What,s everyones oppion on the live bait issues

[JJ]

The scientific data does not support that claim. Discoveries like that are what scientists live for, that isn't something they would hide. For what reason?
The date VHS was discovered is irrelevant at this point, we need to prevent its further spread.

[Erock187us]

The Hudson River (at Least down here in Greene County) is clear of Vhs, So we should have no problem with herring around here come spring. Good Luck to All and Happy Drilling.

                                                                Erock187us

[hunters08]

I just didn't like the idea of people believing that VHS is already "everywhere", when there is no evidence to support that claim. Such inferences can lead to people choosing not to follow the new regulations.
You need to check your facts on the discovery of this new strain of VHS. It was not detected until 2005 anywhere, and it was not detected in NY until May 2006. VHS was confirmed in June 2006, and new regulations were enacted in Nov 2006. Yet you claim DEC dragged their feet, and waited too long before they did anything? New York has gone further than anyone to so the spread of VHS, yet people still criticize, when they should be commended.
The fact of the matter is that DEC came up with an effective plan to try to prevent the spread of a potentially devastating disease(to fish), which still allows fisherman to use live bait.  Believe me when I tell you, there is a real possibility that all baitfish use will be outlawed. We sportsman have been given our chance, we all need to follow through and obey the new regs, whether we like them or not.  Either that or get used to artificials, this is no joke, and neither is VHS.

I have gotten all my facts from you and crayfish so you better go back and check your posts again! you stated "vhs was found in 2003 in st.clair" NEW YORK DEC should have then put up emergency regs not now!!!!! from your posts changing here and there ("discovery dates are irrelavant now")i can tell you have no clue on VHS like most of us,you just want everyone to follow the rules!!! If there is regs everyone here will follow the rules, BUT Like doctari said the horse has left the building!!!

[crayfishbob]

Wholly twistorama !  First of all, Lake St.clair is not even in New York. How would NY start a regulation  about something newly discovered in another state and I'm positive it took awhile to even figure it out.

So what you are saying its too late for all the watersheds in the state ?

We should'nt follow the rules ?

I'm asking, because I kinda read it that way.

Nobody has all the answers, and the DEC made some good decisions, some bad decisions. Either way , I think we should follow the rules.

No clue ?  when's the last time you e-mailed the state's patholigest, or talked to your region's head fishery guy on the phone, or his superiors ? Did you go to the DEC meetings ? Or even took the time to google VHS ? Who is APHIS ?

I would have never thought sardines would even have anything to do with it, but it does. Just google :
sardines vhs

Its the attitude of one or two fishermen that think its too late that will lead to the end of using baifish in New York.

How's this scene grab ya ? -- Hypothetically, of course-- The DEC checks a bucket of minnows on a isolated lake. The guys have way too many. The minnows then are confiscated, then tested not only for VHS, but genetic make up. They turn out to be infected and from the niagra river.

What would you expect the DEC to do at that time ?

[Bear_Lake_Bob]

Yep, or it could have come in through DEC fisheries activities, electroshock surveys, whatever.  That is another scary part about this conundrum, WE DON'T KNOW CHIT!

What we do know is that this pathogen, along with a laundry list of others, is not native to US waters.  We know VHS was first noticed on our coasts in the late 1990's.  We do know that it was present in this current strain in 2003 in Lake St Clair, we do know that in 2005 Lake Ontario showed positive presence as well.  We do know, like along with Koi Herpes Virus, Whirling Disease and many others, NOTHING WAS DONE, primarily due to no public health threat, and a severe shortage of resources at the DEC (one pathologist!!!! start there).

Doctari:

I mentioned before how necessary the creation of a reference pannel of  frozen Great Lakes Fishes is  an immediate need , and can now more so be established as an emergency necessity to avoid confusion amongst the ranks  of those paid thinkers in the DEC and other states conservation departments. Yearly samples  of all Great Lakes Aqua life forms, as well as all the Great Lakes fishes have to be collected from various area of the Great Lakes, and set aside, frozen forever so that they can be studied to determine what date in time any given condition starts to show up. Wouldn't such a pannel if available now, perhaps for the last 10 years of review, more closely pin down the start of this VHS event. Don't have the money, well get it, and get it quickly

I am not a fisheries expert, and will never profess to be so, however this is such a no brainer that it is scary, and makes me feel uncomfortable with the fisheries departments as a whole. Wasn't long ago a multi Great Lakes basin search was undertaken, a lot of noise made about the Blue Pike, as not one regulatory agency had any frozen samples of this species, nor less any DNA material from one. The fisheries of the Great Lakes, the quality of the drinking water are paramount issues, and every step should be taken to monitor them.What really scares me is the fact that Federal money is available to the states right now to hire the necessary people to study, monitor, and take action on this issue. The same old, same old, WE DON'T HAVE ANY FUNDING will no longer be accepted, and we should not buy into this, because the states have taken the time to make this a " FEDERAL CASE" and with it from past history comes the free flow of  of Federal money!This reference pannel is what the County Federation Of Sportsmens Clubs and what not ,should be promoting, because it is legitimate, long term, and necessay as evidenced by the facts today!

Bear_Lake_Bob

[KingFisher1]

Why don't they eliminate the new regulations on the lakes where VHS has already been found? It makes no sense to limit the use of bait on a lake where the virus is already present. I don't see how using Lake Erie minnows on Conesus could hurt, since both lakes are already infected. They should concentrate on the lakes that do not have the virus. They could post a list of infected lakes and exclude them from the new regs.

[shawner]

     Sorry if I didn't write clearly, I know that they've known about VHS since the 90's, but Huron has just been confirmed. I don't think they were trying to hide it, they just didn't have a sample of this VHS strain in 2003 when they collected fish from a die off (meaning the DNR) they had in Huron. Now that they had a good example of this strain we are discussing, they could confirm its presence in Huron as far back as 2003. Good, I say, at a boy. They needed to do that and continue to confirm or deny the presence of this strain in the Great lakes waters and in the NE in general to contain the spread. Yes that is only a part of what needs to be done by government agencies, we as sportsmen have a part also like Crayfish and the Capt. have stated. There are probably not as many conspiracies going on as people think. With limited funds and resources(because of politicians and bureaucracy) its no wonder that it takes time on making the right decisions on how to manage the virus, the fish, the bodies of water affected, the baitfish and the sportsmen who this ultimately impacts along with the aquaculture and baitdealers industry who are trying to do the right thing and remain in business. A lot to organize, manage and make the right decision on here. I don't envy the NYSDEC and their situation on this. They do not, however, I believe ever want to take the privilege of fishing in NY away from the residents. They have a responsibility to contain VHS, not to create a new political and social debate on meathods or restrictions or funding.

[JJ]

Nice post Shawner, you are getting the point. At this point sportsmen should be focusing on preventing the further spread of VHS

Crayfishbob, There seems to be lots of "twistoramas" out there by people trying to prove their own points, nice rebuttal, keep on educating the masses.

[crayfishbob]

On the contrair. What I have in holdings right now are in the process of being tested, and I hope I can pay for all my expences. I have $1500 into them right now. I only hope to sell enough to break even.  Its a short season and I'm due for another finiancial ass wumping !


I'm NOT a wholesale dealer. I own a baitshop. I get my own bait. With all that has transpired, and the opportunitys presented before me, I took a huge risk moving ahead with this. I would be willing to bet that i'm one of two that actually did the testing in this state and took the same risk. In the past, I have sold a few to other shops, but for convienance reasons only, at a small price.

I am actually being forced into the wholesale bait business in order to survive. Its the only logical means of surviving the bait business. Just last week, I proposed a program where I can provide bait to the big guys in the business AT COST as to relieve them of their burdons. Anyone here can call Bill's big catch in buffalo to confirm. Greedy I am not. I've been on the web way too long and if you knew anything about me, my crayfish, my websites , you will see me in a different light.

www.bluecrayfish.com

www.oneidalake.us

[marcus]

The local baitshops have certified bait and even my poor a$$ can afford it I do know people with Erie emeralds but i chose to pay 1.50 a dozen for some from wisconsin to help at least slow the spread the best I as one fisherman can do. I suppose this hurts bait dealers but not us fisherman   or at least around here . My opinion is if the DEC law says we have to use certified bait I will... 
I am not a bait dealer I did sometimes gather my own come springtime but if that is not allowed and could possibly harm the fisheries around here I will just pay the few extra bucks and throw the seine net away...I am not well educated on this matter it just does not seem to be that big of a deal for us fishermen I do however see where this would hurt the bait guys which sucks but it is what it is.

[Irrgang131]

Just quit complaining about it and followq the rules all the bait you buy at the shops is good and there is nothing to worry about.  Prices havent even gone up that much, plus the guy selling the bait has to make money to.  I dont think that selling minnow is that lucrative of a business anyhow so as long as the people at the shop are friendly and treat ya good who cares if the raise there price a little. 

[GAMBELL]

I think bait farms and distributers should have to get the certification not the bait shops.  How will the bait get VHS in a truck coming from the certified bait ponds to the bait shops.  It's not like they are going to stop and let them take a swim in Lake Ontario or Conesus. 

[marcus]

i think that is part of the reason for the bait increases the farms and distributers have to raise the prices due to the expensive testing i believe crayfishbob catches his own therefore he has to get them certified himself

[GAMBELL]

The only problem with getting your own bait from some lakes (and having it certified)is it WILL have VHS soon.  I hope these indiviuals are ready to get your bait from somewhere else.  Some of the Fingerlakes and Oneida will have VHS soon (just like zebra muscles and spine flea).  I say this because they are connected to Lake Ontario via the Erie Canal and other canals and waterways.  Over time, it will make it's way there.  I hope it does not but I think it will. 

[stickyfingerdpuppeter]

OkAY CRAY FISH SO YOUR GOING TO BECOME A DISTRIBUTOR.???AND YOUR PUSHING THIS WHY?OH I QUESS YOU JUST TOLD US WHY .SO WHY NOTHING ON KINGFISHERS IDEA TO STOP THE USE OF BAIT IN THE LAKES NOT INFECTED YET.?? ?TO STOP ALLOWING BAIT USE IN YOUR LAKE ALONG WITH THE OTHERS THAT ARNT INFECTED.MAN THAT ONE MAKES NO SENSE???JUST LIKE YOU TRYING TO CONVINCE USE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN.IF YOU WERNT IN THE BAIT BUESS.YOU WOULD BE MORE CONVINCING.

[willbilly]

You are making way more sense now that you have your CAPS LOCK on!!!

[sticknmove]

I think we have to adapt to changes in fishing regulations, they may be an inconvenience but I want my children to have a place to fish in the future.

[GAMBELL]

Stopping the use of live bait on some lakes would not be the answer.  Most baits do not come from lakes around here.  i.e. fatheads and shiners.  A lot of these baits come from farm ponds.  How would VHS get into these ponds?   

[JJ]

Gambell,
FYI, Bait shops are not the ones resposible for testing bait, unless they collect their own. Distrubutors can only sell certified bait to the shops. I think farmed bait only may become the way of the future.

Sticky, it was much earlier in my life that I learned that you can not reason with the unreasonable.

[doctariAFC]

     I thought I read in the report about the lake Huron sample that it was from specimens taken in 2003 from a die off and because they were so decomposed and a good example of VHS wasn't available that it was also thought that another disease may be at fault, botulism I believe. After the recent finding they went back to the frozen 2003 sample and confirmed its presence,that's the way I believe it went. DEC surveys and electro shocking do not contribute in any way to the spreading of any of the known viruses infact just the opposite. They are the tools used to take the samples and info needed to detect any problems, health and presence of species. All the vessels used are contaminant free, they do not transport bilge or livewell water from body to body. I have been involved in these activities and precautions are always part of any survey I was a part of especially using an electro-shocker.

That contradicts what Paul McKeown, Region 9 Fisheries Manager stated in the VHS meeting of Jan 8 2007 at Woodlawn Beach State Park.

According to McKeown, the top known pathway to infection spread (beyond natural fish movements) is normal fisheries management activities, including survey and stocking.  In response to this one, the DEC adopted new SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) to inform their field personnel about potential risk of spreading VHS, and have implemented new "disinfecting" procedures for all their gear upon leaving one body of water, before use in the next one.

VHS was discovered in our coastal waters of Pacific and Atlantic in the late 1990's, hitting primarily salmon.  One of the statements made by the DEC during the meeting was that the rules requiring ballast exchange  on vessels before entering the SLS, could have been the way the pathogen was picked up.  Although I have a hard time buying that one, it is remotely possible that Atlantic VHS was picked up, and then dumped into SLS, and mutated.  A little far-fetched, I know, but it underscores the fact we do not know much at all.

[hunters08]

Wholly ?
twistorama !  First of all, Lake St.clair is not even in New York.

Exactly!!! They just waited untill it got to new york before doing something about it!!!
  Gambell is right eventually its going to be in your lake no matter what.
  King fisher has the most logical answer stop the bait fish use altogether in lakes that are not infected!!!
 

[BuckShotJon]

Don't care to get into the debate but this is what I found this weekend.

$2.00 more per dozen for pike minnows.
.25 more per dozen for fathead minnows.


Bait shop owner said it was in direct relation to this rule. He had the DEC printout laying right there as well.


Jon

[IceReaver]

To all the doubters/rule-breakers/complainers...

If you want a more enforceable law in place, lobby for "no live bait" or even better "NO FISHING" in the entire state of NY!!  Why stop there...how about the entire United States!! 

Wake up people...it's not about placing blame...we're all good at that...it's about preventing the spread of a potentially destructive disease.  Do you want to be part of the problem, or the solution!!

Kudos to Crayfishbob & Capt JJ...they are trying to educate, get the word out, and stop the spread of VHS.  You better believe I tell everyone that I know and meet...and to those of you who think it's stupid and aren't going to follow the rules...come fish near me.  I'll meander over...talk to you real nice...survey your set-up...and call the DEC to report you!!

[doctariAFC]

Gambell,
FYI, Bait shops are not the ones resposible for testing bait, unless they collect their own. Distrubutors can only sell certified bait to the shops. I think farmed bait only may become the way of the future.

Sticky, it was much earlier in my life that I learned that you can not reason with the unreasonable.

100% correct.  This is handled through the transport of live fish rule.  ALl live fish on the list of species prohibited by the APHIS order must be tested and certified, either from a VHS Free source, such as a contained private fish farm, or the lot is VHS-, if collected from a VHS- body of water.  Commercial collection of bait is currently probitied from any waters that have tested VHS+. 

Well stated CaptJJ

[hunters08]

To all the doubters/rule-breakers/complainers...

If you want a more enforceable law in place, lobby for "no live bait" or even better "NO FISHING" in the entire state of NY!!  Why stop there...how about the entire United States!! 

Wake up people...it's not about placing blame...we're all good at that...it's about preventing the spread of a potentially destructive disease.  Do you want to be part of the problem, or the solution!!

Kudos to Crayfishbob & Capt JJ...they are trying to educate, get the word out, and stop the spread of VHS.  You better believe I tell everyone that I know and meet...and to those of you who think it's stupid and aren't going to follow the rules...come fish near me.  I'll meander over...talk to you real nice...survey your set-up...and call the DEC to report you!!

I would have to say that this was probably the best and well thought out post on the entire subject.

[shawner]

     I appreciate the info doctari, can't say about region 9, I live and did all of my sampling and electro-shocking in region 8 with FLCC and a few times with DEC and USFW personnel. The last time for me was 2004, and it does make sense that they have adapted some new meathods and safety precautions. However, we always cleaned our equipment before we used it again and dumped any live well or bilge water at each particular location(electro-shocker). The streams and small bodies sampling used different equipment. The staff at FLCC has a lot of responsibility to the students and associates like the DEC, to take the precautions while teaching their courses. I can't say they were perfect everytime over the years, but while I was present, the precautions used at the time, were taken. Again, I appreciate your info and all of the reasonable input from everyone. Its impossible at this point to get everyone to agree and we have to listen to a little high towting(myself included), but this venue offers a great opportunity to discuss, get past and move towards agreeing on the best thing for everyone to realize that this issue isn't going away easily and we as sportsman have a responsibility in this matter. We should do the right thing and not the easiest. The choices are clear to me, do the right thing and we may contain it and minimize the effect overall, continue to do what you do the way you want to and risk spreading the disease(maybe to your  currently clean lake), or do nothing and maybe it is a lot of hype or it will just go away. I, like a lot of others, came from an upbringing that created a sportsman, that lead me to be a conservationist so I will try to be part of the solution. That takes educating yourself, thank you doctari, crayfish  Capt.and everyone else. Which we are doing in part here, myself included!

[crayfishbob]

Don't care to get into the debate but this is what I found this weekend.

$2.00 more per dozen for pike minnows.
.25 more per dozen for fathead minnows.


Bait shop owner said it was in direct relation to this rule. He had the DEC printout laying right there as well.


Jon

I don't understand why anyone would incerease bait prices over this. The shiners and fat heads that are in the shops right now are from minnow farms from the south. It has been a requirement by them to have thier farms tested for years. When this came along in new york, it was a matter of providing paperwork to the bait dealers, nothing more.


Now for the future :

Stopping the use of live bait on some lakes would not be the answer.  Most baits do not come from lakes around here.  i.e. fatheads and shiners.  A lot of these baits come from farm ponds.  How would VHS get into these ponds?   

Yes, the bait farms in new york are in peril. The two that I deal with are stopping selling minnows. One of wich is hanging it up. The state explained to me at the meeting that a bird like a seagull  could bring a infected fish in. If that's true, then we are truly beating our heads against the wall here.

All the farm raised legal bait you buy now ( TODAY, NOT YESTERDAY) is from arkansas or minnesota. I went and called the largest producer of bait in arkansas.
The information he gave me has yet to be convayed here yet, I believe. Now that { most of us} are thinking in logical and decent nature, I can pass on more intelligent information.

Ok- They ( the bait farms of the south and midwest ) have been testing for  viruses for years. Way back in 2001, when VHS hit washington state, This particullar bait farm started testing for vhs too, wich really is the same test procedure.
What they do is farm wide testing. Some of these ponds are bigger than a football stadium and the whole farn encompasses 1 sq mile, ( 640 acres) and is devided up by roads. There is uncountable minnows there, in the billions.

What they do is take a few out of each pond and send them off to the lab. The testing is done at pine bluffs, ark. wich is similar to cornell university here in NY. This is done twice a year .

So part of my request to NY state in response to the emergency laws was to recognise the small time bait farms in NY. The way they have it, and I asked at the meeting, the minnows have to be all harvested, brought to one single pond while being tested. ( this was a sum of a long conversation).
I want to see farm wide testing just like they do in the south, and the state provide funding to do so. I also want to see programs encouraging new bait farms, because the simple fact that bait farms are a controllable environment, unlike lakes.Bait farms are the future of bait. The bait farms in NY are in big trouble. This is why I founded the New York State baitfish Association. It is going to take years of hard work, but i'll get there.

So yes, the bait prices will go up for some when the bait farmers here in NY has to get thier bait tested, but that yet is to happen because of the time frames involved.

 

[doctariAFC]

New article on VHS is now published on http://www.weloveoutdoors.com

Gives plenty of insight into the conundrum we are facing.

Couple this with Grannis coming in as new Commissioner, and the game becomes dicier.

[JJ]

The Conservation Fund is short $7 million as of January 1st, extra funds are not available for any new testing programs. With our new governor and his appointment of Grannis, the future is uncertain; you can bet they will make up the shortage by cutting some programs important to sportsmen.
Also, I just got off the phone with a DEC Region 5 biologist, don't be surprised to see further restictions on bait use, especially in the Adirondack Park.

[doctariAFC]

The Conservation Fund is short $7 million as of January 1st, extra funds are not available for any new testing programs. With our new governor and his appointment of Grannis, the future is uncertain; you can bet they will make up the shortage by cutting some programs important to sportsmen.
Also, I just got off the phone with a DEC Region 5 biologist, don't be surprised to see further restictions on bait use, especially in the Adirondack Park.

I just keeps getting better and better.  FUBAR.  I miss Pataki already.  The funds should be restored to the CF through emergency legislation taken from the General Fund, like was done during CWD.  This goes to the entire State, but, you are 100% correct.  You ain't gonna see it.

Conundrum, indeed.