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Indiana => Ice Fishing Indiana => Topic started by: TeacherPreacher on Jan 03, 2014, 02:55 PM

Title: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: TeacherPreacher on Jan 03, 2014, 02:55 PM
Got some info from a guy today about DNR proposals for coming year.
Hunting on F&W Area for small game, rabbits . squirrel: Change hunting hours to 9:00am til 4:00pm

Fishing, walleye size limit to 16" statewide.
3 hooks per line

********!!!!!!
Daily limit for sunfish statewide in aggregate, crappie, bluegill, warmouth bass, redear, green sunfish-  to 25 !!!
Michigan has had this for several years.
Don't know how accurate this is--- anyone else heard this????
Your Thoughts?
Teach

This is what he sent me:

Indiana DNR is at it again and much of it is not good. if you are a squirrel hunter you can about foget hunting them. they want to restrict small game hunting to 9 am to 4 pm. most all squirrel hunting is done during the hours they are wanting to close it. Rabbit hunting is very active in the early hours also. DNR closed our October Rabbit season in favor of giving us til Feb. 28 of each year. Now they want to take back the Feb. season on state land and close it on Jan.31 of each year.  Also, now that Rob Carter ( avid catfishing fan ) is gone they are again wanting to  limit the number of larger Catfish kept to 1 per day.  Plenty of other changes on the list below. folks if you like your sport now is the time to speak up and save it.





Indiana Division of Fish and Wildlife Issues:

WILDLIFE

1. River Otters: Establish a trapping season in designated counties with a bag limit per trapper per season with a mandatory check-in requirement
2. Wild Turkeys: Make firearm portion of fall turkey season up North (Dekalb, LaGrange, LaPorte, Marshall, St. Joseph, Starke, and Steuben counties) the same length as Southern counties;
- Require hunter orange for fall turkey hunting when it coincides with location and dates of special deer antlerless season (Dec. 26 through the first Sunday in January)
3. Deer (Urban Deer Zones): Rename urban deer zones to reduction zones,
- Modify boundaries for these zones,
- Allow baiting to be used in these zones after archery season closes,
- Increase bag limit of antlerless deer in these areas,
- Allow the director to establish these zones on an annual basis by temporary rule,
- Allow firearms in these areas (where authorized by local ordinances)
4. Deer (Shotguns): Allow the 28 gauge shotgun to be used for deer hunting during the firearms seasons.
5. Deer (Youth Season): Allow a youth hunter to take one antlerless deer in a county that is considered to be an “A” county (such as Tipton County) during the special youth deer season,
- Allow the adult that accompanies a youth hunter to carry a handgun in accordance with state law in
IC 35-47-2-1 (it authorizes a person to carry a handgun while engaged in a legal hunting activity)
4. Wild (Feral) Hogs: Clarify that Heritage or Heirloom breed hogs that are possessed, bred, and sold strictly for farming or medicinal purposes are exempt from restrictions on the possession, importation, and sale of wild hogs
- Prohibit the release of swine, wild or domestic, into the wild
- Prohibit the use of dogs to chase or take wild hogs
- Prohibit assisting in the release of a wild hog
5. Small Game Hunting Hours: Establish hunting hours for quail, rabbit, pheasant, dove and woodcock hunting on designated DNR properties from 9am to 4 pm EST/8am-3pm CST
6. Cottontail Rabbits: Close the rabbit season on designated DNR properties on January 31
7. Ring-necked Pheasants: Prohibit pheasant hunters in designated pheasant put-and-take areas from harvesting game animals except pheasants on days when pheasants are released and hunted;
- Limit birds to cocks only in put-and-take areas on Pigeon River, Willow Slough, and Winamac fish and wildlife areas;
- Remove Crosley Fish and Wildlife Area from properties where put-and-take pheasant hunts take place
8. Bobwhite Quail: Change the daily bag limit for quail on Division of Fish and Wildlife administered lands and other designated DNR properties to 2 in the North Zone and 4 in the South Zone
9. Ruffed Grouse: Suspend the ruffed grouse season statewide
10. Endangered Species List: Add long-eared bat to the state’s list of endangered species of mammals once federally listed

FISHERIES

1. Define “Minnow”: Species of the minnow family Cyprinidae, except for exotic species identified at
312 IAC 9-6-7 and endangered species, plus Suckers, Brook stickleback, Gizzard shad, Threadfin shad;
and alewife. Live gizzard shad, threadfin shad and alewife may only be collected, used, possessed, and
disposed of in accordance with 312 IAC 9-6-8. State law changed in 2013 to require a definition in
administrative rule; a temporary rule is currently in place, but a permanent rule is needed.
2. Number of Hooks: Allow 3 hooks to be used on a sport fishing line instead of 2 and clarify that Alabama rigs and other similar devices can be used with no more than 3 hooks that have live bait or 3 artificial lures, or a combination of both. This is currently authorized by temporary rule and a permanent rule is needed.
3. Dogwood Lake (Daviess County) largemouth bass size limit: Change the size limit for this lake back to the statewide 14 inch minimum size limit (it is 15 now)
4. Kunkel Lake (Wells County) largemouth bass limit: Allow only 2 largemouth bass to be taken per day and be at least 18 inches long
5. Crappie size limit at Dogwood Lake (Daviess County) and Hardy Lake (Scott County): Add a new 9 inch minimum size requirement to harvest crappie at these two lakes
6. Commercial fishing on inland waters: Prohibit the use of wings or leads on a commercial fishing device within the Wabash River and other inland waters (does not include the Ohio River)
7. Muskie size limit change on Lake Webster, Backwater Lake, and Kiser Lake in Kosciusko County: Change the size limit from 36 inch to 44 inches for muskellunge and tiger muskellunge on these 3 lakes
8. Fishing near Williams Dam: Establish a restriction on hooks used when fishing near Williams Dam (from the dam to the Huron and Williams Road bridge in Lawrence County) from March 15 through April 20 as follows: have no more than one (1) single hook per line or artificial lure per line. Single hooks, including those with artificial lures, would not be able to exceed one-half (1/2) inch from point to shank, and double and treble hooks with artificial lures would not be able to exceed three-eighths (3/8) inch from point to shank.
9. Walleye/Sauger/Saugeye: Establish a 16” size limit for walleye north of State Road 26 on all public waters (lakes, impoundments, rivers, and Lake Michigan) with the exception of these 5 lakes: Lake George (Steuben County), Bass Lake (Starke County), Simonton Lake (Elkhart County), Wolf Lake (Lake County), and Wall Lake (Steuben County)
- Eliminate the minimum size limit for saugeye on all waters statewide, except for Huntingburg Lake (Dubois Co.) and Sullivan Lake (Sullivan Co.)
- Add sauger to the aggregate bag limit for walleye and saugeye (does not include the Ohio River)
10. Sunfish: Establish a statewide daily bag limit of 25 (in aggregate) for all species of sunfish (includes species such as bluegill, redear, warmouth, pumpkinseed, green sunfish, and others).
11. Exotic Fish: Require exotic fish that are possessed to either have their head removed, be eviscerated, or have gill arches removed from one side to ensure that they are not capable of living (since live possession is not allowed)
- Add the following species: stone moroko, zander, and Wels catfish
12. Catfish (both sport and commercial fishing): Increase the minimum size limit on channel catfish, flathead catfish, and blue catfish from 10 inches to 13 inches on rivers and streams statewide, except on the Ohio River;
- Allow not more than 1 channel catfish to be taken per day that is 28 inches in total length or longer in lakes and streams statewide;
- Allow not more than 1 flathead and 1 blue catfish to be taken per day that is 35 inches in total length or longer in lakes and streams statewide

REPTILES AND AMPHIBIANS

1. Game Turtles (Eastern snapping turtle, spiny softshell turtle, and smooth softshell turtle): Establish a season (July-March),
- Change the daily bag limit to 5 per species
- Restrict the size of snapping turtles that can be taken to only those over 12” and softshells over 13”
2. Game Frogs (Bullfrogs and Green frogs): Allow the use of an air rifle to take game frogs, with a definition of legal air rifles that could be used.
3. License requirements for taking reptiles and amphibians: Specify that a hunting license is required if a firearm (or air rifle, if allowed) is going to be used to take game frogs and turtles

Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: chevy hillbilly on Jan 03, 2014, 03:00 PM
most guys that hunt small game work those hours...not cool
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: bldfrt on Jan 03, 2014, 03:09 PM
As a dude who loves to squirrel hunt I'd be bummed to hear that I can't hunt till 9 and didn't get the evening either. I'm gunna hope this is just hearsay otherwise maybe ill get more musky time I guess
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: abishop on Jan 03, 2014, 03:10 PM
Glad they left the limit of 14 inches at Bass Lake. It is hard enough to get a 14 let alone a 16.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: jdm on Jan 03, 2014, 03:26 PM
From what I read, the hours posted for small game are for D.N.R. designated properties only. I would think if you hunt private non state owned land you would be able to hunt current hours that are legal now.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 03, 2014, 03:26 PM
It is indeed accurate http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-Got_Input_dfw_proposals_2014.pdf

Keep in mind these are not yet rules, they are gathering input about these proposed ideas.


AND the hour restriction is for "designated DNR properties", not just any land anywhere in the state

Looks like they're serious about whacking and stacking the deer in urban areas...

I'll get the popcorn for this thread, should be a good one with lots of civil debate and well thought and informed points :)
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: sprkplug on Jan 03, 2014, 03:57 PM
I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the proposed sunfish limit. Is it due to input from anglers wanting bigger fish, or has the DNR noticed a decline in sunfish populations and/or quality?
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: TylerRyan on Jan 03, 2014, 04:10 PM
I think they used to have a 25 fish limit on Sunfish....the one that gets me is the one fish limit on catfish over 28" long....why?   I still have trouble remembering all the regulation changes from last year. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 03, 2014, 04:24 PM
I think they used to have a 25 fish limit on Sunfish....the one that gets me is the one fish limit on catfish over 28" long....why?   I still have trouble remembering all the regulation changes from last year.

Large catfish are easy to exploit and with exploding pay lakes, many states are going to the "1-over" catfish rule to protect large spawning individuals

as for remembering, that's why they make that handy-dandy regulation booklet!
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: Border Jumper on Jan 03, 2014, 04:27 PM
It is indeed accurate http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-Got_Input_dfw_proposals_2014.pdf

Keep in mind these are not yet rules, they are gathering input about these proposed ideas.


AND the hour restriction is for "designated DNR properties", not just any land anywhere in the state

Looks like they're serious about whacking and stacking the deer in urban areas...

I'll get the popcorn for this thread, should be a good one with lots of civil debate and well thought and informed points :)
Yes it should be a good one.  ;D
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: TylerRyan on Jan 03, 2014, 04:29 PM
Whats paylakes got to do with it?
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 03, 2014, 04:34 PM
Whats paylakes got to do with it?

In a lot of states, pay-to-fish lakes are exploding in popularity. Folks will go out, set trotlines for catfish, and transport the big ones to a private pay lake. Which IMO is unethical, but unfortunately very legal in many areas. As a result some populations of big catfish get fished down very quickly


In general there's increasing focus on catfish as a trophy fish rather than a food fish, with catch-and-release tournaments and new tactics. States are starting to catch onto that and a lot of folks are pressuring DNR's to put in protections for big cats, especially flatheads and blues
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MarshallPrime on Jan 03, 2014, 04:37 PM
Most of it doesnt effect me, I hope they have solid reasons for making the changes...changes for changes sake doesnt make sense.


However, I fully support the 25 fish limit on sunfish.  When I see people walk off the ice with 50, 75, whatever number of fish, I just never get it.  25 is plenty. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: TylerRyan on Jan 03, 2014, 04:42 PM
It's illegal to transport fish to a different body of water or to sell them without a license to do so in Indiana.  Many of the reservoirs and state owned ponds I fish here in Central Indiana don't offer spawning habitat for catfish anyways and the populations are maintained by annual or bi-annual stocking by the DNR.  I think limiting the taking of large catfish could cause an over abundance of them in lakes where they do spawn and really hurt the panfish population.  It's a double edged sword really...
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: TylerRyan on Jan 03, 2014, 04:45 PM
Most of it doesnt effect me, I hope they have solid reasons for making the changes...changes for changes sake doesnt make sense.


However, I fully support the 25 fish limit on sunfish.  When I see people walk off the ice with 50, 75, whatever number of fish, I just never get it.  25 is plenty.

I agree.  I wish they would tell us why they make changes to the regulations instead of just making them.  With as much as we spend on fishing and hunting licenses, entry to DNR parks, etc, I think we have a right to know.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 03, 2014, 05:22 PM
It's illegal to transport fish to a different body of water or to sell them without a license to do so in Indiana.  Many of the reservoirs and state owned ponds I fish here in Central Indiana don't offer spawning habitat for catfish anyways and the populations are maintained by annual or bi-annual stocking by the DNR.  I think limiting the taking of large catfish could cause an over abundance of them in lakes where they do spawn and really hurt the panfish population.  It's a double edged sword really...

It is illegal to transport both native and non-native fish from one waterbody to other PUBLIC waters... but it's not illegal for private bodies of water.  I see nothing in the regulations booklet prohibiting live transport of fish, except for shad, alewives, and invasive species. You are correct, you cannot sell fish, but a pay lake is not selling the fish, they are charging for access to fish in that lake.

As for too many big catfish, it's almost impossible to get that high to hurt panfish populations in large bodies of water, and channel catfish are actually stocked in some small ponds to improve size structure of bluegills
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 03, 2014, 06:22 PM
I am all for the panfish limit, IF they actually enforce it.  To many use the spawn to catch 100's of gills in a day and they are all the biggest males in the lake.  It is not good for the fisheries, so putting a limit on what any one person can take would help.  The rule says SUNFISH....perch are not part of the sunfish family, so are they included in the 25?
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: Ranger482v on Jan 03, 2014, 07:09 PM
I am all for the panfish limit, IF they actually enforce it.  To many use the spawn to catch 100's of gills in a day and they are all the biggest males in the lake.  It is not good for the fisheries, so putting a limit on what any one person can take would help.  The rule says SUNFISH....perch are not part of the sunfish family, so are they included in the 25?
Perch are not included in Michigan for your 25 fish creel
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: bret on Jan 03, 2014, 07:38 PM
If you are concerned about any of the proposed rule changes or have ideas of your own....I would suggest you send the DNR your thoughts and ideas.  It's important they hear our voices.


[DNR] DNR seeks input on fish, hunt, trap regulations
 
Start Date:  1/2/2014 Start Time:  12:00 AM
End Date:  1/2/2014 End Time:  11:59 PM
 
Event Description
The DNR Division of Fish & Wildlife wants to hear your ideas on fishing, hunting, trapping and other fish and wildlife related regulations in Indiana, including special permits.

 From Jan. 2 to Feb. 28, the public can use a convenient online form to contribute ideas and provide input on issues the DNR has identified for consideration.

 The form is at wildlife.IN.gov, at the “Got INput?” box near the middle of the page.

“Got INput?” allows the public to comment on ideas put forward by the DNR Division of Fish & Wildlife as well as requests for rule changes from citizen petitions.

 The program also allows members of the public to propose their own ideas on any fishing, hunting or trapping topic.

“This is an opportunity for people to let us know what changes they would like us to consider,” said Gregg McCollam, assistant director of the Division of Fish & Wildlife. “This process also allows us to get much-needed feedback on issues that the division is in interested in moving forward.”

Got INput users must register with a username and a password.

 Input and ideas can also be mailed to:

 DNR Division of Fish & Wildlife
 Attn: Got INput
 402 W. Washington St., Room W273
 Indianapolis, IN 46204

 After Feb. 28, the Division of Fish & Wildlife staff will evaluate all comments and determine which proposals to forward to the Natural Resources Commission for consideration.
 

 

Contact Information:
Name: Michelle Cain
Phone: (317) 234-8240
Email: [email protected]
 

 
 






 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: pgaschulz on Jan 03, 2014, 07:41 PM
GOOD.....support the DNR that's why we have them!
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: high_flags on Jan 03, 2014, 07:47 PM
The 25 Panfish limit is great. I think most have wanted this for a long time.  Places like the slough has had it for awhile. 

I think I will send my input in to the DNR....Thanks for the address
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 07:56 PM


However, I fully support the 25 fish limit on sunfish.  When I see people walk off the ice with 50, 75, whatever number of fish, I just never get it.  25 is plenty.

Ditto I agree although I'm not sure it should be across the board as in some lakes have too many slow growing bluegills. That said, if it's not practical to list lakes that do and don't have bag limits, I don't have a problem with a 25 fish limit across the board. I do know it seems every time proposals are posted there are anglers who want this.

The think that gripes me are the people that catch as many as they can just to brag and end up giving them away to people that don't buy fishing licenses. I talked to an angler from northwest Indiana that did just that in the fall one year on Clear Lake in Steuben County.  He would catch as many big bluegills as he could when they were vulnerable in the fall inn the the hole across from the Marina. It didn't matter when I showed up, he was already there day in and day out. Bragged to me how many hundred he had take out in a couple of weeks time and had the nerve to tell me he hated to clean fish and just gave them away. To me really big bluegills are a special resource and he had taken fish that could have been enjoyed by other anglers.  Clear Lake can take some of that as it is a big lake but smaller lakes can't.

I also had a biologist tell me that they would get calls complaining about how few bluegills were on the beds in the channels of a couple of lakes, and that they used to get 200 to 400 on a trip. The biologist replied, "Well you probably caught them all."  ::)

Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 08:02 PM
I'm curious as to the reasoning behind the proposed sunfish limit. Is it due to input from anglers wanting bigger fish, or has the DNR noticed a decline in sunfish populations and/or quality?

Don't know but I do know lots of anglers have wanted this for some time and it's been struck down. Unfortunately one explanation given several year ago was the simplistic the more bluegills caught the more food to go around and the better it is for the population. Tony, you and I know it's not as simple as that, and studies by the Illinois Natural History have shown one can bring down the average size of bluegills by over harvesting the large males. Then there are the sneaker and cockhold males and you actually have a mating and courtship ritual that rivals a lot of other animals in the animal kingdom. You and I manage our ponds for large bluegills and we know it's not simple!

Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 08:05 PM
I agree.  I wish they would tell us why they make changes to the regulations instead of just making them.  With as much as we spend on fishing and hunting licenses, entry to DNR parks, etc, I think we have a right to know.

Whenever I have seen changes made solely by the IDNR there is usually an explanation from what I have seen. Maybe you've seen otherwise?  However what we are talking about here are proposals that have been brought forth by sportsman, they are taken under consideration by the IDNR, and either accepted or denied.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 08:08 PM
If you are concerned about any of the proposed rule changes or have ideas of your own....I would suggest you send the DNR your thoughts and ideas.  It's important they hear our voices.


[DNR] DNR seeks input on fish, hunt, trap regulations
 
Start Date:  1/2/2014 Start Time:  12:00 AM
End Date:  1/2/2014 End Time:  11:59 PM
 
Event Description
The DNR Division of Fish & Wildlife wants to hear your ideas on fishing, hunting, trapping and other fish and wildlife related regulations in Indiana, including special permits.

 From Jan. 2 to Feb. 28, the public can use a convenient online form to contribute ideas and provide input on issues the DNR has identified for consideration.

 The form is at wildlife.IN.gov, at the “Got INput?” box near the middle of the page.

“Got INput?” allows the public to comment on ideas put forward by the DNR Division of Fish & Wildlife as well as requests for rule changes from citizen petitions.

 The program also allows members of the public to propose their own ideas on any fishing, hunting or trapping topic.

“This is an opportunity for people to let us know what changes they would like us to consider,” said Gregg McCollam, assistant director of the Division of Fish & Wildlife. “This process also allows us to get much-needed feedback on issues that the division is in interested in moving forward.”

Got INput users must register with a username and a password.

 Input and ideas can also be mailed to:

 DNR Division of Fish & Wildlife
 Attn: Got INput
 402 W. Washington St., Room W273
 Indianapolis, IN 46204

 After Feb. 28, the Division of Fish & Wildlife staff will evaluate all comments and determine which proposals to forward to the Natural Resources Commission for consideration.
 

 

Contact Information:
Name: Michelle Cain
Phone: (317) 234-8240
Email: [email protected]
 


Thanks Bret!
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: bret on Jan 03, 2014, 08:23 PM
I had an interesting conversation a couple weeks ago with a C.O.  I asked him if there would ever be a limit of 25 for panfish?  He did not have all the info but thought some lakes would benefit from it while others seem to keep producing even with high panfish harvest.  He said he checks MANY fisherman during spring and summer with coolers full of panfish....hundreds of fish!  And many times the same fishermen multiple times.  One guy bragged to him that this was his 5th cooler full this week!

He said the spring/summer boat fishermen really slaughter the panfish!....ice fishermen don't even come close.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: ispoman on Jan 03, 2014, 08:26 PM
Key word, proposal. I pretty much set my own rules if i catch a short walleye but its not too thin in the bucket she goes. Regulations are just suggestions to me
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: sprkplug on Jan 03, 2014, 09:00 PM
Don't know but I do know lots of anglers have wanted this for some time and it's been struck down. Unfortunately one explanation given several year ago was the simplistic the more fish caught the more food to go around and the better it is for the population. Tony, you and I know it's not as simple as that and studies by the Illinois Natural History have shown one can bring down the average size of bluegills by over harvesting the large males. Then there are the sneaker and cuckhold males and you actually have a mating and courtship ritual that rivals a lot of other animals in the animal kingdom. You and I manage our ponds for large bluegills and we know it's not simple!

Ain't that the truth Cecil! I will be following this proposal closely, with a keen interest in the impact it might have on the fisheries, should it pass. Like you, I believe a blanket proposal leaves something to be desired, but realize that it's  difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate and govern each of the state's many lakes independently.



Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 03, 2014, 09:01 PM
Whenever I have seen changes made solely by the IDNR there is usually an explanation from what I have seen. Maybe you've seen otherwise?  However what we are talking about here are proposals that have been brought forth by sportsman, they are taken under consideration by the IDNR, and either accepted or denied.

Correct... plus simple logic tells you they make changes for a reason. Why on earth would the DNR go thru all the time and effort just to make changes simply for the sake of changes? They're underfunded and overworked as is, and get grief over just about any regulation they do put forth, so it'd be madness to just arbitrarily make a change for no reason
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 03, 2014, 09:03 PM
Ain't that the truth Cecil! I will be following this proposal closely, with a keen interest in the impact it might have on the fisheries, should it pass. Like you, I believe a blanket proposal leaves something to be desired, but realize that it's  difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate and govern each of the state's many lakes independently.

When I lived in Minnesota (a state that does a lot of independent lake management compared to Indiana) anglers would complain about OVERregulation and the legislature actually was lobbied by the pike spearing lobby to arbitrarily cap the number of lakes with special pike regs at 100 (out of 4,000+ lakes with pike) down from about 130 lakes. Can't please everybody I guess :)
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 03, 2014, 09:20 PM
Ain't that the truth Cecil! I will be following this proposal closely, with a keen interest in the impact it might have on the fisheries, should it pass. Like you, I believe a blanket proposal leaves something to be desired, but realize that it's  difficult, if not impossible, to evaluate and govern each of the state's many lakes independently.

The blanket rule (if that is what they go for) is a start.  Hopefully it will help more lakes than it will hurt.  It will also raise alot of funds for the DNR if they just patrol the lakes from mid may to the end of june.  The guys will coolers full off the beds don't care about the resource now or they would not be taking that many at that time.  They will be the same ones that won't follow the rule and if the DNR hammers them with fines and makes it public, it may deter others from trying the same.  I would be for them raising the license fee to 40.00 or more a year if it puts more feet on the ground to enforce the current and new rules.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: sprkplug on Jan 03, 2014, 09:46 PM
The blanket rule (if that is what they go for) is a start.  Hopefully it will help more lakes than it will hurt.  It will also raise alot of funds for the DNR if they just patrol the lakes from mid may to the end of june.  The guys will coolers full off the beds don't care about the resource now or they would not be taking that many at that time.  They will be the same ones that won't follow the rule and if the DNR hammers them with fines and makes it public, it may deter others from trying the same.  I would be for them raising the license fee to 40.00 or more a year if it puts more feet on the ground to enforce the current and new rules.

Totally agree wax.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: juiceman on Jan 03, 2014, 09:48 PM
Does this really surprise anyone that lives or hunts in this terrible state?  The DNR has single handily ruined very bit of hunting and fishing in this state.  Tele check, urban deer zones, basically unlimited bonus county,antler less only, they have killed off the deer heard, they do not maintain any state properties or publicly funded boat ramps, they removed all of the boats from state properties for duck hunting.  When is enough enough?  This state has been in a downward spiral for the past 4 years.  They have not done anything positive for the sportsmen it has all had negative effects on us, a bluegill limit?  C'mon really they are more worried about limiting the number of bluegill as opposed to the number of deer you can harvest.  Which state property or public access have you been to recently?  How was it?  In disrepair, trash all over the place, no one there, no information? We sportsmen pay for this in one way or another either by taxes or license sales we need to stand up to these Indianapolis IDIOTS and pull their heads out of their asses.  We demand more not less the time is now not later I fear by the time my son is old enough to fish I they'll probably have ZERO hook restriction by then....
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: baboiler on Jan 03, 2014, 09:53 PM
        OK lets say for sake of argument that the suggested changes are passed AND enforced. What do you see the results on the fisheries being? In a 5 year period what changes? Do we see larger fish? Do we see better fishing?
        Or do we maybe see some overpopulation? Do we already have a stunted breed of fish in many of our waters that bag limits would not effect fish size?
         I don't know any of these answers. If it means improved fisheries and a chance to create a larger population of those bull gills - I'm all for it. I've heard this debate and curious of what most people see the effect being.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 03, 2014, 10:01 PM
There are plenty of deer around.  I see herds of them about every time I am driving at dusk.  Have just about hit 2 in the last couple weeks.  You may need to change where you are looking for deer.  Just becuase you are allowed to shoot 8 or 10 or whatever it is does not mean as a hunter you have to do it.  Blame the 'sportsman' for not having any self control.   Humans have ruined alot of habitat and driven the deer into neighborhoods, onto the roads where they are hit and damage cars and people and destroy crops.  Last time I checked bluegills did none of the above.  The DNR is doing what they can to provide hunting opportunities while keeping the herd at a reasonable level.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: ole green moe on Jan 03, 2014, 10:06 PM
There are plenty of deer around.  I see herds of them about every time I am driving at dusk.  Have just about hit 2 in the last couple weeks.  You may need to change where you are looking for deer.  Just becuase you are allowed to shoot 8 or 10 or whatever it is does not mean as a hunter you have to do it.  Blame the 'sportsman' for not having any self control.   Humans have ruined alot of habitat and driven the deer into neighborhoods, onto the roads where they are hit and damage cars and people and destroy crops.  Last time I checked bluegills did none of the above.  The DNR is doing what they can to provide hunting opportunities while keeping the herd at a reasonable level.

I have to ask... Do you hunt deer?
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: angolajones on Jan 03, 2014, 10:11 PM
I'm torn on this one.  I have limited time to fish and like to put on a fish fry for my friends.  What is the difference between going out five days in a row and taking 25 a day versus one day keeping 100+.  I've been skunked basically the last two outings and I'm fine with it because I know by doing my homework, I will have my day.  It isn't easy catching that many fish through the ice.  If the purpose of the proposal is to make people feel better about themselves because they struggle to catch fish, then I'm against it.  I don't like that public opinion will play the part of their decision.  I want it based on facts that by changing the regulations, they will be helping the population.  I've watched weed management in the summer and know it has nothing to do with the ecosystem but rather to please an association. 

I've been fishing for quite awhile and the fish are still there and ever as big as they have been where I fish.  Like always, one bad outing doesn't mean people have destroyed a fishery.  Heck Round lake kicks out tons of big fish every year at first ice.  Then the fish get educated and only small fish get caught.  Then the next year it happens again. 

With all that being said, I only gill fish through the ice so I have no idea what goes on at other times of the year for panfish.

Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: Fishslayer81 on Jan 03, 2014, 10:16 PM
I think the 25 limit on panfish should only be in place through the spawning season. That is when the most damage is done. Panfish need to be harvested on bigger bodies of water and the Ice season is the perfect time to do it.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: sprkplug on Jan 03, 2014, 10:18 PM
        OK lets say for sake of argument that the suggested changes are passed AND enforced. What do you see the results on the fisheries being? In a 5 year period what changes? Do we see larger fish? Do we see better fishing?
        Or do we maybe see some overpopulation? Do we already have a stunted breed of fish in many of our waters that bag limits would not effect fish size?
         I don't know any of these answers. If it means improved fisheries and a chance to create a larger population of those bull gills - I'm all for it. I've heard this debate and curious of what most people see the effect being.

There are no guarantees either way. Every BOW is different, and will respond differently. This is a case of "try it and see"...which is pretty much the case with all new regs. No iron-clad answers here, but if a change is to be made, than it has to start somewhere.

I would imagine that the DNR would evaluate those changes after a time, and either adjust the regs or try a different approach.

If you're asking if a panfish limit would guarantee big bulls statewide, then the answer is probably not. But it's an important first step, even if it gets tweaked here and there as time goes on. That's part of the process.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: baboiler on Jan 03, 2014, 10:24 PM
I wonder if there are any case studies to draw from?
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: portageredneck on Jan 03, 2014, 10:27 PM
maybe the dnr has witnessed them "bearded" fellas taking five gallon buckets of 3-4 inch pannies ????  some of us have...
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: sprkplug on Jan 03, 2014, 10:45 PM
I'm torn on this one.  I have limited time to fish and like to put on a fish fry for my friends.  What is the difference between going out five days in a row and taking 25 a day versus one day keeping 100+. 

From the standpoint of the impact to the BOW itself...probably nothing. As I've mentioned before, the lake doesn't care if 100 bluegills were harvested by a single angler in one day, by that same, single angler over the course of five days, or by that angler and two buddies in one day. It doesn't matter if he/she put those 100 bluegills in the freezer, give them away to folks who are unable to fish, or have a big fry for their friends. The fact is, 100 bluegills are gone from that ecosystem. Notice I didn't say that damage was done, only that those fish were gone.

This brings us right back to "not every BOW is the same"...and they will react to those 100 missing bluegills in different ways.

From the standpoint of the angler, the impact of 25 per day is much greater. After all, many are unable to fish for five days in a week's time, and the DNR knows this. This is why a daily limit works to limit harvests, for whatever species are involved. Reducing the time available for harvests has a direct bearing on the numbers of animals/fish that are harvested.

It's easier for most to get one day off work and catch 100 bluegills, than it is to get four days off work, and catch 25 per day.

Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 03, 2014, 11:00 PM
I have to ask... Do you hunt deer?

I used to, but not recently.  What does that have to do with the number of deer I see just driving?   My point was there are still a ton of deer around where I live and drive.  Maybe different where you live.  Because I don't hunt anymore means the deer I see are not real?  Guys I know that hunt are not having any issues seeing plenty of deer. 

Point still stands...blaming the DNR for the 'rules' causing the deer herd decline (his opinion) is laying the blame in the wrong place.  No one forces any hunter to shoot more than 1 a season.  Example, the DNR says you can keep 5 LM bass a day over 14", but that does not mean you shuold do it just because it is in the rules.  If all bass tournament fishermen kept 5 a day there would be very few LM in IN lakes. Tournament anglers and most recreational anglers let the bass go to enjoy another day despite the 'rules' saying we could all keep them.  DNR knows bass are 90% C&R so they leave the rule in place.  When they put the rules in to allow 4, 6, 8 deer in some counties, they probably underestimated the overzealous hunters that would actually shoot that many.  Hunters need to show some restraint if they care about the resource.  Get your buck and one doe and call it a season.   Should be basic math to anyone including the DNR that deer have 1 fawn (sometimes twins) a year.  Everytime they kill a doe they are removing 2 or 3 from next years population.  Multiply that by 5 or 6 doe tags (because the DNR rules say they can), add in the affects of the virus and yotes killing fawns, and it is not hard to see why some are complaining there are no deer.  One or two guys that go by 'if its brown its down' hunting mentality can put a dent in the herd in a hurry especially if they hunt the same area. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 11:19 PM
maybe the dnr has witnessed them "bearded" fellas taking five gallon buckets of 3-4 inch pannies ????  some of us have...

I've seen plenty of nonbearded folks doing the same. Some people don't know when to stop when they find them on the beds.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 11:24 PM
I had an interesting conversation a couple weeks ago with a C.O.  I asked him if there would ever be a limit of 25 for panfish?  He did not have all the info but thought some lakes would benefit from it while others seem to keep producing even with high panfish harvest.  He said he checks MANY fisherman during spring and summer with coolers full of panfish....hundreds of fish!  And many times the same fishermen multiple times.  One guy bragged to him that this was his 5th cooler full this week!

He said the spring/summer boat fishermen really slaughter the panfish!....ice fishermen don't even come close.

Could that be because most years we don't have extended ice?  I don't know about you but I think Indiana ice fisherman are some the most skilled panfish anglers I have ever observed and I've fish several parts of the country. What some people can do with flies and light line is simply amazing. I respectfully disagree with the C.O. Most likely when he shows up things change quickly. I know in open water as soon as they launch the powerboaters start behaving. I think they could have a field day on some of our larger lakes like Wawasee if they came in an unmarked boat without a uniform. LOL
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 11:28 PM
The blanket rule (if that is what they go for) is a start.  Hopefully it will help more lakes than it will hurt.  It will also raise alot of funds for the DNR if they just patrol the lakes from mid may to the end of june.  The guys will coolers full off the beds don't care about the resource now or they would not be taking that many at that time.  They will be the same ones that won't follow the rule and if the DNR hammers them with fines and makes it public, it may deter others from trying the same.  I would be for them raising the license fee to 40.00 or more a year if it puts more feet on the ground to enforce the current and new rules.

Amen. CO's are not a priority according to our legislature and I got frustrated with reporting violations years ago. Just not enough to go around and they can't just show up at one of a 100 lakes in Steuben County e.g., at the drop of a hat. Many times I called in serious violations only to have to leave a message and be called back three days later. It's not their fault but it was disappointing.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 11:32 PM
Does this really surprise anyone that lives or hunts in this terrible state?  The DNR has single handily ruined very bit of hunting and fishing in this state.  Tele check, urban deer zones, basically unlimited bonus county,antler less only, they have killed off the deer heard, they do not maintain any state properties or publicly funded boat ramps, they removed all of the boats from state properties for duck hunting.  When is enough enough?  This state has been in a downward spiral for the past 4 years.  They have not done anything positive for the sportsmen it has all had negative effects on us, a bluegill limit?  C'mon really they are more worried about limiting the number of bluegill as opposed to the number of deer you can harvest.  Which state property or public access have you been to recently?  How was it?  In disrepair, trash all over the place, no one there, no information? We sportsmen pay for this in one way or another either by taxes or license sales we need to stand up to these Indianapolis IDIOTS and pull their heads out of their asses.  We demand more not less the time is now not later I fear by the time my son is old enough to fish I they'll probably have ZERO hook restriction by then....

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever responded to a rules change proposal? Are you involved in any way to improve things in the state? Or is everything negative for you? I'm sorry but, "The DNR has singe handidly ruined every bit of hunting and fishing in the state" reminds me of the people that complain about their politicians but never vote.

And if everything has been ruined, why are you on this site? Apparently according to your statement above -- you don't fish anymore as there's no point in it -- as everything has been ruined. What you're saying is totally the opposite of a few posters here that say fishing is great and there is no need for a bag limit. Maybe your fishing skills need improving?

Please don't take offense at my response but I don't know any other way to respond to it. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: taxi1 on Jan 03, 2014, 11:35 PM
I wonder if there are any case studies to draw from?

Lots of case studies. Every state around us has limits on panfish and has studied the effect. Both Illinois and Ohio have actually taken it a step farther and eliminated the harvest of the largest bull males on select small research lakes in state parks and the results are astounding.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: Hog Daddy on Jan 04, 2014, 07:00 AM
All the major reservoirs in the southern half of the state have pretty much suffered the same fate.  They start out as unbelievable bluegill fisheries then suddenly almost overnight are dink factories and they never really come back unless drained .  Has nothing to do with limits .  One only has to compare the fish sampling records and when the shad population explodes.  You have places like Boggs Creek, where the only recourse has been to drain the lake and start over.  They even offered rewards for information on anyone putting shad into the lake.  Take a lake like Summit, which seems to be a bluegill factory year after year, and you probably wont find many shad there if any.  We used to have a 25 limit on bluegill in Indiana.  All the 25 limits in the world would not help reservoirs like Monroe or Patoka I'm afraid.

HHD
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: TylerRyan on Jan 04, 2014, 07:12 AM
I used to, but not recently.  What does that have to do with the number of deer I see just driving?   My point was there are still a ton of deer around where I live and drive.  Maybe different where you live.  Because I don't hunt anymore means the deer I see are not real?  Guys I know that hunt are not having any issues seeing plenty of deer. 

Point still stands...blaming the DNR for the 'rules' causing the deer herd decline (his opinion) is laying the blame in the wrong place.  No one forces any hunter to shoot more than 1 a season.  Example, the DNR says you can keep 5 LM bass a day over 14", but that does not mean you shuold do it just because it is in the rules.  If all bass tournament fishermen kept 5 a day there would be very few LM in IN lakes. Tournament anglers and most recreational anglers let the bass go to enjoy another day despite the 'rules' saying we could all keep them.  DNR knows bass are 90% C&R so they leave the rule in place.  When they put the rules in to allow 4, 6, 8 deer in some counties, they probably underestimated the overzealous hunters that would actually shoot that many.  Hunters need to show some restraint if they care about the resource.  Get your buck and one doe and call it a season.   Should be basic math to anyone including the DNR that deer have 1 fawn (sometimes twins) a year.  Everytime they kill a doe they are removing 2 or 3 from next years population.  Multiply that by 5 or 6 doe tags (because the DNR rules say they can), add in the affects of the virus and yotes killing fawns, and it is not hard to see why some are complaining there are no deer.  One or two guys that go by 'if its brown its down' hunting mentality can put a dent in the herd in a hurry especially if they hunt the same area.


I am an avid deer hunter and have hunted the same two properties my family owns for over 20 years.  I have to say that as a deer hunter, and from my buddies that deer hunt, we have noticed a noticeable decrease in deer in the last few years.  I personally only take two deer a year, a buck and a doe, but I know that some other hunters kill extra deer and donate the meat and a few local farmers blame deer for hurting their crops.  I had a friend of mine hunting a farm here near Richmond that the farmer that owns the property told him that if he couldn't limit on deer there then next year he would find someone else that could.  It shouldn't be restraint on the sportsmen's part, but proper regulation on the DNR's part for deer and fish and all game.  There are a lot of uneducated property owners and weekend warrior hunters and fisherman who don't know the first thing about game management that will harvest all they are allowed while being ignorant of the consequences. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: river_scum on Jan 04, 2014, 08:00 AM
this topic will make your brain hurt if you let it. lol way too many variables for a definite assumption. we see lakes give up really nice gills with unbelievable pressure year after year. obviously very fertile and easily able to support a huge population of gills. what would happen if that harvest was limited? would it turn into a over populated and useless fishing water?

sylvan is a great lake to look at rite now. everyone tells of sorting through hundreds of runts for a nice meal of eaters. wasnt like that a few years ago or had it been like that in the past. why is it like this now? is it from the zebra mussels clearing the water, and allowing weeds to grow out of control, therefore limiting predation?  last year it looked like pea soup from an unreal algae bloom. was that because of the clearer water in a shallow fertile reservoir? was it from a growing lawn fertilizing trend? is it from global warming?  i just dont see how one law would benefit every lake, when they are always changing.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: billyex99 on Jan 04, 2014, 08:35 AM
With the proposed 25 sunfish limit are they going to set a possession limit also?
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: sprkplug on Jan 04, 2014, 08:50 AM
this topic will make your brain hurt if you let it. lol way too many variables for a definite assumption. we see lakes give up really nice gills with unbelievable pressure year after year. obviously very fertile and easily able to support a huge population of gills. what would happen if that harvest was limited? would it turn into a over populated and useless fishing water?

sylvan is a great lake to look at rite now. everyone tells of sorting through hundreds of runts for a nice meal of eaters. wasnt like that a few years ago or had it been like that in the past. why is it like this now? is it from the zebra mussels clearing the water, and allowing weeds to grow out of control, therefore limiting predation?  last year it looked like pea soup from an unreal algae bloom. was that because of the clearer water in a shallow fertile reservoir? was it from a growing lawn fertilizing trend? is it from global warming?  i just dont see how one law would benefit every lake, when they are always changing.

Welcome to pond and lake management......it's a constant balancing act. The state is limited in its resources, and unable to juggle every condition on every BOW. And the truth is, some lakes will probably suffer for it, should this proposal become law. In my opinion, it's an unavoidable consequence of a 25 panfish per day blanket limit. But if a problem exists, what other reasonable options are there?

 There must be a reason they are considering such a measure. Many times on this board you will hear comments advising the armchair biologists to "let the DNR handle it...they're on top of things, and if there was a problem they would step in"

Well, it appears that they are considering stepping in. My question is why? Have they observed a decline in numbers, or quality of fish? Or is it due to public input.....anglers wanting bigger fish? To me, that's the number one question.

What about a protected slot for panfish? If the daily limit goes to 25, chances are that the biggest fish in the lake will be the ones getting removed.....should those fish be protected, rather than simply limiting the number of fish allowed per day?

Perhaps a trial run.....pick a few lakes, implement the regs, and see how those BOW fare?




Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: river_scum on Jan 04, 2014, 08:54 AM
yes i think a few control lakes would be a great first step. it would also serve as proof to public, if it worked.

the deer issue would make for a great topic for another thread.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: pearcheyes on Jan 04, 2014, 11:24 AM
Are these into actual law if so I have to remember to keep a count
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: river_scum on Jan 04, 2014, 12:26 PM
no not law just thoughts.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: MC_angler on Jan 04, 2014, 12:53 PM
Does this really surprise anyone that lives or hunts in this terrible state?  The DNR has single handily ruined very bit of hunting and fishing in this state.  Tele check, urban deer zones, basically unlimited bonus county,antler less only,they have killed off the deer heard , they do not maintain any state properties or publicly funded boat ramps, they removed all of the boats from state properties for duck hunting.  When is enough enough?  This state has been in a downward spiral for the past 4 years.  They have not done anything positive for the sportsmen it has all had negative effects on us, a bluegill limit?  C'mon really they are more worried about limiting the number of bluegill as opposed to the number of deer you can harvest.  Which state property or public access have you been to recently?  How was it?  In disrepair, trash all over the place, no one there, no information? We sportsmen pay for this in one way or another either by taxes or license sales we need to stand up to these Indianapolis IDIOTS and pull their heads out of their asses.  We demand more not less the time is now not later I fear by the time my son is old enough to fish I they'll probably have ZERO hook restriction by then....

Who killed off the deer herd? Who left the trash at the accesses?


I find it ironic that you are blaming the DNR for overharvest and trashing of public access points, and essentially saying "save us from ourselves" but then turn around and complain about regulations designed to limit harvest
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: trophytaker1 on Jan 04, 2014, 01:32 PM
This will probably be a good thing for the lakes in Kosciusko county and east because some groups of people tend to fish at spawn and other times with no regard to the future population of the fish. They keep everything from 1 inch to infinity. I think a limit on gills and perch would be alright.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: matfalk on Jan 04, 2014, 01:45 PM
It's illegal to transport fish to a different body of water or to sell them without a license to do so in Indiana.  Many of the reservoirs and state owned ponds I fish here in Central Indiana don't offer spawning habitat for catfish anyways and the populations are maintained by annual or bi-annual stocking by the DNR.  I think limiting the taking of large catfish could cause an over abundance of them in lakes where they do spawn and really hurt the panfish population.  It's a double edged sword really...

Most of the big catfish that go into those pay ponds come from commercial fisherman.  They set up hoop nets and other traps in White River, Wabash River, and the Ohio.  They are allowed to take as many big cats as they want, as well as smaller food grade cats.  The big cats get shipped to places like Catfisherman's Paradise in Camden Ohio.  From there most of them live a short life.  They advertise having hundreds of catfish of 30, 40, and 50 lbs, with a few over 70, and up to 100.  Imagine stocking hundreds of those into a 2 or 3 acre pond.  It's basically a death camp.  So all of those cats, which are breeding stock are being removed from the rivers, and anglers who fish the rivers are catching fewer and fewer big cats, simply because they've already been taken.

DNR is proposing the 1 fish over a certain size rule to help repopulate the rivers with those big cats so they're not being taken and dropped into a paypond.  Other than that, I don't see why anyone would keep a fish over the size limits proposed.  If you're going to keep and eat catfish the fish between 3 and 7 pounds are the best anyway.

Check out this video.  It shows just how many big cats this ONE pay lake stocks at one time.  They stock several times a year.  You'll see how it adds up. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: High Tide on Jan 04, 2014, 02:59 PM
I really hope they implement the 25 limit fish limit. I don't care what the reason... My reason is simply technology, and it's so good right now the fish don't have a chance. I can drive around and find gill beds with SI with ease. The vex makes fishing a heck of a lot easier, and it seems everybody has one. I take a lot of folks out on my boat that don't fish often, and they make the comment that the fish don't have a chance, not because of skill, but more because of the technology. Fish are very picky and only like to hold where it makes fish sense and that's only about 30% of a lakes area, and seasonally come back to those areas time and time again. As more people increase the level of technology in their boats and find these areas, it's definitely going to take its toll on the resources. Furthermore, let's not forget about the internet, where now, nothing is a secret very long! I personally don't have faith in people self regulating, so I'm relying on the government!

To many private lakes like Shorewood have ridiculous fishing... And oh wait... Limits on harvest and pressure. Michigan has great fisheries all over, and oh wait, limits on harvest. The trend is positive, and I'm all for it!
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: ole green moe on Jan 04, 2014, 03:04 PM
I used to, but not recently.  What does that have to do with the number of deer I see just driving?   My point was there are still a ton of deer around where I live and drive.  Maybe different where you live.  Because I don't hunt anymore means the deer I see are not real?  Guys I know that hunt are not having any issues seeing plenty of deer. 

Point still stands...blaming the DNR for the 'rules' causing the deer herd decline (his opinion) is laying the blame in the wrong place.  No one forces any hunter to shoot more than 1 a season.  Example, the DNR says you can keep 5 LM bass a day over 14", but that does not mean you should do it just because it is in the rules.  If all bass tournament fishermen kept 5 a day there would be very few LM in IN lakes. Tournament anglers and most recreational anglers let the bass go to enjoy another day despite the 'rules' saying we could all keep them.  DNR knows bass are 90% C&R so they leave the rule in place.  When they put the rules in to allow 4, 6, 8 deer in some counties, they probably underestimated the overzealous hunters that would actually shoot that many.  Hunters need to show some restraint if they care about the resource.  Get your buck and one doe and call it a season.   Should be basic math to anyone including the DNR that deer have 1 fawn (sometimes twins) a year.  Everytime they kill a doe they are removing 2 or 3 from next years population.  Multiply that by 5 or 6 doe tags (because the DNR rules say they can), add in the affects of the virus and yotes killing fawns, and it is not hard to see why some are complaining there are no deer.  One or two guys that go by 'if its brown its down' hunting mentality can put a dent in the herd in a hurry especially if they hunt the same area.

I think you took my question a little too personally. I have always respected your thoughts and opinions and I was just curious as to your current background in the deer woods.
I have been a passionate deer hunter for 30 or so years now from archery thru muzzleloader seasons. And yes, I have seen the deer herd being dwindled away over the past several years.
You have some very good points as to some of the reasons for this, but, with all that you said, your most compelling reason is indeed 'it is the hunter' who squeezes the trigger at every deer he/she sees that is most to blame. This can only be regulated by the DNR.
I am sure you see plenty of deer driving around covering many miles over the road. I don't have that luxury of driving miles and hunting which is how you are seeing most of your deer. You really need to get back into the deer woods again to see the reductions that us deer hunters have seen over the past few years.
Also, when you have someone leasing up 1/4th of Kosciusko county, Ken (fill in the blank) McIntosh, it makes it even tougher for the average 'ole green moe' to find those good properties that you are probably seeing those deer on to hunt.
I hope that some of what I just typed made a little sense, and I wasn't trying to call you out on anything waxie. I just wanted to know what your recent background was to be speaking out about the current deer herd. Thanks for giving us your opinions as they are always appreciated. ;)   
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: marmooskapaul on Jan 04, 2014, 04:36 PM
All the major reservoirs in the southern half of the state have pretty much suffered the same fate.  They start out as unbelievable bluegill fisheries then suddenly almost overnight are dink factories and they never really come back unless drained .  Has nothing to do with limits .  One only has to compare the fish sampling records and when the shad population explodes.  You have places like Boggs Creek, where the only recourse has been to drain the lake and start over.  They even offered rewards for information on anyone putting shad into the lake.  Take a lake like Summit, which seems to be a bluegill factory year after year, and you probably wont find many shad there if any.  We used to have a 25 limit on bluegill in Indiana.  All the 25 limits in the world would not help reservoirs like Monroe or Patoka I'm afraid.

HHD

This is so true. This is also why, IMO, many lakes in Michigan and other northern states seem to have great/better gill fishing...many/most have no shad. If Summit ever gets shad, say good bye to the gills?.
Paul
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: bull gill hunter on Jan 04, 2014, 05:06 PM
In my opinion there needs to be a limit on sunfish. I have been guilty many times over the 35 yrs of fishing of taking more than I needed, most of us have. Having said that I have also hunted the same section of Whitley county for 25 yrs. I bought the property because of the abundant deer population. I only killed what my family of 6 could eat in a year. About 10 years ago the property on 2 sides of mine sold and poaching and shooting anything with hooves became the norm all around me. The last several years I have killed 1 deer and let my daughter kill one also. The reason for this is I see far fewer deer each set and havent seen a 5 yr old buck for at least 4 years. My point is, if it hurts the deer to be over harvested why couldnt it happen with fish. If we arent willing to set our own limits then maybe we need someone to do it for us.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 04, 2014, 05:37 PM
I think you took my question a little too personally. I have always respected your thoughts and opinions and I was just curious as to your current background in the deer woods.
I have been a passionate deer hunter for 30 or so years now from archery thru muzzleloader seasons. And yes, I have seen the deer herd being dwindled away over the past several years.
You have some very good points as to some of the reasons for this, but, with all that you said, your most compelling reason is indeed 'it is the hunter' who squeezes the trigger at every deer he/she sees that is most to blame. This can only be regulated by the DNR.
I am sure you see plenty of deer driving around covering many miles over the road. I don't have that luxury of driving miles and hunting which is how you are seeing most of your deer. You really need to get back into the deer woods again to see the reductions that us deer hunters have seen over the past few years.
Also, when you have someone leasing up 1/4th of Kosciusko county, Ken (fill in the blank) McIntosh, it makes it even tougher for the average 'ole green moe' to find those good properties that you are probably seeing those deer on to hunt.
I hope that some of what I just typed made a little sense, and I wasn't trying to call you out on anything waxie. I just wanted to know what your recent background was to be speaking out about the current deer herd. Thanks for giving us your opinions as they are always appreciated. ;)

OGM....I apoligize if my response came across the wrong way.  I was possessed by penguins.  I stopped hunting becuase I no longer enjoyed sitting in the woods waiting for a deer to come by and because as you said finding good areas to hunt is nearly impossible.  Now I bass fish from march to decemember.

I was not trying to argue that the deer herd is what it used to be, becuase it is not.  I did not do a good job at it, but I was just trying to say I still see alot of deer (saw 8 on the way to the lake this morining at the edge of a small wooded plot eating in a field) and of course what I see may be different 20 miles from here or where you hunt.   Maybe there are fewer hunters up here or they aren't very good!    LOL at the Ken M. comment.  Been more than 10 years since I have heard anything abuot him.  Used to be a big Bass guy. 

What you say makes sense, but sometimes people have to self regulate despite the rules.  As you know, there is alot that goes into the current rules like farmers complaining about crop damage, insurance company lobby, yearly harvest stats, etc.,  I know we don't always agree with what goes into the rules, but I don't think the DNR really expects most hunters to be killing 4-8 deer a year just because they can.  Unfortunately those that can't self regulate are often the ones that are first to scream 'foul' when after a couple years they are not seeing the same numbers of deer.    It really is a tangled web.  Either allow the herd to grow and expand as we remove more and more habitat each year, which will cause crop damage, higher insurance rates for all, and better hunting for those that hunt, or 'try' to reduce the herd to keep crop damage low, insurance rates in check, and still maintain decent hunting.  Somewhere there is a balance in this whole mess, but I don't know what it is.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: ole green moe on Jan 04, 2014, 05:53 PM
OGM....I apoligize if my response came across the wrong way.  I was possessed by penguins.  I stopped hunting becuase I no longer enjoyed sitting in the woods waiting for a deer to come by and because as you said finding good areas to hunt is nearly impossible.  Now I bass fish from march to decemember.

I was not trying to argue that the deer herd is what it used to be, becuase it is not.  I did not do a good job at it, but I was just trying to say I still see alot of deer (saw 8 on the way to the lake this morining at the edge of a small wooded plot eating in a field) and of course what I see may be different 20 miles from here or where you hunt.   Maybe there are fewer hunters up here or they aren't very good!    LOL at the Ken M. comment.  Been more than 10 years since I have heard anything abuot him.  Used to be a big Bass guy. 

What you say makes sense, but sometimes people have to self regulate despite the rules.  As you know, there is alot that goes into the current rules like farmers complaining about crop damage, insurance company lobby, yearly harvest stats, etc.,  I know we don't always agree with what goes into the rules, but I don't think the DNR really expects most hunters to be killing 4-8 deer a year just because they can.  Unfortunately those that can't self regulate are often the ones that are first to scream 'foul' when after a couple years they are not seeing the same numbers of deer.    It really is a tangled web.  Either allow the herd to grow and expand as we remove more and more habitat each year, which will cause crop damage, higher insurance rates for all, and better hunting for those that hunt, or 'try' to reduce the herd to keep crop damage low, insurance rates in check, and still maintain decent hunting.  Somewhere there is a balance in this whole mess, but I don't know what it is.

We're good buddy!! I agree with most of your comments!! :)
We just can't fix stupid though, can we??? ;) lol
BTW, I'm glad you referred to the Penguin possesion issue. Some have been in denial for years. It isn't like being abducted by aliens.  This is real!! @)
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: ole green moe on Jan 04, 2014, 06:40 PM
To get back to the subject at hand though!! I personally am a fan of a 25 fish limit. I don't have any data or facts to back up my opinion other than personal experience with size/quality of fish in states that do support the 25 fish rule. And yes I have kept more than 25 in the past but would have no issue stopping at 25 during a good bite if it was the law. Great subject!! Definitely something that all fisherman should discuss and give there opinions on!
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: fishinfiend on Jan 04, 2014, 07:55 PM
I like the 25 fish limit, I would love to see a catch and release season for bass during the spawn. Michigan has a closed season bass till after the spawn. It would eliminate tourney anglers pulling bass off the beds, I know Im probably gonna catch flack for this post but I could care less!!! Check Wawasee parking in the spring, Michigan plates everywhere pulling bass off beds for there tourneys that they cant do in Michigan
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 04, 2014, 08:28 PM
I like the 25 fish limit, I would love to see a catch and release season for bass during the spawn. Michigan has a closed season bass till after the spawn. It would eliminate tourney anglers pulling bass off the beds, I know Im probably gonna catch flack for this post but I could care less!!! Check Wawasee parking in the spring, Michigan plates everywhere pulling bass off beds for there tourneys that they cant do in Michigan

Only partially correct.  Michigan has catch and immediate release season starting the last Saturday in April every year.  This is way before bass spawn in Michigan and their catch and keep starts the Sat. before Memorial day each year....which in most years is still before most bass spawn in Michigan.  So the rule really does no good in keeping anglers from targeting bass on beds, and they are hit hard in Michigan too, but their lakes are doing just fine.  Wawa is a bass factory, and no matter how many are caught, taken to the weighin and released, it churns out bass.  DNR did study on Wawa for a couple years and determined tournament fishing off beds has no negaitive impact on the quality of bass fishery Wawa currently is or could be.  Wawa is the best bass lake in the state.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: Hack58 on Jan 04, 2014, 09:10 PM
I also support the 25 limit but doubt it's effectiveness. I have witnessed people from pretty much every religion, race, nationality, and whatever other classification you can come up with catch over their 25 red ear limit that already exists during our annual spring trip down south. I have even reported several of them over the years. My point here is that you can't legislate ethics or morality. One co I used to know quite well said they estimated less than 10% of  poachers ever get convicted. That was based on the number of known and suspected poachers that skated in the court system. Granted that was +/- 20 years ago but I doubt that much has changed.

As to taking bass off the bed I saw a study years ago where the dnr netted and radio tagged 3 females off the nest about as far up the creek as they could go on Skinner lake. They kept them for something like 6 hours and them released each one at the ramp 15min apart to simulate tourney conditions. All 3 separately made a big circle in the lake (to get bearings appearently) and headed straight back to the creek. All 3 were back on the nest within 2 hours of their release. Of course nobody knows what happened to the nest in the 8 hours it wasn't guarded but the conclusion was that catch and release fishing tourneys do no severe harm to nesting bass.

Sorry if this has turned in to a bit of a rant........... I'll shut up now.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: walkerd on Jan 05, 2014, 04:49 AM
I'm for it to but they will never be able to regulate it ie..catching limit and leaving then returning to catch another limit. Don't say it doesn't happen I witnessed it with some people I called friends do this with bass, I don't fish with them anymore and don't consider them friends. I did report it but nothing happened because if they don't witness it they cant do a thing about it. The good thing is there are more honest people than there are dishonest (I may be a bit naive about that statement but have to hope) that most will abide by the rules. I have never understood why some would sit there and take out buckets of gills, now don't get me wrong I love eating bluegills, but cleaning that many my god, I have enough to clean 25 or 30 when I catch them that I've had enough, lol. I always have enough fish to eat a freeze a little for another day at 25 that equals 50 fillets. Now granted I'm kind of a hoarder of my catch, don't have fish Fry's for others lol, I love to eat what I catch, now I do give some to my father in law because he cant get out and ice fish anymore and he loves them to, so I do part with some for him. But always have fish to eat when I want them, I don't eat them every day. Unless there is an outpouring of people against rule changes the state will enact any law they want to if they propose it.
Someone hit the nail on the head about shad ruining a lake, there is one that has always been a bluegill factory and is always hit hard by fisherman winter and summer but now the dinks are overpowering it I took my camera out watching gills coming to  my lure when all of a sudden they left figured bass came into the area so I moved the head around and saw this herd of fish swimming toward it as they got closer it was an unbelievable group of big shad I mean 100s I could not believe my eyes. I contacted the DNR and told them what I had seen, they seemed without saying it what do you want us to do about it. So like I said above the Cos unless they come upon a fisherman with over the limit gills if enacted is about the only way it will be enforced sad but true. Sad but rules are for sportsmen and sportswomen not poachers...........eno ugh said. Sorry for the long rant but this one is one I'm kind of passionate about, and yes if I wanted I could sit and catch buckets of fish but 25 for me would and is enough for me a day.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: tater140 on Jan 05, 2014, 08:06 AM
25 gills is plenty for me to clean.  I would be happy to see that come into effect, if it was for the good of the overall state fishery.  I haven't had to many days where i've caught anymore then that.  I agree that most of us are honest fisherman and would self police to some extent. 
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: popnfish on Jan 05, 2014, 08:34 AM
wouldn't bother me a bit, it is rare if I even keep 25
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: walleyedan on Jan 05, 2014, 11:14 AM
Under fish rule change #5.  what a joke.  There is only 8' of water in the lake since they drained it from last Oct.  It will be 10+ years before there are any bass that size in it.   They drained it because nothing would grow in it but carp.
Title: Re: DNR proposal for new year
Post by: wax_worm on Jan 05, 2014, 12:30 PM
I rarely ice fish past noon when I go, so I usually fish about 4 hours trip.  Not sure why...just how I have always done it.  I usually fish with 1 to 4 other people and we have days where we put 100 or more on the ice, but when there are 4 of us that is still 25 or so a person.  If we can walk off with 25 keeps a person by noon it has been a good morning of fishing.  It does not happen every time as there are times when we only get 15 (or less) or so per guy.  For the guys that stay out all day, they might have to start doing alot of C&R when on a good bite of go home early.