Author Topic: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade  (Read 3971 times)

Offline panfishman13

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #1 on: Dec 23, 2018, 02:32 PM »
reading the article, it looks like this was something they had kind of planned on happening, but it's a real pity that they won't put some kind of a slot limit on cascade to manage for both numbers and size.

at least they haven't found more walleye...

Offline badger132

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #2 on: Dec 23, 2018, 03:14 PM »
I am not sure what they can do- the usual problem with perch is overpopulation. Their survival strategy is to outproduce the predation. If it is successful, you get a population of stunted perch that just get by, and have low growth rates. That is what Cascade was in the '80's- my kids could catch 4 inch perch on a bare hook, and a 10 incher was a big one. I was shocked to see the sizes as the new class of fish came up in the last 10 years.
I believe that they are using the reporting of tagged fish to estimate the effect of angling, and if they felt that limits could keep this going forever, they would put them on immediately.

Offline badger132

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #3 on: Jan 09, 2019, 11:32 AM »
Some good news on the subject-A friend aged some of the jumbos from yesterdays catch, and they are 5-7 years old. It seems like the high growth rates are still occurring, and although the population seems to be varying, perch spawned during the last 7 years are still growing at high rates.

 :)

Offline spinyray

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #4 on: Jan 10, 2019, 11:35 AM »
Quick question regarding aging yellow perch, how did your friend age those fish?  Just curious how it was done.  Thanks for the information!

Offline TightLine21

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #5 on: Jan 10, 2019, 09:27 PM »
One method is to pull out a scale and look at it with a hands lens.  The scales grow in rings similar to the way you age a tree.  The difference is the fish put on multiple rings per year.  Rings spaced apart are the growing season followed by rings closer together, winter.  A year is a set of rings spaced further and closer together.

Offline badger132

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #6 on: Jan 10, 2019, 10:51 PM »
Yep- that is the technique
Pull a scale and count the rings. Luckily, perch scales are larger than some.

Offline fowl_language

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #7 on: Jan 11, 2019, 08:00 PM »
Thanks for the information and the link. Every year the size distribution would astound me, excellent fishery.  But like you said badger perch are always cyclical, we have a couple lakes out here that were once known as amazing perch fisheries that are now amazing crappie fisheries. Change happens I'm glad I was fortunate enough to live out there during some of the best years.  Is that going to stop me from coming out there again? Probably not, the scenery and nostalgia is worth the gas money :)

Offline badger132

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #8 on: Jan 12, 2019, 07:16 PM »
I am trying to be scientific, but every time I think I know the pattern, the next time out I look foolish. A few weeks ago, I caught mostly smaller males, this last time, only 1 male, and mostly large females. I wanted to catch a reasonable 10-12 inched, and couldn't. We all speculate, but I will be the first to admit I don't know the future.



Offline fowl_language

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #9 on: Jan 12, 2019, 07:37 PM »
I am trying to be scientific, but every time I think I know the pattern, the next time out I look foolish. A few weeks ago, I caught mostly smaller males, this last time, only 1 male, and mostly large females. I wanted to catch a reasonable 10-12 inched, and couldn't. We all speculate, but I will be the first to admit I don't know the future.




That is impressive catch recording! Nicely done, I'm glad I'm not the only nerd on hardwater.  I wish I was close enough to have a recorded journal of sizes and dates, I do it for my home waters where ever I'm living but never was close enough to Cascade to fish it enough.

I think that's the hardest part about being fisherman, our hook and line sampling offers so much variability it's hard to draw solid conclusions.  Given enough time and effort though I think the hook and line results will show general trends or at least corroborate the netting surveys.  Those data you collected look great I am interested in seeing what you gather in the future.  Definitely living vicariously through you at this point lol.  I would get my head all sorts of wrapped up if I tried to crunch all the numbers from my failed fishing trips I'd have some serious pseudoreplication (along with a massive...massive migraine).

Offline gf hardwater guy

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #10 on: Feb 06, 2019, 11:12 AM »
To the individual that asked about aging a member of the perch family, there is an awesome how to video on you tube that was filmed by a gentleman from Saskatchewan. Gord Pyzer is his name.
.

Offline KozinKenny

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #11 on: Feb 06, 2019, 04:02 PM »
Excellent video. So my questions on this is... I have been releasing hog Walleye and Perch (and Bass), in hopes that they will produce big offspring. I'm I wrong? Thought process is this ...in the years it takes for a fish to become a "trophy", do we return the smaller ones and give them a chance to grow or do we keep the hogs, knowing they don't have many years...or days left to survive. Aging Fish is an excellent way to manage our fisheries, but where do we draw the line on keepers vs releasing certain sizes back to protect the fisheries. I love to eat fish, and I will do my best to preserve the future of our great sport.
"When an Ice Fisherman Freezes, another one thaws and takes his place."
~Patrick F. McManus~

Good Fish'n, Kenny

Offline Broll89

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #12 on: Feb 06, 2019, 08:56 PM »
Certian species never keep as i dont like to eat them.  As a general rule i refer to the states master angler program.  Anything within a couple inches of master angler size goes back. never keep a walleye over 23". Just a personal number that i go by.  Even by 23" i believe in the majority of the nation the percentage chance of being a female is over 90 percent.  Any fish over that is almost guaranteed a female.  I let those fish go. Keep the  Good genetics in the lake.  Keep lots of wallys every year usually 18-22" . 15s and up if laws allow it.  There are exceptions of course with certain lakes that need big fish pulled out to help the system, but i cant see certain fisheries, such as the one in this post, sustaining the amount of harvesting that happens.  My 2 cents.  Hate seeing dudes with 10 lb. Walleyes on a stringer.  I know its their right and all, but it irks me

Offline HWeber

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #13 on: Feb 06, 2019, 09:12 PM »
Most people seem to overestimate how long it takes fish to grow it seems to be because alot of the info out there is based out of Canada.  Imo forage plays a much larger role than genetics and even if genetics played a larger role we have no way to know which fish have superior genetics until they're so big someone else is going to put them on the wall. 14" or 23" you still really have no idea if that fish can hit 30".  Perch are worse than rabbits,  if the population begins to suffer fishing pressure will go down and the rebound won't take long

Offline Broll89

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #14 on: Feb 06, 2019, 09:38 PM »
Agree about forage.  In most parts of the country its rare for a walleye to reach 25", let alone 30. Very, very small percentage of fingerlings.  Also agree no telling if a 14 or a 23 will reach 30.  Logic suggests a 23 has a much greater chance than the 14 however.  A 30 inch female walleye holds a ton of eggs compared to a 20 incher, therefore we know that by pulling her out of the lake, we gain 1 big, mediocre meal and the lake loses population and fellow anglers lose possible excitement of landing it as well.   Just figure im doing my part by letting bigger fish go.  I will keep the crap out of perch that are obviously pregnant, but will never keep a walleye that i think has even a chance to be. Different folks, different strokes.

Offline RB3

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #15 on: Feb 06, 2019, 10:04 PM »
Certian species never keep as i dont like to eat them.  As a general rule i refer to the states master angler program.  Anything within a couple inches of master angler size goes back. never keep a walleye over 23". Just a personal number that i go by.  Even by 23" i believe in the majority of the nation the percentage chance of being a female is over 90 percent.  Any fish over that is almost guaranteed a female.  I let those fish go. Keep the  Good genetics in the lake.  Keep lots of wallys every year usually 18-22" . 15s and up if laws allow it.  There are exceptions of course with certain lakes that need big fish pulled out to help the system, but i cant see certain fisheries, such as the one in this post, sustaining the amount of harvesting that happens.  My 2 cents.  Hate seeing dudes with 10 lb. Walleyes on a stringer.  I know its their right and all, but it irks me

The above post inspired me to chime in for some reason....In general, based off of my time living in ID, it appears that our state does not appreciate the presence of walleye in many waters.  Albeit, I wouldn't appreciate a random fish species showing up in a location that it shouldn't be.  However, I would like to debunk the myth that walleyes will eat all of our trout and kokanee when yellow perch and chubs are found in the same body of water.  Naturally, walleye will target those species.  Walleyes love yellow perch like Chunk from The Goonies loves his Snickers.  Smallmouth are just as predatory and possibly more aggressive than walleyes.  They crush kokanee in Dworshak Res, hence you can catch a 10lb smally from that lake.  High omega-3 fatty acids must really make bronzebacks grow.  I only bring this up because I smell fear around my neighborhood when somebody accidentally catches a wally out of Ririe.  There's plenty of perch in there to support a population of walleye (again, in my opinion).  Afterall, the fish have coincided living with smallmouth and the fishery maintains itself fairly well. 

Related to post above: this is the best post I've seen related to walleye fishing on an Idaho board.  He gets it.  I grew up catching walleye and still do when I'm in the right location.  I just happen to live in a place (SE ID) that doesn't have walleye waters near me.  I've witnessed what over-harvesting large females can do to an 'eye' population.  A river back in IN was a secret for years, and I would go out and catch a limit of 6 fish pushing 50 lbs (do the math).  I would not ever keep those fish, because they're spawning females and help keep the population strong.  Today, that same river I grew up wading and catching walleye has become the product of over-fishing by the general public and now the walleye numbers are starting to decline.  This happened over a course of about 12 years.  Although ID is fairly generous when it comes to warm-water fish limits, I'd urge the fellow fisherman to set personal limits on what they take home.  It's a reality check for those of us that want to continue seeing a fishery like Cascade maintain its potential as well as other waters that produce quality fish.  I may be wrong, as I am not a scientist (I am a pharmacist), but I'd be willing to hedge my bets and say that you can only take so many 5 gallon bucket-fulls worth of mature fish out of lake before the effects begin to take hold.  I'm off the box now.  Good luck on the ice!

Offline hugeinchina

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #16 on: Feb 07, 2019, 10:11 AM »
The above post inspired me to chime in for some reason....In general, based off of my time living in ID, it appears that our state does not appreciate the presence of walleye in many waters.  Albeit, I wouldn't appreciate a random fish species showing up in a location that it shouldn't be.  However, I would like to debunk the myth that walleyes will eat all of our trout and kokanee when yellow perch and chubs are found in the same body of water.  Naturally, walleye will target those species.  Walleyes love yellow perch like Chunk from The Goonies loves his Snickers.  Smallmouth are just as predatory and possibly more aggressive than walleyes.  They crush kokanee in Dworshak Res, hence you can catch a 10lb smally from that lake.  High omega-3 fatty acids must really make bronzebacks grow.  I only bring this up because I smell fear around my neighborhood when somebody accidentally catches a wally out of Ririe.  There's plenty of perch in there to support a population of walleye (again, in my opinion).  Afterall, the fish have coincided living with smallmouth and the fishery maintains itself fairly well. 

Related to post above: this is the best post I've seen related to walleye fishing on an Idaho board.  He gets it.  I grew up catching walleye and still do when I'm in the right location.  I just happen to live in a place (SE ID) that doesn't have walleye waters near me.  I've witnessed what over-harvesting large females can do to an 'eye' population.  A river back in IN was a secret for years, and I would go out and catch a limit of 6 fish pushing 50 lbs (do the math).  I would not ever keep those fish, because they're spawning females and help keep the population strong.  Today, that same river I grew up wading and catching walleye has become the product of over-fishing by the general public and now the walleye numbers are starting to decline.  This happened over a course of about 12 years.  Although ID is fairly generous when it comes to warm-water fish limits, I'd urge the fellow fisherman to set personal limits on what they take home.  It's a reality check for those of us that want to continue seeing a fishery like Cascade maintain its potential as well as other waters that produce quality fish.  I may be wrong, as I am not a scientist (I am a pharmacist), but I'd be willing to hedge my bets and say that you can only take so many 5 gallon bucket-fulls worth of mature fish out of lake before the effects begin to take hold.  I'm off the box now.  Good luck on the ice!

I think we are seeing the effects of too many five gallon bucket loads taken from Cascade in past seasons effect the fishing this season. I have not seen one report to suggest that the fishing on Cascade is anywhere near what it was in the past. I know from my own experience a couple of weeks ago that the fish we encountered were pretty tight-lipped and the jumbos were few. I hope I am wrong.

Offline badger132

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #17 on: Feb 07, 2019, 12:03 PM »
I think we are seeing the effects of too many five gallon bucket loads taken from Cascade in past seasons effect the fishing this season. I have not seen one report to suggest that the fishing on Cascade is anywhere near what it was in the past. I know from my own experience a couple of weeks ago that the fish we encountered were pretty tight-lipped and the jumbos were few. I hope I am wrong.

I also have never seen perch so hard to get to bite! In the '80's you could catch a 5 inch perch with a bare hook. Hundreds if you kept at it! My kids had a ball, and we put them all back. Now I see clouds of marks around my bait almost anywhere on the lake, but they sniff a the hook and move on- except for the few huge perch that come in and slam the bait several times until they get hooked. Wish I had a camera to see what is going on with those lurkers down there.

I have been getting different results as the year goes along. Still not as I remember from 5 years ago, but there are more 15+ fish as a percentage than I remember. I have fished harder for less fish than in the past, but I am trying to keep records since I know I have stronger memories of the good days.

Most biologists feel that you can't over fish perch- and it is rare to see a limit to protect them. I read once that when perch are present, they comprise 80% of the biomass in a lake. (wish I could find evidence to support that- I would have thought it would be a bug or a plant) I do know that Cascade perch I do catch are stuffed! They vomit and poo all sorts of food on the ice when you bring them up- and the growth rates are high- we aged 1 14 inch fish at 8 years old.

These things tend to self limit- if catches and sizes go down, I am sure angler days will follow, and if that fails, hopefully F&G will step in with a plan to keep things on a good course.



Offline hugeinchina

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #18 on: Feb 07, 2019, 02:01 PM »
Glad to hear it was not just me seeing the lurkers come up and shy away back down. I also experienced the same thing you did with the few truly big ones that came in. There was no hesitation and they came in hot!

Offline Broll89

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #19 on: Feb 11, 2019, 07:31 PM »
RB3 nailed it when backing up what i was saying in his 3rd to last sentence.  Over harvesting is absolutely real... idaho natives and long time residents are lucky in the fact that there is soooo much country/lakes with relatively few people.  Being a native in a state where i once was usually the only one fishing at any given spot on a weekday and going now on a tuesday and there are no less than 30 heads on any legit section water, the results speak for themselves. There never used to be mass efforts/$$$ in artificially producing fish to put in lakes to keep up with the harvest.  You would just go and catch fish that reproduced naturally and there were an abundance of them. This hasnt ever really been a concern for idaho residents. Unfortuantely for the locals,   Social media/youtube have put this specific lake on the map and while it is awesome to local small businesses and no doubt helping provide a surge in their profits i GUARANTEE this lake will not be able to keep up with over harvesting.  It will become a "you should have seen it 10 years ago" lake sooner than later.  If you were to ignore every other aspect or arguement to either side of this and just think about this... if that lake in the past 5 years had never been fished, would there be more or less fish in it? That said, Anglers can help contribute to healthy conservation efforts, but there have to be limits and definitely common sense regarding filleting 10+lb. Walleye.  Mount (1) 30 incher in life if u please and let the rest go. I eat freshwater  fish ive caught twice a week and have never had to fillet a 10 lb.er or keep any more than a sensible limit of fish. Oh and im feeding a family of 5.  That said, i release over 2000 walleye every year

Offline Broll89

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Re: Bad news from the latest October netting survey at Cascade
« Reply #20 on: Feb 11, 2019, 07:55 PM »
Apologies to the original post referring to what size of fish to keep.  It got hijacked into over harvesting.  Just want to give my 2 cents to help save amazing fisheries for all of us and our children.  The past 2 nights i took out my 10 and 12 year old boys for walleye. We were fishing a small "honey hole" . It actually gets plenty of fisherman but using other strategies at other times for other fish.  They caught 14 fish up to 19". First of the year in open water.  Awesome nights.  We let every one go.  Could have kept all of them but i told them we will keep our share out of bigger waters that support more fish.  This way they can come back next year to catch the same fish and put smiles on their faces yet again. 

 



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