IceShanty.com's Ice Fishing Community
New York => Ice Fishing New York => Topic started by: stringer on Jan 18, 2007, 06:13 PM
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I called warrensburg today and effective now there will be no live bait removed from ant body of water to another unless purchased certified which is fine but the areas I fish recquire smelt or alewives supposedly you can use dead bait I have a commercial license and if I don't obey this new law I may get a warning and may not because I have already been informed and alot of people have not. I personally have no problem with them trying to stop VHS but I might as well sell my stick equipment and rely on the vex. They are not sure what they are going to do with the hudson river and tribs as far as herring for live bait??? Iagree with the other post a bout lake Ontario keep letting the comm. boats pollute our waters and destroy or fishing FREE country my but only to money and power the rest of us are just to pay our way !!!
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My opinion is i think everyone should obey the law regardless wether its dead or alive. Are fisheries are very important to all of us and we should not jeopardize them in any way shape or form.
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i agree with PWR BAIT 100%
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I'll second that or third ,don't worry i'm not trying to pull any fast ones believe me to much to lose just stating what i've found out lately ,this is really messing up my normal habits that were totally legal until NOW . just wanted to see how this was effecting the rest of you guys.
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Personally, I will not do anything that might spread this disease to any place that I will be fishing. I agree we must protect our waters. I do' however have a big problem with the 100 minnow limit. I live in an area where there are no bait shops nearby, so I like to make one trip and buy a few hundred at a time, keeping them in a tank in my basement. This law will prevent me from doing that, and I can't run to the bait store every time I want to fish. If you are getting certified minnows, why does it matter how many of them you have? Certified = Certified.
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Personally, I will not do anything that might spread this disease to any place that I will be fishing. I agree we must protect our waters. I do' however have a big problem with the 100 minnow limit. I live in an area where there are no bait shops nearby, so I like to make one trip and buy a few hundred at a time, keeping them in a tank in my basement. This law will prevent me from doing that, and I can't run to the bait store every time I want to fish. If you are getting certified minnows, why does it matter how many of them you have? Certified = Certified.
I agree with you 100 percent!!!!!!!!! when i am perch fishing on lake erie sometimes i go through 200 emeralds so now i have to leave the hot bite and drive my boat back to shore go home get more minnows and drive back out to the hot bite that will no longer be hot and waste 20 dollars in gas what a joke!!!! My opinion on the certified bait is also a joke go look at crayfishes post he has a half million minnnows in a tank to sell.He only has to have 60 minnows tested for the whole half million to be certified!!!!! >:( :tipup:
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BOTTOM LINE...Do your part not to spread the disease :clap:
We all used to fish with baits that we trapped ourselves as kids...Right?
Times have changed...as our passing of generations...so do laws to accommodate population!
Get used to it...we haven't seen distruction yet :o
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What my supply compared to real baitfish people that are going through this is less than 10% in comaprision. How about 60 fish vs 10,000 lbs ? thats like 30,000,000 minnows, one test.
You should read and learn about this before you make any statements. Everything I write here is not only documented somewheres, or I can prove. VHS is very similar to rabies, with the exeption it spreads by cohabitation via urine. The state tests waters within a few yards of where I catch these minnows. Do you think for a minute that the state would miss it ? Or I'd see minnows bumming out after almost 8 weeks being cohabitated ?
I would worry about the outlaws that are hoarding infected minnows into earthen ponds. Earthen ponds can harbor the virus for very long periods of time.I spend a average of four hours every day on vhs, baifish research, posting here, getting VHS meetings together, ect.
I guess my willingness to go ahead and test and telling about it can cause controversy, but where else and who else will tell you the inside scoop of what's going on for real ? Do you think that i'm the only one that is abiding the law ? I can at least say i'm doing it by the book ! ( the blue book , that is !)
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What my supply compared to real baitfish people that are going through this is less than 10% in comaprision. How about 60 fish vs 10,000 lbs ? thats like 30,000,000 minnows, one test.
And you of all people after all the work you have done to slow this virus Dont think that it is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I read everything you post and have learned everything about it from you!!!! He asked what we feel about it, i feel the testing is a joke 60 minnows out of 30 million come on the odds are your missing the virus anyways!!!!! 100 minnow limit is stupid if you have certified minnows anyways. its not controversy he wanted opinions and i gave mine :tipup:
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It is all a pretty simple matter to me. I really don't care about any of it (wether the law is enforcable or not, or how relevant it is) except that I can't use bait from the black listed waters, simple enough to me, I go to bait shops that I know with 100% certainty will follow the rules. And when I catch my own bait in uninfected waters I will use them wherever I please. It all comes down to doing the right thing. Understanding where the waters are that are infected and not using bait from them, its seems pretty simple to me. Mass education rather than comming up with laws to throw out for interpritation would be where you would get the best bang for your buck. Kids in school should be learning about it, they are sponges, then when they come home they tell their moms and dads and then you have to listen to them, who wants to harm the enviornment in front of their kids? By putting the seminar listings in the fishing magazines and outdoor newspapers and sites like this it is not going to reach enough people to effectivly get out to enough people.
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And when I catch my own bait in uninfected waters I will use them wherever I please.
Umm, I thought that is what was supposed to be stopped? How do you know the waters are uninfected? Just because they are not on a list, doesn't mean that they are not.
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Exactly right WNYBassman, there should be no transfer of fish from any waters whether the disease has been found there or not.
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Yes, Hunters08, I do appreciate your opinion. And I do apoligise for being rash.
Also, my vhs meetings in particular, even though is at only a gander mountain and at a diner, I am reaching imorortant sectors for fishermen and alike. I invited the whole town of constantia, as I posted bulletins in Vella's ( a grocery store ) , two diners, the post office, and even the state hatchery.
For the gander mtn meeting, I posted on channel 9 news forum.
http://community.9wsyr.com/forums/235/ShowForum.aspx (http://community.9wsyr.com/forums/235/ShowForum.aspx)
I would say that i'm trying to reach alot of people, especially if the news show up.
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I think somehow, this is really going to cost NY millions and millions of dollars. I think this disease is going to spread no matter what because you will still have dumba%% fishermen who will catch bait out of infected lakes and transport them into non infected lakes. It will spread just like the zebra mussel.
The only buying 100 minnows at a time rule is crap too. If the bait is certified what does it matter how much I buy.
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No doubt something will need to be done to slow the spread of disease. But limiting bait, or restricting it all together may cause a larger problem. Fisherman will begin trapping their own bait, and transferring it from lake to lake which may spread disease faster since these baits will not be certified! :-\
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Thanks for some of your words rlwagner thats what i'm stating D>E>C> is supposibly not going to give only one or to warnings thenwith the computer tech. they are going to hand out tickets and what ever follows they said they are not taking this litely by no meens as i stated with my current permits i've already got my warning thats not a problem my problem is with 1000 to1100 dollar testing per time it pretty well shut down my fishing no one in my area is carring the bait i use shops are closing !!! by the way you can not catch any live bait good list or bad and use it any where else than where you caught it if you buy certified then you may go where ever bait is allowed.
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Thanks for some of your words rlwagner thats what i'm stating D>E>C> is supposibly not going to give only one or to warnings thenwith the computer tech. they are going to hand out tickets and what ever follows they said they are not taking this litely by no meens as i stated with my current permits i've already got my warning thats not a problem my problem is with 1000 to1100 dollar testing per time it pretty well shut down my fishing no one in my area is carring the bait i use shops are closing !!! by the way you can not catch any live bait good list or bad and use it any where else than where you caught it if you buy certified then you may go where ever bait is allowed.
I see black market bait becoming a quick profitable reality! Testing needs to be affordable, and first come first served on bait purchases for the angler, and scrap the limits.
Many local river/lake baitfish populations will become adversly effected if the angler is forced to "find his own" legal or not. This could then impact all of your/our fisheries in a negative manner. :-\
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I agree and some one said they had to pay 5 dollars for a dozen emeralds so thats 40 dollars for a 100 limit thats crazy if the bait shops are charging that they will have enough money to pay for testing. i hate even saying testing cause that is the biggest JOKE of all!!!!!! for 30 million minnows caught they need only test 60 thats not even 40 dollars worth at the 5 dollars a dozen. Lets figure this out 30 million minnows at 5 dollars for 12 comes out to if my figures are right, something like 12,500,000.00 dollars and they only had to spend 1100. Crayfish has 500,000 ready to sell that comes out to 210,000 dollars at 5 dollars for 12 how much are you charging crayfish? thanks :tipup:
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Crayfish senses a trap... proceeds carefully... :o
Ok here's the lowdown. I payed $200.00 for the use of a marina way back in August before this ever came about ( the vhs laws ) I repaired a cage for $50.00, I then payed $165.00 for a new cage that was not correctly constructed, so I had to send it back. I missed the best run of minnows during this time. I then built another cage at $100.00, then I spent aproxamatly $80.00 on gas . I payed $50.00 for shipping, and I'm about to pay $700 for testing. I'm the only one that found four testing labs and I deserve this break for my work. It is a state run agency, so there is no backyard lab testing here. So that's $1345.00 , and if not for being perstisant, it would be $1685.
That's pretty close to $1.00 per lb, into them.then theres my time and labor with a bad back. Going minnow hunting is a everyday event with a routine that gets old, but it has to get done.
I could charge outlandish prices, but obviously, you don't know me. This is the very reason I went and this this is so there would be normal prices. you tell me what normal price is so I can set it !
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I forgot. There's polls set up on my site for bait issues. I opened up that part of forum so the public can make thier own polls. I did this before any of these posts came up, BTW.
So you can vote, or make a poll about PWRbait's pink stockings for all I care !
http://www.oneidalake.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=14 (http://www.oneidalake.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=14)
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As a fisherman who enjoys the sport I think that we as a whole should not depend or wait for the DEC to do something but should take action ourselves by not taking bait that has not been certified from one body to another. The DEC has moved in circles and ended up right back where they started. We had a meeting back in December at our club to discuss what and how this would effect our derby held here in February. We offered our Data base for The Northern Challenge Ice Fishing Derby of 2000 to them for a mailing. We offered to go to Ray Brook and help fold and stuff envelopes for them. DEC thought it was a great idea. All they had to do is draft up a letter telling people what they wanted. As of yet we have heard nothing and don't expect to. Just another instance where someone dropped the ball and it wasn't the sportsmen.
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I forgot. There's polls set up on my site for bait issues. I opened up that part of forum so the public can make thier own polls. I did this before any of these posts came up, BTW.
So you can vote, or make a poll about PWRbait's pink stockings for all I care !
http://www.oneidalake.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=14 (http://www.oneidalake.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=14)
Well bob i posted my opinions on your forum wouldnt let me vote in the poll though.I also wanted to say that i am in no way trying to trap you in anything!!!I am just giving my opinions and waiting for a reply. Thank you :tipup:
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I forgot i cant really tell you a price I have caught my minnows for years !!!and when i didnt i have a little woman over here in jamestown in her 80's that gives me around 50 emeralds for two dollars so i couldnt give you a price But i will tell you she has probably shut her doors over this!!! I dont know because i still have probably 15,000 minnows left.I will find out soon because as you know we are starting to form ice!!!! :tipup:
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Well bob i posted my opinions on your forum wouldnt let me vote in the poll though.I also wanted to say that i am in no way trying to trap you in anything!!!I am just giving my opinions and waiting for a reply. Thank you :tipup:
My humor leaves a little bit to be desired, i'm sure. I went into admin panel and fixed the poll vote option. I forgot it was set for registered users by default.
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I am a commercially licensed Bait Dealer, and have 45 years experience in dipping, transporting, wholesaling and retailing! My experiences in Minnow harvesting has been from Lakes Erie, Ontario, the Niagara River and almost all the legal l isted tributaries from the PA border to Sodus, New York!
I have seen this condition in Lake Erie Emerald Shiners for atleast the last 8-10 years. The DEC has known about this condition for the last 8 years, and has stood by and done nothing; then one day starts action over this like their pants are on fire. I know for a fact, NYSDEC has taken the most expanded regulatory posture of any of the adjoining states who have joined the VHS Band Wagon so far. If you review the regulatory posture, you will see that our agency, the DEC has went ballistic in comparison, as to what is being done by the other states
I petitioned the DEC almost 10 years ago now, to start a Great Lakes reference pannel of Bait Fish, Game Fish, and Non-Game Fish species to include all aquatic life forms from A-Z. This reference pannel would consist of sub samples collected at various areas of ie, Lake Erie and Ontario by species, and the sub samples collected various distances anong the shore line would be composited and frozen in state owned and maintained facilities!
My reason for suggesting this reference pannel was the lack of DNA sample material from the Blue Pike, however one could see how this frozen reference pannel could be archieved, and later tested to determine exactly when any species of Great Lake
Fish became involved with any occurance such as VHS. The DEC lacks insight, and still has no reference specimens on ice to go back to!
This VHS sampling plan is ajoke as well, the DEC makes these crazy laws like certification and doesn't seem to care how much it costs us sportsmen to procure live bait .The DEC has infected the waters of the Great Lakes by stocking UNCERTIFIED HATCHERY FISH from out of state sources! This is more so proven by the presence of VHS in fish from Conesus Lake, where years ago the DEC started to stock Western Strain Rainbow Trout The state DEC only started testing brood fish from Western USA sources only after Whirling Disease was found.Forget their theory nonsense of this disease being brought in from ocean vessels from Europe! They blame everyting on that, give us a break!
I have already seen black market minnows for sale, and am sure it will only get worse, and uncontrollable! I have been force feeding my own fish pond with Lake Erie Emeralds for the last 12 years, and have Trout,Walleye,Perch as well as Black/White Crappie, all on the list of fish suposedly effected by VHS; and have yet to see a infected fish!
Finally in all of this mess, I must admit, that NYSDEC law about the 100 minnows per bucket is not unrealistic; look at Ontario Canada, they have had a 50 minnow per person limit dating back to the 70s
Certain large bait dealers in New York have banded together and are going to sue DEC for this nonsense rules/regulations, it will be fun to see what happens. For now, I have renewed my DEC Commercial Netting License, and all other sub netting licenses for certain cities, villages and towns in hopes that this will blow over soon. I would never pay a red cent to test any lot of minnows, you are just falling into the DEC game plan where they think we are stupid, and will do their work for them,and at no cost to them. Too many Good Dooers out there, they keep passing unrealistic laws, and keep taking away or rights! First it was shooting crows only on Friday,Saturdays,Sundays and Mondays, then it was no more splitshot to be sold in New York State, now its contaminated bait on a state wide level. Is the DEC really with us, or against us; hard To Tell isn't it!
bearlake_bob
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How would you know that you are buying "certified " minnows? Do you have to carry a certificate of authenticity of a minnow with pictures and mug shots of all the minnows? How on earth is DEC going to be able to look into a minnow bucket and say "those minnows are not certified"?
It sounds to me like the DEC is planning on getting into the live bait for a fortune business.
If these minnows need to be certified,"tested", why doesn't the state fund and set up testing labs for the minnow mongers to use for free???
Where is everybody buying the right minnows?? Did it raise the price of minnows by much?? This is the first I heard of it.
JK
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I understand that they are worried about VHS and it should be controlled. It will hurt the bait dealers and it will hurt us. As far as the 100 minnow limit goes that is something I am used to as I am originally from PA and that is how it was when I lived there. If you are out on the lake and run out of bait it is quite easy to scoop some emeralds and who is gonna know where you got the 100 from in your bucket. Though I feel the DEC is doing something correct here maybe they should spend a little more time on rethinking all of theese deer tags they give out. Cut it back to two or three and give an antler restriction also one buck per season bow, shotgun/rifle, or muzzleloader your choice. If I saw half as many deer in NY as I see when I go to PA for two days of rifle hunting here would be great. Instead everyone gets all these tags and though we dont all use all of them there are those that do. I dont think NY wants any deer around. Sorry to get off subject.
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I'm glad all of you know more than our DEC biologists, they come up with a plan to reduce the spread of VHS, yet many who disagree offer no effective alternatives. I commend our DEC for taking bold steps even though they supposedly lack insight according to Bear Lake Bob. This isn't going to "blow over", in fact we are going to see further restictions on baitfish use, something that has been long overdue.
OUR fisheries departments have been underfunded and understaffed for years (it has been about a year now that we have had a fisheries biologist in the Lake George area, a position was vacant for something like 6-8 yrs), yet some want them to pay for testing? We do live in a market economy, and if it cost more to provide bait for sale then the price should come up accordingly (yet around here the prices haven't changed?).
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Mousies, baby, mousies. Seriously, I've caught plenty of nice perch on them. So, I might have to work a little harder for decent keepers. But, that's ok by me. And I haven't heard of any problems with fatheads, either, unless I'm missing something.
I'll be happy to just get out there and fish. If I catch enough on Saturday for a nice breakfast for the family Sunday, I'm happy.
Pokerman
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What everyone has to remember is its the DEC who is in the drivers seat, whether right or wrong. They can stop the sale of minnows alltogether to simplify things. Maybe they should ! Today, I'm trying to reach my local assembly man. What are doing for the future of your fishery ?
It's a daily event, I read, educate myself, then educate others.
I think of VHS as a vampire, out in the woods reaking havok, spreading his little disease unchecked. We can sit and argue all about what his next move is, but he goes on his merry way. I just want to inform people not to give this creep a ride to the next town, try to stop him before theres vampires all over the place.
Hands down, I believe that { besides us that are informed } the spread of this disease will be by human intervention and the people that does it don't even know what VHS means. Its the weekend warrier with a 6 pack in his hand and a party boat. And if you told this dude you better check his bilge, he'd probly punch you in the nose !
It takes once ! then its over for that lake !
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I know I got off subject but I do agree with the DEC on the spread of the disease. I know I want to fish the rest of my life and dont want it to get ruined by a disease that we kowingly spread.
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What everyone has to remember is its the DEC who is in the drivers seat, whether right or wrong. They can stop the sale of minnows alltogether to simplify things. Maybe they should ! Today, I'm trying to reach my local assembly man. What are doing for the future of your fishery ?
It's a daily event, I read, educate myself, then educate others.
I think of VHS as a vampire, out in the woods reaking havok, spreading his little disease unchecked. We can sit and argue all about what his next move is, but he goes on his merry way. I just want to inform people not to give this creep a ride to the next town, try to stop him before theres vampires all over the place.
Hands down, I believe that { besides us that are informed } the spread of this disease will be by human intervention and the people that does it don't even know what VHS means. Its the weekend warrier with a 6 pack in his hand and a party boat. And if you told this dude you better check his bilge, he'd probly punch you in the nose !
It takes once ! then its over for that lake !
Bob, I commend you on your passion regarding the VHS issue, too few sportsmen in NY get involved and too many believe New York State should be able to do everything necessary to provide us great hunting and fishing. As you have stated education of sportsmen is highly important to keep VHS in check, yet difficult to achieve.
Unfortunately, it only takes on person that does know or doesn't care to screw things up. Like the idiots that decided to put bass into Little Tupper Lake after the Whitneys turned the property over to NY. One of the last native brook trout strains pretty much destroyed, for what?
We need more sportsmen to get involved and do something positive for our fisheries.
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Captjj
I'm not trying to start a p!!$$!ng match here but you have to agree that although the DEC may know what they are talking about as far as what VHS is and how badly it can effect our fisheries you have to admit that the DEC has a record of putting the cart before the horse. As I had said in an earlier post as to what we offered to do for them and they agreed it would target the main people they want to. It's been over a month and we have heard nothing after 3 calls to them. Also if you check out an article in the Malone Telegram News it states that the removal of the dam in Ft Covington will not help spread VHS. This dam s less then 3 miles from the St Lawrence River, which is one of the VHS positive sites. It also stated that the DEC has treated the Salmon river for VHS. First off there is no treatment as of yet. This article was sent to them and I asked for a response to clarify the facts. They have never contacted the paper. (I have realitives who work there)
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I am a commercially licensed Bait Dealer, and have 45 years experience in dipping, transporting, wholesaling and retailing! My experiences in Minnow harvesting has been from Lakes Erie, Ontario, the Niagara River and almost all the legal l isted tributaries from the PA border to Sodus, New York!
I have seen this condition in Lake Erie Emerald Shiners for atleast the last 8-10 years. The DEC has known about this condition for the last 8 years, and has stood by and done nothing; then one day starts action over this like their pants are on fire. I know for a fact, NYSDEC has taken the most expanded regulatory posture of any of the adjoining states who have joined the VHS Band Wagon so far. If you review the regulatory posture, you will see that our agency, the DEC has went ballistic in comparison, as to what is being done by the other states
I petitioned the DEC almost 10 years ago now, to start a Great Lakes reference pannel of Bait Fish, Game Fish, and Non-Game Fish species to include all aquatic life forms from A-Z. This reference pannel would consist of sub samples collected at various areas of ie, Lake Erie and Ontario by species, and the sub samples collected various distances anong the shore line would be composited and frozen in state owned and maintained facilities!
My reason for suggesting this reference pannel was the lack of DNA sample material from the Blue Pike, however one could see how this frozen reference pannel could be archieved, and later tested to determine exactly when any species of Great Lake
Fish became involved with any occurance such as VHS. The DEC lacks insight, and still has no reference specimens on ice to go back to!
This VHS sampling plan is ajoke as well, the DEC makes these crazy laws like certification and doesn't seem to care how much it costs us sportsmen to procure live bait .The DEC has infected the waters of the Great Lakes by stocking UNCERTIFIED HATCHERY FISH from out of state sources! This is more so proven by the presence of VHS in fish from Conesus Lake, where years ago the DEC started to stock Western Strain Rainbow Trout The state DEC only started testing brood fish from Western USA sources only after Whirling Disease was found.Forget their theory nonsense of this disease being brought in from ocean vessels from Europe! They blame everyting on that, give us a break!
I have already seen black market minnows for sale, and am sure it will only get worse, and uncontrollable! I have been force feeding my own fish pond with Lake Erie Emeralds for the last 12 years, and have Trout,Walleye,Perch as well as Black/White Crappie, all on the list of fish suposedly effected by VHS; and have yet to see a infected fish!
Finally in all of this mess, I must admit, that NYSDEC law about the 100 minnows per bucket is not unrealistic; look at Ontario Canada, they have had a 50 minnow per person limit dating back to the 70s
Certain large bait dealers in New York have banded together and are going to sue DEC for this nonsense rules/regulations, it will be fun to see what happens. For now, I have renewed my DEC Commercial Netting License, and all other sub netting licenses for certain cities, villages and towns in hopes that this will blow over soon. I would never pay a red cent to test any lot of minnows, you are just falling into the DEC game plan where they think we are stupid, and will do their work for them,and at no cost to them. Too many Good Dooers out there, they keep passing unrealistic laws, and keep taking away or rights! First it was shooting crows only on Friday,Saturdays,Sundays and Mondays, then it was no more splitshot to be sold in New York State, now its contaminated bait on a state wide level. Is the DEC really with us, or against us; hard To Tell isn't it!
bearlake_bob
I think that was well said!!!! :tipup:
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Mousies, baby, mousies. Seriously, I've caught plenty of nice perch on them. So, I might have to work a little harder for decent keepers. But, that's ok by me. And I haven't heard of any problems with fatheads, either, unless I'm missing something.
I'll be happy to just get out there and fish. If I catch enough on Saturday for a nice breakfast for the family Sunday, I'm happy.
Pokerman
Apparently you have never fished lake erie for perch :tipup:
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Well now that the law inforcement has reached the high level they have to have something to right tickets about I personally agree with some, sprotsman will do it lets just try to monitor them.
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Just to sum up one experience asked a biologist how to catch a certain bait at a certain lake they said when you figure it out call back and let us know. (yea right )!!
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I think that was well said!!!! :tipup:
Just a observation....
It was a good post, but some of his facts don't measure up. This strain of VHS has not effected trout or salmon for some odd reason.
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What fish has it affected other than sheephead?thanks :tipup:
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Well it did a good job on gobies ! :clap:
Let's see, yellow perch, sheephead, sturgeon, muskies, ....well, here's the report from the aphis site...
Table 1. Outbreaks of Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia in the Great Lakes 2005-2006
Date Location State or Province Primary species (Other species) Estimated Comments
2003-05 Lake St. Clair MI Muskellunge 4 of 27 Samples submitted over several years
Summer 05 Bay of Quinte /Lake Ontario Ontario Freshwater Drum
(Muskellunge Round Goby) Several hundred tons Very large natural mortality
May 06 Sandusky Bay/Lake Erie OH Freshwater Drum Very large mortality "Windrows" of fish on beach
May 06 St. Lawrence River NY Round Goby
(Muskellunge) Large die off River origin
May 06 Lake Erie OH Yellow Perch Large die off Fish dying in commercial traps
May 06 Lake Ontario Ontario Freshwater Drum
Smallmouth Bass
Bluegill Crappie Mortality event Acute mortality - no external signs
May 06 Lake Erie OH Yellow Perch
Walleye
White bass
(Freshwater Drum Smallmouth Bass) Mortality in wild Samples from area of traps and mortality
June 06 Lake St. Clair MI Gizzard shad
Redhorse sucker
Blunt nose sucker
Northern pike
(Yellow perch) Large mortality
What is VHS and where does it occur? VHS is caused by an aquatic rhabdovirus. It has long been considered a serious disease of rainbow trout and a few other freshwater fish species raised for commercial aquaculture in Europe . Known as Egtved virus in these fish populations, VHS virus causes high mortality and can have severe economic consequences. For this reason, VHS is listed as a reportable disease by the World Organization for Animal Health (the OIE ─ formerly the Office International des Epizooties). Related VHS virus strains have also been isolated from a variety of marine fishes in the North Pacific, North Atlantic , and seas around northern Europe and Japan .
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What everone must understand, its not just the dec, APHIS/ USDA ( the feds, dude)and the World organisation for animal health are involved.
And this strain is different from the one in europe, as here it has yet bothered trout/salmon.
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I have lived at different places through out the country, so I can tell you 1st hand that our DEC is no different in the fact that they are VERY understaffed and underfunded for the things that "should" be done. Keep in mind that it IS a governmental agency that is dictated over by "government" thinkers. The majority within it's ranks are diehard outdoors people and are in it because of a true love and concern for our environment. Personally, I think that the emergency ban on transportation of baitfish(and other fish) was warranted and I commend them for taking what I'm sure they knew would be an unpopular road to help curb the spread of the disease. I do not doubt that they may have known something sooner (even years sooner) as stated previously. The problem I have with that is why didn't they do anything back then. If that is the case, I'm upset that they let it go so long without doing this sooner. However, from what I've read (and no, it's hasn't all been DEC reading material) it doesn't look like it's been in our area for the past 10 years. I just find it hard to believe that the DEC could regulate what was written by federal and private writers on the subject. However, I'm not here to argue over anything, just to state my opinion about the "now" on the subject. Regardless of anything else, I feel with the potential long term impact that this could have on NY states fisheries, that the DEC/state in general are NOT doing a good job on educating the public about the virus in general. For something that could have such a widespread negative impact, I do not think they are following through very well after putting the "emergency regulations" into effect. Like that(emerg regs), somehow in itself, will end or at least contain the problem. That is the single reason that I have agreed to help Bob with the Gander Mountain meeting. I feel that if I can help to educate just one person that day, then I have made a difference. The more we get the word out and recognized by others, the better our chances of helping to contain the problem. Even people that don't fish don't want to have hundreds, thousand or maybe even hundreds of thousands of fish washing up on their shores from something that could have been prevented. The problem has, does and always will lye with us as the outdoors people of NY. Most will do what they can to help in their own way, but not all of us. There will always be that very small percentage that is only out for themselves. All it will take is one person not caring and taking fish not VHS free to a body of water that doesn't have it yet and that will be the start of that lakes infection. There is nothing you can do about them. But if it gets spread because someone was ignorant on the subject, that can not be exceptable. We are part of group that has ALWAYS had to take care of itself. We pay for everything we enjoy in many ways and get little or no help from people outside of our "outdoor" groups. So, it should come as no suprise to anyone that we as NY citizens are going to have to do some work to get this issue publicly recognized. If you don't want to be active, that is fine. Just do your personal part to ensure YOU are not moving the virus around. Also, don't knock people that are trying to be more active no matter how inconsequential or overboard it may appear to you. Division is what makes it so hard to get anything done within a government body. The last thing we need is any kind of division for any reason at all. We all want the same thing! A fishery not only for us to enjoy, but for our children and for generations to come beyond even them!
mike
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Kids in school should be learning about it, they are sponges, then when they come home they tell their moms and dads and then you have to listen to them, who wants to harm the enviornment in front of their kids?
AMEN
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I think its interesting that VHS has been in NY for 5 years and now all of a sudden there is widespread panic from DEC. I want to know what changed. How did it go on so long without much hub-bub.
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I think its interesting that VHS has been in NY for 5 years and now all of a sudden there is widespread panic from DEC. I want to know what changed. How did it go on so long without much hub-bub.
Here's how I sum it up.
Ok we have this virus killing fish in the great lakes. Where it came from we have our suspicions, but its unproven.
Then we have a huge amount of food grown in the united states by aquaculturists. Its a multi million dollar business comprising of hundreds of farms.
The national aquacultural association sent this to APHIS/ USDA :
http://www.nationalaquaculture.org/pages/documents/VHSVltrtoAPHIS.pdf (http://www.nationalaquaculture.org/pages/documents/VHSVltrtoAPHIS.pdf)
It basiccly asks APHIS/USDA to take action.
Then a federal order was issued to stop the flow of fish from the great lakes region without being tested fish, inc baitfish.
The DEC was basiclly obligated to do something. All fish fall under what they call "the blue book" as I understand it. They merely standardised it to the guildlines. There is nothing wrong with that.
The guys in the bait business are too busy fighting it, instead, all they had to do is read a little and find testing labs. and work with it.
Also , its common knowledge to all bait dealers that testing by the blue book has been going on for years. So what's the problem ?
And i'll tell you what, if bootleg minnows are out there and its common knowledge, then its going to get tougher for everyone.
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Great Thread, very important, glad to see it is being discussed.
I see some info that is great, on the money, I see other info that is off the mark. Since I have attended the meetings (Jan 8, Woodlawn Beah) took copious notes, and have the power point presentation the DEC put forth during this meeting, please allow me to shed some light. LOts of questions, not a ton of answers.
1 - The particular Strain of VHS affects primarily warm water species and baitfish. Type IV B of VHS differs from the European strain, which was first found in fish culture operations, farming rainbow trout. It has since been found on both Atlantic and Pacific Coasts of NA, affecting trout and salmon.
2 - The Federal Order issued 10/24/06 addresses transport of live fish, 37 total species. Counting marine species, VHS is known to affect over 40, but this is all types of VHS, not solely IV B. An exception to the halt of live fish movements across the Great Lakes and from Canada, fish which are certified from either a clean source (fish farm, tested and certified annually), or it is a clean "lot", each lot tested, and results are clean, allowed fish stocks used for fish farms, ponds, lakes, etc, to continue.
3 - NYS has been the first state to act in such a fashion, Ontario has followed suit, recently (@ Jan 1) their own regulations, albeit not as stringent as NYS.
4 - Virus is most active at colder temps (40-60), can show no outward symptoms of illness in afflicted fish, and, again, strikes a wide range of species. Fish that do survive infection could be carriers of VHS for life, able to infect other fish.
There's more, but, if you want more info, visit one of the many web sites that has info on this pathogen.
Emergency Regs in NYS - which took effect 11/21/06, acts to prohibit collection activities in known infected waters, establishes limits for personal possession (100) of baitfish (alive or dead, don't matter), commercial sale of bait must be certified either origin was from a clean source, or the lot was tested and results were clean.
Personal collection of bait is limited to only the waters where you intend to fish. As its defined right now, wanna fish Lake Erie, catch bait from Erie. Wanna Fish Upper Niagara, must catch bait from UNR. Lower, same, Lake Ontario, same).
Limit, according to DEC, is to reduce the likelihood of intentional or accidental release of minnows into the lake. They used Ontario's PL of 120 baitfish and PA's limit of 50 baitfish as justification, saying, "we're middle of the road". Of course, they neglected to inform you that PA's 50 limit is extended to those who collect bait themselves. If you purchase bait from a dealer, unlimited possession limit, with receipt acting as exemption mechanism.
I see no one here is addressing the private property rights infringements, either. If you own two ponds, completely contained within your property boundaries, you can NO LONGER MOVE FISH FROM ONE OF YOUR PONDS TO ANOTHER, without testing. How's that for a kick in the jewels?
Oh, did I mention, NO PUBLIC HEALTH THREAT?
Public Comment period ends today at 5PM. We have crafted a response, and literally thousands of them will be hitting Shaun Keeler's desk. You can comment by email. PM me for the generic copy of the letter, and the email address, if you are interested.
Why is the DEC acting as they are now? Two words.... New Governor. Since Sheehan has resigned, her last day was LW Wed., folks are scrambling to make sure they aren't slacking on this issue. With the short list of potential new commissioners reading like a Who's Who and the Nature Conservancy or Park Dept., (historically not friends to anglers and hunters), VHS could be a "house-cleaning" excuse. Let's hope that doesn't happen, especially in Region 9.
Make no mistake, laws will certainly be changed. The legislative process isn't started just to reverse it as a "my bad, take back". But we all should be sending in a comment.
Let me know of your needs. This one is major. APologies for not getting to this site sooner... Lots of issues to contend with and only so many hours in a week.
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Great post and thanks for information.
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so if you buy bait do you get a certificate that says in clean? that way you can show the officer that your legal? if that wasnt the case how would one know if a baitfish is infected or not?>
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well i hope everyone did what they had to do!!!! :tipup:
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I am very upset with this whole deal.I have fished on this lake erie for over 30 years since iv been a child.perch fishing in lake erie is the only reason i keep my boat on the water.I do alittle may.june eye fishing in the shallows,i also spin cast for trout and salmon in the fall.For the most part i will chose to sell my boat and move from n.y state.If nosense laws are put through.The idea some bait shop owner,that doesnt even live around here is going to push a law down our throats that prohibits "us"from neting our own bait is ludacrist!Am i the only one who see"s a red flag here?man if i sold bait id be on the wagon in a second.If this person was just a fisherman id be less suspicous.Im going to post in ohio"s area and ask the fishermen whole live there and witnessed this masive kill off of yellow perch and see what they tell us what they have seen.I will also post in the other areas listed to see what these guys have to say aboat this and if it really effected there fishing in that area.And if this vhs has been in lake erie for at least a couple years,wheres all the dead fish????????So its okay for a bait dealer to transport minnows from one lake to be sold and used on another lake?that sounds like it would spread it fastr than anything.And how could anyone know for sure the bait was 100%clean?unless every minnow was tested.I know for a fact thousands of guys have netted millions of emeralds over the years and have brought it to onedia lake<chautauqua lake ect and have done so everyweek or so for the last 100years.If its gona spread by using emerald shinners than it must be to late.once it gets into chaut.lake it will travle down the chatacoin?spelling/?and into the allegany river and into the mississippi river ways>is our fishing doomed?or will we see a bunch of crazy no sense laws<and maybe 22tons of dead sheaphead?wildlifecaretaker are you at all in the bait buess?or are you just a concernd fisherman?just curious.I will post more.peace
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It really is unenforceable they need another plan.
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doctariAFC --- great post. I wish you were here for the last 2 months. Dig back in posts, there are many posts. Most of what you wrote has been covered, and its good to see it all compiled completly like that. I hope this post keeps going !
Mr. Esox-- Yes the plan. I just wish DEC would stop the taking of infected baitfish all together. I got a privare message about guys hording infected minnows. That's positivly insane.
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I am still a little in the dark about how we prove to an ECO that we have certified minnows. Do we get a certificate proving that our minnows are legal?? How does this crap work??
JK
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You as a fisherman with a fishing liscence have nothing to prove unless you have over 100 minnows. IF you do get asked where you got them, tell them that's all.
If you use bait that you personally cought, then you still can only have 100, then only can use them in the body of water you gcought them in.
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I am still a little in the dark about how we prove to an ECO that we have certified minnows. Do we get a certificate proving that our minnows are legal?? How does this crap work??
JK
YOU do not have to. The bait shop is supposed to have posted or at least have available a certificate showing the the bait is tested and deemed VHS free. You do not need anything out there with you. That is one of the holes that a lot of the people on here are complaining about. It seems to be a hollow threat, so to speak, with the DEC relying on the honor system when it comes to fisher-people.
stickyfingerdpuppeter-I am just a fisherman and complete lover of the outdoors. I'm not a scientist or otherwise any kind of guru on this subject, but I have enough information to try to help prevent the spread of the problem. That alone is what my personal agenda is....education! I had missed it previously, but I LOVED the idea of presenting it to children at school and then letting them bring it home to their parents. As stated, nobody wants to look unconcerned in front of their children. In general, I don't see a lot more that we can do to help the cause other than to help to educate anyone who will listen. They have worked on "cures" and vaccines with little success. What few things have been tried have effected such an extremely small percentage of the test fish(or not worked at all) that for all practical purposes, it was deemed not to be effective. Anyone interested in looking at more info for themselves can do a search for "VHS virus" and a TON of stuff comes up. I tried to stay away from "things" put out by governments, state or federal, and looked for papers put out by academia. For myself, I don't usually get involved in things like this. My time is generally put into the environment or animals directly, so this is a little new to me. I have volunteered at the hatcheries, at various wildlife rehabs, nature centers, etc. In Nebraska, I belonged to an ATV club and we would go out into area and help to reseed, clear debris and other things to help out the parks around the state. I also do everything within my power to instill my love of and respect for our environment into the heads and hearts of ALL the kids in my life. I try to keep out of the political and public parts of issues. However, I felt that I could help with this, so here I am. I just felt that the state was dropping the ball with their almost complete lack of educating the public. I know there have been meeting, news articles, etc, but I feel they have fallen WAY short on their responsibility. I don't care what other states are or are not doing as I don't live in them. I do care I guess, but as the saying goes, concentrate on your own back yard 1st.
On a side note, good luck to all that are finally getting out on the ice. I will be heading to the the 1000 islands area this weekend i think if anyone would like to meet me there or accompany me from the Syracuse area. Just don't get crazy from the long wait and rush into the unknown. The last thing any of us wants to hear about is that someone has gone through the ice. Stay on top and catch a big one for NY for the IS online derby.
mike
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I am very upset with this whole deal.I have fished on this lake erie for over 30 years since iv been a child.perch fishing in lake erie is the only reason i keep my boat on the water.I do alittle may.june eye fishing in the shallows,i also spin cast for trout and salmon in the fall.For the most part i will chose to sell my boat and move from n.y state.If nosense laws are put through.The idea some bait shop owner,that doesnt even live around here is going to push a law down our throats that prohibits "us"from neting our own bait is ludacrist!Am i the only one who see"s a red flag here?man if i sold bait id be on the wagon in a second.If this person was just a fisherman id be less suspicous.Im going to post in ohio"s area and ask the fishermen whole live there and witnessed this masive kill off of yellow perch and see what they tell us what they have seen.I will also post in the other areas listed to see what these guys have to say aboat this and if it really effected there fishing in that area.And if this vhs has been in lake erie for at least a couple years,wheres all the dead fish????????So its okay for a bait dealer to transport minnows from one lake to be sold and used on another lake?that sounds like it would spread it fastr than anything.And how could anyone know for sure the bait was 100%clean?unless every minnow was tested.I know for a fact thousands of guys have netted millions of emeralds over the years and have brought it to onedia lake<chautauqua lake ect and have done so everyweek or so for the last 100years.If its gona spread by using emerald shinners than it must be to late.once it gets into chaut.lake it will travle down the chatacoin?spelling/?and into the allegany river and into the mississippi river ways>is our fishing doomed?or will we see a bunch of crazy no sense laws<and maybe 22tons of dead sheaphead?wildlifecaretaker are you at all in the bait buess?or are you just a concernd fisherman?just curious.I will post more.peace
I agree that the bait dealers Should not have a say in weather or not i can catch my own bait.especially if the testing is going to happen the way crayfish has explained it.Let us all know what the ohio board says about there massive die off of yellow perch from VHS. Thank you :tipup:
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posted by hunters08****I agree that the bait dealers Should not have a say in weather or not i can catch my own bait.especially if the testing is going to happen the way crayfish has explained it.Let us all know what the ohio board says about there massive die off of yellow perch from VHS. Thank you****
I have to admit that i catch so little of my own bait, that what you 2 have stated has not really been in my thoughts during this whole thing. However, upon reading and thinking about what you have said, I have to admit that I see where you are going with what you've said and have to agree with you to a certain degree. I think they should have input, but no more or less than anyone else that this problem will effect. I can see SOME people(bait dealers) taking advantage of a situation like this. Most I don't think would, but there's always got to be those few that ruin it for a whole group. Bob, don't take offense to that as I like and trust you to do the right thing for yourself, your customers and most importantly your environment. However, not all are like you. To the others on here, I'm not attacking you either, just making a general statement. The comment just made sense after I had thought about it for a little bit.
mike
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doctariAFC --- great post. I wish you were here for the last 2 months. Dig back in posts, there are many posts. Most of what you wrote has been covered, and its good to see it all compiled completly like that. I hope this post keeps going !
Mr. Esox-- Yes the plan. I just wish DEC would stop the taking of infected baitfish all together. I got a privare message about guys hording infected minnows. That's positivly insane.
Ditto. Been up to my you know what politicking on this issue. Its a bit mind boggling to say the least. My top beef with the proposals are the private property rights infringements. My buddy, and regular here, THEOZON, is facing property rights infringements with his land and ponds. Its FUBAR.
Another issue is the commercial collection of baitfish from the Great Lakes. No commercial collection of bait from waters to be known to be infected. But personal collection of bait is ok. What we are proposing is to prohibit personal collection of bait from the Great Lakes, but allow commercial collection and sale for use in the Great Lakes only. The trouble is enforcement, as many have pointed out. The commercial baitfish dealers are KNOWN. Individual anglers are not. Here, this is the letter that was sent by many, many folks to the DEC. This was crafted by myself and Dave Barus, Corresponding Secretary of the ECFSC, our fish comittee chairman, and a member of the Erie County Fisheries Advisory Board:
Mr. Shaun Keeler
NYSDEC – Bureau of Fisheries
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233-4753
RE: 6NYCRR Parts 10 – Sportfishing Regulations, 35 – Licenses, and 188 – Fish Health Inspections Requirements - Draft Proposals – Formal Comment
Dear Mr. Keeler;
I write this concerning the proposed draft regulations presented by the NYSDEC in response to the discovery of Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia in NYS waters, and the efforts aimed at containing the spread of this potentially damaging pathogen to other waters.
Although I agree we must act to protect our State’s waters, natural resources and fisheries, I believe the regulations as proposed will accomplish none of the goals intended, while causing greater harm to the abilities of the NYSDEC to protect the State’s resources, and set dangerous and unnecessary precedence regarding property rights and the authority of the State.
Transport of live fish, as it pertains to private property/ private pond owners
• Current proposed regulations would effectively strip property owners of their rights to transport fish (species listed on the Federal order dated 10/24/06) between private bodies of water contained within their property boundaries.
• Since no public health threat exists with VHS, the State has no legal right to impose such regulations.
Personal Limit of 100 baitfish per angler (alive or dead)
• Recommend changing this proposal to apply in a similar intent as PA, 100 – baitfish per angler, if personally collected for personal use in the body of water where it was collected.
• Anglers purchasing bait from a licensed bait dealer would be exempt from this regulation (unlimited possession of baitfish,) with proof of sale (receipt) acting as the exemption mechanism.
• In all waters exclusive of the Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers, and all related tributaries, personal collection/ trapping of bait is permitted, for use in the body of water where collection took place.
• Personal collection of bait from Great Lakes, Niagara Rivers and related tributaries is strictly prohibited.
Prohibition of Commercial Collection of Baitfish from known infected waters
• Prohibit personal collection of bait from the Great Lakes and its Tributaries, including Niagara Rivers.
• Only Commercial collection of bait permitted in Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers for use in Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers ONLY, collected and sold via licensed commercial baitfish dealers.
• Sale of bait to anglers must be accompanied by a certificate/ wire band, stating water of origin, date collected, license number of collector/ seller, and stating “FOR USE IN LAKE ERIE or LAKE ONTARIO or NIAGARA RIVER ONLY”.
• Notice of penalties for violating the law – like, failure to adhere to these laws may result in a $5,000 fine and/ or 30 days in jail.
• No personal limits apply to anglers who purchase bait from a licensed bait dealer.
• Signs/ public notice of prohibition of personal collection of bait from Great Lakes and Niagara Rivers and related tributaries must be posted in key and well known bait collection areas as to notify anglers that personal collection of bait from said waters is strictly prohibited.
Additional State Pathologists
• Recommend NYS pass additional legislation to hire two (2) new fisheries pathologists, to compliment the one (1) pathologist already on staff.
• The key to successfully containing any pathogen is early detection and action (something not done in this case, or past cases.)
Establish Angler Monitoring Program
• Legislation for funding of establishing and implementing an angler monitoring program must also be included in any new legislation.
• Anglers represent our best and first line of defense. A collection system of reported observations must accompany and work in conjunction with other containment efforts, as to speed detection of potential problems for faster action.
• Recommend a committee be created to develop the needed items for implementation of this “early warning system”.
• Educational materials and other vehicles geared to develop basic knowledge to anglers to act as proper stewards of the resources we enjoy.
• Monitoring to also include invasive species.
Further restrictions and enforcement of foreign freighter ballast and bilge waters
• Recommend speedy passage of legislation requiring all bilge and ballast of all vessels, commercial or otherwise, of foreign origin; be subject to a minimum concentration of chlorine, or other suitable chemical, in the waters of ballast and bilge.
• Testing of these waters for treatment in acceptable concentrations must occur prior to entering the Hudson River or Seaway, conducted at the time of entering the Port of New York.
• The Great Lakes are the world’s largest source of freshwater, warranting vigorous protection from potentially dangerous pathogens, as to protect public health (West Nile Virus). NYS can control this without Federal intervention.
I thank you for your time in reading these important comments, and I hope you will consider these with the seriousness I have considered them as well.
I therefore am formally opposed to the current Draft Proposal Regulations, 6NYCRR Parts 10-Sportfishing Regulations, 35-License, and 188-Fish Health Inspections.
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sometime i think it's just away to put the small bait shops out of bussince.and make if hard to get bait. to rise the prices :tipup:
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I like your straight forward attitude. However I disagree on the baitfish collection from the great lakes. Nobody should be able to do this. The trouble lies in the individuals that purchace them. It will be a great big regulatary mess and enforcement issues.
What is wrong with catching non infected minnows ?
also, I have started up vhs issues on my personal site : www.oneidalake.us/forum (http://www.oneidalake.us/forum)
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I like your straight forward attitude. However I disagree on the baitfish collection from the great lakes. Nobody should be able to do this. The trouble lies in the individuals that purchace them. It will be a great big regulatary mess and enforcement issues.
What is wrong with catching non infected minnows ?
also, I have started up vhs issues on my personal site : www.oneidalake.us/forum (http://www.oneidalake.us/forum)
ONe of the issues that has come up, and came up during the Jan 8 meeting, is that it is very difficult to determine what minnows are infected and what minnows are not. EVen out of waters which show VHS presence, not every fish is infected. Enforcement becomes the big issue, and in terms of Great Lakes bait, it cannot be easily enforced by allowing personal collection and no commercial collection, or even stating no collection personal or commercial.
The commercial bait dealers are known, as they are all licensed and regularly inspected by the DEC. This reduces the distribution of potentially infected minnows to a KNOWN distribution source. This also now makes the DEC and commercial bait collectors "partners" in enforcing the intentions of the law.
Lot testing is joke. Only AFS certified testing is cell culture. The methodology is to take 1/2 the sample and incubate and test after 1st 14 day period, then the remaining half and incubate another 14 days and test again. This assures 95% certainty of a clean lot. Problem is, most bait will not keep that long. Set aside the # of pathogens being tested. Its a good intention, but the results would be basically no bait.
Back to commercial collection in Great Lakes, with commercial licensed dealers out every day collecting bait, the chances of them seeing violations are higher than the DEC seeing it. They're not out there every day like commercial dealers are.
Ultimately, it is up to all of us to obey the existing laws. It is already on the books to not release baitfish into bodies of water that are not the origin. Nothing can prevent this from happening besides individual responsibility. Certainly, stiff penalties for getting caught may act as a deterrent. The DEC needs all the help we can give them, and by ceasing commercial bait dealers from collecting and selling bait from the Great Lakes, for use in Great Lakes only, really opens up the distribution avenues and could compound the problems. It makes sense to me, and this is why Dave and I crafted this part of the comment in this way.
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sometime i think it's just away to put the small bait shops out of bussince.and make if hard to get bait. to rise the prices :tipup:
Another useless comment. Why would DEC want to put small bait shops out of business? Also bait prices have not gone up.
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Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake??????????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish????
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Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake??????????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish????
Makes a lotta sense if you want guys to stop catching Perch! Sounds like a conspiracy?
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Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake??????????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish????
Out of towners cannot scoop up bait and bring it back home to sell. The Federal Order issued 10/24/06 by the USDA-APHIS division prohibits live fish transport throughout the Great Lakes states and coming in from Ontario. Got nothing to do with NYS. This one is a Federal order.
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Too many people are missing the real point here on this VHS subject. The real onus should fall on to the shoulders of the state DEC, to finally pay for its share of these senseless regulations, enforcement, and especially testing.
For whenever in human history along the Great Lakes, inland Lakes, Ponds, Bays, Rivers and streams, man has been innoculating these fishable waters with minnows of every size, species and numbers in many ways, either by loss during fishing, minnows accidently spilled overboard or thru an ice fishing hole, and by an even more direct method, direct placement into the water after a day of fishing.
Not mentioned as well is the more natural effect of the transport of minnows by migratory waterfowl, seagulls, eagles and the like.
Many of us, especially from Western New York State will remember ( now give this some thought here!), the DEC prohibition of using minnows( baitfish) dead or alive, or even having such bait near these waters, even if dead/salted! This always struck me hard at the time, and it took many years to finally reason things out seeing these signs, for example at Harwood Lake along RT 98 and others.
Reasoning time is here and now, and all the knee jerk solutions will not help this matter at all!It comes down to the simple fact being that there is a health problem with Emerald Shiners as a species, and this condition has existed for a very long time, and nothing was ever done about it when 1st observed and studied, even though it was a well known disease of certain species of the European Community.
Any VHS relationship to the Round Gobys presence in our Great Lakes, and the Ruffe,and Zebra Mussels other European hitchhikers has not been mentioned nor studied as far as I know! Maybe it is known by Govt " Thinkers", but won't be released for another 10 years, as this VHS issue has been.
Again, the DEC joined ranks with several other Great Lakes States, and decided to get involved, along with the Provience of Ontrario. From what I hear the USDA effort came about when "organized" commercial fish farmers heard about this and wanted to protect their interests, then got lawyers and USDA ( the farmers friend ) involved. This Fed agency has direct powers to curtail any activity with in a multi- state jurisdiction., by issue of Emergency Proclamation!
My main point being, that the state DEC has far surpassed other states,and the Provience of Ontario in its regulatory regulations on this issue, and has proposed costly testing/ release procedures for bait fish and as usual, has passed the costs directly on the consumer and bait operator. It is time now for some positive DEC action, they have let the horse out of the barn far in advance on this issue. The DEC can save face by going the extra mile here for its sportsmen by taking an initiative to conduct surveys of all fishable waters in New York State, sample all species present and certify the status of VHS Positive or VHS Negative; then prohibit the possession of bait fish dead or alive on these areas that are not infected to date, posting accordingly! Then maybe discussing the use of " Certified VHS Free Minnows " on waters not yet infected.
I understand certain testing efforts are underway as we speak, NYSDEC has enough manpower to collect and labs to test. Outsourcing is available as an option. Federal funds can be obtained easily for this venture. We are blessed with stafff and students at Cornell U who specialize in these areas! Lets get going, and in the right direction.
In Western New York State we have Chautauqua Lake, it shouild be a model for all other lakes to be tested. Most all fish on the short list are present, including a vast number of Emerald Shiners; and on the same thought, how did Emerald Shiners get their start there anyways??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
bear_lake Bob
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Hey cray fish, iv been around a bit on myfishfinder<ice shanty a.k.a bbfishing fool.iv been to your posted sites.What sense does it make to stop the locals from netting emeralds and then using them the same day in the same lake??????????I fish Dunkirk ny, lake erie.theres only one bait shop that sells minnows in town they charge way to much<arnt open till later in the a.m,and buy july they run out of emeralds and get fat heads in>i welcome you to go out with us and try using any other minnow other than a emerald shinner and you wil see.lake erie perch want emeralds,not to say you wont get any to bite other min.but you will only end up with a very very small % of what you woudve caught on emeralds.Iv driven to silver crk for bait once b4 and by the time we got to grounds 90%were belly up.And yes i had them airated in a giant coolr>aug.heats to much.Plus it cost a extra 6$ in gas.I guess what im saying if they outlaw us from netting our own min.out of lake erie, then using them in lake erie<that will totally ruin one of the lakes best fisheries for many many fisherman.[lake erie yellow perch]up to 16$a pound to buy] .I think that makes no sense at all.I personally dont have a problem with outa town bait dealers coming to our harbors to net bait and resell it .but over the years the bait guys take a ton of heat from the oldtimers and some of the locals.Fights have almost broken out.Outlaw us from catching or own bait,but allow some outa towner to come in and net um thers gona be major problems>.How unfair to us locals.ONCE AGAIN< CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT SENSE IT MAKES TO STOP US FROM NETTING OUR OWN BAIT OUTA LAKE ERIE AND THEN USING IT IN LAKE ERIE THE SAME DAY OUT OF THE SAME HARBOR?I WELCOME ANY LOGICAL RESPONSE>I WILL BE POSTING what the guys in ohio had to say aboat ther giant kill off of yellow perch<i will use your list bob to post in those areas[thankyou] so to here what the guys from these areas have to say aboat how its effected their areas.I read somwere a bait dealer spent $150,000 on a truck to move bait.It must be BIG buess to pay off $150,000 truck.this vhs has been in lake erie for someyears?were all the dead fish????
I do not see anything wrong with using bait in the same lake it only makes sense. However its the one or two people that do what they want with them. Right now, there are people stashing minnows in ponds. Those ponds will never be good again until completly drained and sterilized.
Then theres the few who go where they want with them. It takes once and a whole lake is infected. Can anyone justify that ? Sure he cought some fish, but now we have another infected lake... Is it worth it ?
I'm positive that there is somewheres in the range of two dozen or less spots where emeralds can be cought easily along the niagra, lake erie and ontario, inc the st.lawarnce. ( sure there are some not so good spots) The state merely would have to pass the law so nobody can take minnows there, post signs, and that's it.
The federal government stopped the transport of live fish from the great lakes region without certs. They can just as easily stop the taking of baitfish altogether from the waters of the great lakes, i'm sure.
If theres a sign saying theres a $10,000 fine for taking baitfish posted by APHIS/USDA, then the bad guys are going to think twice. Maybe there's a way of using it in the same waters, but how can it be enforced ?
VHS is a "emerging" disease. That means its spreading.Lets do what we can to follow the rules.
I'm so glad we can openly talk about this. Thank you again, ice shanty.
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Too many people are missing the real point here on this VHS subject. The real onus should fall on to the shoulders of the state DEC, to finally pay for its share of these senseless regulations, enforcement, and especially testing.
For whenever in human history along the Great Lakes, inland Lakes, Ponds, Bays, Rivers................ .
You are still missing the point, New York State should not and will not pay for VHS testing, period. The funds are not there, last I knew they were looking for ways to make up for a $10 million shortage on the conservation fund. One idea they were looking into is making people display their fishing licenses(harder to fish without paying for one), among others. Bait is a commodity, if the costs to procure bait go up, these are passed on to the consumer, welcome to the United States and our market economy. When my car needs to be inspected each year, I pay for it, not NY State.
You believe there has been a health issue(VHS?) in emerald shiners for a long time, and nothing was done about it. The facts are:
"What is the history of VHS?
VHS was first discovered in the mid 20th Century in Europe where it was originally a significant and costly disease of cultured rainbow trout. Since its initial discovery in Europe, four strains of the VHS virus have been identified, including both freshwater and marine strains. In 1988, VHS was reported in spawning salmon in the Pacific Northwest and was determined to be a new strain of the virus (Type IV) that appears to be a North American strain. It is widespread in the Pacific herring and Pacific cod populations in the Pacific Northwest and has also been found in Atlantic herring and Greenland halibut in the Atlantic Ocean.
In 2005, a very large die-off of freshwater drum in Lake Ontario and a muskellunge kill in Lake St. Clair were linked to VHS, representing the first documentation of the disease in freshwater in the western hemisphere. A subsequent test of an archived muskellunge collected from Lake St. Clair in 2003 tested positive for the virus, indicating that the virus was present, but undetected in the Great Lakes system for at least two years. The drum and muskellunge virus isolates were determined to be different than those from infected fish from other regions and were categorized as a unique strain of the virus (Type IVb).
In 2006, additional fish kills in Lake Erie, Lake Ontario, the St. Lawrence River and Conesus Lake were linked to VHS. Species involved in fish kills linked to VHS included muskellunge, smallmouth bass, northern pike, freshwater drum, gizzard shad, yellow perch, black crappie, bluegill, rock bass, white bass, redhorse sucker, round goby, burbot and walleye. Other freshwater fish species that have tested positive for VHS are bluntnose minnows and emerald shiners." (from DEC website)
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Too many people are missing the real point here on this VHS subject. The real onus should fall on to the shoulders of the state DEC, to finally pay for its share of these senseless regulations, enforcement, and especially testing.
For whenever in human history along the Great Lakes, inland Lakes, Ponds, Bays, Rivers and streams, man has been innoculating these fishable waters with minnows of every size, species and numbers in many ways, either by loss during fishing, minnows accidently spilled overboard or thru an ice fishing hole, and by an even more direct method, direct placement into the water after a day of fishing.
Not mentioned as well is the more natural effect of the transport of minnows by migratory waterfowl, seagulls, eagles and the like.
Many of us, especially from Western New York State will remember ( now give this some thought here!), the DEC prohibition of using minnows( baitfish) dead or alive, or even having such bait near these waters, even if dead/salted! This always struck me hard at the time, and it took many years to finally reason things out seeing these signs, for example at Harwood Lake along RT 98 and others.
Reasoning time is here and now, and all the knee jerk solutions will not help this matter at all!It comes down to the simple fact being that there is a health problem with Emerald Shiners as a species, and this condition has existed for a very long time, and nothing was ever done about it when 1st observed and studied, even though it was a well known disease of certain species of the European Community.
Any VHS relationship to the Round Gobys presence in our Great Lakes, and the Ruffe,and Zebra Mussels other European hitchhikers has not been mentioned nor studied as far as I know! Maybe it is known by Govt " Thinkers", but won't be released for another 10 years, as this VHS issue has been.
Again, the DEC joined ranks with several other Great Lakes States, and decided to get involved, along with the Provience of Ontrario. From what I hear the USDA effort came about when "organized" commercial fish farmers heard about this and wanted to protect their interests, then got lawyers and USDA ( the farmers friend ) involved. This Fed agency has direct powers to curtail any activity with in a multi- state jurisdiction., by issue of Emergency Proclamation!
My main point being, that the state DEC has far surpassed other states,and the Provience of Ontario in its regulatory regulations on this issue, and has proposed costly testing/ release procedures for bait fish and as usual, has passed the costs directly on the consumer and bait operator. It is time now for some positive DEC action, they have let the horse out of the barn far in advance on this issue. The DEC can save face by going the extra mile here for its sportsmen by taking an initiative to conduct surveys of all fishable waters in New York State, sample all species present and certify the status of VHS Positive or VHS Negative; then prohibit the possession of bait fish dead or alive on these areas that are not infected to date, posting accordingly! Then maybe discussing the use of " Certified VHS Free Minnows " on waters not yet infected.
I understand certain testing efforts are underway as we speak, NYSDEC has enough manpower to collect and labs to test. Outsourcing is available as an option. Federal funds can be obtained easily for this venture. We are blessed with stafff and students at Cornell U who specialize in these areas! Lets get going, and in the right direction.
In Western New York State we have Chautauqua Lake, it shouild be a model for all other lakes to be tested. Most all fish on the short list are present, including a vast number of Emerald Shiners; and on the same thought, how did Emerald Shiners get their start there anyways??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
bear_lake Bob
Interesting, well thought out post.
A few points to correct, however:
1 - The DEC does NOT have the resources (manpower and money) to test every fishable PUBLIC water in NYS. I have to toss out private waters for the sake of discussion. This is a reality. In order to test, collection of specimens must occur, which takes time. The tests themselves, only certified test is cell culture tests (certified by American Fisheries Society and World Org on Plant and Animal Health), which, using the standard certified methodology of testing, requires 2, 14-day incubation periods (28 day cum.) for results to be known. Bear in mind that the DEC CANNOT certify a lake or stream, et al, VHS free based on clean test results. The only designation they can make is "tested VHS-". Not the same thing as VHS "Free". In light of these physical constraints/ conditions, the DEC has prioritized their testing efforts to first focus on their brood waters for their hatcheries, as fisheries management activity has been identified as the number 1 pathway to VHS spread.
2 - NYS DEC has ONE (1) certified pathologist on staff to conduct the testing. ONE! They currently already have in place a contract with Cornell University, which has 4 pathologists to help in the tesing, however, Cornell will NOT certify the results - they don't want the liability and I don't blame them. Cornell is primarily working on testing hatcheries, both DEC and private commercial fish farms. The DEC is paying for the cost of this testing, but not paying for testing of baitfish commercially harvested from a lake, rather than raised in an aquaculture, contained environment.
3 - The contract in place with Cornell is a 1 year contract. They will review at the end of the year contract to see if renewals are warranted.
4 - The pathway of waterfowl, seagulls, etc. is known to be a problem if the bird drops an infected fish. Expelling their digested bowels of a bird eating an infected fish is not a concern. The birds digestive tract kills the virus. It is not the same condition as Whirling Disease and the tubefix worm.
5 - In terms of Chautauqua Lake, this body of water (being a brood lake) has been tested and thus far is showing VHS-. The exception is muskellunge, as they have not yet tested musky.
For more information on this, please email me @ [email protected]. I will send onto you the Region 9 ppt presentation(in pdf format) which was presented at the Region 9 meeting on Jan 8, 2007 at Woodlawn Beach. I also have meeting notes which are very detailed.
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Just as an FYI.
DEC's containment plan is 3-part
1 - Change DEC field operations to minimize unintentional spread of VHS through their normal field work, like electroshock surveys, lamprey trap monitoring, etc. New SOPs are being crafted and implemented to make certain all gear and equipment is properly cleaned and disinfected prior to use in thenext body of water
2 - DEC Hatchery Operations shall be continually monitored, as well as the wild broodstock waters. In other words, testing and monitoring of all hatcheries, DEC and private hatcheries that supply fish to NYS DEC stocking efforts. Waters being tested for VHS presence include:
Chautauqua, Oneida, Lake Ontario, Cayuga, Raquette Lake and Little Clear Pond
They have also suspended all fish transfers from the Salmon River Hatchery to other bodies of water/ other hatcheries, meaning all trout and salmon reared at the Salmon River Hatchery shall only released/ stocked into Lake Ontario ONLY!!!
3 - Emergency regulations, which are proposed to become permanent as is.
These address the 3 pathways representing greatest risk of spread, which are
DEC Field Work
DEC Fisheries Management Work
Individual's use of live fish (bait, private stocking, etc)
Just so everyone knows...
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Let's say an angler dumps an infected bucket of minnows into a lake, a "clean" lake. From that point in time, how long would it take for VHS to become evident in that lake, or should I say, test positve for VHS?
For me, Conesus Lake is most disturbing right now, being the only secluded lake on the list. Makes you wonder how many others are out there, and have not tested positive, or showed signs of a problem yet. Conesus gets a ton of traffic in and out of other lakes.
What about Cayuga? That lake has had major fish kills the last couple years, but it does not seem to be VHS related?
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How do they know if VHS is not already present in all our lakes?
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King Fisher1 your right how do they know.I think testing needs to be done in all bodys of water,Throughout .I recall telling the senior aquatic biologist MR C.[retired]back in 1980s aboat fish i seen while wading and casting for bass off barcalonia[lake erie]that iv never seen before.Some years later we heard of the gobie and how it was posably gona poison fish?perch populations are higher know than ever[gobies?]dont know,but their bellies are always full.Than theres the zebra muscles and all the problems they were gona cause??? And no RL WAGNER i understand fishermen wana stop this or at least control it,and its not a conspiracy.I just dont wana see more senseless n.y state BS.If there were no law breakers, laws restricting bait collection would seem somewhat sensable.Its inevitable its gona spread laws or not.Some of Our hospitals are being threatend to be closed in N.Y.Familys who have children in N.Y that are disabled,and the parents are capable to work but chose not to, own their own homes ,drive brand new cars.Welome to the U>S>A and to new york.And now their gona test minnows????Maybe N.Y could us the empty hospitals to test minnows.
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Let's say an angler dumps an infected bucket of minnows into a lake, a "clean" lake. From that point in time, how long would it take for VHS to become evident in that lake, or should I say, test positve for VHS?
For me, Conesus Lake is most disturbing right now, being the only secluded lake on the list. Makes you wonder how many others are out there, and have not tested positive, or showed signs of a problem yet. Conesus gets a ton of traffic in and out of other lakes.
What about Cayuga? That lake has had major fish kills the last couple years, but it does not seem to be VHS related?
Cayuga Lake, as of right now, has tested VHS-. Doesn't mean it is free of VHS, but, considering this is a broodstock lake, it will be monitored closely. It is not 100% certain how long the incubation period is before VHS begins showing symptoms, at least not exactly. Generally, other strains have shown a week to 10 days of incubation, then the pathogen starts its hemorrhagic symptoms.
The trouble with Type IV B is it is a new strain, and its characteristics are different enough from the other known VHS strains that it makes it difficult to determine its viability outside the host and whether hosts which survive the pathogen's affects can continue to be carriers of the disease while not affected by it. Methinks the latter may be true.
Several articles from Michigan state the virus is somewhat of a "weenie", in that is is easily killed and doesn't survive long outside the host. What is actually defined as "long" was unknown. A few days, a week, a few minutes, hours? We just do not know.
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How do they know if VHS is not already present in all our lakes?
They don't. That's the biggest point of contention, and the primary reason the Erie County Federation is formally opposed to the VHS draft proposal regs. We are looking at these actions as akin to closing the barn door after the horses have left.
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What part of the regs do you oppose ?, and I would rather think in terms of the future than what transpired already. Its the protection of waters not infected or not known to be infected that efforts should be drawn to.
I still say the single biggest mistake that dec made is the allowance of taking of infected baifish by the general public. This opens up the doorway to the uncontrollable spread of this virus. Even if its temporary for a couple of years, then at least there's a better understanding of what's really going on.
It's take time and understanding what's really happening. Sacrifices made now can only make things better in the future.
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What part of the regs do you oppose ?, and I would rather think in terms of the future than what transpired already. Its the protection of waters not infected or not known to be infected that efforts should be drawn to.
I still say the single biggest mistake that dec made is the allowance of taking of infected baifish by the general public. This opens up the doorway to the uncontrollable spread of this virus. Even if its temporary for a couple of years, then at least there's a better understanding of what's really going on.
It's take time and understanding what's really happening. Sacrifices made now can only make things better in the future.
But there's the entire conundrum. We don't know whether bait is infected or not. Testing of waters only identifies whether the virus is showing up, not whether it is present in the lake. Not every fish will get ill or infected. Those that do either die or survive and could become potential carriers. The biggest problem is that it was present and known about in Lake Ontario since 2005, and tested as present in Lake Erie and the Upper Niagara River in August 2006, yet bait was still collected and used up until November 21, 2006. This is definitely a case of the closing the barn door after the horse left the barn.
And let's also realize that these minnows, which could have been infected and used in many, many waters in NYS, also get shipped to other states, too, and through inaction, probably due to lack of urgency because of no public health threat, we have what we have now.
Further, despite all the laws we can pass to now react post-script, if you will, NONE of these regulations apply to the Native Americans. In other words, no restrictions apply to the Senecas, and considering one of their reservations is located in Irving, right on Lake Erie and Cattaraugus Creek, a giant hole remains, and this hole cannot be closed. So, in response, anglers get to bear the brunt, while doing nothing to address the cause of infiltration, the ballast from foreign freighters entering the Great Lakes Chain through the SLS. Does it make sense in that light?
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And if that wasn't bad enough..... It gets worse. Spitzer announced his monination today for the new DEC commissioner, as follows:
GOVERNOR ELIOT SPITZER AND LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR DAVID PATERSON ANNOUNCE
ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS
Governor Eliot Spitzer and Lieutenant Governor David Paterson today
announced nominations for two key senior administration positions.
Alexander B. "Pete" Grannis is being nominated to serve as Commissioner of
the Department of Environmental Conservation. Mr. Grannis was first elected
to the Assembly in 1974 and represents the Upper East Side of Manhattan and
Roosevelt Island. He currently serves as legislator, serving as Chair of the
Assembly Insurance Committee and as a member of the Assembly Ways and Means
Committee.
Mr. Grannis has championed environmental issues throughout his tenure in the
legislature. He was a leader in fighting for the passage of SEQRA, the
original bottle bill, and the clean-up and revitalization of the state's
brownfields. Mr. Grannis has also played a key role in the enactment of a
wide range of environmental legislation, including measures related to acid
rain, clean air and water, fluorocarbons and recycling. He chaired the
Assembly's first Subcommittee on Toxic Wastes, sponsored legislation
ensuring a worker's right to know about hazardous materials in the work
place and has worked to regulate the transport, storage and disposal of
toxic wastes. Mr. Grannis authored the state's rapid transit noise code and
has been at the forefront of the fight to have the MTA convert its polluting
diesel bus fleet to clean fuels.
A nationally recognized leader in the fight to curb the health hazards
posed by smoking, Mr. Grannis authored New York's 1989 Clean Indoor Air Act
(CIAA) and amendments adopted in 2003 to protect all working men and women
from deadly secondhand smoke. His legislative efforts to curb smoking,
including the historic CIAA and the Adolescent Tobacco Use Prevention Act
have received global recongnition. Mr. Grannis*s work has been hailed by
numerous public health organizations including the American Cancer Society
and the New York State Association of County Health Officials.
Mr. Grannis is a three-time winner of the Legislator of the Year award from
the Environmental Planning Lobby and was accorded similar honors by the
Audubon Society, the Environmental Action Coalition and Environmental
Advocates. He also received the American Society for the Prevention of
Cruelty to Animals Public Service Award in recognition of his efforts in
promoting the humane treatment of animals.
Mr. Grannis lives with his family in New York City. He is a graduate of
Rutgers University and the University of Virginia Law School. Prior to
entering the Assembly, Mr. Grannis practiced law in New York City and served
as Compliance Counsel for the New York State Department of Environmental
Conservation.
Judith Enck will be appointed as Deputy Secretary for the Environment. For
the past eight years, Ms. Enck has served as a policy advisor to Attorney
General Eliot Spitzer. Prior to joining the Attorney General*s office, she
was a Senior Environmental Associate with the New York Public Interest
Research Group (NYPIRG). She has also served as the Executive Director of
the Environmental Advocates of New York, a non-profit government watchdog
organization dedicated to enforcing laws that protect natural resources and
safeguards public health. Ms. Enck received her B.A. from the College of
St. Rose.
Remember what I said about the politics of this VHS containment plan, and the push in, what I consider, HASTE?
Read the above and weep.
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National News now folks...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,246980,00.html
looks like VHS has been confirmed now to be present in Lake Huron!
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I agree the horse has left the building and your going to find it everywhere its to late,people have been using these minnows everywhere for years. :tipup:
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Hopefully it won't end in a ban on using live baitfish. Some states already prohibit any live baitfish, I hope New York is not next in line.
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I agree the horse has left the building and your going to find it everywhere its to late,people have been using these minnows everywhere for years. :tipup:
Your pessimism on this matter is quite interesting, I'm glad everyone doesn't share your views. That type of attitude will only help to spread VHS further.
Additionally, I believe this is the first time the new strain of VHS has been seen in any salmonids; the article says they found it in king salmon in Huron.
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Your pessimism on this matter is quite interesting, I'm glad everyone doesn't share your views. That type of attitude will only help to spread VHS further.
Additionally, I believe this is the first time the new strain of VHS has been seen in any salmonids; the article says they found it in king salmon in Huron.
I didnt meen it in a bad way.I meant they (DEC)just like always waited to long before they did anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Let me guess you must be a bait dealer???????? :tipup: You posted they found vhs in st.clair in 2003 and if it was first found in quinte bay in 2005 that means it was alreadty in huron because the fish samples were taken from 2005 also,and you also posted "THAT ITS LONG OVER DO" bait fish regulations so you your self think the horse has left the building :tipup:
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I think the fact remains that nobody knows how far this disease has spread in New York, not even the DEC, without testing nearly every fish in every body of water. If I understand correctly, testing could show VHS negative at one location within a lake, but could be successfully "breeding" at another location.
I agree some proper precautions should be taken, but then again, there are still WAY too many people out there that don't even know this exists, or simply don't care. This sounds like it is truly a case of "one can spoil it for the rest of us" type situation. 99.9% of us can be doing the right thing, and the .1% come along and infect things anyway, knowingly or unknowingly.
Again, Conesus Lake is the disturbing thing to me. We all can see how natural progression of a disease could travel with in the Great Lakes system, but Conesus is not connected. How did it get there? Bait releasing, fish stocking or did it come in in someone bilge/livewell water?? Any one of those could have been repeated on other waters dozens and dozens of times.
I think I am not alone in saying I like doing the right thing, but sometimes it is hard to put a lot of extra effort into something knowing that people are very easily NOT doing the right thing. I'm not sure if that came out clear, but I think you know what I mean.
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I think I am not alone in saying I like doing the right thing, but sometimes it is hard to put a lot of extra effort into something knowing that people are very easily NOT doing the right thing. I'm not sure if that came out clear, but I think you know what I mean.
loud and clear. That's what I was thinking wny.. we bust our asses to find the certified bait (see posts on this site), follow the rules to a T. etc. and it seems as though the people responsible for instituting these rules don't (or can't) enforce them! this is sorta hypocritical (and another word there I can't think of..) if you read my post VHS: who's been checked, it appears DEC is doing nothing on the enforcement end. this baffles me.. this whole VHS deal is baffling.. maybe the DEC feels the same and know they have dropped the ball on the issue. :-\ :-\
gairz
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There is a can of worms here guys. In order to in-force the law it would take (SO) many goverment inspectors, we don't have them on the payroll now and we aren't getting them. The best thing I - You - and everyone can do is never throw your left over bait in the the water. No one wants to start paying 5 to 10 times more for what they pay for bait now. No one wants to see disease spread to other lakes/ponds or fish. It's not a easy thing to control. More work needs to be done to control what comes into the great lakes from shipping. :'( That's where it all comes from.
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I think the fact remains that nobody knows how far this disease has spread in New York, not even the DEC, without testing nearly every fish in every body of water. If I understand correctly, testing could show VHS negative at one location within a lake, but could be successfully "breeding" at another location.
I agree some proper precautions should be taken, but then again, there are still WAY too many people out there that don't even know this exists, or simply don't care. This sounds like it is truly a case of "one can spoil it for the rest of us" type situation. 99.9% of us can be doing the right thing, and the .1% come along and infect things anyway, knowingly or unknowingly.
Again, Conesus Lake is the disturbing thing to me. We all can see how natural progression of a disease could travel with in the Great Lakes system, but Conesus is not connected. How did it get there? Bait releasing, fish stocking or did it come in in someone bilge/livewell water?? Any one of those could have been repeated on other waters dozens and dozens of times.
I think I am not alone in saying I like doing the right thing, but sometimes it is hard to put a lot of extra effort into something knowing that people are very easily NOT doing the right thing. I'm not sure if that came out clear, but I think you know what I mean.
Yep, or it could have come in through DEC fisheries activities, electroshock surveys, whatever. That is another scary part about this conundrum, WE DON'T KNOW CHIT!
What we do know is that this pathogen, along with a laundry list of others, is not native to US waters. We know VHS was first noticed on our coasts in the late 1990's. We do know that it was present in this current strain in 2003 in Lake St Clair, we do know that in 2005 Lake Ontario showed positive presence as well. We do know, like along with Koi Herpes Virus, Whirling Disease and many others, NOTHING WAS DONE, primarily due to no public health threat, and a severe shortage of resources at the DEC (one pathologist!!!! start there).
This pathogen, epizootic outbreak, is also now a political bone of contention. Considering the current changes at the Governor's mansion in November, the DEC made the collective decision to do something (albeit, and unfortunately, largely symbolic, screwing anglers and residents of NY in the process). Another part of that conundrum. All the while, NYS has not addressed the root of the issue, and this one isn't even under DEC control! It falls under the NYSDOT!!!!
However, considering who has just been appointed head of the DEC, Pete Grannis, Mr Anti himself (ASPCA and HSUS LOVE him, nuff said), some very bad winds are blowing, and the winds could end up biting sportsmen in NYS far harder than VHS can hurt the fisheries.
Ultimately, until we address the root, foreign vessels and ballast water, we will continue down this path. If any of you know Tom Marks, director for Great Lakes Sport Fishing Council, ask him. And on the heels of VHS, and while we are fretting over what to do, another invasive species has been identified in Lake Ontario, an invasive freshwater shrimp, which could devastate the lowest part of the food chain, effectively cutting screwing up baitfish on up. I would have thought the discovery of West Nile Virus would have been the catalyst to protect our waters. After all, that does present a public health threat. That damned pathogen is across the entire lower 48 now.
The larger issue is what it is, and all the regs we put in place to stop fishermen from effectively fishing, out of fear of contaminating another water, or introducing a new organism, does nothing but symbolically delude ourselves into thinking we're doing something, while the back door remains wide open for further problems (a new invasive species of some sort is discovered in the Great Lakes Chain EVERY 8 MONTHS!!!!!)
FUBAR
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I'm afraid to say, but the crossing of VHS into Lake Huron will change everything. It's no longer going to be the great lakes effected, but it will be a national problem, as there is no land barrier to lake michigan, then on to the mississippi via the canal system. The federal government is not done yet...
In the lines of natural recourses in the united states, wild cought baitfish lands last. We are a minority here compared to the great aquacultural farms of the south and midwest. Its the food industry involved. I can't believe that the even fewer people that are catching thier own bait from infected waters would even mind JUST WAITING a year or two to see what transpires with this. Theres actually people out there that are still spreading this stuff around , knowing what's happening.
I wish everyone would think in the terms of today and tomorrow. Nevermind yesterday. If it's too late for a watershed, let's hope it runs its course. If its not infected yet, let's do everything we possibly can to stop it.
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I didnt meen it in a bad way.I meant they (DEC)just like always waited to long before they did anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Let me guess you must be a bait dealer???????? :tipup: You posted they found vhs in st.clair in 2003 and if it was first found in quinte bay in 2005 that means it was alreadty in huron because the fish samples were taken from 2005 also,and you also posted "THAT ITS LONG OVER DO" bait fish regulations so you your self think the horse has left the building :tipup:
I just didn't like the idea of people believing that VHS is already "everywhere", when there is no evidence to support that claim. Such inferences can lead to people choosing not to follow the new regulations.
You need to check your facts on the discovery of this new strain of VHS. It was not detected until 2005 anywhere, and it was not detected in NY until May 2006. VHS was confirmed in June 2006, and new regulations were enacted in Nov 2006. Yet you claim DEC dragged their feet, and waited too long before they did anything? New York has gone further than anyone to so the spread of VHS, yet people still criticize, when they should be commended.
The fact of the matter is that DEC came up with an effective plan to try to prevent the spread of a potentially devastating disease(to fish), which still allows fisherman to use live bait. Believe me when I tell you, there is a real possibility that all baitfish use will be outlawed. We sportsman have been given our chance, we all need to follow through and obey the new regs, whether we like them or not. Either that or get used to artificials, this is no joke, and neither is VHS.
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I thought I read in the report about the lake Huron sample that it was from specimens taken in 2003 from a die off and because they were so decomposed and a good example of VHS wasn't available that it was also thought that another disease may be at fault, botulism I believe. After the recent finding they went back to the frozen 2003 sample and confirmed its presence,that's the way I believe it went. DEC surveys and electro shocking do not contribute in any way to the spreading of any of the known viruses infact just the opposite. They are the tools used to take the samples and info needed to detect any problems, health and presence of species. All the vessels used are contaminant free, they do not transport bilge or livewell water from body to body. I have been involved in these activities and precautions are always part of any survey I was a part of especially using an electro-shocker.
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You need to check your facts on the discovery of this new strain of VHS. It was not detected until 2005 anywhere, and it was not detected in NY until May 2006. VHS was confirmed in June 2006, and new regulations were enacted in Nov 2006. Yet you claim DEC dragged their feet, and waited too long before they did anything? New York has gone further than anyone to so the spread of VHS, yet people still criticize, when they should be commended.
I thought I read in the report about the lake Huron sample that it was from specimens taken in 2003 from a die off and because they were so decomposed and a good example of VHS wasn't available that it was also thought that another disease may be at fault, botulism I believe. After the recent finding they went back to the frozen 2003 sample and confirmed its presence,that's the way I believe it went.
doctari states, "We know VHS was first noticed on our coasts in the late 1990's"??
not 2005 or 2003.. they've (whomever) have known about this for a while.. If Mr. tari's facts are straight. ;)
gairz
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The scientific data does not support that claim. Discoveries like that are what scientists live for, that isn't something they would hide. For what reason?
The date VHS was discovered is irrelevant at this point, we need to prevent its further spread. ;)
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The Hudson River (at Least down here in Greene County) is clear of Vhs, So we should have no problem with herring around here come spring. Good Luck to All and Happy Drilling.
Erock187us
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I just didn't like the idea of people believing that VHS is already "everywhere", when there is no evidence to support that claim. Such inferences can lead to people choosing not to follow the new regulations.
You need to check your facts on the discovery of this new strain of VHS. It was not detected until 2005 anywhere, and it was not detected in NY until May 2006. VHS was confirmed in June 2006, and new regulations were enacted in Nov 2006. Yet you claim DEC dragged their feet, and waited too long before they did anything? New York has gone further than anyone to so the spread of VHS, yet people still criticize, when they should be commended.
The fact of the matter is that DEC came up with an effective plan to try to prevent the spread of a potentially devastating disease(to fish), which still allows fisherman to use live bait. Believe me when I tell you, there is a real possibility that all baitfish use will be outlawed. We sportsman have been given our chance, we all need to follow through and obey the new regs, whether we like them or not. Either that or get used to artificials, this is no joke, and neither is VHS.
I have gotten all my facts from you and crayfish so you better go back and check your posts again! you stated "vhs was found in 2003 in st.clair" NEW YORK DEC should have then put up emergency regs not now!!!!! from your posts changing here and there ("discovery dates are irrelavant now")i can tell you have no clue on VHS like most of us,you just want everyone to follow the rules!!! If there is regs everyone here will follow the rules, BUT Like doctari said the horse has left the building!!!
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Wholly twistorama ! First of all, Lake St.clair is not even in New York. How would NY start a regulation about something newly discovered in another state and I'm positive it took awhile to even figure it out.
So what you are saying its too late for all the watersheds in the state ?
We should'nt follow the rules ?
I'm asking, because I kinda read it that way.
Nobody has all the answers, and the DEC made some good decisions, some bad decisions. Either way , I think we should follow the rules.
No clue ? when's the last time you e-mailed the state's patholigest, or talked to your region's head fishery guy on the phone, or his superiors ? Did you go to the DEC meetings ? Or even took the time to google VHS ? Who is APHIS ?
I would have never thought sardines would even have anything to do with it, but it does. Just google :
sardines vhs
Its the attitude of one or two fishermen that think its too late that will lead to the end of using baifish in New York.
How's this scene grab ya ? -- Hypothetically, of course-- The DEC checks a bucket of minnows on a isolated lake. The guys have way too many. The minnows then are confiscated, then tested not only for VHS, but genetic make up. They turn out to be infected and from the niagra river.
What would you expect the DEC to do at that time ?
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Yep, or it could have come in through DEC fisheries activities, electroshock surveys, whatever. That is another scary part about this conundrum, WE DON'T KNOW CHIT!
What we do know is that this pathogen, along with a laundry list of others, is not native to US waters. We know VHS was first noticed on our coasts in the late 1990's. We do know that it was present in this current strain in 2003 in Lake St Clair, we do know that in 2005 Lake Ontario showed positive presence as well. We do know, like along with Koi Herpes Virus, Whirling Disease and many others, NOTHING WAS DONE, primarily due to no public health threat, and a severe shortage of resources at the DEC (one pathologist!!!! start there).
Doctari:
I mentioned before how necessary the creation of a reference pannel of frozen Great Lakes Fishes is an immediate need , and can now more so be established as an emergency necessity to avoid confusion amongst the ranks of those paid thinkers in the DEC and other states conservation departments. Yearly samples of all Great Lakes Aqua life forms, as well as all the Great Lakes fishes have to be collected from various area of the Great Lakes, and set aside, frozen forever so that they can be studied to determine what date in time any given condition starts to show up. Wouldn't such a pannel if available now, perhaps for the last 10 years of review, more closely pin down the start of this VHS event. Don't have the money, well get it, and get it quickly
I am not a fisheries expert, and will never profess to be so, however this is such a no brainer that it is scary, and makes me feel uncomfortable with the fisheries departments as a whole. Wasn't long ago a multi Great Lakes basin search was undertaken, a lot of noise made about the Blue Pike, as not one regulatory agency had any frozen samples of this species, nor less any DNA material from one. The fisheries of the Great Lakes, the quality of the drinking water are paramount issues, and every step should be taken to monitor them.What really scares me is the fact that Federal money is available to the states right now to hire the necessary people to study, monitor, and take action on this issue. The same old, same old, WE DON'T HAVE ANY FUNDING will no longer be accepted, and we should not buy into this, because the states have taken the time to make this a " FEDERAL CASE" and with it from past history comes the free flow of of Federal money!This reference pannel is what the County Federation Of Sportsmens Clubs and what not ,should be promoting, because it is legitimate, long term, and necessay as evidenced by the facts today!
Bear_Lake_Bob :tipup:
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Why don't they eliminate the new regulations on the lakes where VHS has already been found? It makes no sense to limit the use of bait on a lake where the virus is already present. I don't see how using Lake Erie minnows on Conesus could hurt, since both lakes are already infected. They should concentrate on the lakes that do not have the virus. They could post a list of infected lakes and exclude them from the new regs.
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Sorry if I didn't write clearly, I know that they've known about VHS since the 90's, but Huron has just been confirmed. I don't think they were trying to hide it, they just didn't have a sample of this VHS strain in 2003 when they collected fish from a die off (meaning the DNR) they had in Huron. Now that they had a good example of this strain we are discussing, they could confirm its presence in Huron as far back as 2003. Good, I say, at a boy. They needed to do that and continue to confirm or deny the presence of this strain in the Great lakes waters and in the NE in general to contain the spread. Yes that is only a part of what needs to be done by government agencies, we as sportsmen have a part also like Crayfish and the Capt. have stated. There are probably not as many conspiracies going on as people think. With limited funds and resources(because of politicians and bureaucracy) its no wonder that it takes time on making the right decisions on how to manage the virus, the fish, the bodies of water affected, the baitfish and the sportsmen who this ultimately impacts along with the aquaculture and baitdealers industry who are trying to do the right thing and remain in business. A lot to organize, manage and make the right decision on here. I don't envy the NYSDEC and their situation on this. They do not, however, I believe ever want to take the privilege of fishing in NY away from the residents. They have a responsibility to contain VHS, not to create a new political and social debate on meathods or restrictions or funding.
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Nice post Shawner, you are getting the point. At this point sportsmen should be focusing on preventing the further spread of VHS
Crayfishbob, There seems to be lots of "twistoramas" out there by people trying to prove their own points, nice rebuttal, keep on educating the masses.
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On the contrair. What I have in holdings right now are in the process of being tested, and I hope I can pay for all my expences. I have $1500 into them right now. I only hope to sell enough to break even. Its a short season and I'm due for another finiancial ass wumping !
I'm NOT a wholesale dealer. I own a baitshop. I get my own bait. With all that has transpired, and the opportunitys presented before me, I took a huge risk moving ahead with this. I would be willing to bet that i'm one of two that actually did the testing in this state and took the same risk. In the past, I have sold a few to other shops, but for convienance reasons only, at a small price.
I am actually being forced into the wholesale bait business in order to survive. Its the only logical means of surviving the bait business. Just last week, I proposed a program where I can provide bait to the big guys in the business AT COST as to relieve them of their burdons. Anyone here can call Bill's big catch in buffalo to confirm. Greedy I am not. I've been on the web way too long and if you knew anything about me, my crayfish, my websites , you will see me in a different light.
www.bluecrayfish.com (http://www.bluecrayfish.com)
www.oneidalake.us (http://www.oneidalake.us)
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The local baitshops have certified bait and even my poor a$$ can afford it I do know people with Erie emeralds but i chose to pay 1.50 a dozen for some from wisconsin to help at least slow the spread the best I as one fisherman can do. I suppose this hurts bait dealers but not us fisherman or at least around here . My opinion is if the DEC law says we have to use certified bait I will...
I am not a bait dealer I did sometimes gather my own come springtime but if that is not allowed and could possibly harm the fisheries around here I will just pay the few extra bucks and throw the seine net away...I am not well educated on this matter it just does not seem to be that big of a deal for us fishermen I do however see where this would hurt the bait guys which sucks but it is what it is.
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Just quit complaining about it and followq the rules all the bait you buy at the shops is good and there is nothing to worry about. Prices havent even gone up that much, plus the guy selling the bait has to make money to. I dont think that selling minnow is that lucrative of a business anyhow so as long as the people at the shop are friendly and treat ya good who cares if the raise there price a little.
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I think bait farms and distributers should have to get the certification not the bait shops. How will the bait get VHS in a truck coming from the certified bait ponds to the bait shops. It's not like they are going to stop and let them take a swim in Lake Ontario or Conesus.
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i think that is part of the reason for the bait increases the farms and distributers have to raise the prices due to the expensive testing i believe crayfishbob catches his own therefore he has to get them certified himself
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The only problem with getting your own bait from some lakes (and having it certified)is it WILL have VHS soon. I hope these indiviuals are ready to get your bait from somewhere else. Some of the Fingerlakes and Oneida will have VHS soon (just like zebra muscles and spine flea). I say this because they are connected to Lake Ontario via the Erie Canal and other canals and waterways. Over time, it will make it's way there. I hope it does not but I think it will.
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OkAY CRAY FISH SO YOUR GOING TO BECOME A DISTRIBUTOR.???AND YOUR PUSHING THIS WHY?OH I QUESS YOU JUST TOLD US WHY ::).SO WHY NOTHING ON KINGFISHERS IDEA TO STOP THE USE OF BAIT IN THE LAKES NOT INFECTED YET.?? ????TO STOP ALLOWING BAIT USE IN YOUR LAKE ALONG WITH THE OTHERS THAT ARNT INFECTED.MAN THAT ONE MAKES NO SENSE??????JUST LIKE YOU TRYING TO CONVINCE USE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN.IF YOU WERNT IN THE BAIT BUESS.YOU WOULD BE MORE CONVINCING.
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You are making way more sense now that you have your CAPS LOCK on!!!
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I think we have to adapt to changes in fishing regulations, they may be an inconvenience but I want my children to have a place to fish in the future.
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Stopping the use of live bait on some lakes would not be the answer. Most baits do not come from lakes around here. i.e. fatheads and shiners. A lot of these baits come from farm ponds. How would VHS get into these ponds?
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Gambell,
FYI, Bait shops are not the ones resposible for testing bait, unless they collect their own. Distrubutors can only sell certified bait to the shops. I think farmed bait only may become the way of the future.
Sticky, it was much earlier in my life that I learned that you can not reason with the unreasonable. ;)
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I thought I read in the report about the lake Huron sample that it was from specimens taken in 2003 from a die off and because they were so decomposed and a good example of VHS wasn't available that it was also thought that another disease may be at fault, botulism I believe. After the recent finding they went back to the frozen 2003 sample and confirmed its presence,that's the way I believe it went. DEC surveys and electro shocking do not contribute in any way to the spreading of any of the known viruses infact just the opposite. They are the tools used to take the samples and info needed to detect any problems, health and presence of species. All the vessels used are contaminant free, they do not transport bilge or livewell water from body to body. I have been involved in these activities and precautions are always part of any survey I was a part of especially using an electro-shocker.
That contradicts what Paul McKeown, Region 9 Fisheries Manager stated in the VHS meeting of Jan 8 2007 at Woodlawn Beach State Park.
According to McKeown, the top known pathway to infection spread (beyond natural fish movements) is normal fisheries management activities, including survey and stocking. In response to this one, the DEC adopted new SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) to inform their field personnel about potential risk of spreading VHS, and have implemented new "disinfecting" procedures for all their gear upon leaving one body of water, before use in the next one.
VHS was discovered in our coastal waters of Pacific and Atlantic in the late 1990's, hitting primarily salmon. One of the statements made by the DEC during the meeting was that the rules requiring ballast exchange on vessels before entering the SLS, could have been the way the pathogen was picked up. Although I have a hard time buying that one, it is remotely possible that Atlantic VHS was picked up, and then dumped into SLS, and mutated. A little far-fetched, I know, but it underscores the fact we do not know much at all.
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Wholly ?
twistorama ! First of all, Lake St.clair is not even in New York.
Exactly!!! They just waited untill it got to new york before doing something about it!!!
Gambell is right eventually its going to be in your lake no matter what.
King fisher has the most logical answer stop the bait fish use altogether in lakes that are not infected!!! :tipup:
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Don't care to get into the debate but this is what I found this weekend.
$2.00 more per dozen for pike minnows.
.25 more per dozen for fathead minnows.
Bait shop owner said it was in direct relation to this rule. He had the DEC printout laying right there as well.
Jon
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To all the doubters/rule-breakers/complainers...
If you want a more enforceable law in place, lobby for "no live bait" or even better "NO FISHING" in the entire state of NY!! Why stop there...how about the entire United States!! >:(
Wake up people...it's not about placing blame...we're all good at that...it's about preventing the spread of a potentially destructive disease. Do you want to be part of the problem, or the solution!!
Kudos to Crayfishbob & Capt JJ...they are trying to educate, get the word out, and stop the spread of VHS. You better believe I tell everyone that I know and meet...and to those of you who think it's stupid and aren't going to follow the rules...come fish near me. I'll meander over...talk to you real nice...survey your set-up...and call the DEC to report you!!
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Gambell,
FYI, Bait shops are not the ones resposible for testing bait, unless they collect their own. Distrubutors can only sell certified bait to the shops. I think farmed bait only may become the way of the future.
Sticky, it was much earlier in my life that I learned that you can not reason with the unreasonable. ;)
100% correct. This is handled through the transport of live fish rule. ALl live fish on the list of species prohibited by the APHIS order must be tested and certified, either from a VHS Free source, such as a contained private fish farm, or the lot is VHS-, if collected from a VHS- body of water. Commercial collection of bait is currently probitied from any waters that have tested VHS+.
Well stated CaptJJ
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To all the doubters/rule-breakers/complainers...
If you want a more enforceable law in place, lobby for "no live bait" or even better "NO FISHING" in the entire state of NY!! Why stop there...how about the entire United States!! >:(
Wake up people...it's not about placing blame...we're all good at that...it's about preventing the spread of a potentially destructive disease. Do you want to be part of the problem, or the solution!!
Kudos to Crayfishbob & Capt JJ...they are trying to educate, get the word out, and stop the spread of VHS. You better believe I tell everyone that I know and meet...and to those of you who think it's stupid and aren't going to follow the rules...come fish near me. I'll meander over...talk to you real nice...survey your set-up...and call the DEC to report you!!
I would have to say that this was probably the best and well thought out post on the entire subject.
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I appreciate the info doctari, can't say about region 9, I live and did all of my sampling and electro-shocking in region 8 with FLCC and a few times with DEC and USFW personnel. The last time for me was 2004, and it does make sense that they have adapted some new meathods and safety precautions. However, we always cleaned our equipment before we used it again and dumped any live well or bilge water at each particular location(electro-shocker). The streams and small bodies sampling used different equipment. The staff at FLCC has a lot of responsibility to the students and associates like the DEC, to take the precautions while teaching their courses. I can't say they were perfect everytime over the years, but while I was present, the precautions used at the time, were taken. Again, I appreciate your info and all of the reasonable input from everyone. Its impossible at this point to get everyone to agree and we have to listen to a little high towting(myself included), but this venue offers a great opportunity to discuss, get past and move towards agreeing on the best thing for everyone to realize that this issue isn't going away easily and we as sportsman have a responsibility in this matter. We should do the right thing and not the easiest. The choices are clear to me, do the right thing and we may contain it and minimize the effect overall, continue to do what you do the way you want to and risk spreading the disease(maybe to your currently clean lake), or do nothing and maybe it is a lot of hype or it will just go away. I, like a lot of others, came from an upbringing that created a sportsman, that lead me to be a conservationist so I will try to be part of the solution. That takes educating yourself, thank you doctari, crayfish Capt.and everyone else. Which we are doing in part here, myself included! :tipup:
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Don't care to get into the debate but this is what I found this weekend.
$2.00 more per dozen for pike minnows.
.25 more per dozen for fathead minnows.
Bait shop owner said it was in direct relation to this rule. He had the DEC printout laying right there as well.
Jon
I don't understand why anyone would incerease bait prices over this. The shiners and fat heads that are in the shops right now are from minnow farms from the south. It has been a requirement by them to have thier farms tested for years. When this came along in new york, it was a matter of providing paperwork to the bait dealers, nothing more.
Now for the future :
Stopping the use of live bait on some lakes would not be the answer. Most baits do not come from lakes around here. i.e. fatheads and shiners. A lot of these baits come from farm ponds. How would VHS get into these ponds?
Yes, the bait farms in new york are in peril. The two that I deal with are stopping selling minnows. One of wich is hanging it up. The state explained to me at the meeting that a bird like a seagull could bring a infected fish in. If that's true, then we are truly beating our heads against the wall here.
All the farm raised legal bait you buy now ( TODAY, NOT YESTERDAY) is from arkansas or minnesota. I went and called the largest producer of bait in arkansas.
The information he gave me has yet to be convayed here yet, I believe. Now that { most of us} are thinking in logical and decent nature, I can pass on more intelligent information.
Ok- They ( the bait farms of the south and midwest ) have been testing for viruses for years. Way back in 2001, when VHS hit washington state, This particullar bait farm started testing for vhs too, wich really is the same test procedure.
What they do is farm wide testing. Some of these ponds are bigger than a football stadium and the whole farn encompasses 1 sq mile, ( 640 acres) and is devided up by roads. There is uncountable minnows there, in the billions.
What they do is take a few out of each pond and send them off to the lab. The testing is done at pine bluffs, ark. wich is similar to cornell university here in NY. This is done twice a year .
So part of my request to NY state in response to the emergency laws was to recognise the small time bait farms in NY. The way they have it, and I asked at the meeting, the minnows have to be all harvested, brought to one single pond while being tested. ( this was a sum of a long conversation).
I want to see farm wide testing just like they do in the south, and the state provide funding to do so. I also want to see programs encouraging new bait farms, because the simple fact that bait farms are a controllable environment, unlike lakes.Bait farms are the future of bait. The bait farms in NY are in big trouble. This is why I founded the New York State baitfish Association. It is going to take years of hard work, but i'll get there.
So yes, the bait prices will go up for some when the bait farmers here in NY has to get thier bait tested, but that yet is to happen because of the time frames involved.
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New article on VHS is now published on http://www.weloveoutdoors.com (http://www.weloveoutdoors.com)
Gives plenty of insight into the conundrum we are facing.
Couple this with Grannis coming in as new Commissioner, and the game becomes dicier.
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The Conservation Fund is short $7 million as of January 1st, extra funds are not available for any new testing programs. With our new governor and his appointment of Grannis, the future is uncertain; you can bet they will make up the shortage by cutting some programs important to sportsmen.
Also, I just got off the phone with a DEC Region 5 biologist, don't be surprised to see further restictions on bait use, especially in the Adirondack Park.
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The Conservation Fund is short $7 million as of January 1st, extra funds are not available for any new testing programs. With our new governor and his appointment of Grannis, the future is uncertain; you can bet they will make up the shortage by cutting some programs important to sportsmen.
Also, I just got off the phone with a DEC Region 5 biologist, don't be surprised to see further restictions on bait use, especially in the Adirondack Park.
I just keeps getting better and better. FUBAR. I miss Pataki already. The funds should be restored to the CF through emergency legislation taken from the General Fund, like was done during CWD. This goes to the entire State, but, you are 100% correct. You ain't gonna see it.
Conundrum, indeed.
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I still wonder why crayfish and captjj havent said anything aboat kingfisher1 idea.??????????????????When theve been so open to talk aboat every thing else pertaning to v.h.s.Im sorry if it seems im trying to attack you.Im just wondering why youve had nothing to say aboat his idea?On captjj other post he asked me whats my beef?My beef is i use emeralds for almost all of fishing.Ive lived near and fished this lake all my life,like my father and grandfather.If they pass crayfishs proposal that will not allow me to net and use emeralds in the same lake,that will for the most part completly put a end to what my family has done for 3 generations now.I would hope the dec would be smart anufe to make a sensable law.Like kingfishers idea,in fact well be pushing for that on this end e mailing[and calling dec staff with kingfishers idea being so far makes the most sense of all the ideas ive seen.I know the retired senior aquatic biologist MR.C outa dunkirk i will call him and discuss with him his take on the idea, and this whole thing.We will talk to many others.No cray fish its not attitudes that help pass laws its actions like this that do.Its not to cool now the law may effect you and your lake now is it?No bait sales or use in a lake thats not been infected.Also its not that the baitshops would be charging a whole lot more.But its a fact bait sales will skyrocket if a law passes that stops fishermen from catching their own.bet you didnt think of that one ::)anyway i wont be wasting my time debaiting this with you or anyone else on iceshanty.I know a lota of guys around here and will take a diffrent aproach.Im nota fan of vhs or anything but im not for some sensless law thats gona ruin fishing for numerous fishermen,and watch the bait dealers get rich.I personally feel if stoping vhs was your only concern you woudve responded to kingfisher1 idea nothing from you or captjj?????on it yet?
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Why don't they eliminate the new regulations on the lakes where VHS has already been found? It makes no sense to limit the use of bait on a lake where the virus is already present. I don't see how using Lake Erie minnows on Conesus could hurt, since both lakes are already infected. They should concentrate on the lakes that do not have the virus. They could post a list of infected lakes and exclude them from the new regs.
The trouble is with this approach is that the State would have to have the ability to test every singlke body of water for VHS. They cannot. By permitting the collection and sale of bait from one known infected water to another "known infected" water, the risk of "abuse" or unlawful use of minnows increases, and enforcement is already a big time problem as it is. It is believed they could compound their problem, and effectively stymie LE from actually enforcing the laws (that they have no hope of enforcing in the first place)
Then of course you have the challenge of getting up to date information out to the angling community. Let's say the Great Lakes watersheds and Conesus Lake are the infected waters, but 15 more turn up positive next week. Now they have to amend their list of lakes, and this then changes LE strategies and priorities on a dime. Its easier to prohibit collection from known waters, as the act of collecting bait is easier than determining whether bait being used while angling came from a proper body of water.
I hope that helps.
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FYI
January 30, 2007, 10:43 AM EST
PITTSBURGH -- The state Fish and Boat Commission on Tuesday imposed a
temporary ban on taking live fish out of the Lake Erie watershed.
The ban is designed protect the health of the region's fishery by
reducing the potential spread of fish diseases, said commission
spokesman Dan Tredinnick.
Of particular concern is viral hemorrhagic septicemia, or VHS, a virus
that has been detected in the Great Lakes system in the last several
years. The virus has been linked to several fish kills and some fish
believed to carry the virus are used as bait fish.
The virus poses no risk to humans but causes internal bleeding in fish.
The federal government last year restricted the movement of 37 species
susceptible to the VHS virus.
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acouple questions-
Is the VHS in the water or in the fish?
Could VHS have existed for centuries, just no one looked or found it till now?
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acouple questions-
Is the VHS in the water or in the fish?
Could VHS have existed for centuries, just no one looked or found it till now?
VHS lives in the fish and is spread through ingestion of infected fish, or through infected fish bodily fluids crossing over the gills in the water, but fish need to be in close proximity to eachother (like schools of bait or spawning fish) for infection to spread. It spreads readily.
The first instances of this pathogen were detected in Europe @ 1979, in fish hatcheries farming rainbow trout. First instances in North America were detected (another strain) in the 1990's in marine fish on the Pacific and Atlantic Coasts, primarily in salmon.
This pathogen, since the 1990's has been on the "hot list" from the World Organization of Animal Health, and since that time, any new discoveries had to be reported to them. Although it is possible it has been here longer than we know, I highly doubt it has been here for a "long time", especially considering the severe damage this disease is known to cause (in fish culture operations, up to 100% mortality).
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Many have said that bait prices should not go up because the price of bait from the southwest is remaining stable and this is true. Now for a reality check, it all depends on where the baitshops got their bait before the new laws. before the new law my emerald shiners came from the Niagara River now they come from Wisconsin, at a price increase of over 100%. As for fatheads we used to get our fatheads locally except during very cold weather. Know we get all of are fatheads from the southwest at double the price. Our pike bait in the winter used to be commons from the Niagara River now all of are winter pike bait comes from the southwest at almost double the cost.
now for the real bad news price from the southwest are stable right now because there is little demand. What is going to happen in the spring when there is a demand?
Larry
Pembroke
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Many have said that bait prices should not go up because the price of bait from the southwest is remaining stable and this is true. Now for a reality check, it all depends on where the baitshops got their bait before the new laws. before the new law my emerald shiners came from the Niagara River now they come from Wisconsin, at a price increase of over 100%. As for fatheads we used to get our fatheads locally except during very cold weather. Know we get all of are fatheads from the southwest at double the price. Our pike bait in the winter used to be commons from the Niagara River now all of are winter pike bait comes from the southwest at almost double the cost.
now for the real bad news price from the southwest are stable right now because there is little demand. What is going to happen in the spring when there is a demand?
Larry
Pembroke
Bingo. Well said!
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