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Author Topic: The war on warm water species continues.  (Read 3966 times)

Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #30 on: Mar 28, 2019, 11:54 AM »
This has got to be the most ignorant thread I've ever seen....  Go catch a fish and quit arguing like teenage girls....
sexist remark
fish till it hurts then fish some more

Offline Cornbread

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #31 on: Mar 28, 2019, 02:15 PM »
Next thing you know they will be accusing the cattle ranchers of colluding with Russia.

Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #32 on: Mar 28, 2019, 04:41 PM »
Next thing you know they will be accusing the cattle ranchers of colluding with Russia.
there is no collusion! dasvidaniya.
fish till it hurts then fish some more

Offline Elkhnter

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #33 on: Mar 28, 2019, 05:43 PM »
I find it funny that the same problems you folks in Montana are having the Wyoming G&F are doing the same thing or have the same mentality. Its all about the "TROUT" and they could give a crap about any other species..

You know what most fisher folks want- To catch something different than a damn trout!! They are trying to eradicate Walleyes from buffalo bill reservoir by Cody Wyoming. Do they not think the lake trout that are in there are not non native as well and trust me there are some 35+ pounders that i'm sure eat plenty of cutthroat trout they are trying to save. I think all western g/f agencies trout is the only thing in the world that matters.. COME ON!!

Ok, enough about that.. Enjoy the great outdoors before someone messing up even more than it already is!!!
Marvin

Offline RuralMT

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #34 on: Mar 29, 2019, 12:26 AM »
So far, folks have ridiculed Wenger for his defense of guiding and the wealth it brings into the state.  While it might fall short of the roughly $4 billion (quoting Cornbread here) brought in by the livestock industry, are you willing to denigrate roughly a quarter of that amount?  $790 million is nothing to shake a stick at, and regardless of where it ranks, represents a sizable chunk of our state's revenue.  Ask yourself, are you angry with the presence of the guides or the simple increase in traffic?  I'm not bothering to look up population growth but I think it's safe to say that both Helena and Great Falls have grown substantially in the last 50 years.  Yes, the presence of guides has increased, but has the presence of regular joe-shmoes such as myself (who until a year ago owned a used, leaking, eye-sore of a drift boat) not increased as well?  Not every boat in the armadas floating down the Missouri, Yellowstone, Big Hole, Beaverhead, and Big Horn are guided trips I can assure you. I floated my old beater down them all!

And as far as guides go, I don't think you should judge them in such blanket fashion.  I distinctly remember the moment I quit hating the idea of guides.  I had hoofed it more than a mile upstream from an access point on the upper Bitterroot.  Having arrived at the river before dawn, hiked upstream, and settled in to fish a series of cherry runs/holes I (incorrectly) assumed I'd have the hole to myself for a while.  However, within the first hour I watched 3 guides float by and had to reel up as their clients fished my spot. You can imagine my anger as the fourth boat heads downstream shortly thereafter, but my mood switched instantly as I overheard the guide telling his two clients to reel up, because I'd beaten them to that run.  I'd like to shake that guy's hand; he acknowledged the effort I made to get to that spot and proved to me that at least one of them treated others the way he'd like to be treated.

What's more, someone else attacked guides for making a living off a natural resource.  Really?  Are you willing to apply the same standard to the logging and mining industries, both of which attempt to capitalize on natural resources as well?  I understand the sentiment driving the adjective, but sellout seems a bit harsh. 

Offline Quantoson

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #35 on: Mar 29, 2019, 07:33 AM »
LOL, guides are the true hot spotters.  ;D  Sell the hot spot of the locals for a bill and and a tip.   >:D  Then call themselves true ecologist and conservationist.  ::)

 
wish you many hook-ups

Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #36 on: Mar 29, 2019, 09:21 AM »
Like to be a fly on the wall of any ranchers house that read this. Hope that $400 + per didn't harm your business too bad. What an f-ing joke.

2017, total value of beef cattle sold was 1.4 billion.   Outfitting had a direct economic impact of 1.8 billion. 

As for all of you vehemently anti guide and thuis anti fellow fisherman (client), will you are not only bitter but also selfish as very quick to criticize a whole group of people, both guides and clients who you do not know nothing about except they are "rich" .  You have exposed yourself as such.   Good luck.

Offline Born Late

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #37 on: Mar 29, 2019, 09:48 AM »
So far, folks have ridiculed Wenger for his defense of guiding and the wealth it brings into the state...

What's more, someone else attacked guides for making a living off a natural resource.  Really?  Are you willing to apply the same standard to the logging and mining industries, both of which attempt to capitalize on natural resources as well?   

Letís be clear. Trout fishing brings wealth into the state. Guides are a product of trout fishing, not vice versa. Local guides admit the day is coming when floating limits will be needed on the Mo. They donít pretend crowding isnít an issue. They donít, however, attempt to forward an agenda by whining about fictitious burdensome costs of permitting and paperwork associated with guiding. Consequently, I have no problem with the majority of guides. Yes, I believe they and miners and loggers should be regulated and pay for their use of public resources. Crazy, huh.

Iím not opposed to guiding. Iím not disputing what appears to be conflicting management with regard to the bass issue in the original post. However, I canít ignore the recognizable plop of steaming horse apples being presented to generate anti-FWP sentiment.
YOU are the only one who can decide if the ice is safe enough for you.

Offline Cornbread

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #38 on: Mar 29, 2019, 10:14 AM »
2017, total value of beef cattle sold was 1.4 billion.   Outfitting had a direct economic impact of 1.8 billion. 

This is a perfect example of the logical fallacy called "False equivalence", it is used to try and win arguments when the actual facts don't support your argument.

I'll explain why for anyone who didn't pick it out right off the bat. These two figures "total value sold" and "direct economic impact" are completely non-equivalent. Also ranching isn't just beef cattle, just like outfitting isn't just fishing. To the first point, direct sales of cattle is just that, a direct sale, the equivalent number would be direct sales of guided fishing trips. Just the price of the trip that is it. So, you can see there are two instances of false equivalence in just that one statement.

If you want to compare equivalent numbers compare the economic impact of all livestock ranching within the state to the economic impact of all outfitting within the state. That is what I did in my original example.

Also cite your sources when you post statistics because anyone can pull numbers out of the air or post generalities that have no peer reviewed and or supporting data.

As far as my personal opinion goes I like the outfitting industry in our state and I am glad it is here. What I don't like are poor arguments that are unsupported by the real facts in the matter at hand. I don't want FWP killing off the walleye I fish for in Noxon so I do have have a dog in the warm water vs trout fight and the only way to win that battle is by presenting factual evidence that accurately supports the cause. Poor arguments and bad data just distract from the real conversation and lead the discussion into devolving into ad hominem attacks and so on where nothing gets solved.

Offline fridayfish

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #39 on: Mar 29, 2019, 11:37 AM »
"You know what most fisher folks want- To catch something different than a damn trout!!"...says the poor wyomian who takes for granted clean cool water flowing out of every nearby drainage. everywhere else in the country the water is slow and brown supporting your beloveds. the grass is always greener on the other side.

its too bad the majority of cattle foraging our public lands in Montana is being sold to china. and our local stores are selling beef from cramped little pens from back east and who no where. I would venture to say Montana beef is the best in the world. they sure look healthy and tasty out in these wide open pastures. and I wouldn't mind stepping around them often and their piles and hounds tongue patches if I knew they were gonna end up in our own stores. I see local beef is for sale at high prices at local markets. does china have to pay those same high prices?I am fairly ignorant about this but this is something I have heard and it is disappointing. lets sell china our Chicago beef and keep the Montana beef in Montana. this should probably be a separate thread for a separate forum though...now what else to complain about?




Offline Wenger

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #40 on: Mar 29, 2019, 11:42 AM »
Letís be clear. Trout fishing brings wealth into the state. Guides are a product of trout fishing, not vice versa. Local guides admit the day is coming when floating limits will be needed on the Mo. They donít pretend crowding isnít an issue. They donít, however, attempt to forward an agenda by whining about fictitious burdensome costs of permitting and paperwork associated with guiding. Consequently, I have no problem with the majority of guides. Yes, I believe they and miners and loggers should be regulated and pay for their use of public resources. Crazy, huh.

Iím not opposed to guiding. Iím not disputing what appears to be conflicting management with regard to the bass issue in the original post. However, I canít ignore the recognizable plop of steaming horse apples being presented to generate anti-FWP sentiment.

I was not using permitting as an agenda. I was asked what fees were involved.  If you knew me you would know that I don't whine. So please keep it factual.

Offline PerchPounderMT

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #41 on: Mar 29, 2019, 04:48 PM »
What we are opposed to is the impact the trout tards are having on the way the MT f&g is managing our fisheries.Mining and logging money doesnt determine what species of fish we get to have in our lakes and rivers.
Dont ask

Offline PerchPounderMT

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #42 on: Mar 29, 2019, 05:00 PM »
Next thing you know they will be accusing the cattle ranchers of colluding with Russia.
The "new green deal" will fix em.
Dont ask

Offline oldschoolben

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #43 on: Mar 30, 2019, 04:54 PM »
I can only comment on whst its like where I live but here In the bitterroot there are too many guides,  I realize that it brings in money for the local businesses, but it sucks for the local fisherman ,unfortunately  a large majority of the guides only concern is getting a client fish even if it means intruding on your area , I haven't fished the Bitterroot river in years for 2 reasons  the guides and I would rather chace warm water fish

Offline PerchPounderMT

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #44 on: Mar 30, 2019, 05:06 PM »
I can only comment on whst its like where I live but here In the bitterroot there are too many guides,  I realize that it brings in money for the local businesses, but it sucks for the local fisherman ,unfortunately  a large majority of the guides only concern is getting a client fish even if it means intruding on your area , I haven't fished the Bitterroot river in years for 2 reasons  the guides and I would rather chace warm water fish
Same reason I gave up fly fishing.
Dont ask

Offline Quantoson

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #45 on: Mar 31, 2019, 07:25 AM »
Same reason I gave up fly fishing.

I don't fly fish cause the cut bait always flies off when whipping the fishing rod like a bullwhip.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline Cornbread

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #46 on: Mar 31, 2019, 09:10 AM »
I don't fly fish cause the cut bait always flies off when whipping the fishing rod like a bullwhip.

This cracked me up! When I was in my  mid 20s and going to University, I was fishing a small river in Oregon with my brother and we had only brought fly rods and the trout weren't taking flies so I tied on a bait hook and put a worm and some sinkers on it. Ended up limiting out just plunking that bait rigged fly rod setup into holes along the river.

Offline Quantoson

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #47 on: Mar 31, 2019, 11:38 AM »
I remember plunking baits when I was real young.  Dad had bought 5 bamboo poles, one for each of us, that were longer than the head ache rack on his International pickup.  He would tie line on the ends and we would just roll the pole to reel the line up and vice versa.  With a fish on, once we rolled up enough line, we would lift the pole up and the fish would swing in to the bank right at us.

Don't know how many times I caught a cat fish and almost Steve Irwin-d myself.  Good old times they were.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline BoomerFTW

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #48 on: Apr 01, 2019, 10:27 AM »
I don't fly fish cause the cut bait always flies off when whipping the fishing rod like a bullwhip.

 ;D ;D ;D This one made me laugh haha

Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #49 on: Apr 04, 2019, 05:56 PM »
this thread started out with a legitimate concern..and turned into an ultimate shi? show...how are we gonna manage the fisheries? when there is such a knee jerk...uneducated...RA CIST...and depressing response....it started with a legitimate post about the current state of warm water fisheries..and turned into bashing guides....what a joke....but I think in some ways wenger brought it on to himself....as much as I agree with so much he says...hit a hornets nest..expect to get stung....no matter how solid your position..i grew up with cows...in many ways...ranchers are the ultimate liberal but yet conservationists....su re I know the whole spiel....I don't want cows degrading the slopes and water qualities of riparian zones..of course...but when you brought cows up?....its touchy....when I was young..we had 300 head on 1500 acres.. I know the time has changed...warm water fisheries management...was the issue that you brought up....not cows..or guides....cows and guides should be shared for another post....

Offline Quantoson

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #50 on: Apr 04, 2019, 06:52 PM »
this thread started out with a legitimate concern..and turned into an ultimate shi? show...how are we gonna manage the fisheries? when there is such a knee jerk...uneducated...RA CIST...and depressing response....it started with a legitimate post about the current state of warm water fisheries..and turned into bashing guides....what a joke....but I think in some ways wenger brought it on to himself....as much as I agree with so much he says...hit a hornets nest..expect to get stung....no matter how solid your position..i grew up with cows...in many ways...ranchers are the ultimate liberal but yet conservationists....su re I know the whole spiel....I don't want cows degrading the slopes and water qualities of riparian zones..of course...but when you brought cows up?....its touchy....when I was young..we had 300 head on 1500 acres.. I know the time has changed...warm water fisheries management...was the issue that you brought up....not cows..or guides....cows and guides should be shared for another post....

I missed the "RACIST" part.  Did I miss it somewhere and over read it?  You had the right ratio of cows to acre tho, 5 acres to one head.  As for the guides, both hunting and fishing.  They always try to get some resolution or special reg passed so they and only them and their guests have access to fishing holes on rivers.  Bogus.  That these guides get special access for out of staters...Bogus!  I love and care for this Great State but special interest from all corners are coming in and assisting the removal of the lay man's right's to fish, access, hunt, and have priority over out of staters.  Bogus!

Fishing guides give up the hot spots to anyone who will line their pockets but then ditch on poor BoomFTW for flying a kite with a camera.  Go figure.  Then some guy narrates the genetics of the Bull trout and adaptation to certain environments and how fragile, one degree temp can wipe them out.  Bull Corn and Bogus!  The Bull trout in the Koocanusa run the rivers in Canada and ran the rivers in Montana before Koocanusa was a reservoir.  What happened to the genetics theory there?  It's bloody bogus! 

Anyway, one cow to five acres is a great ratio.
wish you many hook-ups

Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #51 on: Apr 04, 2019, 07:31 PM »
...I worked many years installing million dollar homes with amazing landscapes..money makes money sometimes...so I get it...but... in my opinion guides are not hot spotting..do you really think that the people that guides are bringing in will ever will put extra pressure on the local fisherman? they won't and never will...those type of clients will never go out and fish on their own....just like the carpenter that builds their house..the guides that charge these rich dudes $500 a day...will never see them when the day is done or maybe twice a year...no hotspotting...actually ..guides are more tight lipped than your average yahoo....I suppose in an ideal world it would be nice to have just a couple days a week where they aren't clogging the river up tho...

Offline Quantoson

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #53 on: Apr 06, 2019, 03:23 PM »
http://www.freerangereport.com/big-tourism-kills-traditional-industries-and-now-its-killing-the-environment/

Surprisingly, others think the same as I, although the article was written more diplomatically than I would have expressed.  I bookmarked that site.

Thanks MT204! ;D
wish you many hook-ups

Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #54 on: Apr 06, 2019, 11:18 PM »
the "RASCIST" aspect I was referring to Q is the way some come down with such heavy hatred on trout and the people that enjoy catching them.....

Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #55 on: Apr 07, 2019, 12:07 AM »
when people say the reason that they gave up fly fishin..is because rich snooty people ruined it for them ..are turds...don't blame it on the trout.....it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..40 yrs ago..and still the same today...if the haters would ever read a book..read..or re read..the river why...I am currently drowning smelt..the most red kneck way to harvest some pike meat..but I am also casting flies and getting into spring browns,,,,yes...snooty rich trout fisherman are one thing..but to say that's why you don't fly fish anymore? means you are lazy....and have no confidence in your own skill that you need a bucket of worms and a 12 pack of beer to catch a fish....

Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #56 on: Apr 07, 2019, 05:11 AM »
when people..(poop pounder) say the reason that they gave up fly fishin..is because rich snooty people ruined it for them ..are turds...don't blame it on the trout.....it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..40 yrs ago..and still the same today...if the haters would ever read a book..read..or re read..the river why...I am currently drowning smelt..the most red kneck way to harvest some pike meat..but I am also casting flies and getting into spring browns,,,,yes...snooty rich trout fisherman are one thing..but to say that's why you don't fly fish anymore? means you are lazy..blaming others for your own shortcomings...and have no confidence in your own skill that you need a bucket of worms and a 12 pack of beer to catch a fish....
it is a hell of allot more relaxing with a bucket of worms and a 12 pack then standing in the water swinging a bamboo stick in the air for hours.anybody can fish on a fly but it takes skill to land a fish after a 12 pack.
fish till it hurts then fish some more

Offline Quantoson

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #57 on: Apr 07, 2019, 06:20 AM »
it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..

Al Akhbar!  :roflmao:

I'm with hoofer.  I like letting the worms soak in some Corona for a bit, then put them on a hook, then the worm dances the Mexican hat dance on the hook while singing La Cucaracha.  Catches fish.  ;D
wish you many hook-ups

Offline coldcreekchris

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #58 on: Apr 07, 2019, 09:40 AM »
you have a  good point hoofer.....and I never tried the soaking of  worms in corona like Q suggests.. guess there are always two sides to the conversation....

Offline hoofer

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Re: The war on warm water species continues.
« Reply #59 on: Apr 07, 2019, 10:19 AM »
you have a  good point hoofer.....and I never tried the soaking of  worms in corona like Q suggests.. guess there are always two sides to the conversation....
1 for the worms and 1 or more for me.just be careful which one you drink after bit they all look the same.

fish till it hurts then fish some more

 



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