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Ice Fishing Tips -Check your local regulations! => Northern Pike => Topic started by: icenut_ on Jan 09, 2015, 10:50 PM
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is there something besides a steel leader I can use on tip ups for pike? I believe pike can see the steel leader and won't bite. is there something less visible I can use that pike wont break or cut through? :tipup:
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Flurocarbon... It's not steel but it's the next best thing. Use the hard leader type not fluro fishing line, there is a pretty big difference.
http://www.fishusa.com/product/Seaguar-Fluoro-Premier-Fluorocarbon-Leader-Material (http://www.fishusa.com/product/Seaguar-Fluoro-Premier-Fluorocarbon-Leader-Material)
Otherwise there is thin steel. I use this stuff quite a bit. The nylon coated stuff is nice because it doesn't kink as easily, but it looks like winch cable next to uncoated line like this.
http://www.fishusa.com/product/American-Fishing-Wire-Surfstrand-Camo-Wire (http://www.fishusa.com/product/American-Fishing-Wire-Surfstrand-Camo-Wire)
600 feet will last you a looooooooooooong time. lol
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I use Malin BOA titanium 20 lb. .008 dia.. Seagaur Premier Fluoro is .015 in dia.. That is one thousandth more than half of the diameter of the fluoro. Largest pike caught on it, 17 lb. 8 oz.
Replace due to wear and tear after roughly six caught pike. I've seen too many pike lost on fluoro. This is all I'll use.
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fluorocarbon or titanium. I am using 80lb fluoro right now. Boa No Kink is good stuff as well. Can tie knots with the stuff.
But I must add you can do just fine with steel. I caught a lot of pike on steel, a lot. And some big ones.
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Just me but don't over think this. If pike know what steel leader is and don't bite why don't they recognize what hooks are? Doesn't add up for me. That said, you basically have two choices:
1.) Opaque - steel, titanium or "superline". Only the steel and titanium are cut proof. I know guys say they do great with superline but it would be dead last on my list. Steel (uncoated) is just as thin as Ti but much cheaper, easier to work with and more flexible.
2.) Transparent - Mono or fluorocarbon. If you go this route make sure you purchase actual leader material, not line intended for spooling a reel. It is much tougher that spooling line. of the two fluoro is head and shoulders above mono for cut resistance. Notice I used the word "resistant" in place of "proof".
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To comment about superline...
I am 101% convinced that superlines like spiderwire, power pro, and suffix 832 are the most prone to bite offs of all lines. Using this stuff for leaders is counter productive. you are better off with 10lb mono than 50lb super braid. I actually went as far as experimenting with a large pike I took home to eat after getting severe gill and throat damage. I could not cut 20lb mono or fluro without raking it back and forth on the teeth several times. 10lb mono took 3-4 swipes. 50lb Spiderwire and 30lb power pro cut in the first rake. I wish I had taken a video of this.
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For pike I use 30lb Flurocarbon leader with great success
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To comment about superline...
I am 101% convinced that superlines like spiderwire, power pro, and suffix 832 are the most prone to bite offs of all lines. Using this stuff for leaders is counter productive. you are better off with 10lb mono than 50lb super braid. I actually went as far as experimenting with a large pike I took home to eat after getting severe gill and throat damage. I could not cut 20lb mono or fluro without raking it back and forth on the teeth several times. 10lb mono took 3-4 swipes. 50lb Spiderwire and 30lb power pro cut in the first rake. I wish I had taken a video of this.
not surprising, that's why it's incredibly easy to cut braid with a knife. Its the worse thing you could use for a leader.
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You couldn't convince me that pike care about the leader. I've always had success with coated steel leaders, there's even a guy around here that I just found out kills it with piano wire. After seeing many break offs with flouro and mono up to 50lbs. I just have a hard time chancing it. I did tie up some flouro leaders this year to try and experiment but I haven't even gotten them wet yet. I have a pack of that Knot 2 Kinky titanium and that stuff is a really neat concept, the stretch is unreal, however; It's nearly impossible to crimp it due to the lack of coating and the decrease in diameter when stretching and I just hate how ugly it ties even though it's probably very strong, something I thought you might be interested in though, if you don't like thick steel leaders. Good luck to everyone this season!
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Pike can get line shy. Not like walleyes, but there is a time and place when coarse tackle will only catch smaller fish. Snot rockets don't have much common sense when it comes to eating a pound of hooks and three feet of winch cable, but the big ones that have been pressured will look at it and NOPE.
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I use a lot of knot 2 kinky. I use #2 crimp sleeves. But I ha e to bend the tag end and run it back through a second time. Otherwise it slides right back out of the sleeve.
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Reguarding steel,I think they have a memory to a degree of associating a steel leader with a bad experience like getting yanked out of the water.. Do i know it for a fact ? no.. No one 100% can say either way, we'd have to get into a pike brain to figure that one out..
What i more firmly believe in is this, lighter leaders and tackle are less taxing on baits endurance, or liveliness so to speak..Making it more visible from a distance and more apt to try and escape or evade an incoming pike making for a more natural presentation..
For the record Ive yet to have a member of the Pike family rip through a polymer line on me, Ive caught some pretty good size fish.. Pike in my avatar I had 30lb mono on.. If you play the fish right and wear them down instead of trying to play tug of war with them lines will mysteriously stop snapping..
I really believe thats what most experience and pass it off as the fish ripped/bit through the line..
Just my opinion formed from observations fishing with others.. Whole lotta guys i see out there trying to bulldog a big fish in.... Let em run and keep the steady pressure on them..
@)
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My buddy got cut off before he even got to the flag while he was using 60lb floro. He got there and no line was out and the hook and bait was gone. He was using dead bait and there was no drag tension on the tipup, the fish bit through the floro in the initial strike. If they bite the leader the right way even a small fish can cut 60-80lb floro. That being said I like using 60 or 80 floro because I fish pressured lakes with clear water and I've got a lot more flags since I switched from steel. You will get cut off occasionally even with line that heavy, going lighter than 50 and your asking for trouble. I've also messed around with crimps using steel, titanium and floro and I'll never use them while ice fishing again. I've seen them fail too many times. If you crimp it down too hard you can damage the line, not enough and it will slip, and even if you crimp it just right water gets inside the crimp and when you take your tipups out at the end of the day the water inside the crimp can freeze and expand the crimp causing it I slip on a future trip.
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My buddy got cut off before he even got to the flag while he was using 60lb floro. He got there and no line was out and the hook and bait was gone. He was using dead bait and there was no drag tension on the tipup, the fish bit through the floro in the initial strike. If they bite the leader the right way even a small fish can cut 60-80lb floro. That being said I like using 60 or 80 floro because I fish pressured lakes with clear water and I've got a lot more flags since I switched from steel. You will get cut off occasionally even with line that heavy, going lighter than 50 and your asking for trouble. I've also messed around with crimps using steel, titanium and floro and I'll never use them while ice fishing again. I've seen them fail too many times. If you crimp it down too hard you can damage the line, not enough and it will slip, and even if you crimp it just right water gets inside the crimp and when you take your tipups out at the end of the day the water inside the crimp can freeze and expand the crimp causing it I slip on a future trip.
Completely agree with the crimping..
As per your buddy, it sounds like something else went wrong to me, like accidently reverse winding the line on the tip up for a few wraps.. Ive caught myself doing it a few times.. Just seems like you would need a cut edge to cut edge pinch point to sheer through 60lb fluro hanging freely... Just my opinion..
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Completely agree with the crimping..
As per your buddy, it sounds like something else went wrong to me, like accidently reverse winding the line on the tip up for a few wraps.. Ive caught myself doing it a few times.. Just seems like you would need a cut edge to cut edge pinch point to sheer through 60lb fluro hanging freely... Just my opinion..
Nope, he is very particular about his gear and knows what he's doing. He's no amateur, even writes for On The Water magazine. Definitely wasn't equipment failure. I jinxed myself by posting about how I like floro leaders btw...snapped one off on the hook set today using 80lb floro. I didn't even feel the weight of the fish.
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i have used 20# mono for years with no complaints. pike arent line shy. we just used to tie to the 40# dacron years ago, and still caught fish.
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i have used 20# mono for years with no complaints. pike arent line shy. we just used to tie to the 40# dacron years ago, and still caught fish.
If you ran 20lb mono up here you would regret it quick fast and in a hurry..
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I'll offer some dissenting opinions on a couple of things:
1.) I used to think crimps were evil until I ran out of freshwater fishing shows and started to watch the saltwater ones. Most of these guys live and die by the crimp and they are usually catching much bigger fish than we are. Yes, Virginia, there is a right way and a wrong way to crimp. I came across some very informative material and I have changed my tune. That said, I still prefer steel and there are better ways than crimps to connect that.
2.)
As per your buddy, it sounds like something else went wrong to me, like accidentally reverse winding the line on the tip up for a few wraps.. Ive caught myself doing it a few times.. Just seems like you would need a cut edge to cut edge pinch point to sheer through 60lb fluro hanging freely... Just my opinion..
I've had this happen experimenting with "plastic" leader material. I am not a fish horser. What I believe happened in my cases is that fish got off aways through heavy weeds, turned a couple of corners and by the time I got to it it was likely mostly cut thru already. Just my surmising...
So toothy critters on light leaders in open water, you stand a chance IF you don't get too excited. In heavy cover, I'll bet on the fish. That said, I still treat my 20# uncoated wire pretty gingerly. It's not a horse rig, just insurance against something unforeseen.
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To play devil's advocate...
I've noticed a a direct correlation between "bite offs" and poor ability to tie a knot while fishing with others. Guys who fumble with their knots or only can tie one or two knots effectively get "bit off" much more than guys who have a half dozen or more knots memorized and understand when to use them. The best line on earth is worthless if it cant be terminated effectively. Why do people have this knot slipping/breaking problem with pike? They are heavier in the water, and anglers tend to set the hook with much greater force than with other species.
Also, I notice MANY more "bite offs" in zebra mussel infested waters. Those things are a real pain.
I think lots of line and knot failures get blamed on pike teeth. I'm pretty sure there are other factors in play in many cases though.
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Used to use 20# mono leader about 2' long, caught 100's of pike up to 15# and was never bit off!! Maybe just lucky!
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To play devil's advocate...
I've noticed a a direct correlation between "bite offs" and poor ability to tie a knot while fishing with others. Guys who fumble with their knots or only can tie one or two knots effectively get "bit off" much more than guys who have a half dozen or more knots memorized and understand when to use them. The best line on earth is worthless if it cant be terminated effectively. Why do people have this knot slipping/breaking problem with pike? They are heavier in the water, and anglers tend to set the hook with much greater force than with other species.
Also, I notice MANY more "bite offs" in zebra mussel infested waters. Those things are a real pain.
I think lots of line and knot failures get blamed on pike teeth. I'm pretty sure there are other factors in play in many cases though.
All due respect Skipper, I'm one of those guys that only knows a few knots. But they are good ones and do everything I need them to do for me. Like not slip with superlines that I use almost exclusively for open water applications. Palomar and Uni are 100% non-slippers. I know and have used some "old school" knots like the Trilene (quick and effective for mono/fluoro lines), blood, nail (I use for snelling) and clinch knots. When it really comes down to it I could rely on about 4 or maybe 5 good knots. I could do the "Knot Wars" thing but I like simple and effective. That's just me.
I also know the difference between a returning pig tail (bad knot) and a bite off (8 of 14 inches coming back).
I know..... "Devil's advocate". I do that sometimes too. And yes, zebras suck. Razor sharp. We've got 'em all over area lakes.
Just my experiences.
And Gills, if I were you..... all I'd do is buy lottery tickets. ;D
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I do never came close!!!!!
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To play devil's advocate...
I've noticed a a direct correlation between "bite offs" and poor ability to tie a knot while fishing with others. Guys who fumble with their knots or only can tie one or two knots effectively get "bit off" much more than guys who have a half dozen or more knots memorized and understand when to use them. The best line on earth is worthless if it cant be terminated effectively. Why do people have this knot slipping/breaking problem with pike? They are heavier in the water, and anglers tend to set the hook with much greater force than with other species.
Also, I notice MANY more "bite offs" in zebra mussel infested waters. Those things are a real pain.
I think lots of line and knot failures get blamed on pike teeth. I'm pretty sure there are other factors in play in many cases though.
It is easy to tell a bite off, from a bad knot. If your knot came undone, the last few inches of line you pull up will be all coiled up. I've seen it happen a lot, but like you mentioned, it often comes on the hook set. I can't remember a "bite off" that happened instantly. All the ones I had were mid fight, often as a run at the hole. In open water, people often catch pike while walleye fishing with Lindy rigs. As with a quick strike, you often have multiple hooks if you use a crawler rig. I think that plays a huge part. I've had it happen a number of times I have pulled in a pike on my quick strike with one hook cut off (and in the mouth), and the other still holding on. But those rigs need a relatively violent hook set, which also often PO's fish and really gets them to fight right away. I've lost, and seem people loose some good fish to fluorocarbon. Would the fish have bit if it were a steel leader? Who knows. I still use fluorocarbon, but it is becoming used less and less. It has become more of a secret weapon for me. If fish don't bite, I have pre-tied rigs I just need to put on my tip ups. I am still firmly set on 40# being the bare minimum for bait fishing pike. No fluorocarbon is bite-proof, but 40# gives you a solid chance.
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Used to use 20# mono leader about 2' long, caught 100's of pike up to 15# and was never bit off!! Maybe just lucky!
Never bit off once, 20lb mono, hundreds of pike. hmmmmmmmmmm..
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Never bit off once, 20lb mono, hundreds of pike. hmmmmmmmmmm..
These were not large pike, biggest 15#, used to catch about 40 -60 per year, believe what you want!!
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Never bit off once, 20lb mono, hundreds of pike. hmmmmmmmmmm..
100s of pike here also.. more than a few over 20lbs , never had fish bite through the line.. Must be the 2 luckiest fisherman alive..
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100s of pike here also.. more than a few over 20lbs , never had fish bite through the line.. Must be the 2 luckiest fisherman alive..
Naw, where I live the pike have sharper teeth! ;)
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100s of pike here also.. more than a few over 20lbs , never had fish bite through the line.. Must be the 2 luckiest fisherman alive..
Guess gotta know what ur doing!! Yes, change the leader after catching one, that's common sense!
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I heard they have a better dental plan out your way ;D
In all seriousness, confidence in what you are using sometimes is all you need.. The leader debate will never die. Steel, wire, fluro, mono, braid, dacron .. The all work...
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I heard they have a better dental plan out your way ;D
In all seriousness, confidence in what you are using sometimes is all you need.. The leader debate will never die. Steel, wire, fluro, mono, braid, dacron .. The all work...
Agreed!!
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You can catch pike on 2# line, does that make it ethical? Not at all. 20# fluorocarbon, however, use if if it works for you. Its pretty tough stuff, it just does not work for me. Braid, no (of any strength). If someone fishing with me insisted on using braided leaders, I would tell him to start walking.
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BOA is the only way to go
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Malin boa no-kink leader? I've never tried single strand wire on a tip up, or any bait rig. What advantages does it have over a flexible leader?
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I use the Knot 2 kinky titanium. Its basically as flexible as any steel leader. Half as thin. I like it a lot.
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Malin boa no-kink leader? I've never tried single strand wire on a tip up, or any bait rig. What advantages does it have over a flexible leader?
According to the manufacturer "the natural color and non-glare finish, makes it virtually invisible in most fishing applications."
It also claims it stretches, has high flexibility, and maximum abrasion resistance. I can vouch for the stretch claim and abrasion resistance.
It can kink though. You can tie a knot with it but you don't want to pull too tight on the tag. The main advantage I see is that it's thinner
and it won't cut. Depending upon how many pike and how big you catch using it, determines when to replace it. That occurs with any line.
I've lost two pike using it for the last few years and that's due to figuring out its limitations.
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I might have to give that stuff a try some time. You say you can tie a knot, but can you use the haywire twist like most single strand leaders?
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I haven't got the knot tying with the Knot 2 kinky figured out. I tried tying rigs up at first. But the stuff is super slick so to say. A good amount of pressure and the tag end would just slide out and the whole works would just untie. My next experiment was to use crimp sleaves. Liked the more dressed up look. But if you pass the leader wire through the sleave then the hook eye and back up through the sleeve then crimp. Same thing. The leader will slide right back out of the sleeve and you have a fish gone. So now I pull enough tag back up through the sleeve so I can loop back around and go back up, pull tight then crimp. Has been working good so far. Now I want to figure out how use it to make some inline quick stike rigs for deeper water. To the guys that make the straight line rigs. Do you fix tight the upper hook. Leave it to slide freely? I think I experimented with this once a while back. I think I put in a sleeve, put a hook in the loop then around though the sleeve then to the end hook. The sleeve slid down the wire hit the bottom and pig tail curled the titanium wire to make the leader almost useless to use again.
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I use 15lb steel leader material with sleeves crimped to size 6 treble and loop end. I also string a small red bead above the hook end crimp and a pea sized colorado spinner on clevis that provides some extra flash.
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I may just have to find some different material (wire) to make these. I just happen to have four rolls of Knot 2 kinky on hand.
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On inline rigs, I tie the front hook on solid. The reason being, if the section between the front hook and the rear hook gets cut (flurorocarbon) I still have a chance of bringing in the fish. I see some leave the front hook free to slide. The advantage to this is you can slide it to any length bait you want. Either way, the key to all quick strike rigs is a long, sweeping hook set.
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I have good luck using 20 or 30 lbs AFW surfstrand 7strand stainless steal leader material. It's alot thinner than anything else I have found. It does kink after a few fish, but to me it's worth it. All the coated leaders seem way to thick for me.
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I use the 80lb flourocarbon leader material that I make my muskie leaders out of. I make my own quick strike rigs. I make a single leader and secure one of those single hook teardrops, but pike size. Then I make another small leader, about 3" long with a red #4 treble hook. The smaller leader has a welded black ring in the loop at the top. This ring goes on the longer leader before the top of the long leader is crimped shut. This allows the smaller leader to slide up and down the main leader line. I secure the single hook in the back of the minnow and the treble goes through the mouth.
For the poster earlier talking about crimping flouro. There is a trick that will guarantee you'll never have flouro slide through a double barrel sleeve. Before you crimp, slide the tag end further out, burn it briefly with a lighter until you get a ball to form. Then slide ball end up to the sleeve and crimp.
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For the poster earlier talking about crimping flouro. There is a trick that will guarantee you'll never have flouro slide through a double barrel sleeve. Before you crimp, slide the tag end further out, burn it briefly with a lighter until you get a ball to form. Then slide ball end up to the sleeve and crimp.
x2 on that. Using a proper tool instead of mashing 'em down with a pliers is another step in the right direction.
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80lb seaguar!
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i have read that thicker# flouro is easyer for them to see then thin # wire
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Mehhh. Hardbto say really. Depends on depth, water clarity, brightness. It would be tough to generalize that into a truth. Lot of variables. I will just say this, ive got several 40+" pike on steel, and ive got several 40+" pike on heavy fluoro. I think the fluoro holds a slight advantage but thats just me. Ive been having awesome results with it.
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i have read that thicker# flouro is easyer for them to see then thin # wire
That may have been me.... There is some science to support that. I probably used the phrase, "may be more visible than".
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Depends on the water clarity and brand of floro. Not all floro is the same. If the water is even slightly stained a good floro is harder to see than steel. In really clear water they'll see thick floro.
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Go steel or go home, if you are catching and keeping fish, i mean big pike with that floro crap, you should play the lottery, . Please dont tell us you never got bit off or lost fish because of that stuff. Please !
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Go steel or go home, if you are catching and keeping fish, i mean big pike with that floro crap, you should play the lottery, . Please dont tell us you never got bit off or lost fish because of that stuff. Please !
I agree I always use steel leaders and prefer 18" or longer ive had big pike swallow baits and short leaders were engulfed.
ive also had big pike thrash there heads and shred steel leaders and straighten hooks.
I was gonna run 1 fluro leader this yr to see if it out produced steel but couldn't make myself do it.
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I do not tip-up fish anymore.With that said , I do Pike and Musky fish in soft water and i use 130# florocarbon leaders and have never had a Musky break them. They are not seen in H20. I make them from Berkley Big Game leader material with Crimps. When fishing Heavy weeded lakes a Single 7 Strand wire cuts the weeds better than floro.
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Go steel or go home, if you are catching and keeping fish, i mean big pike with that floro crap, you should play the lottery, . Please dont tell us you never got bit off or lost fish because of that stuff. Please !
Never got bite off or lost a fish because of that stuff.. Just played the lottery and lost.. :P
Have you ever used a heavy polymer line and definitively hooked up with a big northern ?
i have read that thicker# flouro is easyer for them to see then thin # wire
I find that interesting because one of flouros main selling points is that it vanishes in the water.. With that said put wire in water and flouro in the water and tell me what one stands out the most.... Again wire in water, clear line in water..
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"I find that interesting because one of flouros main selling points is that it vanishes in the water.. With that said put wire in water and flouro in the water and tell me what one stands out the most.... Again wire in water, clear line in water."
With clear ice on a sunny day, I can see my 4lb. 100% fluorocarbon all the way down to a tiny jig 20' deep. As it is, I use 4lb. over 6lb. because trout can be line shy. If I don't tie the knot just right
when clinching it down, that little bit of 1/2 stretch on the line where it is tied refracts the light differently than the rest of the line. I can't imagine that 60lb. would be different. Throw in some nicks and kinks and it will show up even more. If I didn't experience break offs, I'd still be using fluoro, but I really like using titanium wire. I can't make a claim as to which one out produces the other because I made an immediate switch to wire. We have a two rod limit and a tip-up counts as a rod so I haven't done a comparison between the two because I still have to jig. But hey, if you don't
get broken off on whatever line your using, why change?
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I use the Knot 2 kinky titanium. Its basically as flexible as any steel leader. Half as thin. I like it a lot.
what kind of knot(s) are used with this stuff? just ordered some... are preferred knots on the packaging?
thanks, htc
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I can tell you from experience that a uni knot is one of the easiest to get into thicker line. That said, I have never had good results tying wire, and have never tried titanium. On the packaging of some steel leader I have says you can use conventional fishing knots on it. I've had usable uni knots on steel leaders, although I could never get them perfect every time. You wont be able to use the clinch, and I doubt you could get 2 leads through for a palomar knot. A nail knot is known as a good leader knot.
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ok those make sense will be good place to start suppose just experiment a bit see what can get to hold for me.
knot wars says says nail aka gryp is very good terminal knot they only rate floro mono and braid though no steel or titanium hehe
thanks, htc
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I had a monster chain pickerel bite through 20 floro once....was after a fish to break my personal best of chain pickerel 27" and six pounds. Took me a decade and I bust him on 20 floro seaguar....kind of unforgettable....I moved to 30 floro so far no pick has even come close...
To trust a personal best pike to 20 seems....sketchy to me. Maybe I've been "horsing" them in....I don't know.