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Author Topic: URGENT! Phil Scott Proposal to temporally halt trout stocking Petition Added! p5  (Read 15215 times)

Offline pmaloney86

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The sportsman in your state need to organize and band together,and stop the them from closing the hatchery .take it from someone  in taxachusetts youll never get it back.

Bob you got that right.  They stock trout and only trout in MA with a put and take approach.  There are many rivers that if managed right could hold survivor strain trout.  Just look at the Deerfield River.  They have evidence that there are reproducing browns and brookies in the river yet those who control the dam flows continue to reduce the flows so low that most of the eggs end up high and dry.  yet our license fees continue to increase with less and less stocking each year.
westernmas on the finder

Offline Light liner

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Even a $10 per year registration for non motorized vessels would bring a huge revenue per year to help with fish hatcheries and other programs.
I have a kayak and I'm all for it.
As far as using a boat launch for ice fishing why not? You PAID for a fishing license??????
Champlain
Memphremagog

Offline koissu

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Even a $10 per year registration for non motorized vessels would bring a huge revenue per year to help with fish hatcheries and other programs.
I have a kayak and I'm all for it.
As far as using a boat launch for ice fishing why not? You PAID for a fishing license??????

Paying for my fishing license also gives me access via canoe or kayak. The launches are half federally funded anyways. If it saved the hatcheries and programs, I would gladly pay a fee. I just don't think it's great to say no kayaks or canoes should have access, it's what the launches are for. It's the people swimming and hanging out picnicking that are the issue.

Offline Theshad

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So if i buy my fishing license I don't have to register my boat? That's a good idea.

Offline koissu

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So if i buy my fishing license I don't have to register my boat? That's a good idea.

Not sure how you got that from what I said. Part of our fishing license fee goes toward the launches, as well as part of the the motorboat registration fee. I'm saying my license fee gives me access to the launch via canoe or kayak. And even those who don't, have access via canoe or kayak. You can't all act like 100% of launch funding is from your boat registration. It's from state taxes, federal funding, and parts of fees.

Offline Theshad

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Yes sir, that is correct.

Offline koissu

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Yes sir, that is correct.

Ah, I get it now!

Offline keithm87

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While I do think kayaks and canoes and bicycles should be registered if they use the public land, I don’t think that is the argument to have right now, as that is not the question. The stakes are high people! Contact your reps!

Offline Theshad

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I sent a message via the website earlier, I'll contact my rep as well. Good call.

Offline pmaloney86

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While I do think kayaks and canoes and bicycles should be registered if they use the public land, I don’t think that is the argument to have right now, as that is not the question. The stakes are high people! Contact your reps!

Does VT have the hiking safety card like NH?  In MA we can't hunt on Sunday so "hikers" can have their day in the woods.  Yet they don't buy any type of license or anything along those lines to help with the purchase of public land like fishermen and hunters do.  I think if they required people hiking on public land to pay a $20 license it could make up a lot of the gaps in the budget.
westernmas on the finder

Offline Light liner

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Yup this one got off track.
My bad.
I emailed the gov, mire people that do i would think will help.
Thanks for posting link.
Champlain
Memphremagog

Offline Champlain Islander

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Legal to use any State of Vt fishing access to launch a wheeler or snow machine used for fishing. IMO adding additional usage fees isn't a great idea.
Taught ice fishing for pan fish by one of the best...Art Rye may he RIP

Offline keithm87

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Yup this one got off track.
My bad.
I emailed the gov, mire people that do i would think will help.
Thanks for posting link.

The positive is that every post brings it to the top of the forum and brings eyes in.

Offline keithm87

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Senator Pollina of Washington county has said he will oppose the proposal!

Offline bootstrap

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Legal to use any State of Vt fishing access to launch a wheeler or snow machine used for fishing. IMO adding additional usage fees isn't a great idea.

 i agree the the areas were secured by out forefathers for the purpose of hunting and fishing period. having to supplement them is just poor management.

Offline IPflagkickr

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Adding more fees for licenses, kayak fees, etc. is just going to drive more people away from fishing. I personally know of quite a few people who stopped ice fishing after the bait law (which was supposed to be repealed after a couple of years) was implemented. This could be a result of some of the “old school” biologists that want only native trout. They stopped stocking Lakers in the NEK for a couple years now citing most of the ones they shock up are naturally reproducing fish. The browns and rainbows (except for steelhead) they stock are sterile and can’t reproduce. I’ve noticed a precipitous drop in trout numbers in smaller lakes like Echo, Island Pond, etc. I’ve heard from some younger biologists who absolutely disagree with the “old guard”. I don’t know if this part of the reason they want to shut it down but I find it hard to believe they couldn’t figure out the financial aspect. Our trout fishery is in serious trouble...typical VT unfortunately

Offline tench

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So if i buy my fishing license I don't have to register my boat? That's a good idea.

To use the fishing access? Yes that's a great idea. But motorized vessels need to be registered on navigable waterways, and trailers need to be registered for roadways so back to the original topic?
The charm of fishing is that it is the pursuit of what is elusive but attainable,
a perpetual series of occasions for hope.
~John Buchan

Offline OldChumBucket

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Re: URGENT! Flip Flop Phil Hatchery Proposal
« Reply #47 on: Feb 07, 2019, 05:26 AM »
phil will probably turn the site into a parking lot for people that received the $10K to move here from the citys a place to park their prius while they are out riding bikes in the middle of the roads.

Yup, spot on. VT boasts itself as welcoming to hunting & fishing which is a joke compared to other states in the region. The price keeps going up and you’re getting less and less. It’s unfortunate they want to close the hatchery.  It’s also quite possible Phil needs to get his diaper changed.  ???

Offline Champlain Islander

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Adding more fees for licenses, kayak fees, etc. is just going to drive more people away from fishing. I personally know of quite a few people who stopped ice fishing after the bait law (which was supposed to be repealed after a couple of years) was implemented. This could be a result of some of the “old school” biologists that want only native trout. They stopped stocking Lakers in the NEK for a couple years now citing most of the ones they shock up are naturally reproducing fish. The browns and rainbows (except for steelhead) they stock are sterile and can’t reproduce. I’ve noticed a precipitous drop in trout numbers in smaller lakes like Echo, Island Pond, etc. I’ve heard from some younger biologists who absolutely disagree with the “old guard”. I don’t know if this part of the reason they want to shut it down but I find it hard to believe they couldn’t figure out the financial aspect. Our trout fishery is in serious trouble...typical VT unfortunately
I believe the bait law was implemented mainly to prevent unwanted invasive species from getting into the lake in addition to preventing disease not native to the lake from getting here. I understand heterosporis a parasitic perch disease can be spread from infected fathead minnows. I believe the main disease they are hoping to keep away is VHS (Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia). Probably only a matter of time though since it is in some of the Great Lakes.
Taught ice fishing for pan fish by one of the best...Art Rye may he RIP

Offline Champlain Islander

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Re: URGENT! Flip Flop Phil Hatchery Proposal
« Reply #49 on: Feb 07, 2019, 05:38 AM »
Yup, spot on. VT boasts itself as welcoming to hunting & fishing which is a joke compared to other states in the region. The price keeps going up and you’re getting less and less. It’s unfortunate they want to close the hatchery.  It’s also quite possible Phil needs to get his diaper changed.  ???
The price hikes will continue as less and less people buy the licenses. The state pumps millions into the ski industry tourism but doesn't seem to care for the fishing and hunting contributions. The Department is internally funded so with less money coming in for license sales either overhead has to be cut back or rates rise. It is a catch 22 with the sportsmen getting the shaft.
Taught ice fishing for pan fish by one of the best...Art Rye may he RIP

Offline keithm87

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From talking to a local warden the old guard biologists are almost all retired or are very close. The young ones are putting in good work, see new bait laws for next year... I think in time we will see a shift to stocking for survival not just stocking to stock... I would like to see the state analyze whether a trout centric stocking system is the best approach. I feel lakes like places like marshfield reservoir would be better suited as walleye fisheries than as put and take no hold over trout ponds.

Offline keithm87

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Also fishing license sales are dead flat for the last 15 years... same today as they were in 04. Look at the graphs. There is no loss in fishermen, it’s hunters that are dropping like flies.

Offline Champlain Islander

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I haven't seen those graphs. Thanks for the info. Perhaps the fishing numbers remaining stable are attributed to the popularity of summer bass tournaments. Every weekend all summer there are tournaments on Champlain with many out of state participants who all need to buy both NY and Vt fishing licenses. Both the larger BASS and FLW tournaments often have 150 to 200 pros and back seaters most of which come from out of the area. It does seem at least from the ice fishing standpoint there are less people out there. Either way with the hunters aging out less money is coming into the Department.
Taught ice fishing for pan fish by one of the best...Art Rye may he RIP

Offline PikeKing23

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Honestly (and I hate to say it) I will not fish VT.  I have been to every other New England state and even hold licenses in a couple of them.  The bait laws and fishing in general laws in this state are ridiculous.  i does not seem like VT is very sportsman friendly.  They sure make it tough.

Offline thefishingweatherman

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Honestly (and I hate to say it) I will not fish VT.  I have been to every other New England state and even hold licenses in a couple of them.  The bait laws and fishing in general laws in this state are ridiculous.  i does not seem like VT is very sportsman friendly.  They sure make it tough.

What are you talking about? Vermont has the most diverse freshwater fishing in New England, and some of the most generous creel limits out there. Where else can you catch (and keep) a dozen brook trout daily, land monster steelhead, Salmon, browns, lakers, pike, muskee, gar, bowfin, drum, carp, whitefish, bass, and legally keep more white perch than you can physically pull off the ice? Where else are you legally allowed SHOOT some species of fish with a GUN? No where else in New England, that's for sure. Vermont is very sportsman friendly, relatively speaking, and that's one reason we are ranked 10th in the nation for the percentage of the population of active hunters, at 11.5%, second only to Maine for New England states. Vermont has the highest number of bucks harvested per square mile in New England as well. So, what is your basis for comparison?

As for bait laws, those are stringent to prevent our fisheries from being overrun with foreign invaders that could devastate our quality waters. Realistically, all they can do is slow things down though. States without as strict rules will only get overrun faster. Thank god we don't have the Eurasian Carp here (yet).

Outside of the Great Lakes, I would say you're not going to find better fishing around here than right here in Vermont.

Offline Theshad

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Here is the response I got after sending a message yesterday.

Dear Adam:

Thank you for reaching out regarding Vermont’s fish hatcheries.

Due to continued structural cost pressures in state government, we began the budget-making process for state government with a $40 million deficit. Similarly, as is reflected in my FY20 budget proposal, the Department of Fish and Wildlife’s fiscal position continues to be challenging. Increased costs from staff benefits, internal service charges, and revenue shortfalls meant the Department was faced with an estimated $450,000 gap by the time the budget was due to be completed.

The Department continues to see a decrease in the number of annual hunting and fishing licenses sold. The number of resident fishing, hunting and combination licenses sold decreased by 3.3% from 2017 to 2018 and was down 7.6% in 2018 compared to the previous three-year average. These licenses generate over a third of all hunting and angling license and permit revenue. Net revenues for just these three licenses produced a loss of $85,149 between 2017 and 2018. Based on the 2018 license year, projections for license sales in future years have been downgraded. While it would have been possible to cover the shortfall through increases in hunting, fishing and trapping licenses, I am concerned about the impact of growing prices on the ability of Vermonters to continue to live in our state.

The Department leadership worked with Secretary Moore to evaluate a range of possible strategies for addressing the shortfall. This was difficult work and there were no easy choices; the budget reflects the most responsible approach given the short-term and long-term position of the Department. The proposed budget addresses the shortfall through a mix of increased General Fund allocation and budget reductions. Most notably, the budget includes a 4.9% increase in the Department’s General Fund allocation and the decommissioning of the Salisbury Fish Culture Station.

The reasons for proposing the decommissioning the Salisbury Fish Culture Station (SAFCS) as opposed to another fish hatchery are two-fold. First, SAFCS is the Department’s most expensive in terms of dollars per-pound of the fish produced. Second, the facility is in need of significant infrastructure upgrades – preliminary estimates total upwards of $12 million – to meet modern discharge requirements under the Vermont Water Quality Standards and the federal Clean Water Act if it is to continue operating in future years, a problem made more significant by a change in how far downstream the effluent from the hatchery is measured.

While my Administration remains committed to efforts to grow revenue streams related to hunting and fishing licenses, the non-game fund, conservation license plates, and the habitat stamp, the proposed budget begins the hard work needed to better match our operations to current revenues.

Put simply, the significant capital expenditures required for the SAFCS to meet water quality standards coupled with ongoing operating expenses of the facility are overwhelming.

To be clear, my Administration remains committed to continuing to invest in our fish hatcheries. These hatcheries foster both economic and recreational opportunities across Vermont. In October of 2018,  we began reconstruction of the Roxbury Fish Hatchery severely damaged by Tropical Storm Irene. Similarly, in 2017, Department staff lead efforts to  increase the energy efficiency, environmental impact, and cost savings of fish culture stations across the state. I’m proud of these efforts we’ve undertaken to improve our fish hatcheries throughout the state.

If you have any further questions regarding the SAFCS, please don’t hesitate to contact the Department directly (802-828-1000) or my office (802-828-3333).

Again, thank you for reaching out.

Sincerely,

 

Philip B. Scott

Governor

Offline peteinvermont

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Although I can see a million less impact ways for our government to save that amount of money, I can see his point in that response. 

From my perspective, since our F&W funding comes primarily from license sales, and licenses sales are down, it puts more pressure on those of us still using the natural resources.  So just out of curiosity, how many people on here, especially anyone that is extremely opposed to the closing, buy the habitat stamp every year?

Offline Quantoson

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Trout Unlimited is not your friend in this issue.  They are the organization that wanted that hatchery closed. Just so no one states that I am taking it out of context, here is the paragraph in whole.

VII. Management of Cultured Trout (link to entire 117 page doc https://www.vttucouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Trout-Plan-2018-final.pdf)
 
Artificially reared, i.e. “cultured” trout provide an effective management tool for maintaining
recreational fisheries where adequate wild populations cannot be sustained due to physical or
environmental habitat limitations, particularly when these populations are subject to high fishing
pressure.  In Vermont, many popular trout fisheries in ponds, lakes and large rivers are dependent
on the stocking of cultured trout.  While an important component of many state fisheries agencies,
the large expense of cultured trout programs has raised questions of their economic, social and
ecological cost/benefit
(Johnson et al. 1995, White et al. 1995, Loomis and Fix 1997, Ham and
Pearsons 2001).  As fish culture comprises the majority of the fisheries management budget in
Vermont, this program must be managed effectively to meet fisheries management objectives and
ensure the greatest benefit to the angling community while avoiding or minimizing impacts to wild
trout and other aquatic populations.   The use of cultured trout should not be considered an
alternative to the protection or restoration of suitable trout habitat.
  As with wild trout populations,
only when optimal habitat conditions are available for cultured trout, will their benefits be fully
realized.

Vermont fishermen need to read the entire report.  They already banned bait, reduced catch limits and before you even realize they will ban everything but fly fishing and only a native trout species, brook, will be allowed in waters of Vermont.  They want every dam removed, all land brought back to it's original habit as it was before Europeans settle America.

Trout Unlimited is extreme liberal environmental group set on destroying anything and everything not natural which is why TU are in a blitz here in Montana and Washington State.   
More info on TU https://www.activistfacts.com/organizations/trout-unlimited/
Tu site with more docs https://www.vttucouncil.org/?page_id=18
The plan to reduce catch limits by TU http://www.vpr.org/post/call-reduce-catch-limits-vermonts-native-trout
wish you many hook-ups

Offline BlackDucksAndBrownDogs

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So just out of curiosity, how many people on here, especially anyone that is extremely opposed to the closing, buy the habitat stamp every year?

I was going to ask the same question.

I have purchased the stamp for each of the last two years.  Overall, I am disappointed that the annual revenue generated is less than $150k.  I'm not confident F&W can do anything meaningful with that modest revenue -- even with federal match.  But, I'll continue purchasing the stamp.

I'm primarily a waterfowl hunter and would like to see more wetlands conserved.  And, I'd really like to see management areas like Mud Creek improved to facilitate access and participation. 

As for trout fishing, I'd much rather see dollars invested in habitat restoration than stocking -- I have no interest in put-and-take fisheries.  The rant against TU (note that I am NOT a member) is absurd.  Look at the (habitat) work TU and VT F&W have done in the Nullhegan Basin over the last few years.  I wonder what benefits we'd see if we could leverage Habitat Stamp funds, federal match, and TU sponsorship in various watersheds?

From an economic standpoint, many of the responses above don't make sense.  While the rate of decline has stabilized, fishing license sales are still falling.  Raising prices while demand falls will make the problem worse.

Offline Quantoson

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I was going to ask the same question.

I have purchased the stamp for each of the last two years.  Overall, I am disappointed that the annual revenue generated is less than $150k.  I'm not confident F&W can do anything meaningful with that modest revenue -- even with federal match.  But, I'll continue purchasing the stamp.

I'm primarily a waterfowl hunter and would like to see more wetlands conserved.  And, I'd really like to see management areas like Mud Creek improved to facilitate access and participation. 

As for trout fishing, I'd much rather see dollars invested in habitat restoration than stocking -- I have no interest in put-and-take fisheries.  The rant against TU (note that I am NOT a member) is absurd.  Look at the (habitat) work TU and VT F&W have done in the Nullhegan Basin over the last few years.  I wonder what benefits we'd see if we could leverage Habitat Stamp funds, federal match, and TU sponsorship in various watersheds?

From an economic standpoint, many of the responses above don't make sense.  While the rate of decline has stabilized, fishing license sales are still falling.  Raising prices while demand falls will make the problem worse.

You called it a rant when I posted TU actual documents?   ::)
wish you many hook-ups

 



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