Vermont Deer Season

[buckshot464]

I know that this is a fishing board but I think that many of you hunt.   With the Antler restriction experiment being over.   The fish and game with Wayne Laroche in charge is trying to make our state into a trophy deer hunting only area.   He wants to make it three points on one side threw the whole state.   That will be the end to many people tracking bucks as it is nearly impossible to count points on a running deer.  This will change the way Vermonters have hunted for generations.  Think about he kids trying to havest a deer and the presure of not shooting anything for three or four years because they don't have a trophy buck walk up to them.  That is the end of there hunting in Vermont.  Many would rather play Xbox  or just stay home then spend countless hours in the woods for nothing.   I know its not all about killing but shooting a deer is what its all about and thats when the real fun comes in weather your shooting a doe, a spike or a ten pointer.
  Unless everyone want wants to be a trophy hunter you better voice your opinoions to the vermont fish and game and the Vermont deer board.
On the Hunters and anglers and trappers board is a messsage board where a few Vermont game board members frequent and you can voice your oppinions there.   
 Here is the link
http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php

http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php

[fishandbeer]

Buckshot,
There are sooo many people that i know that are really sick of what Sir Wayne has done to the hunting in this state. My son hardly hunted at all this year. When I would get home from hunting he would ask me how the Hiking was. He used to hunt back when there was still some deer left in the woods. Everybody I know is ranting about how bad the hunting sucks, but nobody is organizing any type of resistance to this guys policies. I have hunted in Vermont only my whole life, and I am 53 years old. This year will mark the first time in my life that I have bought an out of state licsense. That is courtesy of Mr. Laroche. The hunting this past year reminded me of back in the late seventies and early eighties when you were happy if you saw a deer. That was after 2-3 years of rifle doe hunting. That is also the time frame when most of the out of state hunters said goodby. Laroche has been watching too many of the trophy buck shows on tv, and he thinks he can make Vermont like the tv shows. We simply have too much hunting pressure for that ever to happen. Hopefully us sportsmen in this state will organize and throw this guy out on his can........ 

[ssinvt]

I am all for point restriction.  I have seen more deer in the past couple years then ever.  I would like to think it is because I am just becoming a better hunter, but I doubt it.  If you want to shoot something besides a "trophy buck" then buy a bow, and shoot a doe.  I know it actually takes skill to shoot one, but there are options besides running down deer.  

[fishandbeer]

SSinVT
Were you hunting in this state back in 1990's. That is when we had a lot of deer. The group I hunt with would all tag out back then, and all with nice deer. Then the does tags started coming around during black powder season. We had 2 rough winters in 2000-2001, and they still gave out doe tags. Back then I used to pack the wife and kids in the truck and ride around before deer season filming some beautiful bucks. You can drive through that same area now night after night and be lucky if you even see a deer. I don't know where you are hunting but it must be someplace different then everybody else I talk to. 

[walleyeicefisher]

I'm not sure where everyone is riding around but i ride around just about every friday night.  I usually see at least 5 bucks in any given night.  Since the point restriction i watch on average 5 bucks coming in to my food plot. 
I agree i think the 3 point restriction might be a bit much but since the restriction i have seen alot of nice bucks. 

[hunter13]

the way i see it is the people who want the 3 point rule don't hunt to feed there family more for the horns i for one hunt to feed my family  i think we should keep the rule we have why up it to 3 points  then  after 5 years they will want to up it again  after awhile they will want us to shoot only odd pointed deer lol we just dont have what canada and all these other states have to grow  boone and crocket bucks like they do  and i think they should out law these hunting shows how many of you have ben able to watch a  buck here in vt walk in to your stand and watch him for 10-15 minutes trying to deside on if you are going to shoot him i know when i get the first clean shot i take it


hunter13

[finlessbrown]

the food plot is probably the reason why. i hope your not hunting out of these food plots as it is illegal.

[Bailbuster]

the food plot is probably the reason why. i hope your not hunting out of these food plots as it is illegal.

WHAT! Get the facts straight,plots are legal, bait is not.Get a new law book or at least one that is only a couple of years old.That being said the deer team and turkey team in Vermont should just swop .one group says we have 50000 turk the othe says  125000 deer.BB

[ssinvt]

the food plot is probably the reason why. i hope your not hunting out of these food plots as it is illegal.

Umm, no hunting out of a food plot is not illegal.  Hunting over a baited area is.  Big difference.  The state encourages food plots.  In my opinion if the state wants to fix things they need to manage the land better.  By making a lot more food plots for deer.  I don't think it is a point restriction, so much as land management.  

On another note, Yes I was hunting around here in the 90's.  I have been hunting Vermont for over 20 years.  Last year was my best season.  120lbs doe (bow - Mathews Monster) ,  and a 145lbs 8 pointer- Rifle.

[bushey911]

I to agree the 3 point rule is a bit to much, if you have ever hunted in pa you will see alot of bucks that did'nt make the cut just rotting because people shot first and ask questions later in my mind a waste, dont want to that in vt.  And as far as the plot thing is concerned dont mind people planting them i my self do this but hunting on the edge of them is another not much woodmanship to sit there and have them come in..I hunt the areas around the plot in the woods bout 500 yard away or so more sport in my mind just my opion, again nothing wrong with that it is legal.

[Bailbuster]

hunt the areas around the plot in the woods bout 500 yard away or so more sport in my mind just my opion, again nothing wrong with that it is legal.


What the difference shoot them on the way or shoot at the plot?

[rawrightII]

This state will not ever become a trophy state.  As much as Laroche has a dream of this happening I just do not believe it ever will.  First hand experience; checking a deer in the second year with antler restrictions. we had what should be called a legal four pointer.  the guy checking it says wow thats a eight, due to the small bumps in the antler beam (not a legal one inch). just so the overall harvest report would say its producing bigger bucks.  
     biologist spent some time up north around my camp this winter.  our neighbors who are there year around spend everday up in the woods (retired, older). they run into these biologist and the guy tells them how this area is full of moose and deer, there everywhere.  my neighbors ask, how many did you see? the biologist responds, none, just saw some tracks. well my neighbors have seen throughout the winter 3 moose, and 6 deer who yard in the area and now this biologist is going  back and report how this certain area is a wintering yard full of wildlife, all kinds of moose and deer....
  my point.. i think that state is continuing to lie to the public, and frabrigate numbers to justify their needs.  in the long run it all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. how many tags can they sell. how can they market the states deer herd.
  not only is the state talking about going to 3 points on one side, buck opening up a muzzle season for does before rifle. as far as im concerned thats the best week of hunting in our area (NH experience) with rutting buck activity, now your going to arm all these hunters and put them in the woods. how many bucks will be shot by people during this doe season? i feel like its asking for trouble.  theres a reason why vt season is when it is, to let some does be bred.  
  i just think the state of vermont and their deer management is so far out of whack. the doe to buck ratio is estimated at 2.75-3.25. if this doe season is introduced before rifle, and the extra doe tag for archery is implemented. whats the next few years going to look like?

[bushey911]

not much, again only personal option....like the idea off scouting to find the best trails to the plot and finding the best spot to hang a stand...not saying no work has to be done to do the same on the plot again personal option.

[hunter13]

the thing i dont get we cant bait deer because it draws all the deer to one spot to feed and the state says it would be a bigger chance of decese  well what does a food plot do i have seen  it i hunt 300 acers of concervancey land which borders private property and they have food plots well  what i have seen with my scouting camera mounted  on a cow path of a deer trail  on the border of this private property  and the deer seem to come on to the concervance after dark and are going back onto the private property way befor daylight
so it is keeping the deer off of the concervance land during shooting light  thats what i dont like about the food plots because if your stuck hunting state or concervance land you cant put food plots in


hunter13

[Bailbuster]

not much, again only personal option....like the idea off scouting to find the best trails to the plot and finding the best spot to hang a stand...not saying no work has to be done to do the same on the plot again personal option.

I am not against it either way, just wondered.I sit on a small log road plot ,and on the trails to the corn and bean feilds.BB

[Fish-On-VT]

Why would you put out 23,000 doe permits if you want a heard to grow? Only reason is money. I can see putting permits out for those areas who's population need s to be controlled to make sure there is enough food to sustain the herd, but other areas where there is plenty of food
and not enough deer

Totally agreed!! at the end of the day, this is all a financial problem, and nothing more... 

[new guy]

holy sh$t did this post draw some fire!!!whoooo hoooo!!! now if only everyone that put that same energy into protesting and organizing,some serious crap would go down. personally, i bow hunt,rifle,muzzleload...if theres a season i'm out there.and this past year SUCKED.i think the dept of F &W fudges the numbers on herd numbers to get people to buy tags.am i crazy...maybe.but i spend on average 300 days in the woods.from tapping trees to helping friends on trap lines to coyote hunting around deer yards.i hike all summer long and keep tabs on certain areas and i can say that from barre area to vershire to groton and the whole central vt area the deer are gone.when a friend has a food plot and game camera only photographs 10 deer (8 doe...2 bucks) from sept to dec when the year before it was so many he couldnt keep track....thats a sign that something isint right.also, in groton i came across 2 doe side by side that had been taken down by coyotes the same night.there stomachs were full and what was left looked like strong healthy deer.think about that, coyotes taking down healthy strong deer....shoot every god damned coyote you come across.then write to F&W and pitch your b***h.numbers count and this is still a democracy......right?

[rawrightII]

there is a bigger coyote problem around vermont than anyone wants to lead on.  I was bowhunting, and watched two mature dogs running a spike horn, circling trying to get that deer.  during rifle season three different occasions, coyotes running does! this is crazy.  we need to shoot every coyote we see.  between myself and a neighbor, weve taken over 30 coyotes in the past few years, and there just seems to be no end to the sob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[captain54]

I'm not from Vermont,but Pa. They started this AR(antler restriction) in 02 3Pt's per side,and some areas 4 Pt's per side and a huge HR (herd reduction)Two weeks of doe season ( w/rifle),plus almost 1,000,000,000 hunters,the deer herd in Pa. is not pretty,they almost force you to become a DOE hunter,it's bad here and I hope they change so laws to beef the herd up,I hope Vermont sees the light to,young hunters are loosing interest also,it's tough to take a young hunter out and see nothing.

[gatornation]

I had to chime in here as I joined to get updates on ice conditions, but I am more of a deer hunter than a fisherman.  I don't know if anybody mentioned it, because I did not read every single post, but did anybody take the time to actually read the the deer management plan produced by the state?  It says nothing about implimenting a 3 point rule on one side at a state wide level.  It only mentions it as a possibility if and only if such backing by Vermont sportmen/women was present.  To many of you who do not see many deer anymore in certain areas that used to hold many deer, you must remember that whitetails are ungulates.  They are a herd species and travel like a herd and move to the most apporpriate habitate that will sustain the herd.  Fortunately, I hunt in an area were the deer are only getting bigger in body size every year and in antler size every year and most of us in the area DO NOT shoot the dogs out there.  Why?  Because they kill the weak deer which ends up improving herd health.  15 years ago a good deer in my area would be a 6 pointer at 150 lbs with a 10 inch spread.  Now, there are 170lb 4 pointers with 14 inch spreads and 8 pointers galore with 16-18 inch spreads up to 200 lbs.  Plain and simple, if you are not seeing deer, find another location to hunt. 

[buckshot464]

  I say lets get back to hunting and less trophy hunting!
  Vermont will never be Iowa or Ohio!   There is a small section of Vermonts interior where farming is still quite prevalent so hunting there probably shows better possitive effects than in the other 90 percent of the state.
  I vote NO to trophy hunting, leave it to the proffesionals on the sportman channel that hunt in elevated blinds in texas.  What a joke!  Is that the dirrection that Vermont wants to go?   The guys with the most land and the most money shoot the biggest bucks!  Us regular Joes end up with crap!  And our kids end up not interested in hunting because we can't afford a canned hunt for them.
Thanks AR's for ruining our Vermont deer hunting heritage!

[smartpill]

I know that this is a fishing board but I think that many of you hunt.   With the Antler restriction experiment being over.   The fish and game with Wayne Laroche in charge is trying to make our state into a trophy deer hunting only area.   He wants to make it three points on one side threw the whole state.   That will be the end to many people tracking bucks as it is nearly impossible to count points on a running deer.  This will change the way Vermonters have hunted for generations.  Think about he kids trying to havest a deer and the presure of not shooting anything for three or four years because they don't have a trophy buck walk up to them.  That is the end of there hunting in Vermont.  Many would rather play Xbox  or just stay home then spend countless hours in the woods for nothing.   I know its not all about killing but shooting a deer is what its all about and thats when the real fun comes in weather your shooting a doe, a spike or a ten pointer.
  Unless everyone want wants to be a trophy hunter you better voice your opinoions to the vermont fish and game and the Vermont deer board.
On the Hunters and anglers and trappers board is a messsage board where a few Vermont game board members frequent and you can voice your oppinions there.   
 Here is the link
http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php

http://www.kevaco.com/hatvt/New_Message_Board/mboard.php

I agree with this statement 100% Very well said... If you want to hunt trophy buck then go to Canada... I have been hunting in this state my entire life and over half the deer I have harvested have been spikehorns. I deer hunt because I enjoy the sport and I FEED MY FAMILY.. I generally hunt dark to dark in any type of weather, and after hunting two solid weeks in a foot of snow in 20 degree weather, I have to pass up on a spikehorn on the last day.. I don't think so.. Imagine all the young kids starting to hunt, how discouraging it is for them to have to pass on shooting what used to be a legal buck. They are jaded for life and will probaly have no interest in hunting again.

In addition to all the posted property we have in this state and hunters shooting other hunter's and people's pet's... The integrity of this sport has suffered considerably.. I'm not going to lie, sure it would be nice to shoot a "tropy buck" but that it NOT WHAT THE SPORT IS ALL ABOUT NOR HAS IT EVER BEEN ABOUT TROPHY BUCKS.. I am disgusted with the way our current Commissioner is managing our deer herd and I'm not looking forward to the day my son and daughter are old enough to hunt

[fishandbeer]

Guy, lets face it. We are not going to change anything unless we get organized. I have hunted in Vermont my whole life and hunt all three seasons. This upcoming season will be the first time in my life I buy an out of state license. I am not going to buy a bow tag, not going to buy a muzzleloader tag, and not going to apply for their stupid doe lottery. I am doing so in hopes that if enough people follow suit and don't purchase tags this year maybe that will be enough to get Laroche fired from his job. It's all about tag sales, and if they drop enough, hopefully he will be gone. It sucks to give up hunting for a year, but it's the price I will have to pay to make things better. After what I saw in the woods last year I will not be missing much. In this state we have been hunting deer for a long time. It's funny that we never really had any controversy before this new program. Now look how the sportsmen in this state have been divided. He is working in the same method that the anti-hunters use to make their gains.   

[woodab17]

Whether or not you support the idea of going to 3 points on one side, it is absolutely absurd to say the restrictions put into place a few years ago are having no effect.  

I grew up in Arlington on a good peice of posted property.  We have food plots and try to take care of our herd.  When the antler restrictions went into place I had a long talk with my father and the other individuals that hunt our land to discuss putting a bigger restriction on our deer than the state has mandated.  The last two years I have seen an explosion of bigger antlered deer.  It is rare when I don't see a deer on any given day(I know i am hunting a prime peice.)  But I spent a lot of time in Sugarloaf, ME and in Norton, VT with RAWRIGHT over the past few years.  The deer you see hunting on public land comes down to nothing more than snowfall.  The reason you aren't seeing as many deer is because you don't have a white background behind them, this season was a perfect example as I spent the whole season in Sugarloaf.  I saw 3 deer (all together) over the course of the entire season.  Then before the last saturday we get snow and wouldn't you know it.....myself and my buddy both see good bucks that very first day with snow on the ground.  The deer are there you just aren't seeing them as they blend in to their surroundings.  

As for killing does.  The idea behind this is the simple fact all the herd is competing for the same food source.  If you cull some does that will inevitably leave more food for the young bucks.  RAW, you don't want the doe muzzle season to be before rifle season?!?  I will give two reasons I feel very strongly this is the best time for that.  1.) First and foremost it would give the youngsters a great chance to get out and shoot A deer, buck or doe before the deer have been spooked to all the human pressure.  2.)  The does harvested will not at this time be carrying a possible future trophy in their bellies.  

In the original post you said people wouldn't track anymore because they don't know what is going to be at the end of the track.  I think that is completely wrong.  Tracking is probably the most successful way to target BIG BUCKS!!!!!!!!  Tracking if anything should get a boost from antler restrictions.  If you don't have enough time to tell if the deer is legal while it runs away you probably don't have time to take a safe kill shot anyways.

I am all for the restrictions.  I would like it to be restricted even more.  One guy said they don't want to see what happened in Penn happen here.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME??  They are killing bigger and better deer, no questions asked.  And I don't care what that guy from Penn says.  Facts are Facts.  One person said people will leave deer in the woods to rot because they don't meet the requirements.  Well those people shouldn't be in the woods in the first place and under the current system they probably still would shoot a spike and leave it.  Under the old system they would probably shoot a doe and leave it.  So this will be no different.

[woodab17]

Everyone keeps talking about trophy bucks......the sport SHOULD BE about taking mature animals and allowing the younger ones to grow, no different than catch and release.  I feel no sympathy for the guys mad because they can't shoot a spikehorn anymore.  You shouldn't shoot a spike horn ANYTIME OF THE SEASON!!!!!!!!

If you need the meat that bad you can come down to my house and I will harvest a doe for you to eat.

[fishandbeer]

I see one trend for sure. The people with access to posted land love this rule. They are the ones that can afford to have the food plots, and large tracts of land with undisturbed deer. Try hunting a whole season on public land and see how you feel. I drove Lincoln Hill rd and Hinesburg Hollow rd the last weekend of muzzleloader season this year, and saw at least 25 pickups parked. I hunted in there earlier in the week on snow. I hunted about 6 miles in there and only saw 2 deer tracks. I hunted earlier in the week on snow behind my house in Williston. I covered every nook and cranie in that piece of wood, and never saw a single deer track. That is just sad as those areas used to be good hunting. Do you think my two boys want to do that same thing? Nope. They have stopped hunting. When I come home from the woods they ask me how the HIKING was. They used to enjoy it, but they also used to see a deer once in a while.....Keep giving out those doe tags. Vermont HAS become a trophy deer state, because now if you get a deer it is a trophy.... Thanks Wayne.

[woodab17]

I see one trend for sure. The people with access to posted land love this rule. They are the ones that can afford to have the food plots, and large tracts of land with undisturbed deer. Try hunting a whole season on public land and see how you feel. I drove Lincoln Hill rd and Hinesburg Hollow rd the last weekend of muzzleloader season this year, and saw at least 25 pickups parked. I hunted in there earlier in the week on snow. I hunted about 6 miles in there and only saw 2 deer tracks. I hunted earlier in the week on snow behind my house in Williston. I covered every nook and cranie in that piece of wood, and never saw a single deer track. That is just sad as those areas used to be good hunting. Do you think my two boys want to do that same thing? Nope. They have stopped hunting. When I come home from the woods they ask me how the HIKING was. They used to enjoy it, but they also used to see a deer once in a while.....Keep giving out those doe tags. Vermont HAS become a trophy deer state, because now if you get a deer it is a trophy.... Thanks Wayne.

I just want to say that yes my family does own private land.  But I prefer to hunt on large tracks of public land and have done so for the past three years, and I LOVE THIS RULE!!!!!  It has nothing to do with private land and everything to do with BETTERING our deer heard as a whole, the best ways to do this are harvest more does, and restrict the young bucks killed.  The fact you are hiking all day and seeing only 2 deer tracks tells me you better find a new spot.  Just because it USED to be a good spot doesn't mean the deer will always be there.  I have found tons of tracks in Sugarloaf, ME (where people told me repeatedly there were only moose up there.) and in Norton.  And these are big woods!!!!

[Weedmaster]

This is a complex issue! I agree with woodab17 on most of what he says, I have practiced a 3 pt rule on my own for over 10 yrs. While I have eaten plenty of tags because of it I have not gone without venison, if you put in the time(not just hunting but scouting also)you should be successful also. But there are many valid points made throughout thread.Coyote problem is huge, population estimates and ratios are a joke, I was told by a wildlife board member some of the deer and turkey #s are based on what people saw driving to and from work! WHAT?? Habitat,winter yards, lack of hunter effort and available hunting ground all are issues the State have no money to address. The restrictions would be better if the plan were implemented differently but being such a controversial issue it only went half way with the hopes of gaining approval (remember the original moose hunt uproar) You do have to remove does to make up for the decrease in 1 1/2 old kill or habitat will suffer! But it needs to occur much earlier in the season, Sept muzzy possibly. All that being said, I ended this season wondering what the hell is going on. I too am a dark to dark hunter with the whole season off hunting prime land and considered a good hunter, I'm just not coming across the 3 1/2 to 4 1/2's would expect to see at this point in the plan. I also don't believe we've totally recovered from the 01& 02 winters. Maybe we are not ready for the 3pt rule yet but we should not give up on QDM. There really is no challenge to taking 1 1/2 yo deer, dumbest creatures in the woods! OK w/youth exception though.

[finlessbrown]

it doesn't make alot of sense to me but i used to see 3 or 4 spike bucks every rifle season untill the 3 point rule was introduced. now i have'nt seen a spike in 3 years..... has anyone else noticed this?

[tench]

Shot in the Enosburg Town Forest. I jumped him up on the forest, tracked him, he went across a road, I kept tracking him and two doe he was chasing. They went back up a steep hil into a swamp, I waited for 45 minutes where I could see a bottle neck, shot him at a full run 80 yds away. I got off the beaten path and saw six deer that day. By the way this 4-pointer dressed out at 150lbs and had a 15 inch spread. Public land buck...
I do not agree with increasing the antler restrictions at all, because a lot of areas have a very high possibility of just poor genetics, where a deer fully matures his rack as a 5-6 pointer. Allowing them to grow past a spike does allow them to gain more weight and I'll bet the winter kill is less now. Don't worry guys, I'm going to do a double major I think in forestry and wildlife biology so I'll be dealing with these issues in the future...