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Montana => Ice Fishing Montana => Topic started by: Wenger on Mar 22, 2019, 06:02 PM

Title: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 22, 2019, 06:02 PM
https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/news/environment/fwp-proposes-killing-smallmouth-bass-in-gallatin-valley-pond/article_28cb364a-360c-5332-a67e-63db1f93896e.html

Because they worry someone would dump a couple  bass into the Lower Madison.   :-\

Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: wingnutty on Mar 22, 2019, 06:13 PM
In this case I would say good, kill them.  The damage they would potentially do to the financially valuable trout fishery would be beyond repair.  I love smallmouth, they have their place, but that place should be where they are permanently entrenched, not in isolated pockets surrounded by world-class trout fisheries.  A few small ponds within an otherwise trout-dominated valley are a good place to snuff out a source of potential contamination.

This is not a case of war on warmwater species...it is a case of war on bucket biologists!
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 22, 2019, 06:33 PM
If you look at the bigger picture is indeed a continuation of the FWP war on warm water species.  How a government agency can simply assume someone will plant them in the Lower Madison is beyond me.  Yes this is a private pond, and they have the authority to do what they want to an extent.  But guess what, they are the same people who stocked Three Forks Ponds with bass a few hundred yards from the Lower Madison.  It is the same agency that waged war on walleyes on several Montana waters which have turned into massive economic engines locally. 

If someone really wanted bass in the Lower there are many places from which to get a few. 

I used to guide on the Lower a lot, and we are talking about perhaps twenty miles max that are even viable trout habitat, and even that is closed because it gets far too far by June most years.  This is not a excuse for bucket biology, but rather against the current mindset in Helena.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: FinalSwim on Mar 22, 2019, 11:31 PM
Protecting non native fish from non native fish? 
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Mar 23, 2019, 09:06 AM
in some places it is a war on warm water species.look what fwp did to the mighty mo. walleye below holter dam to cascade no limit.if that is not a effort to remove walleye from that area of the river i dont know what is.money talks it made the outfitters happy.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: KDW on Mar 23, 2019, 09:24 AM
  I am always amazed at the arrogance of FWP fishing experts who think they can actually control all things water
related. If it is going to happen its going to happen. The outdoors are way bigger and more complex then they will
ever realize. Am sure one could bring a bucket of bad fish home from Peck just as easy as River Rock. I personally
hope no one would ever do it but it would not be that hard. The next war will be when they tell us we can no longer
trap minnows for bait because we are not smart enough to know what we are doing.

Ken
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 23, 2019, 09:31 AM
Protecting non native fish from non native fish?

Indeed.  A great point.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: PerchPounderMT on Mar 23, 2019, 11:20 AM
Protecting non native fish from non native fish?
Thats exactly what they are doing.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Cheddar dog on Mar 23, 2019, 11:21 AM
If they want to protect the water from invasive things....get rid of the fishing guides. They’ve impacted the waters more than anything. 😂😂😂
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 23, 2019, 02:32 PM
If they want to protect the water from invasive things....get rid of the fishing guides. They’ve impacted the waters more than anything. 😂😂😂

In what manner?  Clients catching too many fish?  I don't understand this sportsman on sportsman violence.... ???
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: monk38 on Mar 23, 2019, 03:12 PM
i never thought about the three forks ponds... that is a very good point.  When did FWP put them in there? they could almost jump in the madison from there.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: REDin13 on Mar 23, 2019, 05:36 PM
another example of the lack of consistency in a management plan. yes, its replacing a non-native with another non-native. if you look at the states stocking plan, it allows stocking non-native fish within a drainage that already contains that non-native. but should it to continue be done? what about using cutthroat instead of rainbow? and what of the east gallatin rec area pond. it contains several non-native fish and is very close to the gallatin river. will this pond be next?
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 23, 2019, 05:39 PM
Agree 100%. 
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: meandcuznalfy on Mar 23, 2019, 06:12 PM
another example of the lack of consistency in a management plan. yes, its replacing a non-native with another non-native. if you look at the states stocking plan, it allows stocking non-native fish within a drainage that already contains that non-native. but should it to continue be done? what about using cutthroat instead of rainbow? and what of the east gallatin rec area pond. it contains several non-native fish and is very close to the gallatin river. will this pond be next?
Could be, surprised they haven't done it yet.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: KDW on Mar 23, 2019, 08:45 PM
 I don't understand this sportsman on sportsman violence.


      100 percent correct, the one thing we don't need is fishing guys picking at fishing guys. The outdoors are to rich
and amazing to be explored only the way I want it.

Ken
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: fridayfish on Mar 24, 2019, 11:51 AM
In what manner?  Clients catching too many fish?  I don't understand this sportsman on sportsman violence.... ???

did you miss the 3 smiley faces after his comment? not exactly violence. that being said are you confused on the impact of heavy numbers of fishing guides?
 eyesores on the water. relentless pressure on the fish. guides sell fishing opportunities for cash. fisherman should have to find there own fish like everyone else. should the rich catch more fish than the good? doesn't seem right to me.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 24, 2019, 01:52 PM
Not confused at all...but you seem pretty tense.  The term violence was not to be taken literally obviously. 

Firstly it seems you have no idea that guides provide a service for those fellow sportsmen  who can't or do not want to fish on their own.  Those fellow sportsmen have just as much right to fish as you do, even if they are elderly, novices or evil "rich" folks.

 An eyesore?  What exactly do you mean? Yes I was perhaps the ugliest guide on the river but was never called an eyesore! ::)

Pressure on the fish. Given the nature of fish if they are pressured they don't eat.  Seems to me they eat just fine if you claim clients catch all the fish.  The key is knowing how to catch them, guides do this they are guides.  I can't tell you how many flies and advice I gave away on the river while guiding when someone asked what what was working.  You know all those boat ramps and access points?  Guides pay for them as well as for all the permits...they subsidize your fishing. In twenty years of guiding I know of six instances in which guides saved others from drowning, including one gal I pulled out of sweeper after her mini pontoon was sucked into it.  I nearly lost my own life doing so and she was half drowned.  Those folks all were pretty happy to have guides on the river that day.


Sorry you have a problem with the well to do, jealousy, capitalism and the opportunity to succeed in the USA.  Ask anyone in Ennis, Craig, Fort Smith or Livingston where those economies would be if not for fly fishing guides. Ask folks like Kibbler's  or Clint how they would make ends meet if not for guiding on Peck?  You want to tell them to their faces that they are ruining your fishing? 

Can you explain just how guided clients have ruined fishing for you? Please, I am seriously curious.

That is what I was talking about.

Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Mar 24, 2019, 02:59 PM
wenger what about the to many drift boats on the water that you can hardly motor up river and waiting for the long line outfitter drift boats to put in before you can take your boat out. outfitting has spoiled the upper mo forever. also you might not be a eye sore but all those boats sure are.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Born Late on Mar 24, 2019, 03:08 PM
You know all those boat ramps and access points?  Guides pay for them as well as for all the permits...they subsidize your fishing...

Sorry you have a problem with the well to do, jealousy, capitalism and the opportunity to succeed in the USA.  Ask anyone in Ennis, Craig, Fort Smith or Livingston where those economies would be if not for fly fishing guides.

Puh-leeeease. Please share with the group what you paid annually for “all the permits” to utilize a public resource for your income. A guide license and annual FAS permit is available for an effin pittance.

The economies in the aforementioned towns are what they are because of the trout, not trout guides. Someone’s pretty full of himself.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 24, 2019, 03:52 PM
I'm full of myself eh?  For making a reasonable response to people who have no idea what they are talking about IMO?

Those towns depend on guiding wether you like it or not.  Outfitting contributes more to the MT economy than cattle. That means thousands and thousands of jobs outside of guiding. When the Yellowstone was shut down for two months a few years back it caused a declared economic disaster for Livingston with a multi million dollar hit for hotels, restaurants, shuttle drivers...you name it.  It cost people their jobs.  Recently when FWP held hearing about restricting guide trips on the Upper Madison the businessmen in town of Ennis testified it would have a very hurtful effect on their town.

$100 bucks for the public use permits, $300 bucks for my outfitter license, $100 buck each for my guides. Madison permits, Big Hole. Beaverhead permits etc.  Then there is the pile of paperwork required. Anything else you want to know?

You do understand that it is the clients who fish, and they have exactly the same rights to do so as you do wether they can row a boat or not or if they want to learn to fish or  not.  Stop being so selfish. Your sense of self entitlement as to who you do not want to share our waters with is just plain wrong. That or have the balls to get in the face of every guide you meet on the river...I know that you would not.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 24, 2019, 04:06 PM
wenger what about the to many drift boats on the water that you can hardly motor up river and waiting for the long line outfitter drift boats to put in before you can take your boat out. outfitting has spoiled the upper mo forever. also you might not be a eye sore but all those boats sure are.

Oh trust me I am an eyesore! ;D

Not sure which part of the "upper" MO you are speaking of (Craig or Toston?)  but I never had to wait at any access for more than few boats, other than a few times when rafters had all their gear spread on the ramp and were trying to figure out how to pump up their boat. Seriously, besides the dam access when the water is super high and the Dearborn is dumping there are not huge lines at any access.  I used to guide on the Bighorn a lot, and the upper 13 miles gets more boat traffic than any water in the state, and even taking the wait is not more than a few trailers. Even so if it is busy the guides and their clients don't jump the line nor are they slow. (And they actually can back a trailer!) ;D

Have you seen how many tubers and rec floaters there are on a hot summer day on the MO, floating through trico pods and screwing up the fishing? Well guides understand they also have a right to enjoy the river and work around them.  You also need to recognize that 20 years ago not that many people had drift boats, there was very little weekender traffic on most rivers. Now every Tom, Dick and Harry has a drift boat or raft and the traffic on the Yellowstone has quadrupled.  Carters Bridge at Livingston is so full of non guide boats on weekends the parking is up and down the road all the way to 89S and fills the loop road on the West side across the bridge. Same for Pine Creek, 89N, Springdale and Grey Owl. You won't hear guides complaining about that either, they work around it.     

Claiming the Mo is ruined forever is a stretch.  It is like Yogi Berra saying "nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded".   
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Born Late on Mar 24, 2019, 04:33 PM

$100 bucks for the public use permits, $300 bucks for my outfitter license, $100 buck each for my guides. Madison permits, Big Hole. Beaverhead permits etc. Anything else you want to know?

Yep. How much you did you pay annually for commercial float permits on the rivers you mentioned?
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Mar 24, 2019, 05:02 PM
wenger, below holter. the last time(and i mean the last time i sold my boat after that) there were 18 drift boats between the campground below the dam and prickly pear creek. that is a bit much. they have turned it into basically into drift boats only. i do not care how much money outfitting brings in my fishing time on the river was priceless. and by the way they have infested the river down to cascade.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: PerchPounderMT on Mar 25, 2019, 08:26 AM
wenger what about the to many drift boats on the water that you can hardly motor up river and waiting for the long line outfitter drift boats to put in before you can take your boat out. outfitting has spoiled the upper mo forever. also you might not be a eye sore but all those boats sure are.
Lets not forget them posting up right above our decoys on a regular basis,morons see your deeks,hear you shooting and then act like they are being done wrong after they anchor and start fishing within 100 yards of your spread.The problem is that they think the river was put there for their monetary gain and nothing more.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Mizayikaa on Mar 26, 2019, 09:53 PM
   Outfitting contributes more to the MT economy than cattle.
$100 bucks for the public use permits, $300 bucks for my outfitter license, $100 buck each for my guides. Madison permits, Big Hole. Beaverhead permits etc.  Then there is the pile of paperwork required. Anything else you want to know?

Like to be a fly on the wall of any ranchers house that read this. Hope that $400 + per didn't harm your business too bad. What an f-ing joke.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: missoulafish on Mar 27, 2019, 12:32 AM
I'd rather have a state full of cows...
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Cornbread on Mar 27, 2019, 09:12 AM
Outfitting doesn't contribute to anywhere even close to what the state brings in from livestock. Montana's agriculture and livestock industry brought in just under 4 billion a year in revenue to the state in 2015. 2.1 billion of that is livestock alone. In 2017 guided trips brought in 791 million dollars. That's still OVER A BILLION dollars less than what the livestock industry alone brings in, and it is OVER THREE BILLION less than what livestock plus ag brings in. The guided trips figure includes: rafting, kayaking, fishing, horseback riding, hiking, hunting, wildlife viewing, outdoor ed, backpacking, and photography. If you want to just include fishing and hunting it is far less than that. The statement that the outfitting industry brings in more revenue than livestock in Montana is so far out of the ballpark it isn't even on the same planet.

https://agr.mt.gov/AgFacts

https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1376&context=itrr_pubs
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: fridayfish on Mar 27, 2019, 03:44 PM
Not confused at all...but you seem pretty tense.  The term violence was not to be taken literally obviously. 

Firstly it seems you have no idea that guides provide a service for those fellow sportsmen  who can't or do not want to fish on their own.  Those fellow sportsmen have just as much right to fish as you do, even if they are elderly, novices or evil "rich" folks.

 An eyesore?  What exactly do you mean? Yes I was perhaps the ugliest guide on the river but was never called an eyesore! ::)

Pressure on the fish. Given the nature of fish if they are pressured they don't eat.  Seems to me they eat just fine if you claim clients catch all the fish.  The key is knowing how to catch them, guides do this they are guides.  I can't tell you how many flies and advice I gave away on the river while guiding when someone asked what what was working.  You know all those boat ramps and access points?  Guides pay for them as well as for all the permits...they subsidize your fishing. In twenty years of guiding I know of six instances in which guides saved others from drowning, including one gal I pulled out of sweeper after her mini pontoon was sucked into it.  I nearly lost my own life doing so and she was half drowned.  Those folks all were pretty happy to have guides on the river that day.


Sorry you have a problem with the well to do, jealousy, capitalism and the opportunity to succeed in the USA.  Ask anyone in Ennis, Craig, Fort Smith or Livingston where those economies would be if not for fly fishing guides. Ask folks like Kibbler's  or Clint how they would make ends meet if not for guiding on Peck?  You want to tell them to their faces that they are ruining your fishing? 

Can you explain just how guided clients have ruined fishing for you? Please, I am seriously curious.

That is what I was talking about.
settle down there Wenger. you're seeming the one tense here. and you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I realize guides and client are just trying to live they're dream like the rest of us. its just different from the fishing that I know...no doubt clients come in all shapes and sizes and some are worse than others. just like the guides.

"Firstly it seems you have no idea that guides provide a service for those fellow sportsmen  who can't or do not want to fish on their own."... it does?...

"Pressure on the fish. Given the nature of fish if they are pressured they don't eat." ... well this is part of the point. how am I supposed to catch them if their not eating? how will they grow up to be big and strong? this is part of the impact.

"Can you explain just how guided clients have ruined fishing for you? "...  I did,and "ruined" is a strong word. its just getting harder and harder to get out on the river and enjoy the solitude before here come yet another. and of coarse I have to smile and say hi hows it going? again. I like to see 1 or 2 and 3 is ok. but eventually enough is enough. its not solitude anymore. see?
now I am going to say something that might be upsetting...in a way being a guide is like being a sell out. in a way you let down your fellow sportsman when you sell these "opportunities" or information, or "secrets" that most sportsman work there whole life to build...for money. its different from teaching your kids or sharing with friends..."in a way". sorry if that hurts. I didn't really want to have to say it. I actually feel terrible about it. I know its not really fair to blame the guides when there are just more fishermen then there used to be but guiding seems that much worse because of it. oh well.

but really I don't hate guides or the clients. I probably have as much or more in common with them as with anybody.glad we got that cleared up. I almost started getting long winded...and good luck this summer living the dream.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Born 2 Jig on Mar 28, 2019, 08:50 AM
Wenger Quote:  "I'm full of myself eh?  For making a reasonable response to people who have no idea what they are talking about IMO? "

No...you are full of yourself for making comments like this...

"Outfitting contributes more to the MT economy than cattle."

Probably the most ignorant comment I've ever heard!  :o

...and as far as telling guides to their face how I feel about them? No problem. As long as you tell every rancher you see that same line about how outfitting is more important than raising livestock.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Doeslayer on Mar 28, 2019, 09:04 AM
This has got to be the most ignorant thread I've ever seen....  Go catch a fish and quit arguing like teenage girls....
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Mar 28, 2019, 11:54 AM
This has got to be the most ignorant thread I've ever seen....  Go catch a fish and quit arguing like teenage girls....
sexist remark
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Cornbread on Mar 28, 2019, 02:15 PM
Next thing you know they will be accusing the cattle ranchers of colluding with Russia.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Mar 28, 2019, 04:41 PM
Next thing you know they will be accusing the cattle ranchers of colluding with Russia.
there is no collusion! dasvidaniya.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Elkhnter on Mar 28, 2019, 05:43 PM
I find it funny that the same problems you folks in Montana are having the Wyoming G&F are doing the same thing or have the same mentality. Its all about the "TROUT" and they could give a crap about any other species..

You know what most fisher folks want- To catch something different than a damn trout!! They are trying to eradicate Walleyes from buffalo bill reservoir by Cody Wyoming. Do they not think the lake trout that are in there are not non native as well and trust me there are some 35+ pounders that i'm sure eat plenty of cutthroat trout they are trying to save. I think all western g/f agencies trout is the only thing in the world that matters.. COME ON!!

Ok, enough about that.. Enjoy the great outdoors before someone messing up even more than it already is!!!
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: RuralMT on Mar 29, 2019, 12:26 AM
So far, folks have ridiculed Wenger for his defense of guiding and the wealth it brings into the state.  While it might fall short of the roughly $4 billion (quoting Cornbread here) brought in by the livestock industry, are you willing to denigrate roughly a quarter of that amount?  $790 million is nothing to shake a stick at, and regardless of where it ranks, represents a sizable chunk of our state's revenue.  Ask yourself, are you angry with the presence of the guides or the simple increase in traffic?  I'm not bothering to look up population growth but I think it's safe to say that both Helena and Great Falls have grown substantially in the last 50 years.  Yes, the presence of guides has increased, but has the presence of regular joe-shmoes such as myself (who until a year ago owned a used, leaking, eye-sore of a drift boat) not increased as well?  Not every boat in the armadas floating down the Missouri, Yellowstone, Big Hole, Beaverhead, and Big Horn are guided trips I can assure you. I floated my old beater down them all!

And as far as guides go, I don't think you should judge them in such blanket fashion.  I distinctly remember the moment I quit hating the idea of guides.  I had hoofed it more than a mile upstream from an access point on the upper Bitterroot.  Having arrived at the river before dawn, hiked upstream, and settled in to fish a series of cherry runs/holes I (incorrectly) assumed I'd have the hole to myself for a while.  However, within the first hour I watched 3 guides float by and had to reel up as their clients fished my spot. You can imagine my anger as the fourth boat heads downstream shortly thereafter, but my mood switched instantly as I overheard the guide telling his two clients to reel up, because I'd beaten them to that run.  I'd like to shake that guy's hand; he acknowledged the effort I made to get to that spot and proved to me that at least one of them treated others the way he'd like to be treated.

What's more, someone else attacked guides for making a living off a natural resource.  Really?  Are you willing to apply the same standard to the logging and mining industries, both of which attempt to capitalize on natural resources as well?  I understand the sentiment driving the adjective, but sellout seems a bit harsh. 
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Mar 29, 2019, 07:33 AM
LOL, guides are the true hot spotters.  ;D  Sell the hot spot of the locals for a bill and and a tip.   >:D  Then call themselves true ecologist and conservationist.  ::)

 
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 29, 2019, 09:21 AM
Like to be a fly on the wall of any ranchers house that read this. Hope that $400 + per didn't harm your business too bad. What an f-ing joke.

2017, total value of beef cattle sold was 1.4 billion.   Outfitting had a direct economic impact of 1.8 billion. 

As for all of you vehemently anti guide and thuis anti fellow fisherman (client), will you are not only bitter but also selfish as very quick to criticize a whole group of people, both guides and clients who you do not know nothing about except they are "rich" .  You have exposed yourself as such.   Good luck.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Born Late on Mar 29, 2019, 09:48 AM
So far, folks have ridiculed Wenger for his defense of guiding and the wealth it brings into the state...

What's more, someone else attacked guides for making a living off a natural resource.  Really?  Are you willing to apply the same standard to the logging and mining industries, both of which attempt to capitalize on natural resources as well?   

Let’s be clear. Trout fishing brings wealth into the state. Guides are a product of trout fishing, not vice versa. Local guides admit the day is coming when floating limits will be needed on the Mo. They don’t pretend crowding isn’t an issue. They don’t, however, attempt to forward an agenda by whining about fictitious burdensome costs of permitting and paperwork associated with guiding. Consequently, I have no problem with the majority of guides. Yes, I believe they and miners and loggers should be regulated and pay for their use of public resources. Crazy, huh.

I’m not opposed to guiding. I’m not disputing what appears to be conflicting management with regard to the bass issue in the original post. However, I can’t ignore the recognizable plop of steaming horse apples being presented to generate anti-FWP sentiment.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Cornbread on Mar 29, 2019, 10:14 AM
2017, total value of beef cattle sold was 1.4 billion.   Outfitting had a direct economic impact of 1.8 billion. 

This is a perfect example of the logical fallacy called "False equivalence", it is used to try and win arguments when the actual facts don't support your argument.

I'll explain why for anyone who didn't pick it out right off the bat. These two figures "total value sold" and "direct economic impact" are completely non-equivalent. Also ranching isn't just beef cattle, just like outfitting isn't just fishing. To the first point, direct sales of cattle is just that, a direct sale, the equivalent number would be direct sales of guided fishing trips. Just the price of the trip that is it. So, you can see there are two instances of false equivalence in just that one statement.

If you want to compare equivalent numbers compare the economic impact of all livestock ranching within the state to the economic impact of all outfitting within the state. That is what I did in my original example.

Also cite your sources when you post statistics because anyone can pull numbers out of the air or post generalities that have no peer reviewed and or supporting data.

As far as my personal opinion goes I like the outfitting industry in our state and I am glad it is here. What I don't like are poor arguments that are unsupported by the real facts in the matter at hand. I don't want FWP killing off the walleye I fish for in Noxon so I do have have a dog in the warm water vs trout fight and the only way to win that battle is by presenting factual evidence that accurately supports the cause. Poor arguments and bad data just distract from the real conversation and lead the discussion into devolving into ad hominem attacks and so on where nothing gets solved.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: fridayfish on Mar 29, 2019, 11:37 AM
"You know what most fisher folks want- To catch something different than a damn trout!!"...says the poor wyomian who takes for granted clean cool water flowing out of every nearby drainage. everywhere else in the country the water is slow and brown supporting your beloveds. the grass is always greener on the other side.

its too bad the majority of cattle foraging our public lands in Montana is being sold to china. and our local stores are selling beef from cramped little pens from back east and who no where. I would venture to say Montana beef is the best in the world. they sure look healthy and tasty out in these wide open pastures. and I wouldn't mind stepping around them often and their piles and hounds tongue patches if I knew they were gonna end up in our own stores. I see local beef is for sale at high prices at local markets. does china have to pay those same high prices?I am fairly ignorant about this but this is something I have heard and it is disappointing. lets sell china our Chicago beef and keep the Montana beef in Montana. this should probably be a separate thread for a separate forum though...now what else to complain about?



Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Mar 29, 2019, 11:42 AM
Let’s be clear. Trout fishing brings wealth into the state. Guides are a product of trout fishing, not vice versa. Local guides admit the day is coming when floating limits will be needed on the Mo. They don’t pretend crowding isn’t an issue. They don’t, however, attempt to forward an agenda by whining about fictitious burdensome costs of permitting and paperwork associated with guiding. Consequently, I have no problem with the majority of guides. Yes, I believe they and miners and loggers should be regulated and pay for their use of public resources. Crazy, huh.

I’m not opposed to guiding. I’m not disputing what appears to be conflicting management with regard to the bass issue in the original post. However, I can’t ignore the recognizable plop of steaming horse apples being presented to generate anti-FWP sentiment.

I was not using permitting as an agenda. I was asked what fees were involved.  If you knew me you would know that I don't whine. So please keep it factual.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: PerchPounderMT on Mar 29, 2019, 04:48 PM
What we are opposed to is the impact the trout tards are having on the way the MT f&g is managing our fisheries.Mining and logging money doesnt determine what species of fish we get to have in our lakes and rivers.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: PerchPounderMT on Mar 29, 2019, 05:00 PM
Next thing you know they will be accusing the cattle ranchers of colluding with Russia.
The "new green deal" will fix em.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: oldschoolben on Mar 30, 2019, 04:54 PM
I can only comment on whst its like where I live but here In the bitterroot there are too many guides,  I realize that it brings in money for the local businesses, but it sucks for the local fisherman ,unfortunately  a large majority of the guides only concern is getting a client fish even if it means intruding on your area , I haven't fished the Bitterroot river in years for 2 reasons  the guides and I would rather chace warm water fish
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: PerchPounderMT on Mar 30, 2019, 05:06 PM
I can only comment on whst its like where I live but here In the bitterroot there are too many guides,  I realize that it brings in money for the local businesses, but it sucks for the local fisherman ,unfortunately  a large majority of the guides only concern is getting a client fish even if it means intruding on your area , I haven't fished the Bitterroot river in years for 2 reasons  the guides and I would rather chace warm water fish
Same reason I gave up fly fishing.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Mar 31, 2019, 07:25 AM
Same reason I gave up fly fishing.

I don't fly fish cause the cut bait always flies off when whipping the fishing rod like a bullwhip.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Cornbread on Mar 31, 2019, 09:10 AM
I don't fly fish cause the cut bait always flies off when whipping the fishing rod like a bullwhip.

This cracked me up! When I was in my  mid 20s and going to University, I was fishing a small river in Oregon with my brother and we had only brought fly rods and the trout weren't taking flies so I tied on a bait hook and put a worm and some sinkers on it. Ended up limiting out just plunking that bait rigged fly rod setup into holes along the river.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Mar 31, 2019, 11:38 AM
I remember plunking baits when I was real young.  Dad had bought 5 bamboo poles, one for each of us, that were longer than the head ache rack on his International pickup.  He would tie line on the ends and we would just roll the pole to reel the line up and vice versa.  With a fish on, once we rolled up enough line, we would lift the pole up and the fish would swing in to the bank right at us.

Don't know how many times I caught a cat fish and almost Steve Irwin-d myself.  Good old times they were.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: BoomerFTW on Apr 01, 2019, 10:27 AM
I don't fly fish cause the cut bait always flies off when whipping the fishing rod like a bullwhip.

 ;D ;D ;D This one made me laugh haha
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: coldcreekchris on Apr 04, 2019, 05:56 PM
this thread started out with a legitimate concern..and turned into an ultimate shi? show...how are we gonna manage the fisheries? when there is such a knee jerk...uneducated...RA CIST...and depressing response....it started with a legitimate post about the current state of warm water fisheries..and turned into bashing guides....what a joke....but I think in some ways wenger brought it on to himself....as much as I agree with so much he says...hit a hornets nest..expect to get stung....no matter how solid your position..i grew up with cows...in many ways...ranchers are the ultimate liberal but yet conservationists....su re I know the whole spiel....I don't want cows degrading the slopes and water qualities of riparian zones..of course...but when you brought cows up?....its touchy....when I was young..we had 300 head on 1500 acres.. I know the time has changed...warm water fisheries management...was the issue that you brought up....not cows..or guides....cows and guides should be shared for another post....
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 04, 2019, 06:52 PM
this thread started out with a legitimate concern..and turned into an ultimate shi? show...how are we gonna manage the fisheries? when there is such a knee jerk...uneducated...RA CIST...and depressing response....it started with a legitimate post about the current state of warm water fisheries..and turned into bashing guides....what a joke....but I think in some ways wenger brought it on to himself....as much as I agree with so much he says...hit a hornets nest..expect to get stung....no matter how solid your position..i grew up with cows...in many ways...ranchers are the ultimate liberal but yet conservationists....su re I know the whole spiel....I don't want cows degrading the slopes and water qualities of riparian zones..of course...but when you brought cows up?....its touchy....when I was young..we had 300 head on 1500 acres.. I know the time has changed...warm water fisheries management...was the issue that you brought up....not cows..or guides....cows and guides should be shared for another post....

I missed the "RACIST" part.  Did I miss it somewhere and over read it?  You had the right ratio of cows to acre tho, 5 acres to one head.  As for the guides, both hunting and fishing.  They always try to get some resolution or special reg passed so they and only them and their guests have access to fishing holes on rivers.  Bogus.  That these guides get special access for out of staters...Bogus!  I love and care for this Great State but special interest from all corners are coming in and assisting the removal of the lay man's right's to fish, access, hunt, and have priority over out of staters.  Bogus!

Fishing guides give up the hot spots to anyone who will line their pockets but then ditch on poor BoomFTW for flying a kite with a camera.  Go figure.  Then some guy narrates the genetics of the Bull trout and adaptation to certain environments and how fragile, one degree temp can wipe them out.  Bull Corn and Bogus!  The Bull trout in the Koocanusa run the rivers in Canada and ran the rivers in Montana before Koocanusa was a reservoir.  What happened to the genetics theory there?  It's bloody bogus! 

Anyway, one cow to five acres is a great ratio.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: coldcreekchris on Apr 04, 2019, 07:31 PM
...I worked many years installing million dollar homes with amazing landscapes..money makes money sometimes...so I get it...but... in my opinion guides are not hot spotting..do you really think that the people that guides are bringing in will ever will put extra pressure on the local fisherman? they won't and never will...those type of clients will never go out and fish on their own....just like the carpenter that builds their house..the guides that charge these rich dudes $500 a day...will never see them when the day is done or maybe twice a year...no hotspotting...actually ..guides are more tight lipped than your average yahoo....I suppose in an ideal world it would be nice to have just a couple days a week where they aren't clogging the river up tho...
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: MT204 on Apr 06, 2019, 10:04 AM
http://www.freerangereport.com/big-tourism-kills-traditional-industries-and-now-its-killing-the-environment/
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 06, 2019, 03:23 PM
http://www.freerangereport.com/big-tourism-kills-traditional-industries-and-now-its-killing-the-environment/

Surprisingly, others think the same as I, although the article was written more diplomatically than I would have expressed.  I bookmarked that site.

Thanks MT204! ;D
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: coldcreekchris on Apr 06, 2019, 11:18 PM
the "RASCIST" aspect I was referring to Q is the way some come down with such heavy hatred on trout and the people that enjoy catching them.....
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: coldcreekchris on Apr 07, 2019, 12:07 AM
when people say the reason that they gave up fly fishin..is because rich snooty people ruined it for them ..are turds...don't blame it on the trout.....it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..40 yrs ago..and still the same today...if the haters would ever read a book..read..or re read..the river why...I am currently drowning smelt..the most red kneck way to harvest some pike meat..but I am also casting flies and getting into spring browns,,,,yes...snooty rich trout fisherman are one thing..but to say that's why you don't fly fish anymore? means you are lazy....and have no confidence in your own skill that you need a bucket of worms and a 12 pack of beer to catch a fish....
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Apr 07, 2019, 05:11 AM
when people..(poop pounder) say the reason that they gave up fly fishin..is because rich snooty people ruined it for them ..are turds...don't blame it on the trout.....it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..40 yrs ago..and still the same today...if the haters would ever read a book..read..or re read..the river why...I am currently drowning smelt..the most red kneck way to harvest some pike meat..but I am also casting flies and getting into spring browns,,,,yes...snooty rich trout fisherman are one thing..but to say that's why you don't fly fish anymore? means you are lazy..blaming others for your own shortcomings...and have no confidence in your own skill that you need a bucket of worms and a 12 pack of beer to catch a fish....
it is a hell of allot more relaxing with a bucket of worms and a 12 pack then standing in the water swinging a bamboo stick in the air for hours.anybody can fish on a fly but it takes skill to land a fish after a 12 pack.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 07, 2019, 06:20 AM
it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..

Al Akhbar!  :roflmao:

I'm with hoofer.  I like letting the worms soak in some Corona for a bit, then put them on a hook, then the worm dances the Mexican hat dance on the hook while singing La Cucaracha.  Catches fish.  ;D
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: coldcreekchris on Apr 07, 2019, 09:40 AM
you have a  good point hoofer.....and I never tried the soaking of  worms in corona like Q suggests.. guess there are always two sides to the conversation....
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Apr 07, 2019, 10:19 AM
you have a  good point hoofer.....and I never tried the soaking of  worms in corona like Q suggests.. guess there are always two sides to the conversation....
1 for the worms and 1 or more for me.just be careful which one you drink after bit they all look the same.

Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: MT204 on Apr 07, 2019, 05:39 PM
And to maybe get back on track I've always wondered why for about 5 years I had to buy a "warm water" stamp if I fished certain lakes in western Montana but no one  seems to know where that money went?
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 07, 2019, 06:22 PM
It's the upfront fee for just wanting or thinking to fish for other than trout.  Sorta like a fine.  Does nothing just pocket money.  They have no record of purpose use the way I understand it.  I always wanted to bring that up but was leery of the State Cabal. 
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Icefish MT on Apr 07, 2019, 09:33 PM
The warm water stamp helped expand the warm water species hatchery at fort peck. Passed through the state legislature. Cost as much as 4 dozen worms. Good lord, you people really love to b***h about things but not pay for them.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: BobberdownMT on Apr 07, 2019, 10:07 PM
What do you mean “you people?”
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Apr 08, 2019, 03:12 AM
What do you mean “you people?”
he must mean the people on this forum.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 08, 2019, 07:31 AM
The warm water stamp helped expand the warm water species hatchery at fort peck. Passed through the state legislature. Cost as much as 4 dozen worms. Good lord, you people really love to b***h about things but not pay for them.

Original 87-3-235. Fort Peck multispecies fish hatchery established. https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/87/3/87-3-235.htm
Montana Code Annotated 2017 https://leg.mt.gov/bills/mca/title_0870/chapter_0030/part_0020/section_0350/0870-0030-0020-0350.html

They are doing a great job at Fort Peck Hatchery too. 

I don't think Fort Peck Hatchery is breeding any genetically modified fish like a couple of others here in Montana are doing with the rainbow trout.  The Blue Trout which also produced the Albino Trout.  The thyroid is defunked and or not functioning properly which does not allow for the rainbow pigmentation normally found in the rainbow trout.

Now they stock these genetic mutations in California, Utah and I think for a short time in other places.  Originally the Albino could not spawn but they discovered a way to make that happen.  It is a beautiful fish.  Has several names, yellow trout, palomino trout, white trout and is now considered a rare trout.  This is not a Golden Trout.  Now my question is why would we spend Montana license dollars to aquarium and rear mutated rainbow?

Just asking as I am trying to be a good member of "you people" crowd.  ;D
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: PerchPounderMT on Apr 08, 2019, 08:34 AM
when people say the reason that they gave up fly fishin..is because rich snooty people ruined it for them ..are turds...don't blame it on the trout.....it was magical to see a trout explode on the water..40 yrs ago..and still the same today...if the haters would ever read a book..read..or re read..the river why...I am currently drowning smelt..the most red kneck way to harvest some pike meat..but I am also casting flies and getting into spring browns,,,,yes...snooty rich trout fisherman are one thing..but to say that's why you don't fly fish anymore? means you are lazy....and have no confidence in your own skill that you need a bucket of worms and a 12 pack of beer to catch a fish....
I dont fly fish any more because there are too many pricks that look down their noses at any other kind of fishing and their guides standing shoulder to shoulder on every good hole in the Missouri from Holter Dam to Cascade on any given day.If thats your idea of a good time its the place to be.Lazy?Dragging your gear out on a frozen lake to fish all winter is a hell of a lot more work than parking on the side of a paved road and walking down to the Missouri with the rest of the elitist crowd.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 08, 2019, 09:00 AM
I remember I though I was high class when I finally learn to say "Chartreuse" and stopped saying shart-toss. @)
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: MT204 on Apr 08, 2019, 11:20 AM
The warm water stamp helped expand the warm water species hatchery at fort peck. Passed through the state legislature. Cost as much as 4 dozen worms. Good lord, you people really love to b***h about things but not pay for them.
Thank God I'm not one of "you people"?
I did pay, but I live in Northwest Montana, ya know the place where the only known fish (to FWP) is a Westslope Cutthroat.
I personally like to pay for what I get.
If I fish and have to pay extra to fish a certain lake then "some" of that money should come back to that lake, Right?
The problem is in most cases it did not, or if it did FWP at least in Kalispell doesn't know or will not say.
Maybe FWP used some of that money to take Perch out of Lake Mary Ronan and sent them over to Cascade Lake in Idaho so "they" can have one of the best Perch fisheries around?

Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 08, 2019, 05:26 PM
Thank God I'm not one of "you people"?
I did pay, but I live in Northwest Montana, ya know the place where the only known fish (to FWP) is a Westslope Cutthroat.
I personally like to pay for what I get.
If I fish and have to pay extra to fish a certain lake then "some" of that money should come back to that lake, Right?
The problem is in most cases it did not, or if it did FWP at least in Kalispell doesn't know or will not say.
Maybe FWP used some of that money to take Perch out of Lake Mary Ronan and sent them over to Cascade Lake in Idaho so "they" can have one of the best Perch fisheries around?

Don't mention F_W_P or you will be like me, dodging the red dot.  :o But, it could also be people I know or even relatives pointing the red dot.  I'm not popular with any.  ;) On the bright side, Christmas is cheap, so I got that going for me.  :clap:
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Apr 11, 2019, 11:50 AM
this thread started out with a legitimate concern..and turned into an ultimate shi? show...how are we gonna manage the fisheries? when there is such a knee jerk...uneducated...RA CIST...and depressing response....it started with a legitimate post about the current state of warm water fisheries..and turned into bashing guides....what a joke....but I think in some ways wenger brought it on to himself....as much as I agree with so much he says...hit a hornets nest..expect to get stung....no matter how solid your position..i grew up with cows...in many ways...ranchers are the ultimate liberal but yet conservationists....su re I know the whole spiel....I don't want cows degrading the slopes and water qualities of riparian zones..of course...but when you brought cows up?....its touchy....when I was young..we had 300 head on 1500 acres.. I know the time has changed...warm water fisheries management...was the issue that you brought up....not cows..or guides....cows and guides should be shared for another post....

I simply made a rational argument against some rather stupid and ignorant comments about "rich" people and guides.  I certainly do not feel stung given the source of the attacks.  Those folks are simply Montana's version of  AOC.  Selfish, butt hurt, socially jealous and prone to spout off. Not my fault they choose to be that way much less express it on line.  As I said not one of them has the balls to say those things to guide's face. I would love to be there when one of them did try it. They would be laughed off the ramp.

Have a great summer everyone.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: fridayfish on Apr 12, 2019, 02:14 PM
well Wenger I'm glad you got that off your chest. even though you maybe reading a bit much into other peoples comments. you have your self a good summer too.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: hoofer on Apr 12, 2019, 05:59 PM
wenger even if you are a eye sore like you claim my statements  are not personal. i have nothing against guides . my problem is adjusting to the times,people,etc. i have fished the mo for 40 yrs and cant adjust to the traffic on the river. the fault is mine not the guides.hope you have a great spring, summer, and fall. no hard feelings i hope.
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Quantoson on Apr 14, 2019, 02:55 PM
wenger even if you are a eye sore like you claim my statements  are not personal. i have nothing against guides . my problem is adjusting to the times,people,etc. i have fished the mo for 40 yrs and cant adjust to the traffic on the river. the fault is mine not the guides.hope you have a great spring, summer, and fall. no hard feelings i hope.

Same here.  It's like when I was a kid and my younger or older bother had a bad bruise sore spot.  It's just fun to hit it or press it to get the screaming reaction.  ;D  Not that I'm evil, I just...well...OK, EVIL!  >:D
Title: Re: The war on warm water species continues.
Post by: Wenger on Apr 14, 2019, 03:19 PM
  I appreciate it and am sorry if I came off as rude. I have very strong feelings about the positive effects of guiding on our economy, access for all and reasonable management of our resources. 

Like I said have a great summer. It starts next week for me weather permitting.  If anyone sees an old  lunker of a 28ft Carver boat that we camp in up at Peck say hello...