Beating a dead horse perhaps...but why are FW&P managing Canyon Ferry

[missoulafish]

Great info Wenger.

[PablitoPescador]

Wenger for FWP director!!! 

[Wenger]

i opened a can of worms. sorry if i got you fired up. should have said it different. i am ready to let this one go.

Naw, you opened a box of Royal Wulffs! 

It's all good, we just need to separate the issues. Guys on here who like walleye fishing are not anti trout. I'd bet we all grew up chasing them and still do. I get hot when when we start in with elitism, I spent years trying to get that through clients heads. I am a dry fly guy, but who cares if someone else is chucking a streamer or rapala? Same for species. Room for all in MT.

[TipUpDown]

So Wenger, you prophesize that cisco are the answer to all of CanyonFerry's forage woes.  Recall that F&G stocked ciscos into Tiber over twenty years ago.  Was that the cure-all for the forage problem there? As an avid walleye angler that spends many days a year on the water there, I would say not. Quite a bit different outcome than Ft Peck.  It's just not that easy. 

[Born Late]

You may argue that FWP management of CF is not yet where you want it to be but it has come a long ways from the pre-walleye boom, trout-centric approach of the late 90s and much of that has been in response to the public.  To choose a defeatist attitude and not respond to a FWP request for comments is an option, just not mine.

Introduction of a forage species does not address the nearly complete absence of submerged or emergent vegetation (i.e. nursery grounds) in CF. Nor does removal of trout from the equation guarantee a departure from the boom/bust cycles of perch and walleye we’re witnessing.

[Wenger]

So Wenger, you prophesize that cisco are the answer to all of CanyonFerry's forage woes.  Recall that F&G stocked ciscos into Tiber over twenty years ago.  Was that the cure-all for the forage problem there? As an avid walleye angler that spends many days a year on the water there, I would say not. Quite a bit different outcome than Ft Peck.  It's just not that easy.

Never claimed to be a prophet.   I am expressing my opinion though. 

The similarities between Peck's problems pre ciscos are remarkable.  Both suffer from seasonal massive water elevation changes. Both suffer(ed) from underutilized nutrients which in Peck ciscos converted into millions of tons of fish.  Both are deep and maintain the right temperature profile. ND and SD did the exact thing except they used smelt.  The point is that they also had a niche that was unused, which was a gap in the food chain.

Worth a try IMO, Tiber or no Tiber.  The potential for success certainly outweighs any potential for it not to work. 

Why do you think managing for reduction in predators, which has clearly not worked should be continued?  But if so, why not encourage them to start gillnetting the walleye out? Imagine that outcry.  Something else needs to be tried in terms of maintaining both the perch and walleye populations. 

Why do you think they never stuck in Tiber and why if we are not to compare Peck to CF, why should we compare Tiber to either CF or Peck? 

I agree, nothing is ever simple. That never stopped me!

[Quantoson]

Hey, Pike and Muskie aren't getting any air time here. 
Plus I did do the survey, it was emailed to me since I am on their emailing list.  Pretty neat.

[Wenger]

You may argue that FWP management of CF is not yet where you want it to be but it has come a long ways from the pre-walleye boom, trout-centric approach of the late 90s and much of that has been in response to the public.  To choose a defeatist attitude and not respond to a FWP request for comments is an option, just not mine.

Introduction of a forage species does not address the nearly complete absence of submerged or emergent vegetation (i.e. nursery grounds) in CF. Nor does removal of trout from the equation guarantee a departure from the boom/bust cycles of perch and walleye we’re witnessing.

I am not for removing trout by any means. They do very well feeding on the midges and other bugs which the walleye do not past a certain size, plus many anglers do target them in all of the reservoirs.  I only have mentioned them in the context of the priorities of FW&P and the hypocrisy of natives vs non natives. If you read their studies and where the money is being spent above Townsend to try to maintain a viable population of browns, it is just not on.

Yes I agree 100% that at least they are acknowledging and trying to manage the walleyes now.   

Introducing a forage species such as ciscos that do NOT depend on vegetation to spawn is my point.  Introduction of say more fatheads or shiners would not work for the reasons you mentioned.  The key is filling the ecological void that an open water dwelling, free spawning forage fish would do.

If you read some of the studies on CF, they claim that perch primarily are spawning in the channels within the delta where the MO braids up. I am not sure how well the Christmas tree program is working out.  Can't hurt.  But we do need to get away from the boom and bust cycles.

[vicster]

The cisco's have done well in Tiber from what I've seen, clouds of them on the flasher during ice season and lots of them in the bellies of pike and Walleye.  There were some lean years after the introduction but the lake seems to have stabilized and has been kicking out some trophy pike the last few years in addition to the state record Walleye.  I think one of the limiting factors there is a lack of good spawning habitat for the eyes, if they did some supplemental stocking to get the numbers up like they do on peck there is plenty of forage.  The lake trout population also seems to be taking off now that they have some deep water food and I hear more stories of people catching them every year.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the Zebra mussels if they take off and start filtering the lake.

[Wenger]

The cisco's have done well in Tiber from what I've seen, clouds of them on the flasher during ice season and lots of them in the bellies of pike and Walleye.  There were some lean years after the introduction but the lake seems to have stabilized and has been kicking out some trophy pike the last few years in addition to the state record Walleye.  I think one of the limiting factors there is a lack of good spawning habitat for the eyes, if they did some supplemental stocking to get the numbers up like they do on peck there is plenty of forage.  The lake trout population also seems to be taking off now that they have some deep water food and I hear more stories of people catching them every year.  It will be interesting to see what happens with the Zebra mussels if they take off and start filtering the lake.

Great to hear.  Hopefully we can keep ZM out of all our waters, I don't believe they found any in CF this year.  They did catch a few boats coming into MT with them.

I had always heard ciscos were helping Tiber quite a bit so I was surprised about the previous response.  I have never fished it myself so have no opinion on what has been going on up there.

[lspower]

Cisco in CF.....like that is EVER going to happen.

[Wenger]

It won't if we don't make the case for them in a unified manner. There is no biological reason not to, just politics and political battles can be won. Make CF Great Agian!   

[Rat Fink]

I won't support Cisco's. I want Smelt. They are so much fun to catch through the ice. It would create a fantastic winter fishery and forage fish.

[mt.redneck]

Montana in the fishing world is known more for fly fishing for trout then it is for a destination for warm water fish. If you hear about anything in a national publication for warm water fishing in mt its for peck usually. Yet if you look up the best trout fisheries in the country usually half the list is rivers in montana. Combine that with a lot of fwp being from other states that probably moved here for the trout fishing, if they fish at all, they are going to push for the revanue from out of staters here for the great trout fishing and the stream access. The younger guys in fwp for the most part are in it for money and power not the benefit of the wildlife and fisheries. How many times do they have public comments and still shove what they want to do down our throats? Montana trout unlimited has a lot of money and pulling power and will influence fwp greatly whenever it can.

[pike_fisherman]

And don’t forget about the guides and outfitters!  Nothing personal Wenger, as I have friends that guide both hunters and fisherpeople, but it sure seems like a lot of them have a lot of pull when it comes to fishing and hunting!

[The Linguist]

If bug eating ciscoes were introduced to CF, then wouldn’t they compete with the stocked rainbows? I can see biologists wanting to avoid another mysis shrimp-like debacle which affected the kokanee fishery on Flathead Lake. While I would like to see a great walleye AND trout fishery at CF, the only way that seems to be possible is to boost the perch population. Good luck with that due to poor perch habitat.

[mt.redneck]

Ciscos main forage is plankton but will eat other bugs like mayflies and midge larva. The rainbows in canyon ferry are mostly stocked and kept fast enough that competition probably isnt going to be a big factor on such a fertile system like the Missouri river system. Unlike the more sterile flathead lake. But making sure to avoid the same rhi g that happened in flathead would be a good idea

[lspower]

If bug eating ciscoes were introduced to CF, then wouldn’t they compete with the stocked rainbows? I can see biologists wanting to avoid another mysis shrimp-like debacle which affected the kokanee fishery on Flathead Lake. While I would like to see a great walleye AND trout fishery at CF, the only way that seems to be possible is to boost the perch population. Good luck with that due to poor perch habitat.

Yes,and anything that competes with trout for food will never be introduced into CF.Its a pipe dream.

[Wenger]

And don’t forget about the guides and outfitters!  Nothing personal Wenger, as I have friends that guide both hunters and fisherpeople, but it sure seems like a lot of them have a lot of pull when it comes to fishing and hunting!

I guided and outfitted for many years and for most of us between the public and the FWP the public usually won.  Take the Bighole and Madison regs as an example.   

[monk38]

The younger guys in fwp for the most part are in it for money and power not the benefit of the wildlife and fisheries.

I get passionate about this stuff too... but  do you really believe this statement? Perhaps I am reading it incorrectly?

[mt.redneck]

I guided and outfitted for many years and for most of us between the public and the FWP the public usually won.  Take the Bighole and Madison regs as an example.   

Out of all the people that fish the horn there is little trout harvest, except maybe with the natives. The fly fishing community on that river is almost strictly catch and release and the river is hurting from a lack of selective harvest.

[Wenger]

Ciscos main forage is plankton but will eat other bugs like mayflies and midge larva. The rainbows in canyon ferry are mostly stocked and kept fast enough that competition probably isnt going to be a big factor on such a fertile system like the Missouri river system. Unlike the more sterile flathead lake. But making sure to avoid the same rhi g that happened in flathead would be a good idea

I agree.  The ciscos would benefit the trout greatly too given they would start eating them when they reached a certain size, say 14 inches or so is my guess based on what I have seen in terms of rainbows in other lakes with abundant forage fish such as shiners (Yellowtail and the Afterbay on the Bighorn for instance) .  The niche that is currently empty in CF is the conversion of excess nutrients, thus plankton thrives to the point that the water becomes green and not even fit to swim in.  Ciscos will convert those nutrients into food for the trout as well as the walleye and perch, while taking the pressure off the perch as the sole forage species of the walleyes. The trout would I suspect, become much larger much quicker just as the rainbows in Peck now reach 15 pounds or more. Just as the Kootani bows that feed on the introduced kokanee which convert zooplankton into trout food.   

I do not think the Flathead is a comparable example because it is totally different than the MO system. There native trout were decimated by the introductions, same as Yellowstone Lake.  In the MO all the fish are introduced non natives, from top to bottom.  That said Flathead and others over in Bull Trout country have FWP spooked to the point they don't even want to consider forage plants.  Be it lack of courage, the avoidance of responsibility, keeping one's head low (all typical organizational behaviors in government and business) or just plain being part of the "new no new species" attitude.  CF has upstream barriers in Toston Dam plus no suitable habitat for ciscos to colonize.  Downstream there are two reservoirs that would be colonized and thus benefit, and then there are several hundred miles of uncolonized river habitat that flows into Peck with its  massive numbers of ciscos.   

 

[Wenger]

Out of all the people that fish the horn there is little trout harvest, except maybe with the natives. The fly fishing community on that river is almost strictly catch and release and the river is hurting from a lack of selective harvest.

Yup. Mostly catch and release with most fly fishermen, but not by regulation.  There is indeed quite a bit of catch and take on the Bighorn by the Crow folks.  The Bighole and Madison there are very few trout kept in my experience, nor many on the Yellowstone either. 

Now, on the Bighorn there is a about 90% keep rate with walleyes that are flushed through the afterbay I would bet based on knowing most of the guides there and having spent many an evening chucking rapalas below the Afterbay.   

[Cgasner1]

Would be nice to have a good size body of water other than peck to walleye fish especially if we get big dumps on snow and parts of peck are unreachable for most guys and I’m sure the surrounding business would benefit from a big ice crowd spending money in the winter on burgers and hotels seems like a win win to me and how many guys are fly fishing canyon ferry would make sense to put something in that would self sustain and quit wasting money and make some money for the area instead

[mt.redneck]

Yup. Mostly catch and release with most fly fishermen, but not by regulation.  There is indeed quite a bit of catch and take on the Bighorn by the Crow folks.  The Bighole and Madison there are very few trout kept in my experience, nor many on the Yellowstone either. 


Now, on the Bighorn there is a about 90% keep rate with walleyes that are flushed through the afterbay I would bet based on knowing most of the guides there and having spent many an evening chucking rapalas below the Afterbay.

The Catch and release only mentality of most of the fly fishing usually starts to hurt fisheries over time, the trout on the bighorn for example. People have no problem keeping the pike, walleyes and smallmouth bass on the horn cause they think it will help the trout population  but keeping more of the apex predators in the horn will more thn likely help the horn by helping to reduce trout numbers and bring the quality back up. Pike would help the bighorn out and also canyon ferry, along with a good forage fish population. Fwp would have a gold mine if they would stop the war on the pike, manage canyon ferry for big pike, walleye and perch, the big rainbows are close by in the system and there is a nice town close by for lodging, food and bringing a family on a trip. Im convinced part of the reason peck is so good isnit is in the middle of nowhere and in comparison to other lakes close to more people dosent get hammered as hard as other fisheries. It also has the advantage of being a small inland sea. There has to be a correct balance of apex predators, forage fish and bug life to sustain a top quality fishery and canyon ferry is missing 2 of those

[Born Late]

The younger guys in fwp for the most part are in it for money and power not the benefit of the wildlife and fisheries.

I can’t speak for the younger guys but I certainly pursued wildlife biology degrees in my quest for independent wealth and world domination. 

[mt.redneck]

I can’t speak for the younger guys but I certainly pursued wildlife biology degrees in my quest for independent wealth and world domination. 

I helped at a shocking a few years ago and there were 2 kids there that were trying to get their degrees to become fisheries biologists and they barely knew the fish species we were sampling so.......

[Born Late]

http://montanauntamed.com/fishing/article_cd2bb2df-270d-550a-a17e-da03c58e6d2a.html

[lspower]

LOL @ the guy doing the flip off nose scratch in the pic. 

[RuralMT]

https://www.thewesternnews.com/outdoors/20181218/fwp_will_leave_noxon_walleye_to_anglers

Did anyone else see this article?  Do you think FWP decided to finally listen to local opinion or do you think something else prompt this?