What,s everyones oppion on the live bait issues

[JJ]

sometime i think it's just away to put the small bait shops out of bussince.and make if hard to get bait. to rise the prices 

Another useless comment. Why would DEC want to put small bait shops out of business?  Also bait prices have not gone up.

[stickyfingerdpuppeter]

Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch  want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say  aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish?

[RLWagner]

Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch  want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say  aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish?

Makes a lotta sense if you want guys to stop catching Perch! Sounds like a conspiracy?

[doctariAFC]

Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch  want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say  aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish?

Out of towners cannot scoop up bait and bring it back home to sell.  The Federal Order issued 10/24/06 by the USDA-APHIS division prohibits live fish transport throughout the Great Lakes states and coming in from Ontario.  Got nothing to do with NYS.  This one is a Federal order.

[Bear_Lake_Bob]

 

Too many people are missing the real point here on this VHS subject. The real onus should fall on to the shoulders of the state DEC, to finally pay for its share of these senseless regulations, enforcement, and especially testing.

For whenever in human history along the Great Lakes, inland Lakes, Ponds, Bays, Rivers and streams, man has been innoculating these fishable waters with minnows of every size, species and numbers in many ways, either by loss during fishing, minnows accidently spilled overboard or thru an ice fishing hole, and by an even more direct method, direct placement into the water after a day of fishing.


Not mentioned as well is the more natural effect of the transport of minnows by migratory waterfowl, seagulls, eagles and the like.

Many of us, especially from Western New York State will remember ( now give this some thought here!), the DEC prohibition of using minnows( baitfish) dead or alive, or even having such bait near these waters, even if dead/salted! This always struck me hard at the time, and it took many years to finally reason things out seeing these signs, for example at Harwood Lake along RT 98 and others.

Reasoning time is here and now, and all the knee jerk solutions will not help this matter at all!It comes down to the simple fact being that there is a  health problem with Emerald Shiners as a species, and this condition has existed  for a very long time, and nothing was ever done about it when 1st observed and studied, even though it was a well known disease of certain species of the European Community.

Any VHS relationship to the Round Gobys presence in our Great Lakes, and the Ruffe,and Zebra Mussels other European hitchhikers  has not been mentioned nor studied as far as I know! Maybe it is known by Govt " Thinkers", but won't be released for another 10 years, as this VHS issue has been.

Again, the DEC joined ranks with several other Great Lakes States, and decided to get involved, along with the Provience of Ontrario. From what I hear the USDA effort came about when "organized" commercial fish farmers heard about this and wanted to protect their interests, then got lawyers and USDA ( the farmers friend ) involved. This Fed agency has direct powers to curtail any activity with in a multi- state jurisdiction., by issue of Emergency Proclamation!

My main point being, that the state DEC has far surpassed other states,and the Provience of Ontario  in its regulatory regulations on this issue, and has proposed costly testing/ release procedures for bait fish and as usual, has passed the costs directly on the consumer and bait operator. It is time now for some positive DEC action, they have let the horse out of the barn far in advance on this issue. The DEC can save face by going the extra mile here for its sportsmen by taking an initiative to conduct surveys of all fishable waters in New York State, sample all species present and certify the status of VHS  Positive or VHS Negative; then prohibit the possession of  bait fish dead or alive on these areas that are not infected to date, posting accordingly! Then maybe discussing the use of " Certified VHS Free Minnows " on waters not yet infected.

I understand certain testing efforts are underway as we speak, NYSDEC has enough manpower to collect and labs to test. Outsourcing is available as an option. Federal funds can be obtained easily for this venture. We are blessed with stafff and students at Cornell U who specialize in these areas! Lets get going, and in the right direction.

In Western New York State we have Chautauqua Lake, it shouild be a model for all other lakes to be tested. Most all fish on the short list are present, including a vast number of Emerald Shiners; and on the same thought, how did Emerald Shiners get their start there anyways???


bear_lake Bob

[crayfishbob]

Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch  want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say  aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish?

I do not see anything wrong with using bait in the same lake it only makes sense. However its the one or two people that do what they want with them. Right now, there are people stashing minnows in ponds. Those ponds will never be good again until completly drained and sterilized.

Then theres the few who go where they want with them. It takes once and a whole lake is infected. Can anyone justify that ?  Sure he  cought some fish, but now we have another infected lake... Is it worth it ?

I'm positive that there is somewheres in the range of two dozen or less spots where emeralds can be cought easily along the niagra, lake erie and ontario, inc the st.lawarnce. ( sure there are some not so good spots) The state merely would have to pass the law so nobody can take minnows there, post signs, and that's it.

The federal government stopped the transport of live fish from the great lakes region without certs. They can just as easily stop the taking of baitfish altogether from the waters of the great lakes, i'm sure.

If theres a sign saying theres a $10,000 fine for taking baitfish posted by APHIS/USDA, then the bad guys are going to think twice. Maybe there's a way of using it in the same waters, but how can it be enforced ?

VHS is a "emerging" disease. That means its spreading.Lets do what we can to follow the rules.

I'm so glad we can openly talk about this. Thank you again, ice shanty.

[JJ]

Too many people are missing the real point here on this VHS subject. The real onus should fall on to the shoulders of the state DEC, to finally pay for its share of these senseless regulations, enforcement, and especially testing.

For whenever in human history along the Great Lakes, inland Lakes, Ponds, Bays, Rivers................ .

You are still missing the point, New York State should not and will not pay for VHS testing, period.  The funds are not there, last I knew they were looking for ways to make up for a $10 million shortage on the conservation fund. One idea they were looking into is making people display their fishing licenses(harder to fish without paying for one), among others.  Bait is a commodity, if the costs to procure bait go up, these are passed on to the consumer, welcome to the United States and our market economy.  When my car needs to be inspected each year, I pay for it, not NY State.

You believe there has been a health issue(VHS?) in emerald shiners for a long time, and nothing was done about it. The facts are:
"What is the history of VHS?
VHS was first discovered in the mid 20th Century in Europe where it was originally a significant and costly disease of cultured rainbow trout. Since its initial discovery in Europe, four strains of the VHS virus have been identified, including both freshwater and marine strains. In 1988, VHS was reported in spawning salmon in the Pacific Northwest and was determined to be a new strain of the virus (Type IV) that appears to be a North American strain. It is widespread in the Pacific herring and Pacific cod populations in the Pacific Northwest and has also been found in Atlantic herring and Greenland halibut in the Atlantic Ocean.

In 2005, a very large die-off of freshwater drum in Lake Ontario and a muskellunge kill in Lake St. Clair were linked to VHS, representing the first documentation of the disease in freshwater in the western hemisphere. A subsequent test of an archived muskellunge collected from Lake St. Clair in 2003 tested positive for the virus, indicating that the virus was present, but undetected in the Great Lakes system for at least two years. The drum and muskellunge virus isolates were determined to be different than those from infected fish from other regions and were categorized as a unique strain of the virus (Type IVb).

In 2006, additional fish kills in Lake Erie, Lake Ontario, the St. Lawrence River and Conesus Lake were linked to VHS. Species involved in fish kills linked to VHS included muskellunge, smallmouth bass, northern pike, freshwater drum, gizzard shad, yellow perch, black crappie, bluegill, rock bass, white bass, redhorse sucker, round goby, burbot and walleye. Other freshwater fish species that have tested positive for VHS are bluntnose minnows and emerald shiners." (from DEC website)

[doctariAFC]

Too many people are missing the real point here on this VHS subject. The real onus should fall on to the shoulders of the state DEC, to finally pay for its share of these senseless regulations, enforcement, and especially testing.

For whenever in human history along the Great Lakes, inland Lakes, Ponds, Bays, Rivers and streams, man has been innoculating these fishable waters with minnows of every size, species and numbers in many ways, either by loss during fishing, minnows accidently spilled overboard or thru an ice fishing hole, and by an even more direct method, direct placement into the water after a day of fishing.


Not mentioned as well is the more natural effect of the transport of minnows by migratory waterfowl, seagulls, eagles and the like.

Many of us, especially from Western New York State will remember ( now give this some thought here!), the DEC prohibition of using minnows( baitfish) dead or alive, or even having such bait near these waters, even if dead/salted! This always struck me hard at the time, and it took many years to finally reason things out seeing these signs, for example at Harwood Lake along RT 98 and others.

Reasoning time is here and now, and all the knee jerk solutions will not help this matter at all!It comes down to the simple fact being that there is a  health problem with Emerald Shiners as a species, and this condition has existed  for a very long time, and nothing was ever done about it when 1st observed and studied, even though it was a well known disease of certain species of the European Community.

Any VHS relationship to the Round Gobys presence in our Great Lakes, and the Ruffe,and Zebra Mussels other European hitchhikers  has not been mentioned nor studied as far as I know! Maybe it is known by Govt " Thinkers", but won't be released for another 10 years, as this VHS issue has been.

Again, the DEC joined ranks with several other Great Lakes States, and decided to get involved, along with the Provience of Ontrario. From what I hear the USDA effort came about when "organized" commercial fish farmers heard about this and wanted to protect their interests, then got lawyers and USDA ( the farmers friend ) involved. This Fed agency has direct powers to curtail any activity with in a multi- state jurisdiction., by issue of Emergency Proclamation!

My main point being, that the state DEC has far surpassed other states,and the Provience of Ontario  in its regulatory regulations on this issue, and has proposed costly testing/ release procedures for bait fish and as usual, has passed the costs directly on the consumer and bait operator. It is time now for some positive DEC action, they have let the horse out of the barn far in advance on this issue. The DEC can save face by going the extra mile here for its sportsmen by taking an initiative to conduct surveys of all fishable waters in New York State, sample all species present and certify the status of VHS  Positive or VHS Negative; then prohibit the possession of  bait fish dead or alive on these areas that are not infected to date, posting accordingly! Then maybe discussing the use of " Certified VHS Free Minnows " on waters not yet infected.

I understand certain testing efforts are underway as we speak, NYSDEC has enough manpower to collect and labs to test. Outsourcing is available as an option. Federal funds can be obtained easily for this venture. We are blessed with stafff and students at Cornell U who specialize in these areas! Lets get going, and in the right direction.

In Western New York State we have Chautauqua Lake, it shouild be a model for all other lakes to be tested. Most all fish on the short list are present, including a vast number of Emerald Shiners; and on the same thought, how did Emerald Shiners get their start there anyways???


bear_lake Bob

Interesting, well thought out post.

A few points to correct, however:

1 - The DEC does NOT have the resources (manpower and money) to test every fishable PUBLIC water in NYS.  I have to toss out private waters for the sake of discussion.  This is a reality.  In order to test, collection of specimens must occur, which takes time.  The tests themselves, only certified test is cell culture tests (certified by American Fisheries Society and World Org on Plant and Animal Health), which, using the standard certified methodology of testing, requires 2, 14-day incubation periods (28 day cum.) for results to be known.  Bear in mind that the DEC CANNOT certify a lake or stream, et al, VHS free based on clean test results.  The only designation they can make is "tested VHS-".  Not the same thing as VHS "Free".  In light of these physical constraints/ conditions, the DEC has prioritized their testing efforts to first focus on their brood waters for their hatcheries, as fisheries management activity has been identified as the number 1 pathway to VHS spread.

2 - NYS DEC has ONE (1) certified pathologist on staff to conduct the testing.  ONE!  They currently already have in place a contract with Cornell University, which has 4 pathologists to help in the tesing, however, Cornell will NOT certify the results - they don't want the liability and I don't blame them.  Cornell is primarily working on testing hatcheries, both DEC and private commercial fish farms.  The DEC is paying for the cost of this testing, but not paying for testing of baitfish commercially harvested from a lake, rather than raised in an aquaculture, contained environment.

3 - The contract in place with Cornell is a 1 year contract.  They will review at the end of the year contract to see if renewals are warranted.

4 - The pathway of waterfowl, seagulls, etc. is known to be a problem if the bird drops an infected fish.  Expelling their digested bowels of a bird eating an infected fish is not a concern.  The birds digestive tract kills the virus.  It is not the same condition as Whirling Disease and the tubefix worm.

5 - In terms of Chautauqua Lake, this body of water (being a brood lake) has been tested and thus far is showing VHS-.  The exception is muskellunge, as they have not yet tested musky.

For more information on this, please email me @ [email protected].  I will send onto you the Region 9 ppt presentation(in pdf format) which was presented at the Region 9 meeting on Jan 8, 2007 at Woodlawn Beach.  I also have meeting notes which are very detailed.

[doctariAFC]

Just as an FYI. 

DEC's containment plan is 3-part

1 - Change DEC field operations to minimize unintentional spread of VHS through their normal field work, like electroshock surveys, lamprey trap monitoring, etc.  New SOPs are being crafted and implemented to make certain all gear and equipment is properly cleaned and disinfected prior to use in thenext body of water

2 - DEC Hatchery Operations shall be continually monitored, as well as the wild broodstock waters.  In other words, testing and monitoring of all hatcheries, DEC and private hatcheries that supply fish to NYS DEC stocking efforts.  Waters being tested for VHS presence include:

Chautauqua, Oneida, Lake Ontario, Cayuga, Raquette Lake and Little Clear Pond

They have also suspended all fish transfers from the Salmon River Hatchery to other bodies of water/ other hatcheries, meaning all trout and salmon reared at the Salmon River Hatchery shall only released/ stocked into Lake Ontario ONLY!!!

3 - Emergency regulations, which are proposed to become permanent as is.

These address the 3 pathways representing greatest risk of spread, which are

DEC Field Work
DEC Fisheries Management Work
Individual's use of live fish (bait, private stocking, etc)

Just so everyone knows...

[wnybassman]

Let's say an angler dumps an infected bucket of minnows into a lake, a "clean" lake.  From that point in time, how long would it take for VHS to become evident in that lake, or should I say, test positve for VHS?

For me, Conesus Lake is most disturbing right now, being the only secluded lake on the list.  Makes you wonder how many others are out there, and have not tested positive, or showed signs of a problem yet.  Conesus gets a ton of traffic in and out of other lakes.

What about Cayuga?  That lake has had major fish kills the last couple years, but it does not seem to be VHS related?

[KingFisher1]

How do they know if VHS is not already present in all our lakes?

[stickyfingerdpuppeter]

King Fisher1 your right how do they know.I think testing needs to be done in all bodys of water,Throughout .I recall telling the senior aquatic biologist MR C.[retired]back in 1980s aboat fish i seen while wading and casting for bass off barcalonia[lake erie]that iv never seen before.Some years later we heard of the gobie and how it was posably gona poison fish?perch populations are higher know than ever[gobies?]dont know,but their bellies are always full.Than theres the zebra muscles and all the problems they were gona cause??? And no RL WAGNER i understand fishermen wana stop this or at least control it,and its not a conspiracy.I just dont wana see more senseless n.y state BS.If there were no law breakers, laws restricting bait collection would seem somewhat sensable.Its inevitable its gona spread laws or not.Some of Our hospitals are being threatend to be closed in N.Y.Familys who have children in N.Y that are disabled,and the parents are capable to work but chose not to, own their own homes ,drive brand new cars.Welome to the U>S>A and to new york.And now their gona test minnows????Maybe N.Y could us the empty hospitals to test minnows.   

[doctariAFC]

Let's say an angler dumps an infected bucket of minnows into a lake, a "clean" lake.  From that point in time, how long would it take for VHS to become evident in that lake, or should I say, test positve for VHS?

For me, Conesus Lake is most disturbing right now, being the only secluded lake on the list.  Makes you wonder how many others are out there, and have not tested positive, or showed signs of a problem yet.  Conesus gets a ton of traffic in and out of other lakes.

What about Cayuga?  That lake has had major fish kills the last couple years, but it does not seem to be VHS related?

Cayuga Lake, as of right now, has tested VHS-.  Doesn't mean it is free of VHS, but, considering this is a broodstock lake, it will be monitored closely.  It is not 100% certain how long the incubation period is before VHS begins showing symptoms, at least not exactly.  Generally, other strains have shown a week to 10 days of incubation, then the pathogen starts its hemorrhagic symptoms.

The trouble with Type IV B is it is a new strain, and its characteristics are different enough from the other known VHS strains that it makes it difficult to determine its viability outside the host and whether hosts which survive the pathogen's affects can continue to be carriers of the disease while not affected by it.  Methinks the latter may be true.

Several articles from Michigan state the virus is somewhat of a "weenie", in that is is easily killed and doesn't survive long outside the host.  What is actually defined as "long" was unknown.  A few days, a week, a few minutes, hours?  We just do not know.

[doctariAFC]

How do they know if VHS is not already present in all our lakes?

They don't.  That's the biggest point of contention, and the primary reason the Erie County Federation is formally opposed to the VHS draft proposal regs.  We are looking at these actions as akin to closing the barn door after the horses have left.

[crayfishbob]

What part of the regs do you oppose ?, and I would rather think in terms of the future than what transpired already. Its the protection of waters not infected or not known to be infected  that efforts should be drawn to.

 I still say the single biggest mistake that dec made is the allowance of taking of infected baifish by the general public. This opens up the doorway to the uncontrollable spread of this virus. Even if its temporary for a couple of years, then at least there's a better understanding of what's really going on.

It's take time and understanding what's really happening. Sacrifices made now can only make things better in the future.

[doctariAFC]

What part of the regs do you oppose ?, and I would rather think in terms of the future than what transpired already. Its the protection of waters not infected or not known to be infected  that efforts should be drawn to.

 I still say the single biggest mistake that dec made is the allowance of taking of infected baifish by the general public. This opens up the doorway to the uncontrollable spread of this virus. Even if its temporary for a couple of years, then at least there's a better understanding of what's really going on.

It's take time and understanding what's really happening. Sacrifices made now can only make things better in the future.

But there's the entire conundrum.  We don't know whether bait is infected or not.  Testing of waters only identifies whether the virus is showing up, not whether it is present in the lake.  Not every fish will get ill or infected.  Those that do either die or survive and could become potential carriers.  The biggest problem is that it was present and known about in Lake Ontario since 2005, and tested as present in Lake Erie and the Upper Niagara River in August 2006, yet bait was still collected and used up until November 21, 2006.  This is definitely a case of the closing the barn door after the horse left the barn.

And let's also realize that these minnows, which could have been infected and used in many, many waters in NYS, also get shipped to other states, too, and through inaction, probably due to lack of urgency because of no public health threat, we have what we have now.

Further, despite all the laws we can pass to now react post-script, if you will, NONE of these regulations apply to the Native Americans.  In other words, no restrictions apply to the Senecas, and considering one of their reservations is located in Irving, right on Lake Erie and Cattaraugus Creek, a giant hole remains, and this hole cannot be closed.  So, in response, anglers get to bear the brunt, while doing nothing to address the cause of infiltration, the ballast from foreign freighters entering the Great Lakes Chain through the SLS.  Does it make sense in that light?

[doctariAFC]

And if that wasn't bad enough.....  It gets worse.  Spitzer announced his monination today for the new DEC commissioner, as follows:

  GOVERNOR ELIOT SPITZER AND LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR DAVID PATERSON ANNOUNCE
                         ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS

Governor Eliot Spitzer and Lieutenant Governor David Paterson today
announced nominations for two key senior administration positions.

Alexander B. "Pete" Grannis is being nominated to serve as Commissioner of
the Department of Environmental Conservation. Mr. Grannis was first elected
to the Assembly in 1974 and represents the Upper East Side of Manhattan and
Roosevelt Island. He currently serves as legislator, serving as Chair of the
Assembly Insurance Committee and as a member of the Assembly Ways and Means
Committee.

Mr. Grannis has championed environmental issues throughout his tenure in the
legislature. He was a leader in fighting for the passage of SEQRA, the
original bottle bill, and the clean-up and revitalization of the state's
brownfields. Mr. Grannis has also played a key role in the enactment of a
wide range of environmental legislation, including measures related to acid
rain, clean air and water, fluorocarbons and recycling. He chaired the
Assembly's first Subcommittee on Toxic Wastes, sponsored legislation
ensuring a worker's right to know about hazardous materials in the work
place and has worked to regulate the transport, storage and disposal of
toxic wastes. Mr. Grannis authored the state's rapid transit noise code and
has been at the forefront of the fight to have the MTA convert its polluting
diesel bus fleet to clean fuels.

 A nationally recognized leader in the fight to curb the health hazards
posed by smoking, Mr. Grannis authored New York's 1989 Clean Indoor Air Act
(CIAA) and amendments adopted in 2003 to protect all working men and women
from deadly secondhand smoke. His legislative efforts to curb smoking,
including the historic CIAA and the Adolescent Tobacco Use Prevention Act
have received global recongnition. Mr. Grannis*s work has been hailed by
numerous public health organizations including the American Cancer Society
and the New York State Association of County Health Officials.

Mr. Grannis is a three-time winner of the Legislator of the Year award from
the Environmental Planning Lobby and was accorded similar honors by the
Audubon Society, the Environmental Action Coalition and Environmental
Advocates. He also received the American Society for the Prevention of
Cruelty to Animals Public Service Award in recognition of his efforts in
promoting the humane treatment of animals.

Mr. Grannis lives with his family in New York City. He is a graduate of
Rutgers University and the University of Virginia Law School. Prior to
entering the Assembly, Mr. Grannis practiced law in New York City and served
as Compliance Counsel for the New York State Department of Environmental
Conservation.

Judith Enck will be appointed as Deputy Secretary for the Environment.  For
the past eight years, Ms. Enck has served as a policy advisor to Attorney
General Eliot Spitzer.  Prior to joining the Attorney General*s office, she
was a Senior Environmental Associate with the New York Public Interest
Research Group (NYPIRG).  She has also served as the Executive Director of
the Environmental Advocates of New York, a non-profit government watchdog
organization dedicated to enforcing laws that protect natural resources and
safeguards public health.  Ms. Enck received her B.A. from the College of
St. Rose.



Remember what I said about the politics of this VHS containment plan, and the push in, what I consider, HASTE?

Read the above and weep.

[doctariAFC]

National News now folks...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246980,00.html

looks like VHS has been confirmed now to be present in Lake Huron!

[hunters08]

I agree the horse has left the building and your going to find it everywhere its to late,people have been using these minnows everywhere for years.

[MikeVT]

Hopefully it won't end in a ban on using live baitfish.  Some states already prohibit any live baitfish, I hope New York is not next in line.

[JJ]

I agree the horse has left the building and your going to find it everywhere its to late,people have been using these minnows everywhere for years.

Your pessimism on this matter is quite interesting, I'm glad everyone doesn't share your views. That type of attitude will only help to spread VHS further.

Additionally, I believe this is the first time the new strain of VHS has been seen in any salmonids; the article says they found it in king salmon in Huron.

[hunters08]

Your pessimism on this matter is quite interesting, I'm glad everyone doesn't share your views. That type of attitude will only help to spread VHS further.

Additionally, I believe this is the first time the new strain of VHS has been seen in any salmonids; the article says they found it in king salmon in Huron.

I didnt meen it in a bad way.I meant they (DEC)just like always waited to long before they did anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Let me guess you must be a bait dealer??   You posted they found vhs in st.clair in 2003 and if it was first found in quinte bay in 2005 that means it was alreadty in huron because the fish samples were taken from 2005 also,and you also posted "THAT ITS LONG OVER DO" bait fish regulations so you your self think the horse has left the building

[wnybassman]

I think the fact remains that nobody knows how far this disease has spread in New York, not even the DEC, without testing nearly every fish in every body of water.  If I understand correctly, testing could show VHS negative at one location within a lake, but could be successfully "breeding" at another location.

I agree some proper precautions should be taken, but then again, there are still WAY too many people out there that don't even know this exists, or simply don't care.  This sounds like it is truly a case of "one can spoil it for the rest of us" type situation.  99.9% of us can be doing the right thing, and the .1% come along and infect things anyway, knowingly or unknowingly.

Again, Conesus Lake is the disturbing thing to me.  We all can see how natural progression of a disease could travel with in the Great Lakes system, but Conesus is not connected.  How did it get there?  Bait releasing, fish stocking or did it come in in someone bilge/livewell water??  Any one of those could have been repeated on other waters dozens and dozens of times.

I think I am not alone in saying I like doing the right thing, but sometimes it is hard to put a lot of  extra effort into something knowing that people are very easily NOT doing the right thing.  I'm not sure if that came out clear, but I think you know what I mean.

[gair-z]

I think I am not alone in saying I like doing the right thing, but sometimes it is hard to put a lot of  extra effort into something knowing that people are very easily NOT doing the right thing.  I'm not sure if that came out clear, but I think you know what I mean.

loud and clear.  That's what I was thinking wny..  we bust our asses to find the certified bait (see posts on this site), follow the rules to a T. etc. and it seems as though the people responsible for instituting these rules don't (or can't) enforce them!  this is sorta hypocritical (and another word there I can't think of..)  if you read my post VHS:  who's been checked, it appears DEC is doing nothing on the enforcement end.  this baffles me..  this whole VHS deal is baffling..  maybe the DEC feels the same and know they have dropped the ball on the issue.   

gairz

[Cold-Foot]

There is a can of worms here guys. In order to in-force the law it would take (SO) many goverment inspectors, we don't have them on the payroll now and we aren't getting them. The best thing I - You - and everyone can do is never throw your left over bait in the the water. No one wants to start paying 5 to 10 times more for what they pay for bait now. No one wants to see disease spread to other lakes/ponds or fish. It's not a easy thing to control. More work needs to be done to control what comes into the great lakes from shipping. That's where it all comes from.

[doctariAFC]

I think the fact remains that nobody knows how far this disease has spread in New York, not even the DEC, without testing nearly every fish in every body of water.  If I understand correctly, testing could show VHS negative at one location within a lake, but could be successfully "breeding" at another location.

I agree some proper precautions should be taken, but then again, there are still WAY too many people out there that don't even know this exists, or simply don't care.  This sounds like it is truly a case of "one can spoil it for the rest of us" type situation.  99.9% of us can be doing the right thing, and the .1% come along and infect things anyway, knowingly or unknowingly.

Again, Conesus Lake is the disturbing thing to me.  We all can see how natural progression of a disease could travel with in the Great Lakes system, but Conesus is not connected.  How did it get there?  Bait releasing, fish stocking or did it come in in someone bilge/livewell water??  Any one of those could have been repeated on other waters dozens and dozens of times.

I think I am not alone in saying I like doing the right thing, but sometimes it is hard to put a lot of  extra effort into something knowing that people are very easily NOT doing the right thing.  I'm not sure if that came out clear, but I think you know what I mean.

Yep, or it could have come in through DEC fisheries activities, electroshock surveys, whatever.  That is another scary part about this conundrum, WE DON'T KNOW CHIT!

What we do know is that this pathogen, along with a laundry list of others, is not native to US waters.  We know VHS was first noticed on our coasts in the late 1990's.  We do know that it was present in this current strain in 2003 in Lake St Clair, we do know that in 2005 Lake Ontario showed positive presence as well.  We do know, like along with Koi Herpes Virus, Whirling Disease and many others, NOTHING WAS DONE, primarily due to no public health threat, and a severe shortage of resources at the DEC (one pathologist!!!! start there).

This pathogen, epizootic outbreak, is also now a political bone of contention.  Considering the current changes at the Governor's mansion in November, the DEC made the collective decision to do something (albeit, and unfortunately, largely symbolic, screwing anglers and residents of NY in the process).  Another part of that conundrum.  All the while, NYS has not addressed the root of the issue, and this one isn't even under DEC control!  It falls under the NYSDOT!!!!

However, considering who has just been appointed head of the DEC, Pete Grannis, Mr Anti himself (ASPCA and HSUS LOVE him, nuff said), some very bad winds are blowing, and the winds could end up biting sportsmen in NYS far harder than VHS can hurt the fisheries.

Ultimately, until we address the root, foreign vessels and ballast water, we will continue down this path.  If any of you know Tom Marks, director for Great Lakes Sport Fishing Council, ask him.  And on the heels of VHS, and while we are fretting over what to do, another invasive species has been identified in Lake Ontario, an invasive freshwater shrimp, which could devastate the lowest part of the food chain, effectively cutting screwing up baitfish on up.  I would have thought the discovery of West Nile Virus would have been the catalyst to protect our waters.  After all, that does present a public health threat.  That damned pathogen is across the entire lower 48 now.

The larger issue is what it is, and all the regs we put in place to stop fishermen from effectively fishing, out of fear of contaminating another water, or introducing a new organism, does nothing but symbolically delude ourselves into thinking we're doing something, while the back door remains wide open for further problems (a new invasive species of some sort is discovered in the Great Lakes Chain EVERY 8 MONTHS!!!!!)

FUBAR

[crayfishbob]

I'm afraid to say, but the crossing of VHS into Lake Huron will change everything. It's no longer going to be the great lakes effected, but it will be a national problem, as there is no land barrier to lake michigan, then on to the mississippi via the canal system. The federal government is not done yet...

In the lines of natural recourses in the united states, wild cought baitfish lands last. We are a minority here compared to the great aquacultural farms of the south and midwest. Its the food industry involved. I can't believe that the even fewer people that are catching thier own bait from infected waters would even mind JUST WAITING a year or two to see what transpires with this. Theres actually people out there that are still spreading this stuff around , knowing what's happening.

I wish everyone would think in the terms of today and tomorrow. Nevermind yesterday. If it's too late for a watershed, let's hope it runs its course. If its not infected yet, let's do everything we possibly can to stop it.

[JJ]

I didnt meen it in a bad way.I meant they (DEC)just like always waited to long before they did anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Let me guess you must be a bait dealer??   You posted they found vhs in st.clair in 2003 and if it was first found in quinte bay in 2005 that means it was alreadty in huron because the fish samples were taken from 2005 also,and you also posted "THAT ITS LONG OVER DO" bait fish regulations so you your self think the horse has left the building

I just didn't like the idea of people believing that VHS is already "everywhere", when there is no evidence to support that claim. Such inferences can lead to people choosing not to follow the new regulations.
You need to check your facts on the discovery of this new strain of VHS. It was not detected until 2005 anywhere, and it was not detected in NY until May 2006. VHS was confirmed in June 2006, and new regulations were enacted in Nov 2006. Yet you claim DEC dragged their feet, and waited too long before they did anything? New York has gone further than anyone to so the spread of VHS, yet people still criticize, when they should be commended.
The fact of the matter is that DEC came up with an effective plan to try to prevent the spread of a potentially devastating disease(to fish), which still allows fisherman to use live bait.  Believe me when I tell you, there is a real possibility that all baitfish use will be outlawed. We sportsman have been given our chance, we all need to follow through and obey the new regs, whether we like them or not.  Either that or get used to artificials, this is no joke, and neither is VHS.

[shawner]

     I thought I read in the report about the lake Huron sample that it was from specimens taken in 2003 from a die off and because they were so decomposed and a good example of VHS wasn't available that it was also thought that another disease may be at fault, botulism I believe. After the recent finding they went back to the frozen 2003 sample and confirmed its presence,that's the way I believe it went. DEC surveys and electro shocking do not contribute in any way to the spreading of any of the known viruses infact just the opposite. They are the tools used to take the samples and info needed to detect any problems, health and presence of species. All the vessels used are contaminant free, they do not transport bilge or livewell water from body to body. I have been involved in these activities and precautions are always part of any survey I was a part of especially using an electro-shocker.

[gair-z]

You need to check your facts on the discovery of this new strain of VHS. It was not detected until 2005 anywhere, and it was not detected in NY until May 2006. VHS was confirmed in June 2006, and new regulations were enacted in Nov 2006. Yet you claim DEC dragged their feet, and waited too long before they did anything? New York has gone further than anyone to so the spread of VHS, yet people still criticize, when they should be commended.

     I thought I read in the report about the lake Huron sample that it was from specimens taken in 2003 from a die off and because they were so decomposed and a good example of VHS wasn't available that it was also thought that another disease may be at fault, botulism I believe. After the recent finding they went back to the frozen 2003 sample and confirmed its presence,that's the way I believe it went.

doctari states, "We know VHS was first noticed on our coasts in the late 1990's"?? 

not 2005 or 2003.. they've (whomever) have known about this for a while..  If Mr. tari's facts are straight.   

gairz