Author Topic: Ice Thickness Device  (Read 5902 times)

Offline Roacho

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Ice Thickness Device
« on: Jan 24, 2006, 03:23 PM »
Any ideas on a device that could be used to check the thickness of ice without drilling holes. 

Example:  Drive by a lake everyday on the way to work.  Would like to drive by and look at the device and see the ice thickness. 

Any ideas?
I'd rather be fishing!
www.elroacho.com
Rowley, MA

Offline bwalleye

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #1 on: Jan 24, 2006, 03:26 PM »
DI NO MYTE its TNT.... ;D

I'm so so sorry >:D
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Offline Flash_King

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #2 on: Jan 24, 2006, 03:34 PM »
Go fishing with two other fishermen who weigh 50lb+ more than you - let them walk first!  LOL
GOOD LUCK - GOOD FISHING

Offline 1TIGGER

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #3 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:23 PM »
   ???  Not possible to do without a hole !  ???

Offline bwalleye

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #4 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:34 PM »
It would be cool though. 
The moon is much smaller than the earth, however, it is much farther away.

Offline jrelaxin

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #5 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:36 PM »
try a hand chissel............... ..... ;D
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Offline reelbigfish

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #6 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:44 PM »
  A super sharp spud bar will tel you how thick the ice is or isn't in a hurry.  If it
goes through in 1 or 2 wacks think lite thoughts.  :o :o :o









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Offline Coastie

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #7 on: Jan 24, 2006, 04:51 PM »
Oh it could be done $$$$$ Just have to have the mind of an engineer and the willingness to go crazy trying to figure it out! Damn you Roacho.

hali-man

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #8 on: Jan 24, 2006, 05:07 PM »
Maybe something like those pop-up thermometers on poultry ???
Made out of a material that won't freeze in the ice and floats ???

Offline archbishop

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #9 on: Jan 24, 2006, 05:29 PM »
Maybe something like those pop-up thermometers on poultry ???
Made out of a material that won't freeze in the ice and floats ???

that wouldnt be a bad idea mike, you should get a patent before icegeek figures out how to do it ;D

Offline gair-z

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #10 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:01 PM »
they make them but I would think you would have to know the density(or specific gravity) of the ice.    we use them to measure steel webbing on I beams but they come with the density (or specific gravity) of steel plugged into them..  I haven't used one in a while so I don't know if you can change the dens (or sg) or not.. 
and I forget the name of them..  If I remember I'll look at work tomorrow and fiddle with one..    I'm sure they're outta anybody's price range though..  put it this way, would ya rather have an ice measuring device or a new vex, shanty, 10 rods, sled, etc..   ;)
gair-z 
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Offline Lobes

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #11 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:10 PM »
Yea.  Lets see................... .
Thermo device like they use in police helicopters looking for suspects on foot at night.
Senses on temperature gradients.
Ice is 32F or below.
Water is 33F or above.
Probably not.

Hmmmmm................ .radar gun??????
sound travels through air at ........
a = sqrt [g * R * T]

a = speed of sound
g = ratio of specific heats (1.4 for air @ STP)
R = gas constant (286 meters squared x s2 x degrees Kelvin for air)
T = absolute temp (degrees Kelvin)

Sound travels through ice..............

Now factor in the wavelength of the sound produced by the radar gun.

Maybe.

Hey.  Come on.  Anyone else want to help here.

MAc


Wait a minute!

I thought that water in the frozen state did not get below 32 F. I always though just it's surface temperature would get colder. I suppose it could possibly vary depending on its content composition due to impurities or something along those lines. But even then based on the theory of mutual attraction it seems the water would separate from any other solutions where their molecules were still in motion at the moment the water became frozen.
An example of comparison I can think of is when I tried to store a batch of homebrew at 30 F and most of it froze. The alcohol content of that batch went through the roof? Two 12 ouncers of that stuff and I was PLASTERED!!
???

Mecosta County / Lakeview, Michigan

Offline taxi1

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #12 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:15 PM »
Any ideas on a device that could be used to check the thickness of ice without drilling holes. 

Example:  Drive by a lake everyday on the way to work.  Would like to drive by and look at the device and see the ice thickness. 

Any ideas?

Doesn't sound that far fetched considering we now have infrared thermometers that can measure surface water temps just by pointing them toward the water. No need to submerge them. And we also have remote sensors you can plant in water bodies to keep track of water temps, and they send a signal to your home PC up to 1000 feet away. You can even graph the temps on your P.C. Not that expensive either. I have other priorities right now, but I want to do this in my trout pond in the future and can setup up to 10 sensors at different depths at a time. I'm going to write a book on setting up your own backyard trout pond but I need some data.

Seems to me if there isn't one already you could permanently plant a buoy with a sensor on it to measure ice thickness and relay it back to a receiver. Most likely a vertical chain of sensors from surface down a foot or two that are activated when the ice contracts around them. The deepest sensor that has contraction around it would tell you the thickness of the ice.

Most likely if it's made it's made by a company I know of in Massachusetts. Maybe Roach works there?

I live in the midwest now but have fond memories of fishing in New England as a kid.

Offline IceGeek

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #13 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:22 PM »
It can be done by regular optical means, although getting the auger out is probably easier!

below are a couple of abstracts and info.  You need an understanding of synthetic aperture radar, and interferrometric techniques in general....There is also a publication listed from a group working at the Unversity of Buffalo where I am located dealing specifically with this issue

Determining depth and ice thickness of shallow sub-Arctic lakes using space-borne optical and SAR data
Authors: Duguay C.R.1; Lafleur P.M.2

Source: International Journal of Remote Sensing, Volume 24, Number 3, February 10, 2003, pp. 475-489(15)

Publisher:Taylor and Francis Ltd

< previous article | next article > View Table of Contents
      
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Abstract:

An approach to determine depth and ice thickness of shallow lakes and ponds using Landsat Thematic Mapper (TM) and European Remote Sensing (ERS)-1 Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) data is presented. A summertime Landsat TM image is used to map lake bathymetry and multi-date ERS-1 images acquired during winter are utilized to determine when and which lakes freeze to the bottom during winter. The two remotely sensed derived products are then combined to estimate ice thickness from lakes and ponds on a monthly basis. The approach has been developed and tested successfully in a sub-Arctic tundra-forest landscape in the Hudson Bay Lowland near Churchill, Manitoba, Canada. Lake depth estimates derived from Landsat TM band 2 generally compared well with measurements obtained in the field, especially in the tundra zone [rms error (RMSE) = 15 cm]. Maximum ice thickness estimates were also within the range of those typically measured during winter in this study area (tundra and forest-tundra zones  1.6 m; open forest zone  1.2 m). Results indicate that the approach is particularly well suited for estimating depth and ice thickness of shallow oligotrophic and ultra-oligotrophic lakes that are widespread in many regions above treeline. However, the results also suggest that the Landsat-based approach will require further testing and improvement if one wishes to map bathymetry for shallow lakes in which large nutrient concentrations or amounts of suspended sediments are found.
Document Type: Research article

Affiliations: 1: Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Fairbanks, Alaska 99775-7320, USA; e-mail: [email protected] 2: Department of Geography, Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario, Canada K9J 7B8



Great Lakes CoastWatch Research and Product Development
George Leshkevich

Objectives-- Within Great Lakes CoastWatch, research and applications development utilizing imagery from new satellite sensors such as synthetic aperture radar (SAR) for ice classification and mapping and ocean color sensors such as the Sea Viewing Wide Field-of-View Sensor (SeaWiFS) for ocean color (chlorophyll) products complements the Great Lakes CoastWatch Program. These improvements are needed to enhance the Great Lakes CoastWatch product suite, to develop regional products and applications for the Great Lakes, and to contribute to the operational responsibilities of sister agencies such as the U.S. Coast Guard and National Weather Service.

 
Classified ERS-2 Scene (22 March 1997) Corrected for Power Loss and Local Incidence Angle Effect

:

1) SAR research and field experiment in FY2003 involving ground truth data collection on Lake Superior (concurrent with RADARSAT and ENVISAT overflight) for (a) validation of ice type classification algorithm for SAR data (b) development of interferrometric methods for ice thickness measurements (c) experimentation with ENVISAT dual polarized data for ice classification problem areas (d) validation of ice type classification algorithm for QuikSCAT scatterometer data.

2) Collaboration with researchers at the German DLR is being explored to investigate the application of a neural network based on a bio-optical model to the retrieval of chlorophyll, suspended sediment, and dissolved organic matter in the Great Lakes from satellite ocean color imagery (SeaWiFS or MODIS).


QuikSCAT scatterometer project: A site on Lake Superior (Granite Island near Marquette, MI) to mount a web cam to collect "ground truth" of ice type and movement was identified and installation of the camera took place during the 2002 winter season. Owing to a mild ice season last winter, no data was collected that season. As ice conditions were normal to severe this past (2002-03) ice season, except for a short outage in February, images were collected every 30 degrees in a 270 degree field of view every hour during daylight hours. The images will be used to "ground truth" QuikSCAT scatterometer imagery in the development of an ice classification and mapping algorithm using QuikSCAT data. (See report: Great Lakes Ice Mapping With Satellite Scatterometer Data).


Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) Research: RADARSAT data acquired during our 1997 field experiment has been acquired and calibrated by Satlantic, Inc. Analysis of this data using our library of C band polarimetric backscatter data is continuing, but the ice classification algorithm needs further validation, which is planned for this winter season, as last season was a very mild ice season.

Moreover, working cooperatively with scientists at JHU/APL, software to calibrate the RADARSAT ScanSAR Wide A data (block averaged) received at GLERL near real-time via the National Ice Center has been obtained from the Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory and configured to run on a SUN computer at GLERL. The JHU/APL developed the software in their effort to derive and map coastal winds from RADARSAT data, where accurately calibrated data is also needed. Output converted to dB will be tested with our library of ice signatures. If successful, ice classified, color coded RADARSAT images will be put on the web this ice season for NWS and USCG use.

Great Lakes Winter Experiment 2002 (GLAWEX'02): The Great LAkes Winter EXperiment 2002 conducted by George A. Leshkevich (NOAA/OAR/GLERL) together with colleague Son V. Nghiem (NASA/JPL) with the participation of NASA's AIRSAR Science Team, Airborne Science DC-8 aircraft, and the U.S. Coast Guard icebreaker, USCGC Mackinaw, was successfully completed March 22, 2002. In over 40 hours of flight time, polarimetric and interferometric C, L, and P band Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) data was collected over various ice types/thickness in several locations on the Great Lakes along with concurrent in situ measurements of ice/snow type, ice thickness, and density. The ice/snow characteristics collected will be compared with the airborne AIRSAR data taken simultaneously. Data gathered during this experiment will be used to develop algorithms to map Great Lakes ice types and ice thickness using current and future satellite sensors. This information has applications in ice forecasting and modeling, climate and winter ecology research, hazard mitigation, as well as operational use.

2001 Accomplishments
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)

RADARSAT data acquired during our 1997 field experiment has been acquired and calibrated by Satlantic, Inc. Analysis of this data using our library of C band polarimetric backscatter data is continuing, but the ice classification algorithm needs further validation, which is planned for this winter season. Our proposal to NESDIS to map/classify Great Lakes ice cover using QuikSCAT scatterometer data was funded. A site on Lake Superior to mount a web cam to collect "ground truth" of ice type and movement has been identified and installation of the camera is proceeding for use this winter season.


2000 Accomplishments
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)

ERS-2 satellite SAR data acquired during the 1997 field experiment (together with the C-band ice backscatter measurements) was reprocessed using an improved calibration algorithm. The reprocessing using the new algorithm not only corrects for power loss (in the ERS-2 instrument) but also takes into account local incident angles (from 19.5 degrees to 26.5 degrees). The classified ERS-2 SAR image appears to be more accurate than the previous classification based on the ground truth data collected during the experiment, but the ice classification algorithm needs further validation, which is planned for the future.

Ocean Color

Collection of optical data and water samples continued to enhance the data base for statistical purposes. However, based on the previous analysis of measured chlorophyll data compared with output from four SeaWiFS chlorophyll algorithms (no atmospheric effects) and output from SeaDAS processed SeaWiFS satellite data (with atmospheric correction), it was found that returned chlorophyll values were highly variable in time and space. This could be due to what appears to be three coastal regimes in the Great Lakes: Case I (open ocean of second order), Case II (coastal), and Case III (highly turbid) and that chlorophyll is often not the major colorant. Although atmospheric correction algorithms have been improved, it appears that the chlorophyll ratioing algorithms themselves and not the atmospheric correction are the cause of the variable chlorophyll values (as the input remote sensing reflectance values were measured (in situ) values having no atmospheric affects).


Optical data (using Satlantic radiometer) and water samples (to obtain chlorophyll, TSM, DOC, POC) were collected on Lakes Superior, Michigan, and Erie for ground truth to allow ocean color algorithm development using SeaWiFS satellite data. This will lead to a remote sensing method for mapping chlorophyll distribution in the Great Lakes.


Shen, H., S. Nghiem, G.A. Leshkevich, and M. Manore. 1998. A summary of current remote sensing and modeling capabilities of the Great Lakes ice conditions. Understanding Great Lakes Issues, 98-11. Great Lakes Program, State University of New York at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY, 10pp.

Nghiem, S.V., G.A. Leshkevich, and R. Kwok. 1998. Satellite SAR Remote Sensing of the Great Lakes Ice Cover. Final Technical Report, JPL Project No. 56, NASA / Jet Propulsion Laboratory.



  

hali-man

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #14 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:25 PM »
I could drill 10 holes in the time it takes to read that (much less understand it!).  ;D

Offline IceGeek

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #15 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:26 PM »
That's why I said it's probably easier to just use your auger!....did you ever get your auger fixed!  ;)

Offline archbishop

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #16 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:34 PM »
I could drill 10 holes in the time it takes to read that (much less understand it!).  ;D
see mike, i told you to get a patent before bob seen this thread, now i gotta get out my ditionary to read that ;D

That's why I said it's probably easier to just use your auger!....did you ever get your auger fixed!  ;)
lol, iguess his hatchet is a much easier way than to read your post bob ;D

we will figure it out this weekend, see you guys then, if im done reading that post :o :tipup:

Offline taxi1

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #17 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:35 PM »
That's why I said it's probably easier to just use your auger!....did you ever get your auger fixed!  ;)

No necessarily. If you had sensor planted and all you had to do was point at it and read a digital readout how much easier could that be?

As you've indicated it's already been done and being done. Nasa is working on sensors as we speak for ice thickness measurements for other purposes.  


http://www.teccenter.org/assets/pdf/ice_gauge.pdf


I live in the midwest now but have fond memories of fishing in New England as a kid.

Offline IceGeek

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #18 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:44 PM »
That would be easier...but you would need one for each body of water....then you would like to know the composition of the ice also..is it good hard black ice or does it have alot of air incorporated into it?....SAR would be able to tell you the composition also, and I would guess in 20 years or less we will have access to the data in a real-time format the way things are going.  That's about the time it takes before the government is done with the technology and they release it to the general public.....

Offline Roacho

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #19 on: Jan 24, 2006, 06:52 PM »
Great Ideas!  Keep them coming. 

Key is to be able to see the measurement visually. 

Were working on this so Coastie can just roll over in bed and doesn't have to put on the long johns and sorels. 
I'd rather be fishing!
www.elroacho.com
Rowley, MA

Offline fishnut

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #20 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:04 PM »
How to tell if ice is safe to walk on(3 inches):  

Ya know what I do? I Just throw a big rock on the ice from shore, and if it makes a solid "bang" noise then it's probably safe to walk on.  If it lands on the ice and you hear the ice start to vibrate underneith it, it's probably weak.  That's how I tell.  The bigger you are, the bigger the rock you'll need.  You'll eventually time it right with some practice.  

Here's how you tell if the ice is thick enough for drving on(9 inches):

Walk out onto the ice and ly down and measure the length of ice where the cracks are with your finger, lying face down.  I'f it's black ice then you're probably SOL.  If the cracks are longer than your finger, it's probably more than 9 inches.  Again, practice makes perfect.
fishing - It's a religion, not a sport.

Offline IceGeek

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #21 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:08 PM »
Just wondering how many attempts it took to figure out that when the cracks are longer than your fingers you can drive on it!!!  Either you got some really long fingers or you've been pretty lucky

Offline fwalch

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #22 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:10 PM »
be leery -- a sensor measuring 12" of ice with an underwater spring 5' away  :-[ :-[ :-[  with lawsuits nowadays, i can't imagine a company that would market it -- sure the technology is there.

Offline fishnut

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #23 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:19 PM »
Just wondering how many attempts it took to figure out that when the cracks are longer than your fingers you can drive on it!!!  Either you got some really long fingers or you've been pretty lucky

I meant that cracks in the ice that go down a certain ways have to be a certain number of Inches.  Take your auger and drill a few holes to get an estamite.  Once you have the finger/crack lenth right, you then have your own estimates. Practice it 10 or 12 times, and you'll find your estimates will be very close.
fishing - It's a religion, not a sport.

Offline ifishhi

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #24 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:33 PM »
send out your buddy. ;D

M.P.H.C. freedomfighter #000004

billybono

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #25 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:44 PM »
i think you have a better chance of seeing a lightsabre developed.....now that would work great ;)



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Offline bwalleye

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #26 on: Jan 24, 2006, 07:47 PM »
May the force be with you.......... ;D
The moon is much smaller than the earth, however, it is much farther away.

Offline JerryofWNY

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #27 on: Jan 24, 2006, 08:49 PM »
Hey IG - You making up that jargon as you go???? :-\
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bigdave1018

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #28 on: Jan 25, 2006, 05:16 AM »
maybe a portable drill with at least a 6 in bit?

Offline IceGeek

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Re: Ice Thickness Device
« Reply #29 on: Jan 25, 2006, 07:01 AM »
unfortunately not Jerry.....I'm a full time nerd...Pays the bills though so that's all that counts

 



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