Is a trophy from any other water, still a trophy? Does it still smell of fish?

[bubbagill]

I've got news for you.... a record fish almost always looks like a freak. If I snuck down to the bank where you were fishing on public water, unbeknownst to you, and released one of my trophy fish which swam down and hit your bait, you would be ecstatic, and have absolutely no clue that the giant fish you're holding wasn't native to that BOW. None at all.

That's my point...it's all mental, not tangible.

I understand what your trying to say.  I do.  I just ain't on board man.  To each their own.  I just feel once man is involved in the process to the point in which the original species is tainted it's game over for me.  Not the same fish at all its tainted.  If it were deer we were talking about is a 32 point deer born and raised on a ranch a trophy in comparison to a 10 point that was free to roam???  To me the 32 pointer is a man made oddity not even capable of representing the species.  To each their own.

[Musky50]

To me there is no comparison between fishing private and public waters. And no, I would not consider a trophy (whatever species) caught from a private pond to garner the same bragging rights as a trophy caught from public waters.

[sprkplug]

I understand what your trying to say.  I do.  I just ain't on board man.  To each their own.  I just feel once man is involved in the process to the point in which the original species is tainted it's game over for me.  Not the same fish at all its tainted.  If it were deer we were talking about is a 32 point deer born and raised on a ranch a trophy in comparison to a 10 point that was free to roam???  To me the 32 pointer is a man made oddity not even capable of representing the species.  To each their own.

The species is not tainted. My fish have absolutely no genetic alterations.....my native bluegills are the exact same Lepomis Macrochirus that swim in your waters.

[sprkplug]

To me there is no comparison between fishing private and public waters. And no, I would not consider a trophy (whatever species) caught from a private pond to garner the same bragging rights as a trophy caught from public waters.

Thanks musky..if you haven't already done so, you might read the entire thread. The difference between fishing a private pond vs. a private trophy pond is explained earlier on.

[sprkplug]

Assuming the fish from either BOW is equal, then IMO it is a greater accomplishment to catch a legit trophy from public waters than in a controlled pond, regardless of if you luck upon it or seek it out.  You give the lettuce as an example but again you are looking only at the end product which could have come from either farming method.  But you simply can not dismiss the 'running the gauntlet' argument for fish in public water vs those in a controlled bow even if the only control in place is preventing others from fishing for it.  Public waters have more disadvantages than private managed waters, some of which I mentioned above. 

Answer me this.  Does a gazelle or zerbra born and raised in the zoo have a better chance at survival to adulthood and possibly 'trophy' status than one living in the safari dealing with drought, allowed hunts and packs of lions looking to eat them daily vs. a balanced food diet, water and shelter from predators their entire life?



Here is another example.   Take 2 super bowl rings that are identical.  One was bought by someone with money that never played the game of football.  The other was earned with blood, sweat, broken bones, and risk of great bodily injury playing the game.  Both are trophies.  Both look identical.  Which one has more 'trophy status'?  The answer is not debatable. 

How the fish got to trophy size matters to some of us.  No one is arguing it is easy in a private or public BOW.  But if it gets there in a public BOW I hold it in much higher regard than one raised in controlled BOW that limits even 1 of the factors that are not limited on the public waters.

First, the idea of a gauntlet. In many cases, private waters are small, due to necessity. As such, they don't have near the ability to "bank" oxygen, like a larger, deeper BOW might. Because of this, they are much more prone to suffer from low O2 issues than lakes or reservoirs. Even if the fish don't perish during a summer or winter fishkill, they will become stressed....and stress results in weakened immune systems, which can eventually compromise the fish. Let alone the water temp issue...I regularly deal with 95 degree temps in the summer. No deep water refuge here. In addition, small, local ponds may deal with neighborhood runoff....all the lawn fertilizers in the subdivision, or the pasture runoffs from the alfalfa field next door. More stressors, with a much smaller volume of water present to absorb and dilute the product, when compared to a lake or res. I lose approx. 20% of my fish each year simply due to attrition. Do your natural lakes suffer that degree of loss?

Heavily managed trophy ponds operate off a simple principle....reducing the number of mouths to feed leads to bigger, but far fewer fish. In one of my ponds, largemouth bass are stocked at a ratio of 10 bluegills to one bass. Also, contrary to what some might claim, reducing, not improving, the quantity of weeds present in a BOW will help grow bigger bluegills. I need those bass to absolutely hammer those bluegill fry, as I do NOT want any recruitment from year to year....the way it works in a trophy pond, is the fewer fish present, the better. Some say the Amish are effective at decimating the bluegill population....they can't hold a candle to roaming wolfpacks of 8-12" largemouth bass and no weeds when it comes to bluegill devastation. The anglers are catching fish one at a time. Those bass are destroying entire schools of fry.

How many bluegills per surface acre show up in those surveys of public water? In my best pond, that number is less than 200 per acre. And of that limited amount, there might be ONE potential trophy. MIGHT be. Hasn't been in six years, but I'm still trying. A single female BG can lay over 20,000 eggs at a time. Only a handful survive to adulthood in my ponds

I can't speak to zebras or gazelles, but my bluegills that are intensively managed and fed a pelleted diet, have vastly shorter lifespans than non-managed bluegills. A fish's growth is indeterminate, meaning it will continue to grow it's entire life. A BG in those northern Indiana waters probably has 8-9 years to try and achieve trophy status. I have yet to raise one of mine over 6 years old. Just like holding your foot on the accelerator...the high protein feed simply burns them up. My fish miss a lot of growth potential that your fish are able to utilize. Does feeding make up the difference? That's the million dollar question for me right now.

Super bowl rings....yes, we agree that a trophy is a trophy, monetarily or physically. But in your example, the fellow buying the ring doesn't play football... Anyone here could "buy" a trophy mount from a taxidermist, and never get their hands wet. But in our trophy fish scenario, that fish, whether public or private, still has to achieve trophy status, and still needs to be caught by an angler. Not quite the same thing.

I think there is far too much weight being given to luck... whether public or private, THAT is the number one factor that produces a trophy. That same lucky angler, unless the angler knows for a fact that a trophy swims in the lake he's casting on, is also afforded greater mass than need be, in my opinion.

It's a trophy fish....not a trophy catch.  As I've stated earlier, a six year old can get lucky and make a record catch. Some have.

[stripernut]

If a trophy fish is a trophy fish, then if I raise a few fish in a big tank to trophy size, then drop a line in and pull one out, by what I understand you are trying to saying; I have caught a trophy! That will never be true for me and many others. Your ponds are in at least one way (closed to the public) artificial and the fish that come out of them are much like farm animals. I am glad that these ponds and fish bring you such much happiness, and like any good farmer you should be proud of the fish that you have raised. But for many of us, catching a farm raise fish (same is true for me with freshly stocked fish) is just not the same , I have done it, it is fun, but no matter it size, it is not the same as catching a fish from public waters.

[bubbagill]

Very well said.  I like the farm raised concept I agree

[sprkplug]

If a trophy fish is a trophy fish, then if I raise a few fish in a big tank to trophy size, then drop a line in and pull one out, by what I understand you are trying to saying; I have caught a trophy! That will never be true for me and many others. Your ponds are in at least one way (closed to the public) artificial and the fish that come out of them are much like farm animals. I am glad that these ponds and fish bring you such much happiness, and like any good farmer you should be proud of the fish that you have raised. But for many of us, catching a farm raise fish (same is true for me with freshly stocked fish) is just not the same , I have done it, it is fun, but no matter it size, it is not the same as catching a fish from public waters.

Thanks striper. What are your thoughts on this?

I posed the question to stripernut about having a formerly private pond suddenly become public, and whether a fish from that pond would now qualify as a trophy in his eyes. He indicated that it would. What about the reverse being the case? What if, hypothetically speaking, I was suddenly able to purchase one of those public lakes, and it becomes private. Would a fish caught the very next day qualify for trophy status? After all, it survived the "gauntlet" that wax and I talked about, for years....and it obviously didn't become a trophy in the 24 hours since I purchased the lake? The lake was public all that time, everyone had the chance to fish it.....trophy (record) status, or not?

[sprkplug]

If a trophy fish is a trophy fish, then if I raise a few fish in a big tank to trophy size, then drop a line in and pull one out, by what I understand you are trying to saying; I have caught a trophy! That will never be true for me and many others. Your ponds are in at least one way (closed to the public) artificial and the fish that come out of them are much like farm animals. I am glad that these ponds and fish bring you such much happiness, and like any good farmer you should be proud of the fish that you have raised. But for many of us, catching a farm raise fish (same is true for me with freshly stocked fish) is just not the same , I have done it, it is fun, but no matter it size, it is not the same as catching a fish from public waters.

Can you define the farm animal concept? To me, if I have a private pond that I do not manage in any way except for not allowing any fishing, how are the fish therein similar to farm animals? Farm animals are tended to, and these fish are not? What defines the farm? Size? How about deer hunting on private property,,,still able to kill a trophy buck that way? Why? because the deer is free to roam? How much space does a deer need to roam in, to be eligible for trophy status in your eyes, vs. a single bluegill in a one acre, unmanaged pond? Hey that's a good question.....does asking permission to hunt on private land still enable you to bag a "trophy" deer? Anyone?

[stripernut]

I posed the question to stripernut about having a formerly private pond suddenly become public, and whether a fish from that pond would now qualify as a trophy in his eyes. He indicated that it would. What about the reverse being the case? What if, hypothetically speaking, I was suddenly able to purchase one of those public lakes, and it becomes private. Would a fish caught the very next day qualify for trophy status? After all, it survived the "gauntlet" that wax and I talked about, for years....and it obviously didn't become a trophy in the 24 hours since I purchased the lake? The lake was public all that time, everyone had the chance to fish it.....trophy (record) status, or not?

Sounds like you are turning a public water into a farm...

Can you define the farm animal concept? To me, if I have a private pond that I do not manage in any way except for not allowing any fishing, how are the fish therein similar to farm animals?

Your pond is in at least one way (closed to the public) artificial...

does asking permission to hunt on private land still enable you to bag a "trophy" deer? Anyone?

Is the deer free to leave your property or is it a fenced in area, that is what makes the difference.

Sprkplug, for you, is a fish raised in a tank to trophy size a trophy?

[sprkplug]

Sounds like you are turning a public water into a farm... You didn't answer the question?

Your pond is in at least one way (closed to the public) artificial...

Is the deer free to leave your property or is it a fenced in area, that is what makes the difference. Say I have a 1000 acre farm, no fence. The buck could leave, but it never does...spends it's entire life on my 1000 acres.

Sprkplug, for you, is a fish raised in a tank to trophy size a trophy? It would be a trophy sized fish, yes.

[stripernut]

Sprkplug, for you, is a fish raised in a tank to trophy size a trophy? It would be a trophy sized fish, yes.

I think that this fish has been beaten enough... All the other questions are just splitting hairs... Myself and many others do not feel that catching a fish in a barrel, no matter it's size, makes it a trophy. For you it does, and that is OK. If you ever find yourself out my way, it would be my pleasure to take you to some of my waters, where some of those sunfish you are raising will make great bait! Tight Lines!

[sprkplug]

C'mon now stripe....just when I finally hit pay dirt and was about to close the net?? I feel robbed!

Appreciate the invite, but I don't fare well when I can't see land someplace! I would hate for our first meeting to include scenes of me heaving over the side. Thanks for taking time to debate, you take care out there!

[Stinkybaits]

Sparky there always needs to be chummers along on the boat. It works great!

[sprkplug]

I get queasy just from looking at Striper's photo.

[wax_worm]

First, the idea of a gauntlet. In many cases, private waters are small, due to necessity. As such, they don't have near the ability to "bank" oxygen, like a larger, deeper BOW might. Because of this, they are much more prone to suffer from low O2 issues than lakes or reservoirs. Even if the fish don't perish during a summer or winter fishkill, they will become stressed....and stress results in weakened immune systems, which can eventually compromise the fish. Let alone the water temp issue...I regularly deal with 95 degree temps in the summer. No deep water refuge here. In addition, small, local ponds may deal with neighborhood runoff....all the lawn fertilizers in the subdivision, or the pasture runoffs from the alfalfa field next door. More stressors, with a much smaller volume of water present to absorb and dilute the product, when compared to a lake or res. I lose approx. 20% of my fish each year simply due to attrition. Do your natural lakes suffer that degree of loss?

Heavily managed trophy ponds operate off a simple principle....reducing the number of mouths to feed leads to bigger, but far fewer fish. In one of my ponds, largemouth bass are stocked at a ratio of 10 bluegills to one bass. Also, contrary to what some might claim, reducing, not improving, the quantity of weeds present in a BOW will help grow bigger bluegills. I need those bass to absolutely hammer those bluegill fry, as I do NOT want any recruitment from year to year....the way it works in a trophy pond, is the fewer fish present, the better. Some say the Amish are effective at decimating the bluegill population....they can't hold a candle to roaming wolfpacks of 8-12" largemouth bass and no weeds when it comes to bluegill devastation. The anglers are catching fish one at a time. Those bass are destroying entire schools of fry.

How many bluegills per surface acre show up in those surveys of public water? In my best pond, that number is less than 200 per acre. And of that limited amount, there might be ONE potential trophy. MIGHT be. Hasn't been in six years, but I'm still trying. A single female BG can lay over 20,000 eggs at a time. Only a handful survive to adulthood in my ponds

I can't speak to zebras or gazelles, but my bluegills that are intensively managed and fed a pelleted diet, have vastly shorter lifespans than non-managed bluegills. A fish's growth is indeterminate, meaning it will continue to grow it's entire life. A BG in those northern Indiana waters probably has 8-9 years to try and achieve trophy status. I have yet to raise one of mine over 6 years old. Just like holding your foot on the accelerator...the high protein feed simply burns them up. My fish miss a lot of growth potential that your fish are able to utilize. Does feeding make up the difference? That's the million dollar question for me right now.

Super bowl rings....yes, we agree that a trophy is a trophy, monetarily or physically. But in your example, the fellow buying the ring doesn't play football... Anyone here could "buy" a trophy mount from a taxidermist, and never get their hands wet. But in our trophy fish scenario, that fish, whether public or private, still has to achieve trophy status, and still needs to be caught by an angler. Not quite the same thing.

I think there is far too much weight being given to luck... whether public or private, THAT is the number one factor that produces a trophy. That same lucky angler, unless the angler knows for a fact that a trophy swims in the lake he's casting on, is also afforded greater mass than need be, in my opinion.

It's a trophy fish....not a trophy catch.  As I've stated earlier, a six year old can get lucky and make a record catch. Some have.

Nearly all the stressors you mention in your ponds are present in the lakes too.  You may not have depth but you do control the numbers in your ponds and less fish means more oxygen for them even at low levels.  the O2 levels in smaller ponds can be increased with various forms of aeration also (some of which you have to be careful using in the winter). I am not saying your fish aren't stressed, but public water fish are stressed too with things your ponds don't have like boat traffic, swimmers, gas, oil, sewage, weed killers, catch and release, etc.  There is no way to tell what % of fish are lost in lake each year due to die off.  I doubt it is 20% but it could be.

I think you are arguing what is a trophy fish when most here are arguing what is a trophy catch.  I don't think anyone is arguing that a gill well over a lb is a trophy fish no matter if it is from a pond or lake.  However,  if that catch is made from a controlled environment like a private pond vs a public BOW, that is where the disagreement is.

If your pond has 200 gills and 1 is a trophy you have a 1/200 chance to catch that fish.

If a public BOW has 40,000 gills and 40 are a trophy your chance is 1/1,000.  Your odds only increase as some of the 39,960 non trophies are removed but they will never be as good as they are in your pond.  It doesn't matter how many anglers fish the lake, the odds are the same for everyone each cast with the only thing changing those odds are when non trophy fish are kept.  In this example the odds of the pond fisherman are 5 times better than the lake fisherman to catch trophy, due to the fact it is a controlled environment.

Raising trophy fish is hard.  If it weren't every record in the books would be impossible to touch in public waters.  Most lakes have no shot at harboring a 'trophy' by your definition and very few have been successful in doing it in private waters.

[sprkplug]

I think you are arguing what is a trophy fish when most here are arguing what is a trophy catch.

Exactly. the emphasis is on the fish, not the catch. The trophy designation is awarded by the state to the fish itself...not the angler. The angler is recognized, but the fish itself is the focal point. The state is acknowledging what it takes for a fish, any fish from any BOW, to achieve trophy status. Artificial feeding is a no-no, but everything else is acceptable in the state's eyes.

Unless the angler has prior knowledge of a trophy fish's location, the element of luck cannot be eliminated from the equation of his/her catch. And no, you cannot place a fish into a tank, (or barrel) feed it, and grow it to trophy status. Doesn't work that way.

Your take here, wax?

How about deer hunting on private property,,,still able to kill a trophy buck that way? Why? because the deer is free to roam? How much space does a deer need to roam in, to be eligible for trophy status in your eyes, vs. a single bluegill in a one acre, unmanaged pond? Hey that's a good question.....does asking permission to hunt on private land still enable you to bag a "trophy" deer? Anyone?

[wax_worm]

Exactly. the emphasis is on the fish, not the catch. The trophy designation is awarded by the state to the fish itself...not the angler. The angler is recognized, but the fish itself is the focal point. The state is acknowledging what it takes for a fish, any fish from any BOW, to achieve trophy status. Artificial feeding is a no-no, but everything else is acceptable in the state's eyes.

Unless the angler has prior knowledge of a trophy fish's location, the element of luck cannot be eliminated from the equation of his/her catch. And no, you cannot place a fish into a tank, (or barrel) feed it, and grow it to trophy status. Doesn't work that way.

Your take here, wax?

How about deer hunting on private property,,,still able to kill a trophy buck that way? Why? because the deer is free to roam? How much space does a deer need to roam in, to be eligible for trophy status in your eyes, vs. a single bluegill in a one acre, unmanaged pond? Hey that's a good question.....does asking permission to hunt on private land still enable you to bag a "trophy" deer? Anyone?

I don't hunt, but in general I don't think a deer  that is specifically bred, raised, fed with special food plots and suppliments and kept in a confined area (even if 100's of acres) should be regarded nearly as highly as someone bagging a similiar or slightlly smaller deer off of public property.  I know alot of hunters are against canned hunts, because they tend to yeild animals that are not achievable on 'public' or 'private, unmanged' land.   Canned hunts are a souce of income for those that have the land and the desire to create the scenerio.  As long as people will pay big dollars to shoot these animals that raised to be shot, they will exist, I just don't think the deer from those hunts should be recognized as a 'record.  I have no doubt those that take deer from canned hunts consider them trophies, but they should have an * beside them in any record book.

[sprkplug]

I agree on the fenced deer hunts, the same way I agree on not allowing fish that are on a feeding program to be eligible for trophy status. I don't chase deer myself, but find the similarities between trophy deer and trophy fish helpful to this discussion. I'm sure there are many active hunters here on the shanty, including some who pursue trophy bucks. I wonder if they consider it acceptable to call their deer a trophy, when they killed it off private land? or, must the animal be taken at a state park, Atterbury, etc,  in order to meet their description of what constitutes a trophy?

To further refine the issue, I know many deer hunters/property owners who plant food plots, and /or utilize deer feeders. Where does this fit into the trophy designation? To borrow a term used previously to describe my fish, hasn't the introduction of said food plot "tainted" that buck? After all, it has been influenced by the hand of man...the odds have been improved in favor of the hunter. I think most deer hunters would point out that the deer is free to move about, and leave my property. And that is correct. But, to go back to my previous example, if I own a large enough parcel of land, that big buck could theoretically live out it's entire existence within the boundaries of my own, private property, even without the physical restraint of a high fence. And even if we leave off the deer feeder, there's still the idea of a food plot....not artificial, just natural, desirable forage, designed to entice that big buck to stay put. No chemicals, hormones, genetic improvements, or fences.....still a trophy?

I'm sure the sticking point is the deer's ability to leave my property, should it desire. Okay, I live less than a half mile from the White river. The overflow from my pond flows through the dam, across the neighbor's property where, after 40 or so years it has cut a small branch, flows into a small, un-named creek, through a culvert under the highway, and empties into the river. And the lake is fed from runoff from 5 other ponds, and has a substantial watershed....water runs out of that spillpipe nearly all the time. So that's a pond that sees no management whatsoever, no feeding or improvements, and the fish have the ability to leave and enter public water. Truth be told, all ponds discharge water at times, and much of it ends up in public waterways.

When I compare that scenario to the deer example, I feel that either many of the hunters who bag "trophy" deer need to rethink their assessment of what makes a trophy, or be willing to acknowledge that the fish from one of my ponds are just as eligible for trophy status (by their own definition) as that deer.