Is a trophy from any other water, still a trophy? Does it still smell of fish?

[sprkplug]

Stripernut you hit the nail on the head.  I agree it's not all about the fish.  Ok you walk our 15 yards onto the ponds honey hole drill a hole sit down catch a trophy.  Or do you spend years learning a lake and spend countless days walking all over Hells half acre in pursuit of the trophy that you believe resides in this lake?  I know which one in my mind took more skill, drive, and pursuit.  Just not the same.  Not even apples to oranges let alone apples to apples.

I think you and I have vastly differing opinions as to what constitutes a trophy bluegill, bubbaG!

[bubbagill]

I think you and I have vastly differing opinions as to what constitutes a trophy bluegill, bubbaG!

Maybe maybe not.  It is a matter of personal opinion.   What's a trophy to you from Northern Indiana?   I personally would love to have a 10 and 3/8 or above gill on my wall.

[sprkplug]

I prefer to use weights, but if we're talking length than a 10" is a good fish, an 11" is a memorable fish, and a 12" or over would be a trophy.

[spring bobber]

I think I see. If I'm understanding you correctly, it's not a physical, tangible element ( you acknowledge that the physical size of the fish is the same, irregardless of it's origin). Rather it's a mental issue...as an angler, you want to be the one to catch a fish that the fellow standing next to you didn't? I get that, but the first thought that pops into me head is....why does that matter? Where is the skill, or the bragging point, at being angler # 326 who happened to be in the right place at the right time, and caught a trophy or record fish? As I stated before, I believe a great many record fish are caught by accident..we've all seen photos of little kids with Snoopy poles holding gigantic fish, right?

I can state with absolute certainty that the Indiana record bluegill was caught by accident...I interviewed the angler who caught it. he stepped out of the vehicle, walked down to the water's edge, and made one cast with a cricket and a bobber. Bam...fish on. ONE cast. His exact words to me? "It was sheer, dumb luck" Public water, caught in 1972, accidentally.

As far as a level playing field, if you decide to spend the day pursuing big fish (of any species), do you stop at the first public BOW you come across, or do you head to another, particular, public lake where you know that species runs larger than "average"? Maybe you have knowledge that other anglers do not, in this regard? The playing field is already unlevel, as you have tipped the scales in your favor by choosing a location known by you to have bigger fish.

I know what some are probably thinking...."I put the time in, did my research, spent my gas money, and drilled a lot of holes to find that spot.... I earned it myself" Yes you did, and in doing so you have increased your chances when compared to other anglers who haven't done what you did. Unlevel playing field. Once on your spot, do you post photos and locations here on the shanty, in order to allow other public water anglers the same opportunity to catch those bigger fish? No? Too many lurkers, afraid of some trashing the ice, catching those fish, loosing your parking spot? Not announcing every single detail to the general public keeps the odds in your favor.

Guys, managing a private pond is the same thing. It's a way to try and increase your chances. The question becomes, what is acceptable, and what is not? For every minute of research a public water angler puts in, I can match it with time, effort, and $$$ of my own, in a private pond.

Remembering also, that an angler has to KNOW somehow that a trophy fish swims in a particular BOW, in order for his or her skill to even enter into the picture. Accidental trophy catches, while enjoyable, do not necessarily reflect skill, drive, or pursuit. Targeted individuals, are another story.

I think there is a discrepancy in that most people go out just to fish and maybe have a small hope that they might catch a trophy fish as opposed to going out with the sole purpose to catch a trophy fish. For example, when I go bass fishing, I am fishing for fun or competition more than likely, not necessarily to catch a giant fish. If I was the whole approach would be different.  Needless to say, if I caught a giant, out of any body of water, I feel like it would still have the same merit to me personally. But if I were really trying for trophy fish, I wouldn't be fishing around here. For walleye I would go to erie or Winnepeg. For smallies I would go to Sturgeon Bay in the spring, or Buffalo (Erie) etc.

People are also saying that fishing out of a pond is super easy and that may be true, but that doesn't mean those fish are big/trophy caliber. More than likely, if they are biting that good, they aren't eating enough on a normal basis, thus meeting that upper echelon of fish. Then there is the management of the private body of water, using selective harvest, etc. to keep from overpopulation thus applying some fishing pressure to the body of water. This pressure is felt more than likely on a greater magnitude as well. Fishing your pond everyday for a week as opposed to fishing Wawasee for the same amount of time is negligible "pressure" on Wawa compared to your pond.

I also think that in this argument, that people are confusing "success" on ponds/private versus public with ease of catching (quantity). I think Sparkplug is saying that it takes a special body of water regardless of private or public to produce that caliber of fish and then takes a particular skill set as opposed to just happening upon a fish, to have catching trophy fish as your main goal when you go fishing as opposed to catching 25 8-9" gills or something.

[High Tide]

Thanks HT, could you elaborate on what constitutes a controlled environment?

Let's say a fella digs a pond one quarter of an acre, 23 feet deep under a willow tree, in an area with a nice population of earth worms. He builds a net above it to keep the bird out of it, and sprays for weeds. He decides to never make a cast for 5 years. After 5 years and one day, he goes out to catch this bluegill that may be at life's end and wouldn't you know... It's still alive! State record size to boot! Did he feed that fish, no... Did he control the environmental, yes... Does he deserve his name in the record book? Not in my opinion. This is an extreme, and I see where you're coming from, but the more control a fella has on the environment the more likely it's going to be that he catches a trophy. Also, in an uncontrolled environment, who catches more trophies in a lifetime the guy getting lucky or a guy who worked at his craft?

[sprkplug]

Thanks Springbobber, you nailed it perfectly!

Tide, I think we may be on the same page. Control of the environment is certainly conducive to MAYBE producing a trophy fish, but it's still a long way from an iron-clad guarantee. The DNR sprays for weeds, conducts creel surveys, applies rotenone when necessary, and imposes limits....all types of management, and environmental control, conducted on public water, in the hopes of providing a certain benefit....possibly even improving the fish population/size structure.

As far as catching more trophies, as I think about it I'm not sure if "more" has even entered my mind? What I mean is, if I'm catching trophy fish in aggregate, I may need to raise the bar? A trophy, to me at least, is not something encountered very often. But I totally agree that if multiple trophies is the goal, then skill absolutely comes into play.

[bullgill]

Dumb?

Okay, the state of Indiana mandates that in order to be eligible for record fish status, fish that are on a feeding program are ineligible. HOWEVER....fish taken on private water are absolutely eligible. So there you go? Restricted access to the fish does NOT take away from the size of the fish, in the state's eyes?

Yes Dumb, the question is about a trophy, not a state record.  I agreed with you, I said a tropy is a trophy, reguardless of where it came from.  I think everyones opinion of a "trophy" will always vary and really it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks.  State records on the other hand is a whole nother subject, but that should be debated in another thread.

[sprkplug]

Yes Dumb, the question is about a trophy, not a state record.  I agreed with you, I said a tropy is a trophy, reguardless of where it came from.  I think everyones opinion of a "trophy" will always vary and really it doesnt matter what anyone else thinks.  State records on the other hand is a whole nother subject, but that should be debated in another thread.

Possibly, but a state record would most likely qualify as a trophy automatically, while a trophy doesn't indicate state record status. And the point of my response was to illustrate that the state, doesn't bother with the asterisk...they make no distinction between private or public water fish, where record (trophy?) status is concerned.

[stripernut]

If I am comparing the fish that I catch (a trophy fish) to what other anglers have caught, then it can only be a fair comparison if all the other anglers have the same opportunity to catch that fish. Hence a fish from a closed to the public  BOW (Private), can not be compared... That seem very tangible to me.

I know what some are probably thinking...."I put the time in, did my research, spent my gas money, and drilled a lot of holes to find that spot.... I earned it myself" Yes you did, and in doing so you have increased your chances when compared to other anglers who haven't done what you did. Unlevel playing field.

Other anglers can put the same time and effort in that I do. It is up to them if they are willing or not, but private waters is not something they can choose, that is closed to them... That is the difference.

Once on your spot, do you post photos and locations here on the shanty, in order to allow other public water anglers the same opportunity to catch those bigger fish? No? Too many lurkers, afraid of some trashing the ice, catching those fish, loosing your parking spot? Not announcing every single detail to the general public keeps the odds in your favor.

Yes, most of the time I do say where I have caught my fish  and invite them to come fish with me to show them how I have done it... If it is a spot that I have worked at to find, I am willing to share, if it is a spot that some one else has shared with me, then it is not "mine" to share. You can go back through my posts and find some good spots if you would like... On the salt I have many times given out waypoints to spots I have done well on, I don't mind sharing...

[sprkplug]

Stripernut, am I reading you correctly in assuming that from your perspective it's not the fish that makes the trophy, as much as it is the fact you caught it instead of the other anglers? You value the competition factor more than the fish itself, where the definition of trophy is concerned?

So if I invite you and a couple of your friends over to fish one of my ponds, and you catch a trophy fish, is it now a trophy in your eyes because others were there, fishing along with you?

Little unusual here on the Hoosier board to see one so willing to divulge hard water locations..nice effort on your part.

[stripernut]

Stripernut, am I reading you correctly in assuming that from your perspective it's not the fish that makes the trophy, as much as it is the fact you caught it instead of the other anglers? You value the competition factor more than the fish itself, where the definition of trophy is concerned?

No, it is a trophy in comparison to what other anglers (the public) have caught. If it is just fish size, then from that point of view a "trophy" grown in a fish tank and pulled out is the same... Not to me.

So if I invite you and a couple of your friends over to fish one of my ponds, and you catch a trophy fish, is it now a trophy in your eyes because others were there, fishing along with you?

No, a few friends does not make public water...

[sprkplug]

Alright, today my pond is private. Tomorrow, I open it to the public. Anyone and Everyone. You and some friends come a couple weeks from tomorrow, and the previously stated example occurs.....is the fish a trophy now?

[stripernut]

If the waters are open to the public and any one has the same chance of getting a fish, then yes, a fish could be a trophy. The water may be highly "managed", but if all are able to fish it, then field is even... The state may have a different view, but to me and many others it is about a even playing field.

[sprkplug]

Okay, so the fish is not a trophy one day, then the next day the same fish could be, just by virtue of being able to be caught by the general public. That's confusing to me as I recognize just how rare and elusive trophy fish are, irregardless of their surroundings, public or private. Indiana recognizes that a fish can be a record, or trophy, no matter where it calls home, as long as it's not on an artificial feeding program....private pond, or public lake. It's the same fish, and I believe it's the fish that is being recognized, not so much the angler who caught it. I realize that's not the case in MA, however.

Thanks for your input!

[walleyepac]

A trophy is a trophy,whether you catch it in public water or private,if we take the fishing out of a barrel eqasion out of it, then the question comes- do I mount this fish, because every time I look at that fish, I'll be reminded of where I caught it , so you have to ask yourself if this fish is worth mounting, I'm sure opinions are going to vary here, I seen an impressive 16" perch mounted, and after I found out it was pond fed it just wasn't as impressive anymore, don't get me wrong,it was still impressive but just not the same, all that being said ,a trophy will always be a trophy, you just have to decide where your line is as to whether or not you want to mount it

[Stinkybaits]

Alright, today my pond is private. Tomorrow, I open it to the public. Anyone and Everyone. You and some friends come a couple weeks from tomorrow, and the previously stated example occurs.....is the fish a trophy now?

I'd say if your raising fish the size of the mutants in Richmond Mill Lake then it's a trophy. They also raise trophy bucks on ranches too. In the wild is totally different that breeding for toads. So sure trophies can be raised but it's still raised like all the rest of the trophies raised for mounts or caged hunts. Still not a challenge imo. Here's a couple of the Mills trophy pics. If you have those Spark sign me up! 

[sprkplug]

A trophy is a trophy,whether you catch it in public water or private,if we take the fishing out of a barrel eqasion out of it, then the question comes- do I mount this fish, because every time I look at that fish, I'll be reminded of where I caught it , so you have to ask yourself if this fish is worth mounting, I'm sure opinions are going to vary here, I seen an impressive 16" perch mounted, and after I found out it was pond fed it just wasn't as impressive anymore, don't get me wrong,it was still impressive but just not the same, all that being said ,a trophy will always be a trophy, you just have to decide where your line is as to whether or not you want to mount it

I think you raise some good points,  I appreciate the insight. That 16" perch you saw.....was there just the one? Chances are, it wasn't the only perch in that pond so why wasn't the wall covered with pellet-fed, 16" perch? Not jumping on you, just using your example to illustrate that feeding, does not a trophy make. There are a multitude of factors involved, some not completely understood, especially by me.

Public or private, true trophies are rare examples of when everything goes just right....and that don't happen very often.

[sprkplug]

Stinky, if I ever produce anything like that you'll know....you'll be able to hear the shouts all the way up where you are!

The fellow holding those fish is a good friend of both myself, and Taxi1. Dr. Bruce Condello, Nebraska dentist, and friend to fish everywhere. He does hold a soft spot in his heart for big bluegills, however.

 I would not be where I'm at today, had it not been for his collaboration with Taxi on raising big bluegills.

[Stinkybaits]

I vote for him to be the new state biologist! Heck make him the governor too do he gets both their pay lol! I can make a meal off a couple of those no problem!

[river_scum]

agreed, no comparison between private and public waters.  i dont think private water fish should be eligible for state records either. opinion comes from fishing a lot of both for 40 yrs.  the difference is clear as shine.

[sprkplug]

Appreciate the opinion river_scum!

[wax_worm]

I understand what you are saying sprkplg, that public or private growing a trophy is not easy.  I think the point most are trying to make is in private BOW at a minimum you are controlling one very important factor in growing large fish.  You can limit who fishes, how often they fish and even what they fish with if desired and if they keep any.  All that is not controlled (other than the dnr regs) on a public bow.  So if you leave out the part about the size of the fish is the same from either spot, which fish if caught by luck or by extraordinary efforts by the angler has 'run the gauntlet' more in its life to reach trophy size?  A public BOW may have many types of predator fish that a pond does not. It has dozens to hundreds of boats and PWCs spilling gas and oil into the lake. tearing up cover, and disrupting the food chain.  It may have septic overflow or lawn chemicals running in it.  It could have exotic weeds or gobies or zebra mussels or other things introduced by boats coming from other lakes that a private pond can avoid, but these items alter the ecosystem in a lake.  And the biggest factor is the 100's of man hours of fishing time on those public lakes where that trophy fish has avoided being caught.  You don't have lines of amish in boats looking to rape every single bedding fish they can see off the beds in your ponds.  In a public BOW up here, we do from Memorial day til about the third week in June.  To reach trophy status how many bedding seasons in a public BOW would that fish had to survive? 

A trophy is a trophy for many reasons which are different to many people.  I just don't think 'records' kept by the state or otherwise should include fish from waters the public does not have access to even if no pellet feeding is going on.  It is not a level playing field at that point. 

[sprkplug]

I get you wax, but I'm not willing to assign the same significance to "running the public gauntlet" as you do? It is an area that I hadn't considered before, so maybe I should give it more thought. But my initial response, is one of... "so what"?

What I mean to ask is, how does the fact that the fish has run that public gauntlet we're talking about, somehow make it more desirable and acceptable in the eyes of an angler? Maybe it's because of my close interaction with growing fish, but I look at a fish like I do a head of lettuce. Bear with me here....

If I go to a public grocery store to purchase a head of lettuce, and I sort through the bin and find the biggest, freshest, best head of lettuce i can find, I'm basing my decision on the appearance of the lettuce....not the fact that it survived a plague of cutworms while out in the field, or narrowly escaped being stricken down by bottom rot, or even avoided being harvested too soon. The fact that it may have negotiated all those obstacles just so I might pluck it from the public produce rack, doesn't make the lettuce any more worthy in my eyes? If I hadn't grabbed it, the lady coming up behind me would have. There was no skill on my part, just like there was no skill on the lettuce's part....it did what lettuce, and fish, do.....it survived. For all I know, that head of lettuce was grown in a disease free, pest free environment. But that takes nothing away from the physical attributes of the lettuce.

I do believe that fish have the capacity for rudimentary learning, although I don't expect my bluegills will be solving the cold fusion conundrum anytime soon. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that unlike that head of lettuce, a fish may become conditioned to certain baits and learn(?) how to avoid such. But, the idea that a public water fish having run the gauntlet while still achieving trophy status, somehow indicates a worthiness, or extra ability on the part of the fish itself, doesn't fly in my book. The fish wasn't gifted in some manner....it was probably lucky. And catching that fish doesn't automatically impart some type of greatness upon the angler, in my opinion.

[bubbagill]

Was the lettuce sprayed with chemicals, genetically modified,  raised in a controlled environment,  fed the best chemicals and weed and pest control available?   Probably so.  Apples to oranges man.  I will agree with you on one thing, and that is that we don't agree lol. 

[sprkplug]

Was the lettuce sprayed with chemicals, genetically modified,  raised in a controlled environment,  fed the best chemicals and weed and pest control available?   Probably so.  Apples to oranges man.  I will agree with you on one thing, and that is that we don't agree lol.

Would you recognize that it had been, just from looking at it???

[walleyepac]

One thing I will give you (plug) ,not everyone manages their ponds the same, from what I'm reading(your responses) you,taxi 1, and a few others spend the extra money,time and research it takes to manage your ponds , probably head n shoulders above the avg Joe most people stock the recommended species per acre,throw some flathead in a couple times a yrs, maybe pellet feed a couple times a week in the summer etc, but you obviously go way beyond that, and that's great, many people can gain a lot of knowledge and benefits from your experience, but I don't think you're willing to back off of your point, I don't believe you can compare private vs.public,it's not the same, I do like the discussion and would love to meet you and gain insight on pond management ,(I help a  lot of people with pond stocking) especially fatheads

[bubbagill]

Would you recognize that it had been, just from looking at it???

If it looked like a freak mutant compared to the other heads in the bin I sure would assume something is wrong. 

[sprkplug]

Thanks pac. And you're right, I won't back off on my stance on the issue. And I'm not here to insist that my fish be allowed to compete for record fish status, just to try and get a feel for the mindset that claims a difference exists between a trophy fish from public, vs. private waters. And I have learned a few things, so I'm glad I posed the question, and received so many responses.

I think we're at the point that we recognize that from a tangible, physical standpoint, there is no difference. If I carried a trophy fish from one of my ponds into the DNR, they would accept it on the spot, provided it was not on a feeding program....the reason this is so, is because they are recognizing the fish itself, not so much the angler who caught it. I believe this is where many on the forum differ, in that they tend to place at least some emphasis on the achievement of the angler him/herself. And I'm not saying that's wrong, only that in my opinion a record fish is just that....a record fish, not a record catch.

I posed the question to stripernut about having a formerly private pond suddenly become public, and whether a fish from that pond would now qualify as a trophy in his eyes. He indicated that it would. What about the reverse being the case? What if, hypothetically speaking, I was suddenly able to purchase one of those public lakes, and it becomes private. Would a fish caught the very next day qualify for trophy status? After all, it survived the "gauntlet" that wax and I talked about, for years....and it obviously didn't become a trophy in the 24 hours since I purchased the lake? The lake was public all that time, everyone had the chance to fish it.....trophy (record) status, or not?

It's a mental thing guys, not the fish itself.

[sprkplug]

If it looked like a freak mutant compared to the other heads in the bin I sure would assume something is wrong.

I've got news for you.... a record fish almost always looks like a freak. If I snuck down to the bank where you were fishing on public water, unbeknownst to you, and released one of my trophy fish which swam down and hit your bait, you would be ecstatic, and have absolutely no clue that the giant fish you're holding wasn't native to that BOW. None at all.

That's my point...it's all mental, not tangible.

[wax_worm]

I get you wax, but I'm not willing to assign the same significance to "running the public gauntlet" as you do? It is an area that I hadn't considered before, so maybe I should give it more thought. But my initial response, is one of... "so what"?

What I mean to ask is, how does the fact that the fish has run that public gauntlet we're talking about, somehow make it more desirable and acceptable in the eyes of an angler? Maybe it's because of my close interaction with growing fish, but I look at a fish like I do a head of lettuce. Bear with me here....

If I go to a public grocery store to purchase a head of lettuce, and I sort through the bin and find the biggest, freshest, best head of lettuce i can find, I'm basing my decision on the appearance of the lettuce....not the fact that it survived a plague of cutworms while out in the field, or narrowly escaped being stricken down by bottom rot, or even avoided being harvested too soon. The fact that it may have negotiated all those obstacles just so I might pluck it from the public produce rack, doesn't make the lettuce any more worthy in my eyes? If I hadn't grabbed it, the lady coming up behind me would have. There was no skill on my part, just like there was no skill on the lettuce's part....it did what lettuce, and fish, do.....it survived. For all I know, that head of lettuce was grown in a disease free, pest free environment. But that takes nothing away from the physical attributes of the lettuce.

I do believe that fish have the capacity for rudimentary learning, although I don't expect my bluegills will be solving the cold fusion conundrum anytime soon. Nevertheless, I acknowledge that unlike that head of lettuce, a fish may become conditioned to certain baits and learn(?) how to avoid such. But, the idea that a public water fish having run the gauntlet while still achieving trophy status, somehow indicates a worthiness, or extra ability on the part of the fish itself, doesn't fly in my book. The fish wasn't gifted in some manner....it was probably lucky. And catching that fish doesn't automatically impart some type of greatness upon the angler, in my opinion.

Assuming the fish from either BOW is equal, then IMO it is a greater accomplishment to catch a legit trophy from public waters than in a controlled pond, regardless of if you luck upon it or seek it out.  You give the lettuce as an example but again you are looking only at the end product which could have come from either farming method.  But you simply can not dismiss the 'running the gauntlet' argument for fish in public water vs those in a controlled bow even if the only control in place is preventing others from fishing for it.  Public waters have more disadvantages than private managed waters, some of which I mentioned above. 

Answer me this.  Does a gazelle or zerbra born and raised in the zoo have a better chance at survival to adulthood and possibly 'trophy' status than one living in the safari dealing with drought, allowed hunts and packs of lions looking to eat them daily vs. a balanced food diet, water and shelter from predators their entire life?

Here is another example.   Take 2 super bowl rings that are identical.  One was bought by someone with money that never played the game of football.  The other was earned with blood, sweat, broken bones, and risk of great bodily injury playing the game.  Both are trophies.  Both look identical.  Which one has more 'trophy status'?  The answer is not debatable. 

How the fish got to trophy size matters to some of us.  No one is arguing it is easy in a private or public BOW.  But if it gets there in a public BOW I hold it in much higher regard than one raised in controlled BOW that limits even 1 of the factors that are not limited on the public waters.