Author Topic: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?  (Read 3755 times)

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #30 on: Feb 04, 2019, 06:38 AM »
We really need a face palm emoji on this site  ::) doesn't quite cut it..

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #31 on: Feb 05, 2019, 07:41 AM »
esox xtm has almost converted me to using wire.hard to do when ive had 2 or 3 breakoffs using 20 or 25 pound mono going on 30 years.i ordered some afw 7 strand this morning,and will use his tool and make up some leaders.im stubborn and get stuck in what works for me but ill expand some other proven techniques.

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #32 on: Feb 05, 2019, 08:15 AM »
No sin in going with what you know Doc. That why everyone has a different opinion. They're all based on our experiences and everyone has a different experience, some very different. The more experience backing your opinion, the stronger that opinion is, diminishing the likelihood of change. That's the way the world works.

I like to try to keep my mind open so I don't miss anything. In fact, I'm being challenged right now to re-visit light fluoro (like 20#) for live baiting pike. It's gonna be hard but perhaps the right location will make a difference. I got cut off three times fishing in heavy weeds before I even got to the tippy. Just the fish taking evasive maneuvers through the salad created enough pressure to cut me off. Open water might be a different story...

I'll never change my tune on superline/"braid" for pike leaders though.
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Offline Iceassin

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #33 on: Feb 05, 2019, 08:22 AM »
esox xtm has almost converted me to using wire.hard to do when ive had 2 or 3 breakoffs using 20 or 25 pound mono going on 30 years.i ordered some afw 7 strand this morning,and will use his tool and make up some leaders.im stubborn and get stuck in what works for me but ill expand some other proven techniques.

First time using this year for me Doc. 13# 7-strand...13# pike. No more mono or fluoro for me. This stuff delivered. Esox knows what he's talking about .
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Offline PikeKing23

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #34 on: Feb 05, 2019, 09:52 AM »
Yes, everyone has opinions, but let's not forget there are also things out there like Science and Psychics.  Hold a taught braided line and run it gently over a sharp knife to see how easily it breaks.  Then do the same thing with the same pound test fluorocarbon (leader material).  You will find that the braid will easily break while the flouro will hold up.  This is common knowledge people, based on the properties of the materials.  It's not like Esox and myself are telling you that the world is flat. ;)

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #35 on: Feb 06, 2019, 08:54 AM »
ok esox xtm is this a decent method on twisting up wire?getting ready to twist some up when my afw 20# 7 strand gets here.also does the swivel twist on the same way?looks so dang easy!!now where did my wife put my twizzle stick?thats the hard part..finding it!lol.

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #36 on: Feb 06, 2019, 09:26 AM »
ok esox xtm is this a decent method on twisting up wire?getting ready to twist some up when my afw 20# 7 strand gets here.also does the swivel twist on the same way?looks so dang easy!!now where did my wife put my twizzle stick?thats the hard part..finding it!lol.

Yep! That's almost exactly what I do. I conserve wire by adjusting the tag so I don't have to trim excess. I also heat just the last 3/16" or so of the wire. Don't need a zillion twists either. As few as five works fine, most of mine run 7ish. I don't count, just leave 3/4 to and inch of tag and wrap it up. DON'T FORGET you need to go through the hook or swivel eye twice before twisting or your connection will almost certainly fail.

Swivels twist on the same way. You'll have to hook the twiddler (that's the way I learned it though I've heard it both ways) into the same eye the wire is in or it just, well, swivels. Due to the wire size I used in the tool it can be challenging with a small swivel. On the #8 SPRO Power Swivels I commonly use it takes a but of fiddling. Make sure the wire is tight in the eye and aligned then tip the hook on the twiddler a bit to engage the edge of the hook. There's plenty of room to work once in but it's not the easiest. I designed those before I went to the smaller swivels so it wasn't a problem. In retrospect I should have put a pencil point on the end. Then it would be EZPZ. If you have a mind you could take a small file or Dremel to the tool and "sharpen" it a bit. On very small hooks you can twist from the hook bend if the eye is too small.

The heat isn't really necessary but if you use heavier wire (30# and up) or are making lots of rigs (more than a half dozen or so) it helps. If you don't heat, when the wire comes around the last bit it tends to poke into your thumb or finger. heating anneals the wire without weakening it to allow it to wrap more "softly" if you will.
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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #37 on: Feb 06, 2019, 09:32 AM »
Ok.ill post some pics when i make them.going all out!both tipups with traces!!haha.thanks for your advice.

Offline Coachkwj

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #38 on: Feb 09, 2019, 08:34 AM »
I buy alot of gear from Harris Sportsmail in the UK and found a twiddle stick and scent and dye. Good prices and shipping is cheaper than US sites.
https://www.harrissportsmail.com/usa/predator-fishing-tackle/predator-accessories-136
Think I got the last twiddle stick because they show out of stock now.
Those guys are a bit ahead of the curve on this kind of stuff.
Got my eyes opened when I got into carp fishing and learned from a guy who lived in England most of his life.
I'm addicted to it now.
I know most people will say carp are trash fish but when I can drive 15 minutes to a river that doesn't get fished and catch 20 to 30 pound freight trains consistently count me in. Carp and some catfish are the only catchable fish in this river.
Story for another forum though.
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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #39 on: Feb 11, 2019, 12:36 PM »
So heres my first twist.its kind of janky at the hook eye.its hard to hold it all together while twisting.esox xtm is this strong enough to try?or am I wasting wire.lol.i  will get it down.maybe not this year.




Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #40 on: Feb 11, 2019, 01:08 PM »
So heres my first twist.its kind of janky at the hook eye.its hard to hold it all together while twisting.esox xtm is this strong enough to try?or am I wasting wire.lol.i  will get it down.maybe not this year.


Absolutely fine Doc. There's nothing wrong with those unless you are hopelessly OCD...  :whistle:  :roflmao:

You should have seen my first ones I made by the "twirling forceps" method. Janky doesn't even begin to cover some of those. Really, as long as you've got it through the eye twice and at least five wraps it doesn't matter how it looks (well, sort of  ::)) because the connection will be good.

You did a nice job for maiden voyage. Practice makes perfect.  :thumbsup: :clap:

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Offline PikeKing23

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #41 on: Feb 11, 2019, 01:16 PM »
Another little trick is for trimming the tag end - bend it back and forth until it breaks.  It will break right at the twist and not leave a sharp end to poke your finger.  I use single strand, though.  I don't know if it will work with multi strand.

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #42 on: Feb 11, 2019, 01:22 PM »
Absolutely fine Doc. There's nothing wrong with those unless you are hopelessly OCD...  :whistle:  :roflmao:

You should have seen my first ones I made by the "twirling forceps" method. Janky doesn't even begin to cover some of those. Really, as long as you've got it through the eye twice and at least five wraps it doesn't matter how it looks (well, sort of  ::)) because the connection will be good.

You did a nice job for maiden voyage. Practice makes perfect.  :thumbsup: :clap:
thank you esox xtm for the tool to do it with.im amazed at how thin 7 strand is and its quite smaller diameter than the mono i use so it should be pretty stealthy.so it can wrap around the tipups spool without turning into a coily spring too?

Offline ActiveTrapChecker

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #43 on: Feb 11, 2019, 02:04 PM »
Another little trick is for trimming the tag end - bend it back and forth until it breaks.  It will break right at the twist and not leave a sharp end to poke your finger.  I use single strand, though.  I don't know if it will work with multi strand.

Not sure if it's good or bad, but i cover the tag end after i snip it with beads

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #44 on: Feb 11, 2019, 02:43 PM »
One more question..lol before i just fish these on my tipups.can i put a splitshot on the wire?they are pretty long to put it on the tipup main line.i always put one about 12 away from the minnow so it goes down easily.

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #45 on: Feb 11, 2019, 03:31 PM »
Yep on the shot. I often do.
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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #46 on: Feb 11, 2019, 04:29 PM »
Yep on the shot. I often do.
nice thanks again.i may never use heavy mono again on my tipups.i did get a couple pokes from the treble hook points fumbling with my fingers/hands shaking due to severe arthritis.my shaking helps with the unintentional jigging motion for bluegills sometimes.. not so good tying anything on to line or wire.hahaha

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #47 on: Feb 11, 2019, 05:54 PM »
nice thanks again.i may never use heavy mono again on my tipups.i did get a couple pokes from the treble hook points fumbling with my fingers/hands shaking due to severe arthritis.my shaking helps with the unintentional jigging motion for bluegills sometimes.. not so good tying anything on to line or wire.hahaha

Hmmm. Stuff I do without thinking anymore. I always twist the swivel first. Can't say how many times I did the hook first only to get it snagged in something when I got to twisting the swivel. You've got a good start Doc  :clap: :thumbsup:
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Offline Coachkwj

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #48 on: Feb 11, 2019, 09:54 PM »
So heres my first twist.its kind of janky at the hook eye.its hard to hold it all together while twisting.esox xtm is this strong enough to try?or am I wasting wire.lol.i  will get it down.maybe not this year.



Looks good. Better than the first couple I made. Hopefully with my twiddle stick I'll get them even better. I like the bronze short shank hooks also vs nickel.
It is inevitable you will get one that swallows the hook. Cut the leader as close to the hook as possible and fish should be fine. Bare bronze hooks will rust or dissolve alot faster than nickel hooks. I did a test a couple years back with both kinds of hooks in a small filled tub. In 2 days the bare hook showed signs of rust. Took more than a week for the nickel hook. I don't have a problem sharpening the bronze hooks as they are not as sharp out of the box as higher end nickel hooks which I use exclusively for bass and like lures in open water.
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Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #49 on: Feb 12, 2019, 06:19 AM »
Looks good. Better than the first couple I made. Hopefully with my twiddle stick I'll get them even better. I like the bronze short shank hooks also vs nickel.
It is inevitable you will get one that swallows the hook. Cut the leader as close to the hook as possible and fish should be fine. Bare bronze hooks will rust or dissolve alot faster than nickel hooks. I did a test a couple years back with both kinds of hooks in a small filled tub. In 2 days the bare hook showed signs of rust. Took more than a week for the nickel hook. I don't have a problem sharpening the bronze hooks as they are not as sharp out of the box as higher end nickel hooks which I use exclusively for bass and like lures in open water.

I also prefer bronze or black hooks but for different reasons.

As far as gullet hooked fish I'm not convinced that any hook rusts quickly enough save the fish. Old timers used to say, "Ahhh! They rust out in a few days."

Water, on it's own, can create surface rust fairly quickly especially if there is a good supply of oxygen. For the deep, consuming rust that it would take for a hook to "dissolve" it would take much longer. Even the addition of a corrosive element to speed the process such as a stomach acid or salt would still not likely consume the hook as quickly as we might like to believe.

Check out this article that offers a study conducted by the Maryland DNR on deeply hooked fish: http://www.nesportsman.com/articles/article11.shtml. In the first test on stripers in the Chesapeake Bay, 70% of bronzed hooks remained after 120 days in brackish water (salt/fresh mix). In the second test which ran for 60 days 81% of the hooks remained. Not a great case for leader clipping. That and the fact that a fish cannot feed with it's gullet or mouth (seen this a coupla times) pinned shut.

So, what's a guy to do? If you go in through the gills carefully it is possible to grab the hook shank from the side, invert the hook and pop it right out. It sounds crazy but it has worked for me many times. Here's a look at how it goes:

.

Certainly barbless hooks would be an additional help. I've popped trebles out fairly easily, only pulling enough of the gullet out to grab the hook shank. In every case I've seen, once the hook is out, the gullet goes right back where it belongs. If the hook is not even visible gently pulling on the line can expose just enough of the shank to work with. A forceps is a much better tool than a pliers and a curved tip, slightly better than straight.

Once you try this you will be amazed at how quick and effective it is. You'll never clip a leader again.

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Offline Coachkwj

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #50 on: Feb 12, 2019, 03:47 PM »
Can't tell you how many times I've done that on gut hooked bass, mostly with senkos as they eat them things. Single hook too. Tried it on a Pike with a treble and results were not so good. I actually caught a bass that was crapping out a hook, again a single. Doesn't happen often but next time I will give it a shot with the treble. Worst case I've got a couple dinners.
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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #51 on: Feb 12, 2019, 03:57 PM »
ive been using circle hooks on my tipups for years but those need to be snelled on so twisted wire wont work with them .that helps but pike swallow them sometimes too.i don't keep  pike over 32"so I hope the big ones don't swallow the hook but the thru the gill plate method does work.pike that swallow the hook under 32" are going home with me and getting fried or pickled anyways.i don't get many that swallow the hook tho,as  soon as my flag goes up I immediately go get it and set the hook.i don't wait for a run or 2nd run.if I miss it so be it.im a treasure hunter and love scrounging around on the river pulling lures out of snags.all of the lures new and old have no hooks on them from rusting out.the fishing line tangled all over is what hold them in the snags.i think environment,and different elements in the water on some lakes and rivers rust hooks faster than others.imo

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #52 on: Feb 12, 2019, 04:28 PM »
More and more with the small trebles I fish I am more likely to be quick on the trigger. Most are hooked neatly near the front or right in the corner. If it takes me a bit to get there or they're really on the feed they can slurp a shiner or sucker faster than you can blink. I figure if I get 'em, I get 'em and they're an easy release/unhook or I don't. No harm, no foul.
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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #53 on: Mar 06, 2019, 09:48 AM »
sooo..im in a pike fishing slump.i have not caught a pike since I switched to wire...but no one else has had many flags either.ive only landed 2 northerns this whole season.normally 10 to 20 landed by now. pike season closes on the 15th in michigan.

Offline musky-man

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #54 on: Mar 08, 2019, 03:04 PM »
I'm a big fan of steel. The other day I was getting a good amount of flags on a flouro set up, ran out of bait so moved a tip up with steel in that hole. Not a flag for the rest of the day. Put the gopro down to see what's up and this is what I got. Obviously they didnt like something. I think I had to much on the leader close to the shiner or that if I had the shiner a little higher keeping the leader above the pike it might have been different. What do you guys think? I really wanna keep my faith in steel lol
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Offline HWeber

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #55 on: Mar 08, 2019, 04:03 PM »
I'm a big fan of steel. The other day I was getting a good amount of flags on a flouro set up, ran out of bait so moved a tip up with steel in that hole. Not a flag for the rest of the day. Put the gopro down to see what's up and this is what I got. Obviously they didnt like something. I think I had to much on the leader close to the shiner or that if I had the shiner a little higher keeping the leader above the pike it might have been different. What do you guys think? I really wanna keep my faith in steel lol

Oversized hooks and what looks to be thick coated wire doesn't help.  20lb uncoated wire and some size 8 trebles would make a difference imo. Another thing to consider is depending on how heavy fluorocarbon you use your minnows may be more or less active compared to the steel leader

Offline musky-man

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #56 on: Mar 08, 2019, 04:08 PM »
Thanx for the input. Totally agree on the hook size, spent the day switching out to smaller ones. The leader is just a single strand doubled up and twisted.
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Offline HWeber

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #57 on: Mar 08, 2019, 04:16 PM »
Gotcha. If you haven't checked out 49 strand wire its worth looking at.  Nearly as limp as braid

Offline esox_xtm

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #58 on: Mar 08, 2019, 05:39 PM »
There's applications for single strand wire but dangling live bait is not one of them. I use plenty of uncoated 20# stranded wire with good results. Smaller hooks, and unless you're on 20# fish consistently a good #10/3x strong is plenty of hook.
 
x2 on the 49 strand product. I've been playing with some this year in 20# along with the 19 strand in 17#, both lightly coated products. They allow you to tie pretty much any knot and are much more flexible than the 7 strand stuff. 20# Surflon is awesome!

What is the orange (bead?) above your shot? If I were to add color, and I often do, I add it near the bait either at the hook or on the tail.

I'm kind of a renegade and get bullied into fishing walleyes in pike water. I hate swapping my wire for plastic when I know I'll be "at risk" so I let it ride. Twice this year I fished right with the fluoro guys on 'eyes and even outfished ''em once by ADDING a colored jig to the business end of the rig. Fluoro is NOT invisible and location trumps presentation every time. Just sayin'...

Either go with the Surflon stuff or make a crimp free connection with uncoated seven strand using this: https://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=243422.msg2468614#msg2468614
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Offline musky-man

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Re: Flourocarbon, Mono or Wire Leaders?
« Reply #59 on: Mar 09, 2019, 04:12 AM »
I was waiting for you to chime in esox ;D. I'll admit I dont kno what specific kind of wire I'm using, bought a big spool of it a few years ago but after looking at pics of the stuff your recommending I recognized the marlin on packaging. I tied up some new leaders yesterday with smaller hooks and just one peice of straight wire instead of 1 peice doubled and twisted.the rest of the set up in the video is 20lb flouro connected to steel via spro barrel swivel so the steel doesn't dig into flouro at connection. I run 2 beads above shot on all my set ups as an attraction. I try to keep it higher up on the leader so fish can see it from further away. Also with a live shiner the beads slide together and click against the split shot giving off a little noise.  I'll try one bead and see if theres a difference.  Def agree that location trumps presentation,  I caught one small pike after the camera died that day on the leader you see in the video right before dark. The o/g set up works but i clearly could have caught a few more. Thanks for the advice!

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