right to work

[MONSTERQUEST]

So what is everyone's take on this bill? Why do some call this a UNION post, seem like a simple question was asked.

[Yogi]

This is the problem is that in this county nobody wants to discuss these things.  People just go with the flow.  That is what gets this state and country in so much trouble.  People just vote and have no idea what they are voting for.  That is why this right to work is so important to discuss.  We can discuss so many other things that are important.  I teach government and I plead to my students to vote.  I never tell them who to vote for or who I am going to vote for. I teach them what actually the officals are saying, so they can make an accurate choice when they vote.  I would wager to say 75 percent of people in this state have no idea what right to work is.  Governor Daniels state of the union had good points and points that werent so good.  He has done a great job for the hunter and fisherman in gaining access.  He has been the worst thing to happen in education in a really long time.  We are losing tons of great teachers every year, because his administration has hurt the education system so much.  I am teaching in a school that has no A/C and is is falling apart.  People say we dont need A/C in schools.  When it is over 80 degrees outside it is 90 in my room.  It was 95.6 degrees in my room last year.   I appreciate Hoosier allowing this thread up.  I am happy to see all the replies and views.  If people dont want to reply or view dont click on it.  No reason to take  this down. 

[wired]

Mitch makes my finger itch. GLAZIER 1165 Merrillville

[wax_worm]

This is the problem is that in this county nobody wants to discuss these things.  People just go with the flow.  That is what gets this state and country in so much trouble.  People just vote and have no idea what they are voting for.  That is why this right to work is so important to discuss.  We can discuss so many other things that are important.  I teach government and I plead to my students to vote.  I never tell them who to vote for or who I am going to vote for. I teach them what actually the officals are saying, so they can make an accurate choice when they vote.  I would wager to say 75 percent of people in this state have no idea what right to work is.  Governor Daniels state of the union had good points and points that werent so good.  He has done a great job for the hunter and fisherman in gaining access.  He has been the worst thing to happen in education in a really long time.  We are losing tons of great teachers every year, because his administration has hurt the education system so much.  I am teaching in a school that has no A/C and is is falling apart.  People say we dont need A/C in schools.  When it is over 80 degrees outside it is 90 in my room.  It was 95.6 degrees in my room last year.   I appreciate Hoosier allowing this thread up.  I am happy to see all the replies and views.  If people dont want to reply or view dont click on it.  No reason to take  this down.

Honest question.....Where do you expect the money to come for education?  The state does not have it.  The Feds have cut way back on education funding to the states.  The property tax cap and down economy have reduced the amount of money the local communities and State has to operate.  Unlike the Federal Govt. Mitch and his administration prefer to work WITHIN a budget that does not put the state in the RED like the previous administration did year after year.  There are only about 12 or so states that ended 2011 with a budget surplus.  Indiana is one of those states and has set 50 million aside to help districts hardest hit by the prop tax caps.  They have to apply for the money if they need it.

Help me understand this.  How is that places like Ft wayne and south bend and others never have money for upkeep of schools yet other communities (usually smaller) have very nice schools that are well maintained?  I thought money from the state is allocated on a per student basis that is equal across the state.  Is it the disrict school board that wastes the funding in the larger cities?  Are there too many schools in the district for the tax base that is supporting them?  Is it the inner city residents pay much less in prop taxes and that affects the operating budget in the bigger city districts vs. the rural districts?

[pipeboy98]

There might be a lot of pages in this thread, but this is nothing compared to the amount we had last year when the governor of WI Scott walker eliminated the collective bargaining rights for all state employees!  Up until this thread i didn't even know Indiana was thinking of going right to work, whereas at this point last year the national news was all over Madison filming the protesters.

[UP jigstick]

There might be a lot of pages in this thread, but this is nothing compared to the amount we had last year when the governor of WI Scott walker eliminated the collective bargaining rights for all state employees!  Up until this thread i didn't even know Indiana was thinking of going right to work, whereas at this point last year the national news was all over Madison filming the protesters.

Ya Wi. got a lot of the headlines, but I remember the Ind. Dem. legislators left the state too the first time they tried pushing through the RTW legislation. I wonder how many of these Rep. governors would have won in the 2010 election if they had run on what they actually intended to do, once elected.

[Left/Center]

Ya Wi. got a lot of the headlines, but I remember the Ind. Dem. legislators left the state too the first time they tried pushing through the RTW legislation. I wonder how many of these Rep. governors would have won in the 2010 election if they had run on what they actually intended to do, once elected.

NONE!!!

[Boomer]

Wax_worm - money for schools in Indiana are not equally divided between school districts on a per student basis. Some school systems get a lot more money than others. Being in a smaller school system, we get less money but still have to have maintain buildings and such. Those costs go up every year but the money doesn't always follow. Some school systems with increasing enrollment actually have less money per student. Very weird formula used to allocate funds.

[wax_worm]

Wax_worm - money for schools in Indiana are not equally divided between school districts on a per student basis. Some school systems get a lot more money than others. Being in a smaller school system, we get less money but still have to have maintain buildings and such. Those costs go up every year but the money doesn't always follow. Some school systems with increasing enrollment actually have less money per student. Very weird formula used to allocate funds.

Isn't is based on enrollment?  Larger districts get more money due to larger enrollments.  Isn't that how it works?  I know there is some stupid clause in there about the money is 3 years behind or something like that.  In other words if a bunch of students leave one district to go to another, the money for those students deos not immediately follow for like 3 years.  A smaller school system with less kids should get less money since there are less buildings, maintenence, and other overhead.  But a large influx of students to a smaller distict could have a big impact if the funds are indeed delayed for 3 years.  I am just curious as to what the underlying issue is with the larger city schools seeming to be the ones that are falling apart and have huge budget shortfalls.  I assume it is related to the city residents and less of a property tax base, but maybe not.  Anyone know the answer?.

[BIGKAT9]

Maybe the state can fund education with the 320 million that sat for 2 years [online tax payment by corparations that didn't get credited to general fund ] the state took over  education an cut funding by 300 million .

[BIGKAT9]

The Unions and  large Corporations are probably the biggest contributors to a politician's campaign.  We know that these donations influence their decisions.  It would be nice to elect someone who actually has the common people's best interest in mind. (Ha...I must be dreaming)  I also think there should be limits on how much a politician can spend on his/her campaign....it would level the field and give the common sense guy a chance at getting elected.

The two partys wont allow it ,look up Buddy Roemer ,former gov  LA. .he wont take corprate money .he couldn't even get on the debates his  max contribution 100.00

[BIGKAT9]

just fyi....yes they have to set up a pac fund which is voluntary...but when i got out of day school right before they let us become apprentices...they set all 20 of us down in a room with 4 of the main guys running the local and the pac and explained to us that we "needed to do this for our best interest".  very intimidating to a new graduate with his whole career in front of him.  miraculously all 20 of us signed the paperwork. it wasn't until years later after i turned out as a journeyman that  i began digging to see where the money went.  finding it not to be agreeable to my personal political views i went in and filled out more paperwork to stop donating. 

it all seems so benign when you say big whoop it's only 5 cents an hour....but run the math.  a 1000 man local ideally works 2000 hours per year at .o5 cents donated.  that's $100k per year!!!  that's just for one local for one trade, and I'd say the 1000 man local might be a little low on the average amount of guys per local.  then factor in the non building trades unions that are doing the same thing...teachers, city, state, county workers, teamsters, food and commercial workers....you are talking big bucks.

like i said money is the mothers milk of politics...be like the IRS....and just follow the money!

As i posted before i'm a Boilermake local  374 we cover state .been doing it 30 years ,before pac politicans wouldn't talk to you

[blackbear]

When is this going to stop............I will finally say it, the unions are the reasons the whole country is in the shape we are in,   if you do your job, why do you need someone to protect you. And I won't post anymore on this subject. I know this will get a bunch of replies, but I am just saying what about half of you are wanting to. This is a fishing site not a political site...... or so I thought.

[BIGKAT9]

When is this going to stop............I will finally say it, the unions are the reasons the whole country is in the shape we are in,   if you do your job, why do you need someone to protect you. And I won't post anymore on this subject. I know this will get a bunch of replies, but I am just saying what about half of you are wanting to. This is a fishing site not a political site...... or so I thought.

Just waiting on the ice

[bassman508]

If this passes the Mitch will want Pensions next! 

[rico]

This issue is so complex it makes your head spin like Linda Blair in the "Excorsist".  Lots of points to consider.  But at the end of the day it is a political battle. 

[wheatfield Tom]

I have to agree, mostly political.  Not sure why unions are the reason for the whole country- If someone could enlighten me I might understand.

I had (and still have) a choice between a steak and a big mac, I took the steak. I understand everyone needs to work union or not, union is the better choice in my trade.

What I don't understand is why someone would try to bring others down rather than raise themselves. Mostly jelousy I have to think.   (People making 100k a year doing nothing)

Plumbers local 210

[abishop]

I definately must of gotten in the wrong trade. This 100K that is thrown out there is a pipe dream. Even if you work 52 weeks a year at 40 hours a week it is only around 65K. Take out holidays, sick days, rain outs than what is left. You do the math.

[BIGKAT9]

Yes rico it is a political issue ,but it will effect a lot of people, i wish it was as easy do a good job an you'd  have nothing to worry about but  this is2012  , what gets me is 90 %of the american workforce is non union.10%Is  an corparate america along with their bought an paid for politicans want it all . Not only proud to be union lucky as well.

[wheatfield Tom]

Abishop, I was not saying I make that but was refering to an earlier post.

[h2.0shaver]

When is this going to stop............I will finally say it, the unions are the reasons the whole country is in the shape we are in,   if you do your job, why do you need someone to protect you. And I won't post anymore on this subject. I know this will get a bunch of replies, but I am just saying what about half of you are wanting to. This is a fishing site not a political site...... or so I thought.

Its your choice to read and reply or pass this post up. I see although that people like you enjoy regulated things. Just take orders. No Thanks for me.

[frozengator]

When is this going to stop............I will finally say it, the unions are the reasons the whole country is in the shape we are in,   if you do your job, why do you need someone to protect you. And I won't post anymore on this subject. I know this will get a bunch of replies, but I am just saying what about half of you are wanting to. This is a fishing site not a political site...... or so I thought.

No its not if you do your job, it is if you have your nose up the boss's Arse and and lips planted tightly is were you get somewhere any more without UNION.  Trust me I see it every day!!!

[coopason]

When is this going to stop............I will finally say it, the unions are the reasons the whole country is in the shape we are in.

Corporate GREED is a huge factor in why the good old USA is the way it has become.
Politicians who become lifers would be next (line their pockets).
Jealousy is another (Keeping up with the Jones)

amazingly were still civil on this topic on page 9

Thanks

Ron

[kcskypilot]

I have a strong opinion of where unions should or should not fit in our society. But no matter which side of the isle you sit on, I'll still fish with you!

One more thing, if you're passionate about American jobs, union or not, look at where your ice fishing gear was made.

I pullled a Made in China sticker off of my Genz stick!

[Bronzeback5]

Not jealousy here Tom. Speaking of bringing somebody down to raise themselves... Long time ago we seen an outrageous example of the grip these unions have on our political system. When GM went bankrupt and billions were handed over to the UAW, which single-handedly brought an American icon of a company to it's knees. When investors got zilch (that's zero) and bondholders got peanuts. Those are real living people that worked hard for their money just like we do, and it was smuggled into the hands of the UAW and union workers in hopes they will return the favor come election time. I know all of the trades guy's will say you can't compare this situation to my union, but i believe we have seen alot of the same going on. Lot's of folks are hurting out there but the money is flowing to keep the chosen working.


I happen to have a decent job myself and wish nothing but the best for everyone else. Just like y'all, i want a fair wage and compensation for my labor. Might have come across wrong with my comments about the wages of the union workers i am seeing, but it would take more time than i care to waste to fully explain myself. In short, the only difference i see is the unions entanglement with politics and the money circle that none of you can deny. Nobody's fault but all of ours. I am given the choice to support a system like this nowhere in my daily life, rather this choice is made for me everyday via the tax dollars coming out of my check. My schools and public buildings, roads and infrastructure, energy, etc, etc... All the areas that the union's are heavily involved. 


I am aware of what organized labor has done in history for American workers with regards to fair compensation, workers rights, safety, etc... I have no doubt if my employer was to be unionized, it would be the start of a rapid decline in profitability and success of a currently healthy and growing company. That alone tells me something and the answer probably lies somewhere in between.


And Al, i sure hope you were not planning on being the voice for the ice-fishing union. Imagine if a company were to find a whole big bunch of those pesky newbies that do twice the work of a veteran like yourself..... Good Gravy LOL



Quote from Al..

"There is always someone younger, and more productive than one of us older members. Or someone who has been working non-union, who just became organized and is doing the work of 2 men. Just saying, there are no guarantees you will keep your job."

[Yogi]

Wax you are wrong.  We have about 800 less students than Indianapolis, but get about 3/4 of the funding that Indianapolis has.  Education system must have get funding from the state.  The state says it is out of money.  The state just found 300 million dollars.  Why would we not give that money to education.  Why is one of the first things we cut education.  We waste millions of dollars on road projects and other things.  The most important thing is education.  We have to educate the youth across the state.  Those are the young people coming up behind us.  I invite anybody to come with me for one day, and you will see how funding could really help the education!  We have a system that fails the students.  That system was created by the government.  It is very sad.  I have kids in 8th grade that cant read or write. 

[abishop]

Not jealousy here Tom. Speaking of bringing somebody down to raise themselves... Long time ago we seen an outrageous example of the grip these unions have on our political system. When GM went bankrupt and billions were handed over to the UAW, which single-handedly brought an American icon of a company to it's knees. When investors got zilch (that's zero) and bondholders got peanuts. Those are real living people that worked hard for their money just like we do, and it was smuggled into the hands of the UAW and union workers in hopes they will return the favor come election time. I know all of the trades guy's will say you can't compare this situation to my union, but i believe we have seen alot of the same going on. Lot's of folks are hurting out there but the money is flowing to keep the chosen working.


I happen to have a decent job myself and wish nothing but the best for everyone else. Just like y'all, i want a fair wage and compensation for my labor. Might have come across wrong with my comments about the wages of the union workers i am seeing, but it would take more time than i care to waste to fully explain myself. In short, the only difference i see is the unions entanglement with politics and the money circle that none of you can deny. Nobody's fault but all of ours. I am given the choice to support a system like this nowhere in my daily life, rather this choice is made for me everyday via the tax dollars coming out of my check. My schools and public buildings, roads and infrastructure, energy, etc, etc... All the areas that the union's are heavily involved. 


I am aware of what organized labor has done in history for American workers with regards to fair compensation, workers rights, safety, etc... I have no doubt if my employer was to be unionized, it would be the start of a rapid decline in profitability and success of a currently healthy and growing company. That alone tells me something and the answer probably lies somewhere in between.


And Al, i sure hope you were not planning on being the voice for the ice-fishing union. Imagine if a company were to find a whole big bunch of those pesky newbies that do twice the work of a veteran like yourself..... Good Gravy LOL


LMAO, hello coffee breaks and big fish tails.
Quote from Al..

"There is always someone younger, and more productive than one of us older members. Or someone who has been working non-union, who just became organized and is doing the work of 2 men. Just saying, there are no guarantees you will keep your job."

[wax_worm]

Wax you are wrong.  We have about 800 less students than Indianapolis, but get about 3/4 of the funding that Indianapolis has.  Education system must have get funding from the state.  The state says it is out of money.  The state just found 300 million dollars.  Why would we not give that money to education.  Why is one of the first things we cut education.  We waste millions of dollars on road projects and other things.  The most important thing is education.  We have to educate the youth across the state.  Those are the young people coming up behind us.  I invite anybody to come with me for one day, and you will see how funding could really help the education!  We have a system that fails the students.  That system was created by the government.  It is very sad.  I have kids in 8th grade that cant read or write.

I may be wrong, but you did not answer my question or explain how..  Why does FT wayne gets 3/4 of the money indy does when the diff is only 800 students?  There has to be a reason.  Also, not all money for education comes from the state.  Local property taxes have a portion cut out for local schools.  Is your tax base dwindling there or is it so many kids come from the inner city and public housing that there is a shortfall in property taxes. 

Throwing more money at schools is not going to make a kid in the 8th grade suddenly learn to read or write.  It had been done uncontrolled for years when the state was deep in the RED and despite the ton of cash spent, little to no improvement was achieved in alot of the districts clammoring for cash.  You want more classrooms?  More teachers?  Paid tutors?  None of it will matter when the kids spends 8 hours a day in school and simply does not care.  The other 16 hours a day he is worrying about how to survive, get some food, stay warm, and not get shot at and sleep.  How in the hell is he in the 8th grade in the first place if he can't read or write?  Can you answer that?  This kid has been let down by his parents and the whoever in the district that just pushed him up the chain to the next grade.  I think every kid deserves a chance to succeed in school and every kid has the ability to do so IF THEY WANT TO LEARN.  Without family support and a desire to get out of the projects or make a better life for yourself, no amount of money is going to make these types of kids into scholars when they just don't care.  Where my son attends HS, there are over 430 kids in his grade.  There are dropouts, kids on drugs, kids that are failiing or struggle, kids that do OK and kids that excel.  There are 20 kids of that 430 that have GPA's over 4.0 on a 4.0 scale because of taking AP courses and IB coures which are wieghted more over normal classes.  These 20 kids are a mix of white, hispanic, exchange students, girls and boys, some from families with money and others on free and reduced lunches.  When the kid makes the decision that education is important, it can be done regardless of background, but their background, which is 100% out of the control of the schools and state, can greatly affect the decision to educate oneself.

I am not attacking teachers here, but making the point that there is a track record of throwing tons of cash at schools in this state and others and getting little to nothing in return.  The state needs to see a ROI just like any business that only has X amount of dollars and many things that need money.  The definitiion of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.  I don't have the answer, but I do know dumping tons more cash into education can not happen with out measurable results.  Otherwise it is just a money pit and money is too tight to throw any of it away without results of some kind.  Since your distict is inner city, you likely have an impossible challenge to meet any measurable required vs. the more rural districts.  That is not fair, but the education issues in this state (and country) go far beyond being solved by dumping cash into them.

[UP jigstick]

wax_worm

 This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I understand your position that 'throwing more money at schools' isn't going to fix the problems in education and even agree with it, to a point. What would you propose we do to fix the education system for ours and future children?

[wax_worm]

wax_worm

 This has been a very interesting thread to follow. I understand your position that 'throwing more money at schools' isn't going to fix the problems in education and even agree with it, to a point. What would you propose we do to fix the education system for ours and future children?

UP,

I wish I had the answer to that.  I really think education starts at home.  Kids are impressionable.  If they see their parent or parents living off govt. handouts and getting by with no education in their history, the kids grow up thinking they can do the same.  It is a vicious cycle that tends to repeat itself over generations.  Those parents that themselves placed no value in an education and pass those values on to their kids are a big part of the problem.  I think when kids see parents working hard, caring about them and their future and showing them life is not about handouts, gangs, drugs, etc., but working for what you have, being proud of what you accomplish, valuing a HS diploma and a college degree, those kids apply themselves in school.  Not all kids are rocket scientists, but I don't believe any child (that is not mentally retarded) that really tries is incapable of learning and graduation from HS.  You don't have to have a big house, nice cars or fancy stuff to encourage your kids to go to school, stay in school and educate themselves.  Anyone capable of having kids can talk to their kids about education and it's values.  I know how I grew up and I told my parents I didn't want to work in a factory and stuggle with 3 kids like they did.  My parents stressed learning and going to college and that is what I did.  I do the same with my kids and hope they land better jobs than I have and continue with their kids (if they have any). 

Schools and teachers (in general) are not the problem with education in this country.  The problems start before the kids even get to schools by what they see, get and learn at home and are worsened by all the govt. saftey nets that diminish the value of being educated with at least a HS diploma.  The law can force kids to attend, but can't force them to apply themselves and learn.  That has to come from within or from home and in too many places in this state and across the country, parents are failing thier kids and dumping them onto the school systems for free meals and child care.  Throwing money at the schools can not correct that problem.  When I went to school, they served lunch.  Today they serve breakfast, lunch and an after school meal at some places!  Since when did the schools become responsible for providing 3 meals a day?  Some schools even provide lunch during the summer months.  When did schools become a food bank?  Where are the parents?  Imagine the money spent on these extra meals instead of maintenence, new books, libraries, computers, etc.  School should not be and can not be another welfare department for the kids of illegal immigrants, kids of parents unwilling to work, and kids of lifelong welfare recipients, but this country has allowed them to become that.  The kids deserve better from their parents and the parents should be deported, or jailed for neglect in alot of cases.  There is no easy answer, but to tax you and I more just to throw more money at schools and hope things change is not the solution and this has been proven time and time again.