Officially switching to fluoro for pike tip up leaders

[Esox fisherman]

After multiple seasons of not catching pike on tip ups besides 1 i have decided to make the switch to fluoro and was wondering if i should tie my own or use pre-tied with the swivels and if i should use rubber core sinkers or just use split shots (I only use single hooks i refuse to use trebles) Also what lb fluoro should i use 100lb was to stiff for me and also seemed to not allow the minnow to swim very much

[thomasthepikehunter]

You will definitely want to tie your own, you can't buy fluorocarbon rigs that are worth anything to ice fishing pike. All the rigs out there are overbuilt with crazy thick lines, and crimp sleeves and oversized hooks to handle open water musky fishing. You really didn't get too specific for recommendations, because it can vary so much based on what rig you want to use, or what bait size you are using. You say you are using single hooks, so I assume you are only going to use one of those, not multiple hook rigs like a quick strike. I'm also going to assume you are using smaller bait like a shiner, or small sucker or something.

There's really two ways to go for rigs there. You can use just a plain old J hook, or you can use a circle hook, there's not much difference between them. I used circle hooks for years, and in my opinion, they are not nearly as good with pike as they are other fish like catfish. You can still gut hook them, it does seem to reduce deep hooks, but that's not a big problem I've had with regular J hooks. It also seems to increase missed or lost fish, so at least for me, I do not intend to use circle hooks for pike any more. If you do use a circle hook, you will want to use a snell knot with the line first going in the front of the eye. This gives a little more help to the hook for pivoting when hooking, or at the very least it seems to keep the knot out of the way. With a regular J hook, I use a uni knot, but any knot is fine. You can snell knot a J hook if you want. I find on really heavy fluorocarbons, a uni is the easiest to tie, along with a snell knot. The hook size you use depends on the bait size. For a small sucker like 4" long, a 2/0 J hook seems good. I tend to go a little bigger on J hooks, and a little smaller on circle hooks.

Depending on the line and leader you use, you could tie directly with a line to line knot, but I almost always use a swivel, it's just easier. The weights you use are not really important. I've used rubber core, split shot, egg sinkers, and anything else. The idea with rubber core is that it doesn't pinch the line, and should in theory not weaken the line. This isn't a problem with pike fishing, especially with tip ups as both your line and leader are way stronger than needed to handle the fish. At least for me, I do not intend to buy rubber core anymore, they are bigger and bulkier, and there's really no reason to use them. There's not too many weedy lakes here in South Dakota, but when I lived in Minnesota, most lakes were choked out with milfoil and cattails, and other weeds. I think in that instance an egg sinker might help a little as it can slide on the line and not catch on things. This requires that your leaders is fairly short though, say under 16" to really do the job. In your case I would try to use a 3 foot or 4 foot long leader, maybe even longer. Mostly I use split shot. They are compact, easily removable, and offered in tons of sizes. You just have to play around with how much weight to use. I'm not even certain what I use, probably 1/4 or 3/8 oz on most tip ups.

The leader material you use is kind of an open ended subject. I used fluorocarbon for close to a decade as well as mono. What I've found, and what has been shown in abrasion tests is that nylon monofilament is at least as good as fluorocarbon, if not slightly better. The other thing is visibility, which I never believed the marketing to begin with. Test after test has shown that there is no truth, both nylon monofilament and fluorocarbon monofilament are equally visible, or invisible depending on how you look at it. Its really easy to test yourself too, just stick both lines in a cup of water and look at it, or look at them while you are underwater at a lake or something. My eyes are decent, and I can not tell one bit of difference between them. There is a time and place for fluorocarbon, it is less elastic (it does still stretch, and often more than nylon monofilament) which makes it less like a rubber band like nylon line is. This at least in theory should allow you to feel bites better. There is also some other benefits such as that it sinks in water. Nylon does too once it soaks up some water, but for most fishing purposes it floats. Neither of those are attributes I consider a good thing for a pike leader. I would rather have an elastic line for a tip up, and I've started adding a section of nylon monofilament to my tip ups above my steel leaders.

While I understand you say you want to use a fluorocarbon leader, I would suggest you consider a nylon monofilament. They even make leader material specific ones, although I have not seen evidence they are any harder or more cut resistant than anything else. How heavy of a line you use makes a dramatic difference. In my own experience, I was still getting too many bite offs at a 40# line. I lost a really nice fish with 50# line. I went all the way to 80# and that has held up for me. You still have to check the line every fish to make sure it did not get beat up, and retie if it feels rough. Of the people I know and trust, not just internet lore, the lightest line I have seen used successfully is 30#. He gets occasional bite offs, but it's not too bad. I think the key factor is he is mainly using rod and reels, sometimes auto-hook setting, sometimes not. He doesn't use your typical tip up trap too often. It makes a big difference if your leader is actually touching the teeth or not. I like to use the biggest baits I can, often with multi-hook quick strikes, and while I try to set the hook as soon as I possibly can, it's always a roll of the dice exactly where the leader will be. Mine tend to be in the teeth often. Since it sounds like you are mainly using smaller baits, and you are using a single hook, you might get away with a lighter line like 30# or 40#. If I were you, I would give Trilene XT 30# a try as a leader. The big problem for me is an 80# fluorocarbon or nylon monofilament is really, really stiff and obnoxious. It is MORE visible in the water than a 20# steel leader.

Now all that said, if you really went multiple seasons with no pike, there's only one explanation. You are not fishing where there are pike, plain and simple. Maybe the lakes you are on are poor, or maybe you are in the wrong spots. If you are in an area with pike, even if you used 1/8" steel cable, at some point one dumb pike would take the bait. It's less likely, although possible they don't like your bait. If you are putting down hot dogs, while they can work, they are not a good bait. We catch enough pike on minnows that you should have caught something even if you were using like a fathead minnow or something. Maybe it's a combo? A tiny minnow, set really low like 6" off the bottom in the middle of a lake with few pike around such as crappie fishing, is not likely to catch many pike. Put a decent sucker on in a better area, set higher like 3 foot or 4 foot off the bottom, and you might start catching fish.

[Esox fisherman]

You will definitely want to tie your own, you can't buy fluorocarbon rigs that are worth anything to ice fishing pike. All the rigs out there are overbuilt with crazy thick lines, and crimp sleeves and oversized hooks to handle open water musky fishing. You really didn't get too specific for recommendations, because it can vary so much based on what rig you want to use, or what bait size you are using. You say you are using single hooks, so I assume you are only going to use one of those, not multiple hook rigs like a quick strike. I'm also going to assume you are using smaller bait like a shiner, or small sucker or something.

There's really two ways to go for rigs there. You can use just a plain old J hook, or you can use a circle hook, there's not much difference between them. I used circle hooks for years, and in my opinion, they are not nearly as good with pike as they are other fish like catfish. You can still gut hook them, it does seem to reduce deep hooks, but that's not a big problem I've had with regular J hooks. It also seems to increase missed or lost fish, so at least for me, I do not intend to use circle hooks for pike any more. If you do use a circle hook, you will want to use a snell knot with the line first going in the front of the eye. This gives a little more help to the hook for pivoting when hooking, or at the very least it seems to keep the knot out of the way. With a regular J hook, I use a uni knot, but any knot is fine. You can snell knot a J hook if you want. I find on really heavy fluorocarbons, a uni is the easiest to tie, along with a snell knot. The hook size you use depends on the bait size. For a small sucker like 4" long, a 2/0 J hook seems good. I tend to go a little bigger on J hooks, and a little smaller on circle hooks.

Depending on the line and leader you use, you could tie directly with a line to line knot, but I almost always use a swivel, it's just easier. The weights you use are not really important. I've used rubber core, split shot, egg sinkers, and anything else. The idea with rubber core is that it doesn't pinch the line, and should in theory not weaken the line. This isn't a problem with pike fishing, especially with tip ups as both your line and leader are way stronger than needed to handle the fish. At least for me, I do not intend to buy rubber core anymore, they are bigger and bulkier, and there's really no reason to use them. There's not too many weedy lakes here in South Dakota, but when I lived in Minnesota, most lakes were choked out with milfoil and cattails, and other weeds. I think in that instance an egg sinker might help a little as it can slide on the line and not catch on things. This requires that your leaders is fairly short though, say under 16" to really do the job. Mostly I use split shot. They are compact, easily removable, and offered in tons of sizes. You just have to play around with how much weight to use. I'm not even certain what I use, probably 1/4 or 3/8 oz on most tip ups.

The leader material you use is kind of an open ended subject. I used fluorocarbon for close to a decade as well as mono. What I've found, and what has been shown in abrasion tests is that nylon monofilament is at least as good as fluorocarbon, if not slightly better. The other thing is visibility, which I never believed the marketing to begin with. Test after test has shown that this it isn't true. Its really easy to test yourself too, just stick both lines in a cup of water and look at it, or look at them while you are underwater at a lake or something. My eyes are decent, and I can not tell one bit of difference between them. There is a time and place for fluorocarbon, it is less elastic (it does still stretch, and often more than nylon monofilament) which makes it less like a rubber band like nylon line is. This at least in theory should allow you to feel bites better. There is also some other benefits such as that it sinks in water. Nylon does too once it soaks up some water, but for most fishing purposes it floats. Neither of those are attributes I consider a good thing for a pike leader. I would rather have an elastic line for a tip up, and I've started adding a section of nylon monofilament to my tip ups above my steel leaders.

While I understand you say you want to use a fluorocarbon leader, I would suggest you consider a nylon monofilament. They even make leader material specific ones, although I have not seen evidence they are any harder or more cut resistant than anything else. How heavy of a line you use makes a dramatic difference. In my own experience, I was still getting too many bite offs at a 40# line. I lost a really nice fish with 50# line. I went all the way to 80# and that has held up for me. You still have to check the line every fish to make sure it did not get beat up, and retie if it feels rough. Of the people I know and trust, not just internet lore, the lightest line I have seen used successfully is 30#. He gets occasional bite offs, but it's not too bad. I think the key factor is he is mainly using rod and reels, sometimes auto-hook setting, sometimes not. He doesn't use your typical tip up trap too often. It makes a big difference if your leader is actually touching the teeth or not. I like to use the biggest baits I can, often with multi-hook quick strikes, and while I try to set the hook as soon as I possibly can, it's always a roll of the dice exactly where the leader will be. Mine tend to be in the teeth often. Since it sounds like you are mainly using smaller baits, and you are using a single hook, you might get away with a lighter line like 30# or 40#. If I were you, I would give Trilene XT 30# a try as a leader. The big problem for me is an 80# fluorocarbon or nylon monofilament is really, really stiff and obnoxious. It is MORE visible in the water than a 20# steel leader.

Now all that said, if you really went multiple seasons with no pike, there's only one explanation. You are not fishing where there are pike, plain and simple. Maybe the lakes you are on are poor, or maybe you are in the wrong spots. If you are in an area with pike, even if you used 1/8" steel cable, at some point one dumb pike would take the bait. It's less likely, although possible they don't like your bait. If you are putting down hot dogs, while they can work, they are not a good bait. We catch enough pike on minnows that you should have caught something even if you were using like a fathead minnow or something. Maybe it's a combo? A tiny minnow, set really low like 6" off the bottom in the middle of a lake with few pike around such as crappie fishing, is not likely to catch many pike. Put a decent sucker on in a better area, set higher like 3 foot or 4 foot off the bottom, and you might start catching fish.

People around me get fish i use golden shiners the only one i ever got i was using straight braid before i ever switched to mason tip up line

20lb mono didn't get me bites and neither has steel

Also i noticed with fluro it can and will stretch more then mono but it takes a bit more force

[thomasthepikehunter]

It kind of sounds like you verified what I was thinking, and that's your leader/line has nothing to do with your problem. Depending of course on what braid you were using, it's just as visible, possibly more visible than a steel leader, and yet you got a fish on that. If 20 pound mono didn't help, no leader will. One guy on this forum apparently did see like a 4:1 ratio of pike on fluoro vs that big gawdy black steel wire, but he still caught fish on the wire. He also says he pretty much gets an even catch rate with the better steel leader, I think it was Surflon 7x7 which is the same I use. Maybe the clear lines get a few more bites, or don't scare the big, old, smart fish as much, but a steel leader isn't going to 100% stop all fish from biting. Especially if you are still getting walleye, bass, or whatever else you have around. Sometimes I get perch big enough to eat suckers, they bite steel leaders, and pike are generally less shy than those fish. If you aren't getting any bits at all, you are not in fish, simple as that. Maybe the people near you are just a little closer to the fish than you are. There's been plenty of times I've had one or two tip ups that were hot all day, and another that never gets bit with an identical setup. Maybe they are using better baits. I've seen it a ton of times, pike will seemingly swim through a bunch of tip ups and hit one with a certain bait. With a single exception of one caught on an artificial lure, every one of my biggest pike has come on the biggest bait I had out at the time. There is a practical limit, especially if you are just trying to catch numbers of pike. If you are fishing a lake or river stuffed full of 2" shiners and fatheads, and you are fishing with a 2" shiner, I've seen plenty of times where the pike will overlook them and go for the 6"+ sucker minnow. Pike will eat anything, and plenty of big ones get caught by people not even fishing for pike, but it is a very, very rare day pike will prefer the tiny baits over a bigger one.

So while you should keep trying that nylon monofilament, or fluorocarbon (I would recommend you go up though, 30# or 40# at least), you have something else going wrong with your setup. Your main tip up line shouldn't be a factor for the fish. Mason makes good line, I've used their dacron braid, I don't remember if I tried their coated line or not. Shiner size can vary so much, but generally what I've seen are pretty small, like 1" or 2" long. That's really pretty small bait for pike. Some guys have done good with them on hammerhandle lakes where pike rarely get over 22", but for most places, they aren't ideal. If there's any way you can get a sucker or creek chub at least 4" long try those. I don't know NY law, but if you can use frozen smelt, give those a try, they are usually good sized close to 8". With deadbait I've heard of people having success with bait right on the bottom, but I like my baits suspended. If I'm under 10 or 12 feet of water, I just cut the depth in half. If I'm in 10 foot for example, my bait is 5 foot under the ice, or 5 foot off the bottom. I've seen where a lot of say walleye fisherman tend to get baits super low, like 6" off the bottom, and in my experience that can dramatically reduce your hits. I am rarely below 3 foot off the bottom. I try things just for giggles sometimes, but the only time i would do it regularly is open water, not ice fishing.

As for the fluoro stretching, it's not really a factor. You can use fluroro or nylon mono for your leader, it makes no significant difference, both work.

[Esox fisherman]

Used pike minnows never had any luck any luck i had were on bass minnows (both were golden shiners 4-6" for bass (8-10" for pike is my guess)

I was using the silver steel leaders if that makes a difference

I have been right next to people before and will fish the same spot the next weekend & the same stuff goes on
Braddock bay(4' of water all around and weedy) set 1-2' below ice 3-5' of water at conesus (6-10' of water where i fish with weeds)

The 20lb mono didnt get a bite
 Are there any other reasons you can think of a fish consistantly won't bite for 1 person

[bootstrap]

snell some single hooks with seagar blue label fluoro 20 lb and you should be fine. you can get away with lighter line with a single hook as the hook sets are usually not as deep and in the center or sides rather than inner mouth.

[thomasthepikehunter]

Used pike minnows never had any luck any luck i had were on bass minnows (both were golden shiners 4-6" for bass (8-10" for pike is my guess)

I was using the silver steel leaders if that makes a difference

I have been right next to people before and will fish the same spot the next weekend & the same stuff goes on
Braddock bay(4' of water all around and weedy) set 1-2' below ice 3-5' of water at conesus (6-10' of water where i fish with weeds)

The 20lb mono didnt get a bite
 Are there any other reasons you can think of a fish consistantly won't bite for 1 person

Maybe you just smell bad?

I can't really say for sure, unless your group is only getting like 3-4 pike a day, in which case you are probably just unlucky. Especially in those shallow weedy bays, the bite there can be there and gone in a week or two, usually right at first ice. After the weeds start to die, a lot of fish tend to either go deeper, or just find better weeds. I don't know anything about lake Ontario, but Braddock bay looks like one of those bays that is great at first ice, and dead 2 weeks later. I'm assuming they come back in there to spawn in the spring too if you can go out then. If there is safe ice on the main lake, I would definitely get out of the bay.

[Esox fisherman]

Maybe you just smell bad?

I can't really say for sure, unless your group is only getting like 3-4 pike a day, in which case you are probably just unlucky. Especially in those shallow weedy bays, the bite there can be there and gone in a week or two, usually right at first ice. After the weeds start to die, a lot of fish tend to either go deeper, or just find better weeds. I don't know anything about lake Ontario, but Braddock bay looks like one of those bays that is great at first ice, and dead 2 weeks later. I'm assuming they come back in there to spawn in the spring too if you can go out then. If there is safe ice on the main lake, I would definitely get out of the bay.

I actually was working on that theory that i smell bad as other places i fish never get flags either

[SLAYERFISH]

The Visibility thing is real.  I had a friend show me the difference.  hang a jig down a ice hole with mono. hang a jig down a ice hole with floro. You can see the mono whereas you cannot see the floro.  It's real.

[thomasthepikehunter]

Here is a simple test anyone can do. It doesn't matter if you use a jar or the local swimming beach. Take some line, stick it in the water, and look at it. I'm sure some line shows up more than others. Obviously green or blue line will be easier to see than clear. The thicker the line, the easier it is to see. Different brands might be cloudier than others. The dirtier the water, the harder it is to see the lines.

Here's a picture to mull over. This is three lines I have laying around of comparable strength and from the same brand. One is Berkley Vanish Fluorocarbon 14 pound, one is Berkley Trilene XL 10 pound, and one is Berkley Big Game 15 pound. You tell me which is which. It's actually kind of hard to get a picture of clear lines with no background. It shows up pretty good using an olive oil bottle as a background. Obviously there's not a mile of difference between them.

[SLAYERFISH]

I Don't fish many lakes with olive oil in them.

[OldSailor]

I don't fish ANY lakes with olive oil in them!!!

[PikeKing23]

You guys are comparing apples to oranges. We're not talking about flouro vs mono in 15lb test range. - we're talking fouro vs steel for pike LEADER material (not mainline). Use that same test with 60 lb seagar blue label flouro leader material vs 20lb AFW seven strand steel leader material.  On my underwater camera I can easily see the flouro as a thick gray line.  While it is solid, the steel is so thin it is like thread in comparison.   

If you are comparing 20lb flouro to thick, store bought, pre-made, steel (shiny or coated black) with big snaps and swivels......that is a different story.  The flouro will get you more bites. But if you want to use 20lb flouro for pike fishing you will get your heart broke.  It may hold up ok to smaller hammer handles, but I've been bitten off all the way up to 50lb test flouro.  I would not recommend either of these options.

Tie your own leaders with seven strand steel and be done.  I don't know who said it first but "Steel is real!"  Just remember that not all steel is created equal.

[Papa Sly]

You guys are comparing apples to oranges. We're not talking about flouro vs mono in 15lb test range. - we're talking fouro vs steel for pike LEADER material (not mainline). Use that same test with 60 lb seagar blue label flouro leader material vs 20lb AFW seven strand steel leader material.  On my underwater camera I can easily see the flouro as a thick gray line.  While it is solid, the steel is so thin it is like thread in comparison.   

If you are comparing 20lb flouro to thick, store bought, pre-made, steel (shiny or coated black) with big snaps and swivels......that is a different story.  The flouro will get you more bites. But if you want to use 20lb flouro for pike fishing you will get your heart broke.  It may hold up ok to smaller hammer handles, but I've been bitten off all the way up to 50lb test flouro.  I would not recommend either of these options.

Tie your own leaders with seven strand steel and be done.  I don't know who said it first but "Steel is real!"  Just remember that not all steel is created equal.

It took me over 10  years to realize exactly  what Pike King is saying. I used to ONLY use Flouro and was up to 60# and any time I put the old school steel leaders Flouro out produced steel. This year in Tupper NY I went to 7 strand camo wire and will never go back. More flags with it and didnt lose 1 fish. I had a real hard time tying so I went back to crimping but by far the best alternative. I am even thinking to try for bass but need to figure out how to tie better first.

[thomasthepikehunter]

For sure, I think a lot of people get carried away with the whole clear thing when you get to those really thick lines you need for pike. I'm not going to say steel is the only answer. I've used both, I'm probably going back to 100% steel, but not everyone has to. There is a time and place for everything. I've said it before, when you get to those 50#, 60#, 80# leaders of mono of fluoro, they are super obvious. There's no hiding something that thick. Visibility wise it's not that horrible, but I'm sure fish can sense that it's there more than the thin steel with their lateral line. That's besides the fact those super thick lines dampen any lure or bait you are using. It's probably not as much of an issue with dead bait.

I'm not going to say someone shouldn't use fluorocarbon or nylon monofilament, or even the newer copolymer lines as leaders. I'm just trying to steer people to the best possible outcome with that. My experience has been pretty much the exact same as anyone who has tried them seriously, and that is 20-30 lb lines aren't enough for pike. 40-50 is marginal, I too got bite offs, but it's mostly acceptable. I've never been bitten off on 80# yet, but the stuff is super thick. I also have found no advantage to use fluorocarbon over nylon for leaders. People are free to disagree, but with my eyes, I can not find any appreciable difference in visibility. In every test I can find online, nylon has equaled, or bested fluorocarbon in abrasion testing. About the only thing fluorocarbon has going for it to me is that it is slightly thinner for the same strength rating than nylon line, but that is no concern to me using it as a pike leader. Also, I've yet to see any proof "leader material" is anything better than standard line. Those are just my experiences, and what I have found through research and testing. I would have taken a picture of thicker lines if I had comparable ones. I only have 30# mono, and 80# fluoro, nothing between. I'm not going to go out and buy 80# mono just to take a picture, you guys are perfectly capable of sticking a couple lines in a glass and looking at it yourself.

[thomasthepikehunter]

@Papa Sly, there is a learning curve to tying steel. Some knots just don't work well, they cause the ends to become curly. The best I have found is a basic Uni knot. The only real trick is after you tighten up the tag end, push the knot down with your fingers, don't just pull the line to slide it down. Sometimes it's a little back and forth, gently tighten the tag, then slide the knot down, then tighten tag more, and push knot some more. Once you figure it out, it's easy and you can knot leaders right on the spot anywhere. Crimps work fine, they just add bulk, but it's not horrible. If you ever want the most discrete, knot for lack of a better word, on a coated steel leader, the best I have found is a fusing technique from the book Pro Tactics: Northern Pike by Jack Penny. Basically you twist up the ends and use a candle to fuse the coating. It produces a fantastic leader, but it's kind of a PITA. It's definitely something you can only do at home, not in a boat or on ice. It wasn't worth it to me, I knot all my leaders now.

[grizzlyhackle]

I'm definitely in the AFW 7x7 over Fluoro camp:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EOK6HO/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?smid=AEROF1NMHJ09N&th=1

[missoulafish]

great conversation, thanks all for sharing the tips!

[thomasthepikehunter]

I should have said that I'm using coated steel. Specifically I currently use Surflon 7x7 camo color right now. In the past I've used Cortland Toothy Critter in green color, and it's very similar to Surflon. I don't know if Cortland got sold or what, but they no longer sell it in stores like they used to. Surflon 1x7 uncoated steel can work too, it's just as thin as 7x7, just a little stiffer, and with no coating it doesn't take normal knots. There's a member here that uses it with a special knot and does well. 1x7 is cheaper too, about half the price. I still like my 7x7 as it is super limp, kind of between braid and monofilament.

[PikeKing23]

Papa-try a figure 8 knot. Scary simple but it hasn't let me down yet. Doesn't seem strong but it holds surprising well. Especially with the 7 strand as you can cinch it down and it seems to "lock" in.

[Esox fisherman]

@Papa Sly, there is a learning curve to tying steel. Some knots just don't work well, they cause the ends to become curly. The best I have found is a basic Uni knot. The only real trick is after you tighten up the tag end, push the knot down with your fingers, don't just pull the line to slide it down. Sometimes it's a little back and forth, gently tighten the tag, then slide the knot down, then tighten tag more, and push knot some more. Once you figure it out, it's easy and you can knot leaders right on the spot anywhere. Crimps work fine, they just add bulk, but it's not horrible. If you ever want the most discrete, knot for lack of a better word, on a coated steel leader, the best I have found is a fusing technique from the book Pro Tactics: Northern Pike by Jack Penny. Basically you twist up the ends and use a candle to fuse the coating. It produces a fantastic leader, but it's kind of a PITA. It's definitely something you can only do at home, not in a boat or on ice. It wasn't worth it to me, I knot all my leaders now.

What color

[missoulafish]

WonderBread