.htm

It cannot get anymore clearer. Research shows that some, not ALL, fish die young and can achieve a lengthy life. So again, I'll leave the readers with another FAQ check to read before inserting their opinions. Someone once stated "there is truth in knowledge" and when the facts are presented, no solid argument can be made against them. http://whirlingdisease.montana.edu/about/faq.htm

So this disease is only present in natural environments or we would see this much more often in hatcheries?

[Dispy]

So this disease is only present in natural environments or we would see this much more often in hatcheries?

No sir. NH used to import it's rainbow trout from New York hatcheries so, here is the official NY DEC reports on Whirlings Disease infected New York hatcheries...give it a read......I am now procuring the documentation on NH's other place of import..Pennsylvania. I am also pulling import and export documents that will clearly demonstrate that NH imported infected fish during those years and it coincides with certain public statement by officials

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/21665.html